|
Author
|
Topic: sound levels
|
Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
|
posted June 15, 2010 09:54 PM
Tim,
It's not my call, it's one I made... and I thought you didn't like it anymore, and were going to mail it back to me?
So... unless you plan on sending it back, I don't give a rat's ass what you do with it, or the results.
That includes attempts to call uncallable coyotes. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
You'd probably do the test wrong, anyways.
Krusty 
--------------------
Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
fgf4
unknown comic
|
posted June 15, 2010 10:25 PM
I had an idea...
Tim, Please read the manual before you do any more testing or analysing. I think reading the specs on that meter will explain some of the reasons your readings are not accurate.
The frequency range is very limited, 31.5Hz to 8KHz, far less than even a human can hear. Sampling needs to be setup for each scenario as well... as in "A" or "C", fast or slow response.
extech sound meter manual
I realize you were trying to do this to see what sound levels might be in different locations and distances and how that might affect a coyotes response but that meter won't do what you are trying to achieve.
Krusty might have come down on you a little hard but he does know what he's talking about.
Nikonut
Edited for spelling... ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
[ June 15, 2010, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: Nikonut ]
IP: Logged
|
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
|
posted June 15, 2010 11:00 PM
quote:
Tim, Please read the manual before you do any more testing or analysing. I think reading the specs on that meter will explain some of the reasons your readings are not accurate.
The frequency range is very limited, 31.5Hz to 8KHz, far less than even a human can hear. Sampling needs to be setup for each scenario as well... as in "A" or "C", fast or slow response.
extech sound meter manual
I realise you were trying to do this to see what sound levels might be in different locations and distances and how that might affect a coyotes response but that meter won't do what you are trying to achieve.
Nikonut: Yep thats the same manual I have that you posted a link to.
The wife read the manual when I first started testing and ran the meter at the time we where only testing the sounds from the caller and she had used the right settings for this.. So no error there on the caller sound travel.. Ok!
Where I ran into trouble was testing the report of the rifles and was'nt sure about the fast setting to I called the company the ***** the meter, like said before he mentioned I have to use the fast setting for the rifle report but not the caller sounds. This was corrected and by looking at the video you can see that. Ok!
What I'm trying to do is establish a "pattern" for how sounds travel and how loud and get a "rough" idea how far. This has been done correctly and now I have a good idea of where the sound is and where it is'nt. I also wanted to know how much the wind affects the sound and I also found this out. Now I know..
I also know that my 17 Pred. is'nt as loud as the 22-250 ackly and by how much.
I also checked out the WT to see what Bill had for dB and my test came out to what he said it does so I must be doing something right. Right!!
Oh and I went out today and checked the lawn mower and phone to see if the meter was close to what the hand book was saying and this checked out good as well..
If you don't want to know thats fine with me, but now I know. Not looking for exacts but close projection..
Its kinda interesting to run sounds through the meter and compare to the ones that work really well and the sounds that seem to work better on windier days. Now I know..Later...
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
|
posted June 16, 2010 12:27 AM
Since the frequency range of this particular meter is so limited, we might as well consider it "partially deaf."
So... There's a reason open reed calls were loudest at around the middle of the reed, in your tests... because the meter was deaf to any of the rest of the major components of the sound at most other parts of the full range of a call.
While the oscilation of the reed and the way that moves the air is the main way a handcall creates sound, it is not the only sound a call makes.
The reed slapping against the toneboard creates sound (approx. half of the frequency at which the air is caused to vibrate through pressure variations), and the air being forced through the call also does.
Your meter may have been measuring these constituants, not the actual "business section" of the full spectral fingerprint.
For instance, let's look at ultra-sonic calls (like a Tenterfield whistleš, which is not to be confused with a button whistle), or a common dog training whistle.
Slydog talked about calls needing to have an upper threshold of around 15,000 hertz (15Khz), to be effective.
*Though I don't know if this frequency was part of the "business section" either, or the just funny pages.
Common dog whistles operate at between 16Khz and 22Khz, with only those portions below 20Khz audible to the human ear.
