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Posted by Rob Love (Member # 723) on December 06, 2006, 09:24 AM:
 
I would just like to say thanks to Bill Martz for his generosity and customer service.
I had a WT caller and decided to upgrade to a new model. I called Bill and being a prior customer there was a good discount for upgrading to the new caller which has many great enhancements over the old model. My favorite things about it are its size, weight, and it's new remote.
Again thanks Bill for making a great product.

Rob Love
 

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Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on December 06, 2006, 09:26 AM:
 
Oh dear...
 

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Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on December 06, 2006, 09:29 AM:
 
Here comes the Fartz patrol.
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on December 06, 2006, 10:14 AM:
 
Yea Ol' Bill what a guy.
 

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Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on December 06, 2006, 10:44 AM:
 
Damn, there were 3 post in 5 minutes Andy.... this has the potential to be an 18 page thread with multiple mental breakdowns.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 06, 2006, 11:09 AM:
 
Hey, easy now. I bought his DVD for $5. And that was supposed to cover the postage. The guy that sold it to me said he needed to be rid of it before it made his other videos stupid, too. I watched it clear thru. I laughed. I cried. I kept waiting to see Ron White and Larry the Cable Guy since they're in all the funniest thing I've seen in years, but they were a no-show. Whole thing made Shrek look like something off the Discovery Channel. (Not really. I'm just funnin'.)

[ December 06, 2006, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
 

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Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on December 06, 2006, 11:36 AM:
 
No kiddin Jason, this ones got blood and guts written all over it.
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on December 06, 2006, 11:46 AM:
 
I enjoy Bill.
He's interesting.
He makes a good product.
Anyone know when his next predator video will be available?
 

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Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on December 06, 2006, 12:41 PM:
 
I haven't talked to him about the new video since August, I intend to speak with him soon and will ask.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 06, 2006, 12:49 PM:
 
I guess there are several folks sending road kill over to that canadian game farm again. The nice elevated and propane heated blind which overlooks the bait pile is being stocked with Bill's favorite food and drink also. I expect a new super dooper silent video to be advertised soon.
 

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Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on December 06, 2006, 02:44 PM:
 
Rich, I never saw the first one being advertised. Where can I find that?
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 06, 2006, 06:38 PM:
 
JrbHunter,
It looks like allpredatorcalls still has it. http://www.king-cart.com/cgi-bin/cart.cgi?store=apc&product_name=wildlife+technologies
 

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Posted by Rob Love (Member # 723) on December 07, 2006, 04:19 AM:
 
Interesting responses but no bloodshed.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 07, 2006, 07:49 AM:
 
No bloodshed, but it is damned difficult for some people to separate Bill Martz, the man, from WT, a good machine.

He has a way of ruffling feathers and seems to enjoy it. This forum is one of the few where he still has access, and the entertainment value overrides the pure informational aspect.

In short, he's welcome here, when he decides to parachute in, but we can still have a necktie party without him, as well.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by browning204 (Member # 821) on December 07, 2006, 06:49 PM:
 
word on the street says that it (the video) will be ready next year.

From what I have heard, it is sposed to be good, not sure if it will be silent or not but it will be good from what I hear from my informants.

Honestly, the WT video really is one of the most informative that I have seen out there.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 08, 2006, 08:22 AM:
 
I have been waiting patiently, expecting some kind of comment in regards to the above post? I do happen to have an opinion about that video, but I will spare our membership. LB
 

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Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on December 08, 2006, 02:16 PM:
 
LB don't hold back I would like your opinion on that video. I thought about it, but Bill has away of turning off people to any product with his name on it.

Do tell what you honestly think of this video.

Besides I'm more than satisfied with my Big Country compaired to my WT that is 6 years old.
 

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Posted by Rob Love (Member # 723) on December 10, 2006, 08:24 AM:
 
I enjoyed his video and I wish he had a better shooter in it.

Lenord: Theres your comment.
 

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Posted by Nahuatl (Member # 708) on December 18, 2006, 07:30 AM:
 
I'm game LB. Pass the gas can. It snowed here a couple days ago and I need the heat.

Browning, you spew your crap here and on PM, talking out your ass using Bill Martz's brain. Repeating Bill Martz's blather proves no more than you're a fool's lackey. When will you start thinking for yourself?

Rob, there are quite a few others out there who've had run-ins of various types with Martz, totally contrary to yours. In my book, WT has the worst customer service in the industry.

Browning, when you repeat one of his fictional cover stories, you're just as full of crap as Bill Martz.

As for the video. Most of us who have seen it, and I have, think it's a well-filmed and recorded production, one of the slickest out there. It shows off some his unique calling sounds too. But in the hunting sequences, it's a silent movie with only Bill's voice to tell you what sounds are being used. The fat guy misses almost all his rifle shots. Bill's "facts" are just his opinions. And he calls coyote hunters "braindead." The weird thing is about the content of the video - in all my experiences, Martz's methods for calling coyotes JUST DON'T WORK. It's total nonsense. Martz's aggressive coyote sounds are PETA sounds recorded for Hollywood, not hunting. Higgins did the best job lampooning Bill's whacked-out coyote theories in his own video. Item by item. It's a hoot! Bill Martz's coyote video is henceforth and forever known here as "Eastern Coyote Bloopers and Other Things That Make Absolutely No Sense."

Browning, think and say what you will about my "little" club, the 40 or so fine hunters and gentleman of PCOC. But our rankest novice shoots more coyotes in a single hunt than you do all season. You and Bill together don't know squat about coyote hunting and couldn't make a beer fart in a whirlwind.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

And when we discuss your lifetime coyote count - CONGATULATIONS ON YOUR SECOND ONE! Post a picture soon!
 

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Posted by TheHuntedOne (Member # 623) on December 18, 2006, 09:34 AM:
 
Serious question here so don't flame me too much. Wait - I'll go put on my abspestos underwear - there - now I'm all set.

