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Author
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Topic: Upgrading the e-caller
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coyote whacker
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Member # 639
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posted December 20, 2006 11:51 AM
JRB hunter good coyote habitat will always have coyotes in it. Fill in could take from days to weeks, but they move up on the list, those pairs that are adults and been in the system awhile will defend what is there,until removed or natural death.
Howling will let others know of that vacantcy and will move up and fill in.Along with lack of scent markings as well. Some times when the pups are born and antelope fawns are on the ground you get very little responce in howling from coyotes, but they will still be marking the boundrys.
Transient coyotes move about and can live within the "dead" areas of defended territory. GPS studys have shown the size that a nursing pair covers, varies with quailty of habitat, outside influances ie: humans and food and water sources.
Better tracts of habitat can/will support more coyotes and as they are removed those areas fill in, again depending on the density of the coyote population will dictait how long that takes.
Coyote densitys that are thicker will lead to longer migration of transient coyotes, coyote densitys that are thinner as you pointed outmean they don't have to pack up and move far.
Good coyote habitat will always have coyotes in it. The ladder of higher archy. Wiley E pointed out that killing out resident pairs of coyotes that have been established for a few years actually helps fall/winter callers by leaving the void for younger coyotes to move up into these better habitats making for more coyotes and better calling for the fur caller. I agree with him.
I also have areas where we can take out 20+ coyotes and due to a large area of no control will have this drainage system ie: the best habitat with coyotes back in it in a matter of little time.By summer once again there will be 3-5 pairs in this drainage all raising a litter of pups. This area is rough country and 70 sq miles with no road going through it only on the outskirts of this country.
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This is done on my time and my dime. My views may differ from those of others!
Posts: 376 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
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posted December 20, 2006 12:46 PM
"RichC, I agree with the coyote over there and the come in faster part, but I don't think it's resident specific."
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Right again Dennis! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Cal Taylor
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posted December 20, 2006 12:46 PM
Browning, Now you are back to my original point when you start talking about how coyotes react to a male howl as opposed to a female howl. So by that you are leading me to believe that you think when it is a man made howl, the coyote can tell if it's male or female?
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
Posts: 1069 | From: Wyoming | Registered: May 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted December 20, 2006 12:54 PM
"So by that you are leading me to believe that you think when it is a man made howl, the coyote can tell if it's male or female?"
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Leonard,
Could you upgrade Cal to PAKMAN status? I realize that he hasen't completed the 2000 post rule, but it it is clear to me that he certainly deserves the promotion.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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coyote whacker
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posted December 20, 2006 01:02 PM
So by that you are leading me to believe that you think when it is a man made howl, the coyote can tell if it's male or female?
Cal interesting? Do you think tone and pitch of the howl could be construed by the coyote in leading him/her to beleive it is a certain sex making that howl?
Or is the type of howl that makes the differance in a submissives approach or non approach?
Meaning a red dessert howler to me makes a much deeper tone/pitch versus blowing on a smaller higher pitched howler.
Your thoughts?
[ December 20, 2006, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: coyote whacker ]
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This is done on my time and my dime. My views may differ from those of others!
Posts: 376 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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browning204
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posted December 20, 2006 01:09 PM
""Browning, Now you are back to my original point when you start talking about how coyotes react to a male howl as opposed to a female howl. So by that you are leading me to believe that you think when it is a man made howl, the coyote can tell if it's male or female?""
No, I am not talking about man made howls, or at least I wasn't. My question refers to my caller, I have all kinds of howls, some are male and some are female. with all this talk about possibly scaring off coyotes that are lower on the pecking order, I was wondering if I was better off using more female howls. I would think that a female would be less aggressive than a male and possibly because of that, more responders to my calling?
or am I way outta whack with this? I am trying to keep up!
Posts: 167 | From: New Hampshire | Registered: Mar 2006
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Nahuatl
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posted December 20, 2006 01:35 PM
Browning, there are a couple of WT files that sound like a mellow yodel. Those are the good ones. They used to be the CASM.wav and CFC.wav files. When I've used the others that are more barky, they repel many more coyotes than they call.