The Tenterfield whistles likewise produce frequencies in the higher end and beyond human hearing, but unlike a dog whistle they emit a large amount of audible "noise" not unlike that of the air rushing through an open reed call.
Few sounds are tonally "pure." Even a single note played on a musical instrument (your high C for example) has a multi-faceted spectral fingerprint.
You meter is missing range, as compared to the human ear and that produced by open reed calls, at the upper and lower levels.
So how it hears (or more correctly, doesn't hear) sounds, made by calls, is erroneously affecting your results, especially as these results relate to the hearing of canines.
EVERY SINGLE BIT OF THE RANGE OF A CANINE'S HEARING ABILITY, FALLS OUTSIDE THAT OF YOUR METER!
A coyote connot hear, what your meter can!
And likewise, every bit of a canine's range of hearing is above Sly's magical 15Khz too!
Dogs, and (I am supposing) coyotes too, best hear frequencies of 40Khz on up through about 60Khz... they don't hear what your meter does, and your meter doesn't hear what they do.
*There must be layers of the spectral fingerprints of calls and dog whistles, that aren't accounted for, or they wouldn't be able to hear them at all?
What's THAT do for the validity of your tests, and Sly's? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Here we are, after four pages of blah blah blah, and all we can say with any absoluteness, is the same thing Doppler proved almost 200 years ago... sound produced by a stationary source can be warped by the wind, or warped by objects that are emitting a sound moving through space.
Like Luckyjack stated, we certainly didn't need all this bullshit to get to that point.
šA Tenterfield whistle is used, very briefly, in this video, and you should instantly realize there's something missing in the sound they create.
*Other information you may want to know about the video... 12ga, BB shot, 23 yards, it's Australia.
Krusty
*Edit to fix hyperlink and smilie
[ June 16, 2010, 12:32 AM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
--------------------
Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 977
|
posted June 16, 2010 05:45 AM
I only snore when I am happy or wore out.
LB I remember seeing a slight ripple coming from the top of your tent...take care guys.
[ June 16, 2010, 05:45 AM: Message edited by: Kelly Jackson ]
Posts: 997 | From: Comanche OK | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Possumal
HONORARY CALLS FORUM MODERATOR edit: AND TOKEN LIBERAL
Member # 823
|
posted June 16, 2010 06:38 AM
Tim, maybe the problem is your eyes and not your ears. You say "If you look at the meter the setting is on 80-130 dB. Simple enough!!!". It looks to me like your meter is set 30db to 130db.
--------------------
Al Prather
Foxpro Field Staff
Posts: 781 | From: Nicholasville, Ky. | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
JohnLK
Pro-Staff Great/Michigan Sector
Member # 1978
|
posted June 16, 2010 10:10 AM
quote:
And likewise, every bit of a canine's range of hearing is above Sly's magical 15Khz too!
Dogs, and (I am supposing) coyotes too, best hear frequencies of 40Khz on up through about 60Khz... they don't hear what your meter does, and your meter doesn't hear what they do.
It can be seen that the lowest intensity detected differs between the two studies; I place greater reliance on the Heffner study because it is more current and because he is a widely published and respected audiology researcher. It can also be seen that the greatest sensitivity (i.e. the frequencies that can be detected at the lowest intensities) is in the frequency range of 4-10 kHz. One dog (the Poodle) heard a tone at the low frequency of 40 Hz, but an intensity of 59 dB was required for it to be detected; most of the other dogs didn't respond until the stimulus frequency reached 62.5 Hz. Three dogs (the Poodle, Saint Bernard, and Chihuahua) heard a tone at the highest frequency of 46 kHz, requiring intensities of 64-73 dB. On the other hand, the Poodle heard a 4 kHz tone when it was -4 dB (since dB are logarithmic units based on a ratio of the stimulus intensity compared to a standard intensity, any stimulus smaller than the standard results in a ratio less than one, and the logarithm of a number smaller than one is a negative number; therefore a -4 dB stimulus intensity is a VERY soft one!) and an 8 kHz tone when it was -3.5 dB. There was no systemic relation seen among the four breeds between high frequency hearing sensitivity and head size, body weight, or tympanic membrane area.