But seriously - someone fill me in, as I have not seen the video that you are talking about Gary - Rich's I mean. I have seen Martz's though.

What is it that differes from what is expoused by a lot of coyote men? Seriously? We say howl to create a teritorial response, so does he? I've only been at this for about 5 or 6 years now, and am probably missing something important and want to know. Honestly.

He howls, then he changes to a distress sound. Is that not what we are supposed to do? Because if it itsn't, then I am all screwed up.

As for killing coyotes, Gary, I live in Manchester NH. I have a big old house with lots of room. I am 20 minutes from 30,000 acres of prime forest land, an hour from 750,000 acres of mountains and forest in the White Mountain National Forest and 2 1/2 hours from the 1.500.000 Green Mountain National Forest.

You're welcome to come up and stay for a week, a month, a season and hunt with me any time. I run my own business and will just close up shop for however long you want to hunt. I can gaurantee you that your rankest novice in your club will shoot more coyotes in a single hunt than YOU will in an entire season here. And I don't care what caller you bring, what calls you bring or how you want to do it. The comparison is apples to oranges. A guy around here that takes 30 coyotes in a year is a GOD. One who takes 12 to 15 is a pretty darn good hunter. You can't sit on your deck here and shoot coyotes in your sandles. Besides the fact that your feet would freeze, the neighbors would complain. They're all liberals and hate guns.

Anyway, in all sincerity, please fill me in about what it is on Martz's video that is out of whack. And again, I cannot emphasize enough that this is a SERIOUS question.

And as for his calling sequences on that video being silent, you and I both know what would happen if he had used the audio of those sounds. People would be using goldwave to record them and put them on their e callers. I think Martz was just smart enough to know that and made sure it would not happen. I've heard the WT sounds, and they are by far a lot better than anything I have heard out there so far. JS has a few good sounds, but for the most part, if we are honest, most of the sounds on the market today are not that good. I have not heard the new FoxPro sounds and they are supposed to be excellent so let me put that little disclaimer in there.

Anyway, please fill me in. I got skunked for 8 solid hours last Thursday and was out trying to locate coytoes last night and got zero - nanda - none - responses. I could use some education I guess.

Al
 

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Posted by Nahuatl (Member # 708) on December 18, 2006, 11:53 AM:
 
Al,
I've got to defer to Rich Higgins entirely when it comes to the coyote vocalizations. He really knows his stuff. Besides, plenty of others have got a lot to say about Martz's nonsense. They're just holding fire for the moment.

However, just for the Martz boosters out there, here are some of my experiences with the WT caller and sounds. As you already know I have a big collection of sounds, callers, and hand calls, including a programmable FRS-controlled WT.

After watching the WT video, I thought it was revolutionary. "Studio sounds - expensive loud hi-fi caller - unique coyote vocaliztions" yada yada... Sign me up. I went for it. I used the "aggressive coyote sounds" followed by one distress or another, the way Bill described in his video over a period of several months about two years ago. I called and shot a handful of alpha-types, big mean males or females that came in hackles up and ready for a fight. It was great but rare fun. During those hunts, I called no young dogs and no multiples using his "theories." On five separate instances during that time, I called singles and multiples into long-distance visual range using distress only. Then, using one or the other of WT's coyote sounds, I watched them all turn around 180 and sent them running the other way. According to that video, that wasn't what happens. Those coyotes in the video come back over and over using those sounds. That was the fuel that led me to re-evaluate the WT video. True Al, I don't live in NH, and conditions and coyotes are apparently different here.

Al, all the WT sounds I have, are open source wave files I bought from Martz. I don't need to copy, borrow, steal, transfer, re-sell, fold, spindle, or mutilate anything from Martz's collection - or Goldwave anything from his dumb-assed video. I paid $33 each for Martz's entire coyote collection and for another 30 of his animal distress sounds. It was a lot of money. The wave files I have can be played on an IPOD or FX, or stored as MP3's on a Bandit too. So I've used Martz's sounds many times in a variety of hunts in the western states, CA, OR, NV and AZ over the last two years.

Here's a great recent example of WT "luck" from a couple weeks ago. I still have a couple of Martz's invitation howls and coyote distresses on the Bandit I'm using now. On Bank 1 of my bandit, on the "5" button, there's a WT 10 mo coyote distress, and on the "8" button, directly below it, there's a rodent coaxer. From my hunting log directly, on Friday. Dec 1 of '06, in the mid afternoon, I called a single on a JS cottontail and it hung up at the 100 yard mark, looking at me through the brush. I wanted the coaxer, but hit the button directly above it by mistake, the WT 10 month coyote distress. The coyote ran off like I'd shot at him. That sound should not have run the dog off, but it apparently did, right before my eyes, and NOTHING else changed, crosswind, great camo and cover, no other movement - I was solo. The only thing I did was play a WT pup distress. Gone.

Al, that pretty much sums up my experiences with the WT sounds. I've tried them. I don't like them. I don't use them. And you know about Bill Martz pulling his bait and switch on me, and trying to rip me off already. We had that conversation. So it's true I don't like Martz personally, but I truthfully don't care much for his sounds, his "theories," or his callers either.

There are three WT callers in my club. The other guys in the club told me there are three kinds of luck with the WT - bad, worse, and awful. That's a quote. Their callers won't initialize half the time, won't play, or one of the three sets of batteries is always dead. Of the three that made it into the club, no one still uses theirs. I'm going to sell the one I have and see if I can't get some of my money back. It still has all those expensive sounds on it and I haven't used it all this year.

I also know there are plenty of other guys, like Rich Higgins, who swear by howling and barking etc. I say go for it. It works for them. I'm going to make the pilgrimage to Scottsdale soon, just for some howling lessons Higgins-style to add to my arsenal. However, I'm still skeptical how it compares to distress screaming when it comes to numbers.