B-male challenge has been used by a few people I know successfully. I called only one alpha-type with it over a period of several months. Most distress-called dogs run off as soon as you play it as is true with most of the other WT coyote files. When I got off the Martz method of barking at coyotes, and went back to using only the Johnny Stewart distress standards, or the Martz distresses, my hunting success went way up. You might get away with barking at the very beginning, but I'll never play another of Martz's coyotes once a stand is underway again.
[ December 20, 2006, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: Nahuatl ]
Posts: 202 | From: Mount Gleason, Angeles NF | Registered: Sep 2005
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browning204
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posted December 20, 2006 02:56 PM
Nahuatl: I appreciate the response and it makes sense. As I wrote, I am trying to keep up with all this info as some of it is new to me. Thank God I have THO to translate alot of it to me!
I'll tell you what, maybe you guys can help me a bit more by doing this, let me list some of my coyote vocalizations and you guys can tell me what is good to use when and not good to use at other times. Maybe you guys can tell me what is good for night time locating, calling in winter, spring and stuff like that. Can I do that?
edit: I spelled his screen name wrong! sorry.
[ December 20, 2006, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: browning204 ]
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keekee
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posted December 20, 2006 03:15 PM
I really don’t think much on the lines of male or female to me its more of the pitch of the howl and the way we present the howls. I always try and keep my howls on the high pitch side and always taper up and taper the howl off at the end. The short stop to me shows aggression. I just don’t relate male or female to my howling. I also run my howls on the long side I try and stay away from short howls, I seem to drag them out more, I guess. We howl allot, and mix the howling with the distress calling as well. I have tried both barks and no barks, doesn’t seem to matter. I called a pup in last year to howls with barks, you could tell he was real unsure about things and his body language said the same thing. But he never showed him self until I switched over to vocals. It was the 20 min mark on the stand. As soon as I changed over to vocals he came out to the edge and started working down wind.
I got a big ol male coyote that hangs out by the house, he has been there all summer and fall. Its almost a game to him to set just across the creek from the house and howl. He is one of those big ol boys that has a wolf like howl. It’s a game to him in away, to howl and get the dogs all rallied up. I been watching him all summer and fall. There is no doubt he is a male when he howls. But for the most part when coyotes answer me, I don’t even think male or female. I just listen to the howls and give my response.
I called a pair in a couple years ago, and only got the male. It got dark on us so, I packed up and headed out to the truck. Before we got to the truck the female had came back to were I had shot the male and started howling. She howled about every 3-4 min for over a hour, when we left she was still howling. The howl she was doing sounded just like any other lone howl to be. So, I guess, I don’t even think male or female, it’s the aggression in the howls I listen for if I get a vocal response. Most of the time I don’t. In my general calling, I stay on the non aggressive side.
Brent
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Kee's Custom Calls
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Cal Taylor
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posted December 20, 2006 04:05 PM
CW, Sure you can obviously change the pitch and tone of a howl, but can you do it to a point that a coyote puts a gender relation to it? I personally don't think so. If it's higher pitched maybe the coyote just thinks its a juvenile coyote, but is it a juvenile male or female? When a human with a call is making the sound, I don't think they can tell. And I know that denning where you hear a ton of vocalizations that I have had some deep raspy old females that just by ear a guy would sure think are a big old dog, or Rich Cronk with a mega blaster cow horn. There is nothing scientific here and I have no data to back me up, I am just spilling personal thoughts. I may be all wet.
Browning, I didn't know you were refering to e-calls, but there again, is the recording actually what it claims to be? Or someones opinion of what they think it is? I have a pup female coyote here and I'll guarantee if you heard a recording of her here lately you would swear she was a big old gruff dog coyote, but she isn't, she is a yearling female.
Kee, I think you are right on track.
[ December 20, 2006, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: Cal Taylor ]
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
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Jrbhunter
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posted December 20, 2006 04:18 PM
NAHAULT-
"Browning, there are a couple of WT files that sound like a mellow yodel. Those are the good ones."
So now we're up to some distress sounds... a handful of howls and pup distress that are good WT sounds. We've almost created an entire soundlist. By page 18 I suspect we're going to have to buy extra sounds as 32 won't cover it.
