This is topic Copyright Infringement in forum Calls and Gear forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on May 02, 2005, 07:19 AM:
One of the most burdensome aspects I have had to deal with in being in the calling industry is copyright infringement. It is an ongoing and regular aspect of trying to compete in this business. One of my duties in my work as a consultant to the Johnny Stewart line of calling product for Hunters Specialties is to search the industry for sound piracy and report that to the people that sign my paychecks.
I have found a variety of web sites that are providing “free” sounds for download ,some of which, have some of our sounds on them. I probably have not located all of them and would like to get some help doing that.
I am appealing to those who have downloaded sounds for their Ecallers to help me by providing the urls of the sites they have used. I know that requests raises the hair on the necks of some who would feel that I was trying to deny them the “right” to download “free” sounds for their personal use. I really don’t expect that person to be willing to help.
I am asking those who understand and support the principles of ownership, and fair competition to be willing to help me stop illegal activity in the industry.
I would prefer that those addresses be sent to me in a personal email rather than being posted on this site for obvious reasons. I surely do not want to make the opportunity to “freely” download our sounds more available to those who have no hesitations in doing that.
I would also make this appeal to those who may spot or recognize their long time favorite Johnny Stewart calling sounds on a competitor’s product.
Any help anyone can give me would be greatly appreciated.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 02, 2005, 08:24 AM:
You know what, Gerald? Since HM has some of the most honorable people on the 'net, and you are a good friend to many of us, I bet there might be a few that can help.
Good hearing from you. LB
Posted by Barndog (Member # 255) on May 02, 2005, 05:26 PM:
I can't resist. How do you copyright a sound. Do you use patented tunning fork
"Hey man thats my B flat" hahaha
No serious, good luck with your job, I fully support copyright laws. I do enjoy a few johnny stewart hand calls. Keep up the good work.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 02, 2005, 06:05 PM:
Barndog,
Pretty much the same way you copyright a song. Several years back, a man decied to copy several deer forms and sell copies as his own. The fines were huge and now, he is pretty much chastised by the entire taxidermy community.
Gerald, good luck in your efforts. There are countless mouthcall users out there who got their "training" from a Johnny Stewart tape or record.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on May 02, 2005, 06:25 PM:
Barndog, you are automatically granted a copyright the moment you publish an original work. This applies to all forms of intellectual and artistic property. If you create it, and publish it (in any form), you have a copyright on it. This type of general copyright can be difficult to prove though, and will require proof of damages to collect any type of judgement.
A better route, is the registered copyright. Anyone can get one, for a fee of $30 and the filling out of the proper forms. No lawyer is required. After paying your fee and submitting a sample of your work along with the paperwork, you wait for the U.S. Copyright Office to review it and grant you the registered copyright. It generally doesn't take very long.
With a registered copyright, you need only to show infringement. Damages are statutory, and they are SEVERE. Depending on the type of work, the minimum for a single infringement is $15,000. It is also worth noting, that once you hold a registered copyright, proving infringement is virtually automatic. There is no disputing the copyright itself, once registered.
I've got several copyrighted works myself. Including some animal distress recordings I've done (the most popular sound Foxpro has, is one I recorded - and licensed to them). And I've found infringements on the 'net. So far, all I've had to do is politely ask for the infringements to cease, and they have. I've been aware of the registered copyright process for awhile - it's something that comes up often in my "day job". Just have never gotten around to doing it for my stuff. I think I'm going to though. Be nice to have some real teeth in it, when I find infringements, and need to ask for them to stop. Which, by the way, isn't how it is normally done. Most holders of registered copyright's simply document the infringement and file suit, without even asking for it to stop, since it's like finding free money, with the statutory damages.
- DAA
Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on May 02, 2005, 08:10 PM:
Good to know there are others out there that know the headache of this occurring. Not wishing anything bad on you but if you do something good somebody will try to copy it. Most have stopped when we approach them but a few have tried to be more difficult. That works against them when it gets down to the nut cuttin because I do not make that assertion unless I am sure I am right. The jury will evetually agree with me.
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on May 02, 2005, 09:03 PM:
I think that is one of the biggest downsides to the digital age. How easy it is for people to copy someone else's sounds instead of buying a copy of produced sounds.
Several years ago, the JS website was a great place to go to try out or learn of new sounds.
A few months ago, I searched the web for weeks trying to find some particular coyote and lion vocalizations. Things so obscure that a professional company couldn't afford to market them, for lack of sales.
No luck. Everyone is afraid of having their stuff copied for free, it is no longer feasible to put free samples out for people to try.
Rather than spend $10 a tape for sounds that I already have under a different title, I just do with out.
I miss those days when Gerald felt free to put most of his library on line. I bought a lot of tapes after giving them an online try.
Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on May 03, 2005, 08:27 AM:
Hey good to hear from you Tim. When HS aquired us , that was the first thing I told them to do was stop offerring the snippets on the web site. I did that because of a post from one guy who said he got 63 "free" sounds for his ecaller and had edited them with Goldwave. His bragging killed it for everyone else, plain and simple.
I knew it would happen some day when I decided to make them available. It was a very strong desire on my part to show the diffence in the quality of our sounds when compared to others. If the consumer would just hear the difference they would not buy much of what is on the market. It just eats me alive when I see companies with great packaging and marketing pan off crap to the unsuspecting consumer, many of which were newbies who did not know what was good and what wasn't.