At LB's last camp out in AZ, the howling crowd was well represented. There was no formal competition, but there were some excellent hunters there going head-to-head on a relatively level playing field. All of us were pounding the same over-called territory a couple of huge clubs from both Phoenix and Tucson hit regularly, and a few of us were doing it cold without the benefit of previous scouting or prior knowledge of the geograpy. There was also a whole range of callers and equipment including several hi-powered WT's in the crowd. I know both Tom and Steve brought theirs. None the less, I guess I got lucky with my cheap Sceery Jackrabbit and cheaper Johnny Stewart sounds. I hunted solo most of the weekend and did all my own calling and shooting. I came away from the weekend with 8 coyotes and 3 foxes, nearly triple(?) the next shooter. I didn't use a WT, any "studio" sounds, or a single coyote noise, but I saw a lot of game.

Now I don't think I'd do too well in NH either. It'd be pretty much out of my element. I don't have the clothes. Brrrr. You face some tough conditions there Al and you get my respect, especially for braving the weather, but also for taking a few of those big eastern coyotes I've heard so much about. But, if I did come out there to hunt, I'd still hunt the way I do now, until someone proves to me there's a better way. Here in the west, in the areas I hunt, I suspect if I were only using a WT and the Martz method of coyote broadcasting this season, I'd only have a tenth as many coyotes as I do today. 82 and counting. Martz, on the other hand, does not hunt. And that's why I think Martz, his sounds, and his video are based on his own dumb opinions and greed, and not on any successful sound hunting philosophy (lol).

Al, maybe you'd benefit from a pilgrimage to Scottsdale too, if you're going to keep howling in your repetoire. It seems to me everyone learns a thing or two when Higgins gets going.

Edit: I wanted to add - I really like Martz's Phlegming Hare sound - really. I got another big bobcat with it Friday night. It makes my teeth hurt, but that one is a great sound.

[ December 18, 2006, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: Nahuatl ]
 

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Posted by TheHuntedOne (Member # 623) on December 18, 2006, 12:50 PM:
 
The very first time I watched the Martz video, I said to Browning204 that Martz was targeting the alpha coyotes, and that by doing that, you were leaving the rest of the pack behind. I told him that you would never achieve any kind of numbers doing that here in NH as there are way too few family groups and they are spread out too much. The numbers just would not support that kind of approach. So that pretty much addresses my question, and again, it was a serious one. I wasn't screwing with you. I feel a bit validated LOL.

As for the sound thing, you might have those sounds, bought and paid for, but there are a lot of new guys who would not even blink at copying the sounds and using them if they could. I don't blame Martz for not putting them on the video. Not much difference than what Fox Pro does, having a propriatoary file that can only be played on a Fox Pro.

On the M1 Bandit that I have, I only have 20 sounds. All but 4 of them are from JS. The only Minaska sounds I kept on the caller were the kitten, fawn, and the lone and challange howls.

I don't do much howling here. Maybe one out of 4 stands. Mostly because I don't know enough about it. Maybe a trip to Mr. H's place would do me good, but for now, I like to stick with what works.

As for how you would do here in NH, well, I suspect you would do about the same as the rest of us. You would walk alot, freeze your arse off, get skunked more often than not, and after warming up by the fire at night with a good drink, be ready to do it all over again the next day. Not because the hunting is so good, but because there are coyotes out there and we are coyote hunters. It's what we do.

I do appreciate your response. Just keep in mind if you would, that Browning204 is you a few years ago, with his new caller and all the excitement and anticipation that brings. We all have to start somewhere but he has a lot going for him. He is a damn fine woodsman, and I think if he keeps at it, in another 20 years by the time he is my age, he will be Mr. Coyote Hunter here in NH. I kind of envy him. I wish I had got started 20 years ago, but I'll make the most of what I have left, you can count on that LOL.

Al

[ December 18, 2006, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: TheHuntedOne ]
 

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Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on December 18, 2006, 03:44 PM:
 
No Bill M fan here, but those coyote agressive sounds have there place when calling agressive tendant type coyotes. I call coyotes for ADC in spring and summer and I use 90% coyote vocals and the majority are of the agressive type. I do like some of his coyote sounds and they work well. The challange pair, the coyote pup distress, the male beta challange are great sounds when used with adult coyotes.

I called with a good caller just last week one stand was a loan coyote that came to some howling and distress sounds hung up and made the shot. The other set was an area that had been called quit a bit in the past, coyote howls and pup distress did the job, but it was an adult male coyote.

I wouldn't use these sounds much in the fall or early winter unless one knows for sure that your working adult coyotes and some sounds like challange pair I wouldn't use outside of denning season, but pup in distress and loan female howls work durring the winter and will be more benefical as the winter progresses on into mating season and beyond.

Summer calling coyote vocals are tops, early fall and numbers calling some young coyote howls and distress seems to work well in areas where they hear the rabbitt blues quite a bit.

The WT caller itself is not a favorite, I like my minaska much better. Way more dependable and user friendly. Also customer service with Steve head and shoulders above the WT gang. Bill's ego is as big as they come and insulting customers or good callers is uncalled for, I think he uses it as a marketing tool in a starnge way, as some other guy has made his living doing the same .

My .02 worth.
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on December 18, 2006, 05:12 PM:
 
coyote whacker, who do you do ADC work for?

Gary is a friend of mine and I agree with and support most of what he has to say. I don't know Gary's history with browning 204. I do know that when Cal, Vic and I were being dogpiled at PM last July, Browning 204 wrote a post in support of us and earned an attempt to have him suspended or banned by Guess. I appreciate that.