Posts: 54 | From: Michigan | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
|
posted June 16, 2010 10:41 AM
So are you saying the sound meter I have cannot pick up the sound made from a Tenterfield whistle??????
And what about a dog whistle?? Is there a freq. it makes at a certain setting that the meter won't pick up?????
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
|
posted June 16, 2010 11:00 AM
Chad, your my hero.
Kelly, we need to have a snore off. We can get TA to sit between our tents all night and rate it with his new toy.
TA, Im glad yo. starte. thi. thre. . Its been ver. enter.
--------------------
Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Locohead
World Famous Smoke Dancer
Member # 15
|
posted June 16, 2010 11:39 AM
I've been accused a time or two also. My snoring got so bad I wasn't breathing I guess. Whenever I slept too long I'd wake up with a moster headache. Dad had the same problem and had to use an oxygen machine. It all got better when he lost a bunch of weight. I've been using the machine and it really works great!
I know I need to lose some weight and be more concerned with my health ...but I need to maintain my figure you know! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
--------------------
I love my critters and chick!!!! :)
Posts: 2219 | From: CO | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 977
|
posted June 16, 2010 01:52 PM
sounds like a plan Andy.
Posts: 997 | From: Comanche OK | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
|
posted June 16, 2010 02:41 PM
John,
I'm not aware of Heffner's study, indeed most of my knowledge of sound and soundwave formation stems around the fluid dynamics of racing engines.
In other words I don't have a deep knowledge base of how sound is perceived, but of how it behaves.
As a predator call maker, I'm interested in learning more about it, though, so I'll have to see if we have Heffner's work in my college's database.
It might even be a subject of study I can gain credit for, as well.
I'll have see what I can come up with, as far as information on the hearing of coyotes (and other wild predators), while I'm at it.
Already, it sounds like the beginnings of one of the many essays I'll have to write.
Thanks.
Tim,
I'm saying that the meter you have cannot pick up the main constituant of the fingerprint of a Tenterfield whistle, the whistling itself (the business section), in fact our ears don't even hear most of that.
Your meter falls far short of the range of human hearing (Nikon already said that), so if it can pick up anything, it's the "noise" of the air rushing through the whistle, not the resonant vibration (that is the whistle).
Krusty
--------------------
Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
|
posted June 16, 2010 03:06 PM
I ran the sound of the whistle that you posted a link to and tested on the meter and also took a dog whistle and blew into it with it turned all the way in and worked my way out to the end and also tested on the meter..
So the noise I'm picking up on both is just air passing through the whistle..
quote:
I'm saying that the meter you have cannot pick up the main constituant of the fingerprint of a Tenterfield whistle, the whistling itself (the business section), in fact our ears don't even hear most of that.
Could it be the human ear is not hearing it cause its not there to begin with..
The meter will pick up a sound as it goes up in scale or freq. (31.5Hz-8KHz)
Does this whistle go past 8KHz???
How far out does this high freq. sound reach???
Does anyone use it for calling coyotes and if so what are the results?????
When the guy in the video blew on the whistle as he blew for that short time the meter was picking up a reading the whole time.. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
How many Hz or KHz is a coyote howl or the high pitched screams of a rabbit????
[ June 16, 2010, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
JohnLK
Pro-Staff Great/Michigan Sector
Member # 1978
|
posted June 16, 2010 05:07 PM
Krusty,I just found that on Ask.com when I put in Frequency Hearing Ranges in Dogs and it was the frist thing that came up.I thought it was kind of interesting is all. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 54 | From: Michigan | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
|
posted June 16, 2010 05:45 PM
Tim dude,
Try to read the words, and follow along...
"Your meter falls far short of the range of human hearing (Nikon already said that), so if it can pick up anything, it's the "noise" of the air rushing through the whistle, not the resonant vibration (that is the whistle).
I have no doubt that there is sound that comes from a Tenterfield whistle, and a dog whistle, that the human ear does not pick up, but if you want to turn that into a conspiracy theory, be my guest.