Something just clicked in me that day.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on May 03, 2005, 10:49 AM:
Gerald,
Good luck to ya. I might add years ago, I bought a JS distressed cottin-tail tape. It was/is the most realistic one, I've heard to date. As I've heard the real thing before.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 03, 2005, 12:07 PM:
I remember that post, Gerald. And, I know who you are talking about. Not to make excuses; I don't think he recognized it as stealing?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on May 03, 2005, 07:53 PM:
I agree with you Leonard he probably was just a resourceful guy. It was his action and probably some set of circumstance at the time that made me reverse my attitude about posting audio files. That is all water under the bridge. I have tried to encouraged HS to research and consider making audio files available for a fee. They are still not in that mind set yet.
Hey, you haven't been stopped by any army units cloaked in darkness recently have you? That was one of the most memorable moments for me in my calling experiences. I have had drug runners fly over me while night calling. Many times I have had a string of illegals walk through my calling stand down near the border. I have had snakes and hairy legged spiders crawl over by boots and between my legs but I have never had an M-16 waved in front of my vehicle to stop me. Fun night it was.
[ May 03, 2005, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 03, 2005, 10:25 PM:
Embarassing night in the Max Maxmobile, eh Gerald? Us coming up behind the sentry. But at least we had the satisfaction of explaining that it was he who was a couple miles off the re$ervation. Kind of rediculous, if you think about it; him trying to stop us from leaving! Had he turned around, he might have seen a red light working, here and there. Might have heard a couple shots fired, too?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 04, 2005, 12:35 AM:
So.....If I use a tape that I bought and program it into my FoxPro for my own use, is that considered infringement or a 'grey area'??
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on May 04, 2005, 06:13 AM:
If you buy a sound or a video for personal use, you are allowed to copy it to any other medium as long as you only use if for your personal use.
This is one of the things that make it so hard for manufacturers to keep people from bootlegging their sounds.
In a case I read about last week, a man bought a DVD with the intention of copying it to VHS format for his Mother ( She doesn't have a DVD player ) He got the tape home to find out that it was copy protected. He filed suit and now the newest wave of DVD software locking material has been made illegal for manufacturers to use in some areas.
It's a no win situation for both sides. Manufacturers need to be able to protect what they sell, in order to make a profit so they can continue to supply us. But at the same time, once the consumer has bought the product, he should be able to copy it for his own personal use.
Too many deadbeats and thieves to let the Honor system prevail any longer.
Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on May 04, 2005, 06:25 AM:
No not at all Kokopelli. You doing that for your own use is not a problem at all. That is why we put out CD's with Mp3 files available for that very purpose.
It is those who do it for a profit that have the most legal exposure. Those who give it away free on the internet will have a real problem also. If you give that to a friend or two I probably would chose not to pursue you. If you make it available to all of your hunting club members you would be treading on thin ice.
I always knew that people in the old days would make copies of their cassette tapes for friends but that was small scale stuff and we did not make an issue of it. It is this new technology and accesss to the whole world that really adds a new dimension to the "giving it away" issue. Authors and artists are deprived of income when hundreds or thousands download their works "for free".
This issue has put me at odds with family memebers who have hundreds of songs they have downloaded for "free". Those artists and songwriters get stolen from big time. It is the same with wildlife calling sounds on the internet.
Fortunately for us much of the piracy we encounter actually works against those who try and conceal it. Much of what I find is so changed due to the effort to hide the piracy that I question if the sound will even be effective as a calling sound. When they mix, degrade and filter it to a point that they hope I will not recognize the theft, it many times is a piece of crap at that point and I probably should not make an issue of it and let them slit their own throat...but on principle alone we choose to go after them.
I currently have identified 4 web sites that have sounds of ours available for downloading.
Hey Tim, when are you coming back for another armadillo rodeo?
[ May 04, 2005, 06:30 AM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]
Posted by Barndog (Member # 255) on May 04, 2005, 09:49 AM:
Sorry to be sarcastic, I do understand copyright laws, I have taught a few courses at the university, and have my name on a few papers. Thanks you guys for saying something about copyright laws. It is good to see people understand what is right and wrong.
Education purposes really start to get in the gray area of copyright material. Some laws allow so many copys of certian material for educational purpose. Then there is the definition of educational purpose. Its just better to buy your sounds if your into electronic calling. Senator Hatch from Utah is into punishing those who down load illegally. He would like to create a sowtware program that would destroy the persons computer when breaking the law.
Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on May 04, 2005, 11:24 AM:
Go get'm Orin.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 04, 2005, 12:16 PM:
I'm all for chit chat, but the man needs our help. Let's see what we can do. LB
Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on May 04, 2005, 02:21 PM:
I have already recieved some input which is greatly appreciated. Most of the sites provided I have already got in my sights. I have located 4 sites that we will be contacting. Thanks for the support.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on May 04, 2005, 02:33 PM:
Wish I could help out.But I'm just a po' boy that only can afford hand calls. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Good Luck and GOOD HUNTING C.O
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on May 04, 2005, 05:09 PM:
Word of Warning
If you ever hunt with Gerald, and just "happen" to bump into a couple of his Game Warden Buddies at the Dairy Queen. Use some discretion when they make suggestions, you are probably being set up for some good laughs!
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