Al....LOL
I'm sure that Bill Martz is very knowledgeable about many things other than coyotes, which is a good thing since Bill cannot tell a female coyote from a male. Seriously. Bill makes many incorrect statements about coyote behavior on the video which indicate that his opinions have developed from observing the coyotes that he had been baiting/feeding on a bait station for the two years prior to the video. Coyote behavior on carrion is very agonistic and very different from their behavior in most other contexts. Contrary to Bill's opinion coyotes do not "fight for a living", and coyotes will not "die without territory", nor is "sound quality is the most important tool of the successful coyote caller", and contrary to Bill's opinion coyotes CAN multi-task in as much as they CAN "see, smell and hear at the same time.", nor will coyotes kill a weak or sick member of their family unit because "coyotes have only two attitudes pissed off and super pissed off".
One of my favorites, "coyote callers are brain dead".
My favorite clip shows a mature male moving at an angle past the camera, the male stops and sniffs a grass bunch as Bill says" the coyote smells seagull feathers so he marks the area with urine to claim territory because coyotes don't have supermarkets." The male hikes his leg, tail straight out and urinates on the bunch, and then scratch kicks..
Bill then says "As you will see, this coyotes claim to the area doesn't mean much to the next coyote that comes along."
He then shows another mature coyote approach just as the previous one had done, stops, investigates the grass bunch then hikes it's leg, urinates on the bunch, and scratch kicks.
Bill says "As you can see the supermarket just changed ownership."
If Bill knew and understood coyotes well enough to produce a tutorial you would think that he could recognize the alpha FEMALE as she marked over her mates mark.
The video is replete with these types of errors which makes it extremely entertaining. I do enjoy the video.
Al, why don't you watch the video tonite, pay close attention to the clip I just described, you will find it at the beginning of the video in the "Coyote Behavior" segment, and then post back here as to why the second coyote is a dominant FEMALE. Bill may appreciate your "tutorial".
 

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Posted by TheHuntedOne (Member # 623) on December 18, 2006, 05:52 PM:
 
Crap. A pop quiz.

I hate it when that happens.

I'll get back to you

Al
 

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Posted by Nahuatl (Member # 708) on December 18, 2006, 07:20 PM:
 
Al, I knew you were being serious, and not baiting, like I have been doing to Browning. You're right there in NH. I know Browning can think for himself and isn't an unintelligent man. Maybe you can speed him through his Martz phase? Out of the WT ether and on to coyote enlightenment? Martz doesn't deserve Browning's loyalty.

And Al, unlike PM, you can actually say ass, and shit, and piss on LB's board just for the emphasis. You just can say ****** or *********** .

Edit: those are verboten Arizona geography terms.

[ December 18, 2006, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: Nahuatl ]
 

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Posted by TheHuntedOne (Member # 623) on December 19, 2006, 08:02 AM:
 
OK, I watched the video - and you owe me -

But anyway, the only thing I picked up was that the first coyote looked back, and seemed to bark and the second coyote didn't lift it's leg as high and it held it's tail different.

But to be honest with you Rich, the only way I know how to tell usually is to go look after I shoot them.

So what is the tip off? Embarassing question maybe, but if I knew everything I wouldn't be hanging around reading these boards.

As for the rest of it, I never bought into much of what he was saying. I'm certainly not brain dead, nor do I belive that sound quality is the key or coyotes would have never been called on old 78 rpm records.

I just brush past that stuff and try to pick up what I can when I watch these things.

You have to underdstand that here in the east, especially in NH, hunting coyotes is not a big time thing. Basically, no one around here knows crap about it, and we are all just trying to figure it out on our own. And everytime someone asks about eastern coyote hunting it usually starts up the old East vs West thing and the original point of the discussion gets comepletely lost or you end up getting "sound" advice from someone who has maybe shot one or two coytoes in their life and wants to tell you how it is because they are now an expert.

Anyway, tip me off on how to tell the difference and what I should look for, and I will take the razzing of "brain dead" eastern coyote hunter, but in the end, I will have learned something that you can be sure I will use in the field.

Thanks

Al

[ December 19, 2006, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: TheHuntedOne ]
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on December 19, 2006, 09:08 AM:
 
Al, you needn't be defensive about your Eastern coyotes. Some of those animals are different from the western subs. Genetics certainly influence behavior and there can be no doubt that some of those NH coyotes are carrying wolf genes. Lots of factors influence the coyotes behavior and reaction to the call. No one that has not called in your area is an expert on your coyotes.

Concerning the two coyotes in Bill's video, I found it interesting that he did not know the difference and subsequently built a false scenario around the two animals. That occurred many times in that video. The fact is, and anyone who spends much time observing these animals will know this, males lift their leg to the side and a little to the rear to direct their stream on the object to be marked. Females, because their peepee is located several inches posterior to the males, lift their leg to the side and forward to direct their stream. If a male did that he would pee all over his leg. Many people think, obviously Bill included, that the females have to squat to tinkle. Not so.
The video showed a dominant male approach a scent station and mark it. A dominant female later approached it and marked it. The raised tails exhibit confidence and dominance as does the kick scratching. There was no changing of "ownership of the supermarket."
 

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Posted by TheHuntedOne (Member # 623) on December 19, 2006, 10:46 AM:
 
Thank You Rich,

That is an interesting tid bit of information that I did not know. Now I do. But there are probably a lot of guys just like me who don't know also.

When it comes to his theory of aggressive howls, and teritorial responses, I am wodering if a lower coyote population like we have here would cause teritory size to be increased. And if the teritory is larger, then the dominant pair could be miles away or on the other side of a ridge when you play the aggressive vocalizations. That being the case, they would not hear them or if they did, it might only serve to put them on alert due to the distance? If the teritory is large, will they accept intrusions into it depending on where those intrusions occur? Will they expend the energy to defend their turf even if they have to cover a lot of ground to do it?

On the flip side, if the doninant pair does not hear the aggressive vovalizations, I would not think that the younger coyotes would respond out of fear?

If all that is true, then one must either play dominant vocalizations at a place that is close enough to them to trigger an aggresive teritorial response.

So, unless one knows EXACTLY where they are bedded or where they are denned up, and can get close enough to that area without alerting them, only then will agressive sounds work well, and then again, only on a select pair of coyotes..