NAHAULT-
"Most distress-called dogs run off as soon as you play it as is true with most of the other WT coyote files." When I got off the Martz method of barking at coyotes, and went back to using only the Johnny Stewart distress standards, or the Martz distresses, my hunting success went way up."
Is it just me or is that coyote 101? I don't believe Martz even claims to howl at a coyote after getting him IN with distress... could be wrong, but I don't recall him or anyone else making that assesment. Once a coyote close, coming, commited or in sight a howl of any kind is just too risky- why use it? There are occasions that I howl at coyotes I see- but usually in attempt to work other coyotes we don't see yet... depending on the comfort level of Coyote A and ALWAYS in during the rut phase.
Not saying one is harder than the other, but the type of setups we're doing in the east are very different than Nahaults bread and butter. Commiting a coyote across a 500 acre cornfield or over 3 wooded ridges requires a different approach than getting him to barrel within 15 yards in thick cover. When hunting a stand remotely similar to those AZ and CA stands I don't use a howler... and if I were choked up on a 15 pound coyote I sure wouldn't expect Martz's adult aggression sounds to make a positive impression on him.
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Rich Higgins
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posted December 20, 2006 04:18 PM
quote:
JRB hunter good coyote habitat will always have coyotes in it. Fill in could take from days to weeks, but they move up on the list, those pairs that are adults and been in the system awhile will defend what is there,until removed or natural death.
Mike Jaeger said that when they remove a collared alpha male during their research that he is literally replaced overnight. However, it takes as much as three months for the coyotes to sort out the dominance issue.
quote:
So by that you are leading me to believe that you think when it is a man made howl, the coyote can tell if it's male or female?
Discriminant analysis of spectrographs of coyote vocalizations suggest that howls encode specific information about the howlers age, sex, size, and emotional state.
Cal, any ideas about how I can encode the fact that I am a two year old , 21 lb female that is lonely into my howls?
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Jrbhunter
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posted December 20, 2006 04:22 PM
Higgins, find me a 90 pound, 21 year old, lonely female while you're at it.
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coyote whacker
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Member # 639
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posted December 20, 2006 05:10 PM
Male beta challange is a great summertime call, I have called in a few coyotes with that sound. Timeing is everything with agressive coyote talk I feel.
I had a lamb kill deal where the coyotes would not answer a siren or howl to pinpoint location. I cold called north of these sheep and out of a relative small grassy draw is where these coyotes where living. I used a few different coyote vocals and nothing, I then hit the challange pair sound and they came flying out of that cover like gang busters both barking like crazy. That was the only thing that triggered them. I know before leaving any stand in a denning situation will hit that sound, if no other response.
I also have had them where I used male beta challange and received one pissed answer and then they both come in quit. I know summertime calling and using a dog is far different than fall calling. Your dealing with the highest majority of adult coyotes of any time of the year and it is a different deal.
Early fall you can suck in those pups darn easy with a distress sound for sure.
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This is done on my time and my dime. My views may differ from those of others!
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Cal Taylor
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posted December 20, 2006 05:29 PM
Higgins, If we had the answer to that question we would have the coyote calling world by the ass.
CW, I understand completely that some days one call or another works better than another. I have used some odd ball stuff when nothing else is working while looking for trouble coyotes that weren't answering. But my whole point was that for most of us on the whole, as far as calling using coyote vocalizations, the only real point you (as a caller) can get across to the coyote is that you are either aggressive or non-aggressive. Like the disclaimer before, I may be all wet.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
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coyote whacker
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posted December 20, 2006 05:47 PM
I do see that point. The agressive window is far smaller than bringing in coyotes with non agressive vocals. I feel the key is to be in that "moody" spot reguardless of sounds used.
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This is done on my time and my dime. My views may differ from those of others!
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keekee
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posted December 20, 2006 09:44 PM
"I feel the key is to be in that "moody" spot reguardless of sounds used."
I will agree with that statement. That goes back to what we were talking about in start.