I don't have Goldwave on this computer, so I can't show you an illustration of the spectral fingerprint of a typical predator call sound, or a dog whistle. Nor am I going to pull numbers out of my ass, and guess the frequency ranges these sounds are comprised of.
Perhaps someone else with Goldwave (or a similar program), can help with that?
*But since these programs are aimed at human listeners, I doubt they'll show frequencies beyond that of our own hearing.
But I think there's little to no doubt, outside of in your mind, that a dog whistle creates sound not heard by the human ear. Ultra-sound exists.
I don't know why the manufacturer (of that meter) would give misleading specs as to what frequencies it can and cannot detect, so I'm gonna take their word for it... therefore, in my opinion, it's completely deaf to frequencies outside it's range of capabilities, period.
Krusty
--------------------
Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
|
posted June 16, 2010 06:18 PM
Tim,
Here ya go... these frequencies start at the limits the manufacturer lists for that meter.
See how many you can hear, and how many the meter can.
My own hearing gave up after 12Khz.
Those of you with kids, see how much higher their hearing can go, to prove to Tim these frequncies do exist (help us out here Loco).
Krusty
[ June 16, 2010, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
--------------------
Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
fgf4
unknown comic
|
posted June 16, 2010 07:44 PM
22.4kHz kills my ears! WOW! That hurt... ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Funny part is I couldn't hear anything from 14 on up until then... LOL
I bet Tim can hear 22.4kHz as well!
Nikonut
IP: Logged
|
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
|
posted June 16, 2010 08:07 PM
Krusty:
I agree with you there are higher frequency sounds that we cannot hear. But the frequency from hand calls or E-caller and youre fox whistle is'nt one of them, most of it canbe heard.
quote:
I don't have Goldwave on this computer, so I can't show you an illustration of the spectral fingerprint of a typical predator call sound,
Is this what you are refering to??
[URL=  [/UR L]]
If you watch the sound bar on the meter it will pick up most if not all of it. The digtal read out is a little slow so it just picks out the loudest but the sound bar catches all of it.. So you need to watch both and listen to the sound being played.. "This is the point I'm trying to get across the meter can read most if not all sounds used for calling Pred." and pick up on the freq. as well..
quote:
See how many you can hear, and how many the meter can.
My own hearing gave up after 12Khz.
Those of you with kids, see how much higher their hearing can go, to prove to Tim these frequncies do exist (help us out here Loco).
I can hear all the frequency's except for the last couple 19.9, 21.1, and 22.4.. I also have a hearing loss..
My wife can hear all but the last one and my son can hear all of them...
The sound meter can also pick up on them but gives a very low sound reading for the last frequency ( at or less than 30 dB )
So from testing these frquency's and the two sounds I posted the meter can pick up these sounds or frequency's so my point has been proven..
[ June 16, 2010, 08:24 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
fgf4
unknown comic
|
posted June 16, 2010 09:09 PM
LOL...
quote:
My wife can hear all but the last one and my son can hear all of them...
The sound meter can also pick up on them but gives a very low sound reading for the last frequency ( at or less than 30 dB )
Funny thing about that last sound Tim... there isn't any sound in that last one! ...GOTCHA! LOL
Nikonut
IP: Logged
|
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
|
posted June 16, 2010 09:43 PM
In the last sound there is a click on and off and thats what the meter picked up on. Like I said it was at 30 dB or less. My son was the only one that thought he heard it but like I said he proably just heard the click on and off also....
Most of the sounds ran around 70'-90's...
[ June 16, 2010, 09:49 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228
|
posted June 17, 2010 05:03 PM
I'm far to lazy to read all of this "stuff".
Tim, were you coloring Easter eggs in one of your earlier posts?
Posts: 646 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted June 17, 2010 05:10 PM
I've read almost all of it. I should be paid by the hour.
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
|
posted June 17, 2010 06:09 PM
Hell I had to write my share, or more correctly Andy's share, for free, too!
It was worth every second of my time.
Krusty
--------------------
Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
|
posted June 17, 2010 06:30 PM
Your on Kelly. Hey, farts dont count. So, we will need the readouts. Any sudden spikes will most likely be a fart, so we will have to work off the average for the night for the championship. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
--------------------
Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