Martz seems to address this by saying to play the aggressive vocalizations at full volume, but again, if the sounds are deemed to be too far away to be a threat, I don't think it is a valid theory.

Anyway, that's been my take on it. I have always seemed to have good luck with simple distress sounds. If there is a coyote around, and it is cold with snow on the ground, it will respond, and I would think the chances of pulling in any member of the family group would be much better, as well as nomads that are in the genreral ares also.

Any thoughts?

Al

[ December 19, 2006, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: TheHuntedOne ]
 

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Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on December 19, 2006, 01:00 PM:
 
You can know where the coyotes are by locating your coyotes before you even attempt to call them. Makes a differance in success rate for sure, unless your stumbling over coyotes.

Coyote territory changes with coyote densitys, they have a core area and they know there limits when it comes to defending the territory. Get inside of that boundry on a pair of coyotes and agressive coyote talk will bring them in looking to move out the invaders. Sounds added with the realism of a decoy dog and you can see some knock down drag outs.

I'm talking summertime coyotes as there home range shrinks and not much time for wonderlust, they go to food and water and take care of those pups, until the pups can be really mobil and spend there time with those pups and protecting them. That is why when working coyotes on depredation you need to locate those coyotes if at all possible and then make your move calling.

Trapping coyotes or calling them in the fall is much different than trying to get the coyotes doing damage in the spring/summer, as you need to set up on fresh sign and the coyote den to be effective and get the killing stopped as quick as one can. No better sound than an agressive male/female coyote and pup in distress those coyotes will come a high majority of the time. Be inside that defended range and your going to have some mighty pissed off coyotes come looking for ya.Alot in a real hurry and can be very vocal on approach.

Late winter I use more female howls as mating season can be very hit and miss with the distress sounds and I stay away from the common used distress sounds as those coyotes pairing up, if in heavy pressured areas have lived through the dying rabbitt blues a time or two.

I have found full volume as the best choice for coyote vocals, I can't explain why but I feel those coyotes get all riled up and the full volume creates that added incentive for a butt kicking to be given out by those coyotes. I have not seen where full volume coyote talk has caused one bit of problems when dealing with adult coyotes. No matter how close I have been to them. In areas of more space sound gets eaten up fast and full volume will get out there. I also feel that if you don't use full volume it gives the impression in areas of sound deflection that those other coyotes are to far off to cause major concerns for the coyotes your trying to get to respond.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 19, 2006, 03:41 PM:
 
Rich,

Al raises an interesting point and one that might possibly explain a bit of the distinction between working eastern coyotes versus those out west.

In a given coyote population, which factor most readily influences territory size: coyote density, or resource (prey)availability?

Out west, where coyote are much more plentiful, interaction is much more common, as is the need for spatial distribution between packs and individuals. In the east, coyote numbers are much less, thus, encounters are probably fewer. Don't fail to factor in the availability of prey. Western coyotes rely more on rodents and leporids, whereas eastern coyotes eat rats and bunnies, but also exhibit some pack hunting strategies in pursuit of larger prey, i.e., deer.

Doesn't it stand to reason that, at some point, a territory can be so large that it becomes overtaxing for a pack to defend effectively? And, if this is so, wouldn't it stand to reason that at that point, territorial size would be determined more by prey availability rather than coyote densities and a need for "space"?

In my region, calling them in this year is very difficult due to the absence of cold weather and an over abundance of prey and food. We've been seeing a lot of scat, but it's all black from the coyotes feasting on gut piles and unrecovered deer carcasses left over from deer season. Prey sounds just make them laugh.

On the other hand, coyote numbers have been stable to increasing the past few years, it's cooler this week and I anticipate that within the next few weeks, knowing how to howl effectively is going to give us a definite edge over the local competition.

Either way, we're looking for some of those big boys that raise and stick back, but won't pass up a few raisers that stick her forward either. I'm going to have to break out that DVD and check that clip out myself.
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on December 19, 2006, 04:41 PM:
 
Lance, The larger the pack the smaller the home range?

Dennis
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 19, 2006, 05:44 PM:
 
You lost me Dennis. It's pretty much a given that a pack isn't going to grow infinitely. Therefore, at some point, the pack will have reached its limit, say 10-12 maximum. The limiter to territorial size would be how much real estate can a pack of 10-12 individuals adequately and effectively defend. And more importantly, how does this change between eastern and western regions? How is this factored into their behavior and how can it be best exploited in hunting?
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on December 19, 2006, 06:02 PM:
 
Coyote behavior is always described as "varied and adaptable". It is human nature to attempt to standardize or pigeonhole a subject in order to understand it better. We can lose sight of the "varied and adaptable" part very quickly.

Not all resident coyotes establish and maintain exclusive territory. They may defend only the area in the immediate vicinity of the den during whelping season.

Ia a Minnesota study only the females established exclusive territory and excluded only other females. The males freely traveled overlapping homeranges.
Coyotes will readily abandon territory and move elsewhere if conditions change for the worse.
Territories are generally established to defend limited resources. If those resources cease to exist so does the need for that territory. Conversely, if resources are unlimited, there is no need to establish and defend territory.

Even in stable unexploited populations, such as the NFR, coyote boundaries changed each year.

In Az. coyotes abandoned their territories in the desert during the past drought and moved into agricultural and residentuial areas. Warden Wegge told me that he counted 6 active dens along a one mile stretch of a canal north of Phx a few years ago. That's about one den every 300 yards.
They are varied and adaptable.

I cannot tell you how your coyotes establish, maintain, and utilize their territories in your areas, or even if they do at all.

Joe Melton told me that coyotes in Az. will cross other territories to feed at carrion, mesquite patches and vinyards unmolested. They travel in straight lines to and from the feeding areas to honor the territories and the residents do not confront them.
Varied and adaptable.