During the denning season, aggresive holws will pull coyotes. During the fall, I feel to use these sounds and put up coyotes, you need to be in the core area or there safety zone. Most caller dont get inside that zone in the fall. And if they do, this could be the reason the aggresive howls work for them then. Just a thought?
I have called areas here that area flat eat up with sign, set up in what looks like the best spot and zip, no resonce, call the same spot two more times, zip, no resonce. Move down into the thick cover or further into the area even though the set up is not as good and inside there core area and pull them right in.....When Rich Higgens was here we called on of these areas....This area was also a teritory boundry as well.
I see that here locating coyotes at night....Sometimes they will cut me off and fire right back. Other times it may take up to 15-20 min for them to get vocal in responce to a yip howl. My thoughts are they relocate to there safety zone or core area were they feel safe before giveing a vocal responce.
CW,
Are you refering to the core area or safety zone when you say moody spot?
Brent
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Nahuatl
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posted December 21, 2006 03:01 AM
Very well. I concede. 5% of Martz's coyote sounds work 5% of the time. I still hope someone else who knows his e-callers, will address my fourth point.
My old WT has an SLA battery in a case that can be protected from cold weather with a heat pack. The new caller has an external battery hanging out in the cold. Browning, how does yours work in cold NH?
The old one used a TOA SC115 speaker. The new one is apparently based on the TOA SC130. The frequency response of the 30 is not as good as the 15, and when I play a battery of test tones through them, neither is as good as the cone speakers on the FoxPro or Minaska callers.
My old caller had a decent sized heat sink on the amp. On the new WT, the amp is built in the speaker's cap and does not. I heard that in hot weather it can get really hot, enough that it affects the caller's memory. Is that true?
My old remote was based on 2-watt FRS radios and reached over a mile. The new one is 0.5 watts, the same as FP and MO, and reaches 500 yards.
My old caller's memory used Compact Flash cards which were easily swapped or upgraded. The new WT does not.
The old caller was fully programmable by the user and played all my sounds, including the Johnny Stewart standards Bill is so fond of. The new one only plays the $33 sounds Bill puts on it.
And what's up with the 24-bit claim by WT? Unless Martz ran out and re-recorded all his sounds with brand new recording equipment, he only resampled his 96 Khz 16-bit masters on a computer. The new FoxPro Mark II sounds are true 192 KHz 24-bit.
So from what I can tell, everything about the new WT hardware, is actually a downgrade??.
Thanks to all for salvaging some decent topics from another otherwise worthless discussion of WT.
[ December 21, 2006, 03:03 AM: Message edited by: Nahuatl ]
Posts: 202 | From: Mount Gleason, Angeles NF | Registered: Sep 2005
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browning204
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posted December 21, 2006 03:22 AM
Honestly, I have had no problem in the heat or cold with mine. only once I have had it not respond to the remote. I switched calling locations and no problem. Then a month or so went by and I tried calling the same area with the same set-up and it happened again. So, I am thinking it was the feild I was calling. It is a big old farm so maybe there is something buried under the ground or something weird like that. Other than that, I have had no problems. I hunt in some pretty thick crap sometimes and it always works ok for me.
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Nahuatl
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posted December 21, 2006 06:12 AM
Thanks for that info Browning. Have you used it any extended periods in the cold?
I looked at this season's hunt logs and recapitulated the animals shot by me or my hunt party and the sounds that were used.
Sceery hand calls (Jackrabbit and squeaker) - 35 coyotes and 1 badger
Recorded sounds:
Byron South's Cottontail - 26 coyotes and 2 gray foxes
Johnny Stewart's Squealing Bird - 16 coyotes and 1 gray fox
Johnny Stewart's Meadowlark - 3 coyotes
Johnny Stewart's Vittles - 9 coyotes
Johnny Stewart's Baby Cottontail or other rabbit - 10 coyotes, 4 badgers, and 3 bobcats
WT Phlegming Hare - 1 coyote and 1 bobcat
WT Goat distress - 1 coyote
That pretty well sums up the season, the sounds I used and the animals we killed and recovered.
Edit: Added in the last page of the log, a trip to NV on Oct 6 and the coyotes Don shot.