Regarding the use of aggressive and/or territorial vocalizations, I believe that they can be very effective for the selective removal of the breeding pair. That should be of interest only to ADC workers willing to kill nursing mothers and pups and of little benefit to recreational callers. Those vocalizations will intimidate and repel transients and nomads and ,depending on the location of the broadcasts relative to defended areas, may cause betas to reposition within their areas rather than approach. Those coyotes can comprise as much as 70-80% of the total populations at certain times of the year. Why issue sounds that may elicit an approach from only 10-20% of the population and repel the rest? There are vocalizations that will elicit a territorial response from ALL residents, even young pups, without intimidating any of them. Makes sense to rely on those rather than an extremely limited aggressive sound.
 

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Posted by browning204 (Member # 821) on December 19, 2006, 06:19 PM:
 
""There are vocalizations that will elicit a territorial response from ALL residents, even young pups, without intimidating any of them. Makes sense to rely on those rather than an extremely limited aggressive sound.""

What are those vocalizations??
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 19, 2006, 06:31 PM:
 
"There are vocalizations that will elicit a territorial response from ALL residents, even young pups, without intimidating any of them. Makes sense to rely on those rather than an extremely limited aggressive sound."
-----------------------------
Rich Higgins is correct. One of those sounds is what I call a "lonesome" howl. Some folks give it a different label, but it is the same howl actually. The second one is-----I ain't gonna tell ya right now. I haven't reached full PAKMAN status yet.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 19, 2006, 06:52 PM:
 
Here in Mn. the female coyotes home range can be pretty small, 2-3 miles. The female shares her terr. with another female or one of her pups from the litter. The male's territory is a little larger, anywhere from 3-8 miles. I'm not sure about the summer month's but dureing the winter the coyotes have what we call a gathering once aweek. This gathering is the coyotes that came from the same family group, they get together and see how everyone is doing and who is missing. This is the only time i have seen coyotes move through others territory to get to the gathering place. When out hunting once in a while we will stumble across these coyotes that have gathered. There willbe anywhere from 3 or more coyotes together. The most i have seen at one time is six, and all were taken except one. Out west were i go calling there is an area that the coyotes do the same thing once a week, so i know it don't just happen here..
When there use to be alot of fox around they would do the same but only once a year and that would take place right before mateing season. When you walked into this area you could tell that you were in the right spot,the musky smell was really strong. The most fox i have seen was eight at one time when this gathering took place..

[ December 19, 2006, 07:00 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 19, 2006, 07:06 PM:
 
A female invatation howl is a good one and a lost mate howl also. Also a lone howl from a pup and companion howl.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 19, 2006, 07:11 PM:
 
Thanks, Rich. And, Rich. The benefits of a simple lone howl (aka assembly howl, female invitation howl, whatever) outweigh the use of challenge or threat barks, yet they still are offered up by some callers as the key to calling lots of coyotes. There is a lot of wisdom, a lot of experience, and a veritable treasure trove of information in that one reply for the reader if he or she just takes the time to see it.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 19, 2006, 07:18 PM:
 
Tim, for my benefit, please describe the difference between the female invitation howl, the lost mate howl, and the run of the mill lone howl. I've heard a lot of howls, from callers and coyotes alike, and everyone seems to have a different rendition of each. Even the coyotes seem to never offer anything close to what others have offered in their own reproductions. In fact, many of the so-called howls used for calling by hunters are sounds I've never personally heard in the field from the real deal, while I've heard coyotes sound off using sounds that didn't conform to anything we've classified as one howl versus another.

To me, the specific sound I offer (lone howl vs female invitation howl) isn't nearly as important as is being aware of the qualities of the sounds I make (long and high-pitched). I've got one particular sound I use that fills the bill for me. It's long in duration, high-pitched, extremely mournful and non-aggressive in nature (fades in at the start, fades out at the end), and lacks any type of herald barks. I've had more coyotes (of all ages and both genders) respond to it than any other vocalization but it doesn't fit the description of anything anyone has offerred for public consumption thus far.

[ December 19, 2006, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
 

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Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on December 19, 2006, 07:24 PM:
 
Lost Puppy howles, Puppy howls and Lonehowls are non aggesive howls, and they all seem to work well about any time of the year, east or west.

But howls can be given a aggresive sound with out even knowing you have done it.

Not very often do I use aggesive howls to try and call coyotes, if I do its in the denning season or if I get in a pissing match with a coyote that I can not do anything with.

Good info here guys keep going!

Brent

[ December 19, 2006, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: keekee ]
 

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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on December 19, 2006, 08:45 PM:
 
This is a hell of a good thread, with some really great food for thought.

I've spent most of my life outside, and have yet to hear most of the howls that are being sold by big name call makers.

Still some really great ideas being passed here.

But Cdog, I've got to ask

quote:

---

Western coyotes rely more on rodents and leporids, whereas eastern coyotes eat rats and bunnies

---

quote:

---

Not all resident coyotes establish and maintain exclusive territory. They may defend only the area in the immediate vicinity of the den during whelping season.

<snip>

Territories are generally established to defend limited resources. If those resources cease to exist so does the need for that territory. Conversely, if resources are unlimited, there is no need to establish and defend territory.

<snip>

I cannot tell you how your coyotes establish, maintain, and utilize their territories in your areas, or even if they do at all .

---

quote:

---

There are vocalizations that will elicit a territorial response from ALL residents, even young pups, without intimidating any of them. Makes sense to rely on those rather than an extremely limited aggressive sound.

---

But will these work if there is no defined terirory? Would they respond out of curiosity?

And, last, how does a coyote population not having a defined teritory affect attempts at locating resident populations at night?

Thanks again

Al
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 19, 2006, 09:56 PM:
 
Cdog911; Its hard for me to describe the different vocals but i will try.
Female invatation; yip-yip-awoooo, wavering to a higher pitch. its close to a lone howl.
Companion call; it starts out in the middle and goes up with a very high pitch.
Lost mate: starting at the bottom and stopping in the middle. Like Arrr and stoping quickly.
I got these sounds from Bill Austin years ago and i did'nt use them very much untill a few years ago, most of the coyotes i was trying to call heard it all except some of these howls that i have in my collection.
A few years back i called in a pair of coyotes and i shot one of them, i came back later for the second one and i started with a lone howl. The coyote came in to about 3-400 yards but stayed behind a hill and howled back at me. I heard this howl before from listening to my recordings, so i switched to the same howl which was the lost mate howl. I howled a few times then sat there and waited after 5-10 minutes here he came around the hill for a look see, and i was the last thing he saw before the lights went out.
I don't use these type of howls all the time, but they do work when needed.
The companion call i will use with a rabbit in distress, either before or after.
I know that some callers like to give them the kitchen sink, and if i lived where they lived with the high number of coyotes i would proably do the same thing. But where i do my calling the numbers are not that high and this is also the testing grounds for alot of new callers that make the yearly trip to try and call in some coyotes.
By the time i get there most of them have heard all the sounds from the fox-pro. So when i go into a area i start with the basics to see what i have to work with, and that would be the rabbit and some lone howls. If the coyotes are responding like they should then i stick with it. When i get to a area were they don't want to play then i go to one of my ace cards, if it don't work i come back a day later and try something else. they know something is up if they don't come in and if i rattle off all the sounds i have they will not respond to a call for a very long time... I don't have all the answers, sometimes i get lucky and the coyote tells me what it is, by the howls or by body movements.
Just for shits and giggles i have been going out everyday here at home working on these pressured coyotes and still no luck, but i'm going to keep at it till it snows. Maybe something will click...........
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 20, 2006, 04:37 AM:
 
Thnaks, TA,

Tim.. you left out the pertinent part of that sentence where I made the point that eastern coyotes eat rats and bunnies, too, but that they also rely more on large animals like deer. Sure, western coyotes will eat venison, but often only as carrion or as fawns. I've seen documentation of instances where eastern coyotes worked as a pack to wrangle and bring down an adult deer which was a precursor to many wondering out loud if the behavior might not be engrained as a result of their wolf DNA.
 

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Posted by TheHuntedOne (Member # 623) on December 20, 2006, 05:18 AM:
 
Most of the deer predation here comes during the dead of winter when the deer are yarded up and their energy is low. The coyotes can really wreak havoc on them at these times. We often snow shoe into areas above the deer yards and take up prone positions in the snow and snipe coyotes as they come and go. Years when there is little snow, the coyotes do not have as great an impact on the deer. I think they go after them in the deer yards because they know the deer are very vunerable then, and easy to bring down.

One thing I have seen them do, and I think they have learned this, is to chase a deer onto the ice of a lake or pond. Soon as the deer hit the ice, they fall and usually dislocate their hips. I often see dead deer on the ice of remote ponds that are half eaten.

But I really do not think that the coyotes eat as many deer as people think. When people find a deer carcass in the woods, half eaten by coyotes, the coyote gets the blame. More than likly the deer was wounded by a hunter and either week or it died and was found by coyotes.

Of course they take a toll on the fawns in the spring, but mostly they eat rabbits, birds, chiomonks, rodents and other small animals.

Only once have I seen a pack take down a deer, and it was in March when we still had about 3 feet of snow on the ground in the woods. I watched 6 coyotes just tear up a deer while I was crow hunting.

Right now, they seem to be feeding heavily on snow shoe hares, which turn white this time of year. Since we have not had any snow, it must suck to be a white critter in a brown forest. But almost all of the scatt we are seeing has a lot of white fur in it. Only thing in these woods that is white is the belly of a deer, which are still way too healty to be bothered much by the coyotes and the snow shoe hares.

The differences I see in the east vs west debate is that here in the east, there seems to be an abundance of natural food, including Muffy's next door cat. Soon as one comes up missing, she is off to the Shelter in her Privia getting a new one They coyotes have an endless source of food.

And two, the vast amount of area that they have to live in without competition for that food.

Most people have this idea that the east if just one big city after another, but there are a lot of deep woods and "mountains" here to support coyote populations.

It will be interesting to see in the next 10 years as the coyote population grows how much the teritorial behavior modifies itself here.

Our coyote population has doubled in the last 5 or 6 years, if it doubles again, and then once more in 10 years, I think you will see the east vs west debate be less and less of an issue among hunters. Coyotes are coyotes in my opinion.

Al
 

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Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on December 20, 2006, 05:26 AM:
 

quote:

---

I'm not sure about the summer month's but dureing the winter the coyotes have what we call a gathering once aweek. This gathering is the coyotes that came from the same family group, they get together and see how everyone is doing and who is missing.

---

quote:

---

You can't even always tell what sex a coyote is when it howls.

---

That would be my contention. It's like trying to picture what a person looks like when your talking on the phone.

Rich, Do you think that some of the "old timers", Austin and pre-Austin, style howlers used or tried all these "new" calling and howling sequences? It would make sense to me that they also, at one time or another, tried just about every imaginable named or unnamed howl before concluding to KISS.

Dennis
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 20, 2006, 06:16 AM:
 
"I rarely voice an opinion on howling, there are too many experts around here. But I have a theory that will work for most of you guys and that is that there are only two types of howls that concern us as callers. Aggressive and Non- aggressive. Thats it. Beyond that there is nothing that really concerns callers."
-------------------------------------
The only thing that I would like to add to the above quote is this---------Leave the screaming rabbit at home. Use a distress sound that coyotes haven't heard so many times that they can hum the tune from memory.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 20, 2006, 06:31 AM:
 
Greenside,
Most folks don't realize that some of these pioneers were trying to make some gas money by selling calls and instruction tapes. We are also talking about information from history. Those old boys may well have thought they had it all down pat, and they just may have thought that they were selling absolute truth. A lot of time has passed since then, and we need to understand the need to take what we read in books and internet posts as a grain of salt. Listed to guys who are out there right now and have paid their dues. Guys who we KNOW are very good at calling coyotes. I will give you two examples. Cal Taylor and Scott (Wiley E) Huber. Rich Higgins is also very good. Mr. Higgins is still wrapped up in the coyote language stuff a bit too much, but he is learning.
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on December 20, 2006, 06:42 AM:
 
Al, you will probably be reading this before too long, but it is significant to this thread.