I hope some of the Martz boosters will respond in kind. Maybe one of you guys who really likes his sounds and his caller is having a good season and would like to post your own hunt results? - and tell me which of your aggressive or non-aggressive coyote sounds are working for you in real numbers. I'm open to comparisons and would like to see how they match up with my own experiences with my WT.
[ December 22, 2006, 04:12 AM: Message edited by: Nahuatl ]
Posts: 202 | From: Mount Gleason, Angeles NF | Registered: Sep 2005
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TheHuntedOne
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posted December 21, 2006 08:40 AM
That adds up to 80 plus coyotes.
It will take Browning and I...oh... 4 or 5 yers to get any menaingful numbers like that to compare results with. Pin this at the top and we will get back to you sometime in the late witner of 2010 or so. LOL.
By the way, did we mention we hate you ROFL.
Alot. LOL
Al
(That was all said in fun. Please do not take it as mean spiritied)
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browning204
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posted December 21, 2006 09:58 AM
No I can't say that I have used it for long periods of time in the extreme cold but I certainly plan to IF it ever gets cold around here.
THO: my brother in law works for American Airlines, I can fly for free. What do ya say we fly out to Southern Cali. I'll hold him and you hit him!!! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Nahuatl
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posted December 22, 2006 04:10 AM
I'll spot you 50 and give you 3 for every one of those NH monsters. Al and Tim have me convinced some of you face much tougher conditions. All recreational trapping was banned in California a decade ago. Predator hunting is the best I've ever seen.
I got an email from an engineer last night, a regular reader but unwilling to post his observations on the new WT caller. "How is it that WT changed from Li-Ion batteries originally at 14.8 volts to Ni-MH batteries with I'm guessing 11.2 volts and kept their "3 to 5 times louder" line?"
That's a 24% decrease in voltage to the amp and a very good question.
He also said that WT is now offering 32 sounds on the base model and will add 9 more for only $200.
Al - we called and killed #103 on Sunday.
[ December 22, 2006, 05:48 AM: Message edited by: Nahuatl ]
Posts: 202 | From: Mount Gleason, Angeles NF | Registered: Sep 2005
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Rob Love
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posted December 22, 2006 08:34 AM
Nahuatl: Sometimes things are over built. In my opinion on the new WT which I upgraded to, it’s better due to the elimination of bulk and newer remote. The old battery was heavy but it lasted a long time. Now I don’t get to call all day long or even weekly as my business keeps me very busy. The remote is a great improvement as I did experience initiation issues. I did learn to make sure it was working before I set out and make my way back to cover.
I really like the speaker on the WT because it’s not plastic. I know the others work just fine I just prefer metal over plastic in this case.
I do wish I could play an assortment of my own sounds on it though as I have a nefarious streak and neighbors who actually believe the street is haunted by civil war solders.
The remote has a decreased range but who was setting the call 500+ yards away?
I at most set it 60 to 70 yds out and that’s not allways needed.
I wounder if he could have used the same setup as my dog collar. It has a one mile range and small transmitter.
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browning204
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posted December 22, 2006 09:16 AM
I guess that I must be lucky, I have never had problems with it initailizing or anything. Once I went to use it and my battery was dead. It was my fault because when I put it into my back pack I clicked the power on and it sat in my truck for a couple of days. Since then I have learned to pull the plug so it doesn't happen. Now I have a locking power swith on it that requires it to be pulled and switched.
You have to look at this honestly, If you go to another site you will see TONS of threads that say "problems with my new ******" or "can't loud sounds onto my new ******" or remote not responding to my upgraded ******"
And then when I ask the question as to why there are so many problems with the "awesome" piece of equipement, I get the response of "well it is electronic and do have unforseen problems" or "with the number of units sold there is surely gonna be some problems."
IF that is the case, then thats fine. But I have definately heard way more good things than bad about Bill's machine. I think when something does go wrong, for some reason it is amplified. Maybe because he is not an advertiser on these boards.
I have hunted with other E-callers that my buddies own, and I am glad that I made the choice that I did.
Not trying to piss anyone off!!
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