"Over the course of fifteen thousand years, coyotes have evolved a complex and varied social structure, which requires a complex and varied communication system. Dr Phillip Lehner stated that
"the coyotes ability to adapt to a changing environment is ultimately a consequence of it's complex behavior, especially it's manifold communication system."

Even if coyotes do not establish and maintain exclusive territory they still remain very social and vocal animals. They will still assemble on a regular basis and perform their greeting ceremonies, which is important because it aids in strengthing bonds and reaffirming status within the family unit. They will still perform the group yip-howl, which has many functions including the announcement of the presence of a resident pack which aids in spatial distribution, encourages dispersal and even has an effect on reproductive rate.
This is significant to callers that wish to locate with vocalizations.
They will still howl to maintain contact. They will still howl to assemble. They will still howl for the sheer joy of it.
AND they will still be compelled to investigate a strange coyote that vocalizes in their home ranges.
It is important to know that coyote's howls are individually specific, meaning that coyotes recognize the voices of known coyotes, which means that you cannot fool a coyote into believing that you are a "Lost mate" or any other family member. The "lost mate howl", "rally howl", "interrogatory howl' "companion howl", "lonesome howl" are all variations of lone howls and as such have value to us as announcing the presence of a strange coyote that we hope will be investigated by all coyotes within hearing.
Bearing that in mind, what affect do you believe Bill Martz's technique of broadcasting aggressive vocalizations at LOUD volume will have on these social groups?
Bearing all of this in mind, can you begin to see how simple it all becomes?
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on December 20, 2006, 06:44 AM:
 
Rich, When you hunted with Wiley do you recall him doing any puppy howls?

Dennis

[ December 20, 2006, 06:44 AM: Message edited by: Greenside ]
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on December 20, 2006, 07:10 AM:
 
Dennis, there are two Richs here and both have hunted with Scott.
Cal, "I rarely voice an opinion on howling, there are too many experts around here."
I disagree with you. I don't believe there are any "experts" here. Some of us are just more confused than others. Besides the subject makes for good discussion which is the purpose of this board.
Before the crap begins again,
DISCLAIMER. I am not an expert. Of all of the biologists researching coyote behavior and vocalizations that I personally know, none of them are experts. Everyone is simply confused on different levels.
And at a certain level one becomes aware that Bill Martz is braindead.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 20, 2006, 07:50 AM:
 
Andy L.: Back in the late 70's and early 80's i hunted mostly fox and then the coyotes moved in. Alot of the locals chased after the coyotes and i continued to hunt fox cause they where bringing more money than the coyotes. Through the years the fox numbers started to decrease and the coyotes where on an increase. I started to target the coyotes but was'nt haveing much luck. We would go into and area after the coyotes and when we thought we had them figured out they would disapper on us. So one day when this happened i took a snowmobile and got on the tracks that where comeing out of a section. I followed the tracks for four miles, dureing this time the coyotes that made the tracks did not stop to hunt. They went in a straight path west until they got to the area were they planned to meet other members of the same family. When i got to this area there were five places on a fence line where five coyotes bedded down together. From studying the tracks, one coyote came in from the north and one from the south and two from the east, and one from the west..
From looking at the tracks i could see that the coyotes all went back in the same direction that they came from. The pair of tracks i followed in went back to the east but they took a path a little farther south. From the high vantage point that they were on they proably saw me comeing and dispersed back to there terr.. The pair followed the lay of the land to get around me and get back to where they came from. Anyway i followed the tracks back to where they came from. I took the snowmobile back to town and got ahold of the guys and we went back into the section with the pair of coyotes, they were there this time and we got both of them. After a bit of time i was able to figure out the other three and we were able to get them as well. Someone once said that you can't call tracks, which is true. But if you stop and take the time to figure them out, they will tell you were they have been and where they are going.
 

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Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on December 20, 2006, 07:59 AM:
 
Rich Higgins:
Regarding the use of aggressive and/or territorial vocalizations.... Those vocalizations will intimidate and repel transients and nomads and ,depending on the location of the broadcasts relative to defended areas, may cause betas to reposition within their areas rather than approach. Those coyotes can comprise as much as 70-80% of the total populations at certain times of the year. Why issue sounds that may elicit an approach from only 10-20% of the population and repel the rest?

Rich, with all due respect, I have killed many many transient coyotes with aggressive vocalizations here in Indiana. I've killed enough in what I consider transient zones that I refuse to believe we could've killed more with passive sounds... if that makes sense?

I use fewer aggressive sounds now than I used too, but in January and February I do not see the negative impact others do. Aggressive sounds may not call EVERY coyote that passive sounds will, but they will call coyotes that passive sounds won't. (not talking age or higherarchy) It's a numbers game, and sometimes that drifting rif-raf male responds better to aggression than passiveness. Especially pre and post rut. In my experience.

A lot of other information in this thread has been skewed by hatred for Bill Martz, to the point it's misleading readers. Nahault has spent over a year ripping off sounds, pilfering units, mending his credit line, crying on internet forums, flaming martz and still has callers jammed packed with WT sounds.... now he says he doesn't like them? They won't call coyotes? Talk about someone incredible and braindead- I don't care if the guy shoots 5000 coyotes a year he either doesn't know coyotes and calls or he's just talking out his ass in attempt to attack Bill.

Like I said 14 days ago, this thread has potential!
 

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Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on December 20, 2006, 08:15 AM:
 
Yeah, its got potential. Slower gettin started than anticipated, but gettin there.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 20, 2006, 08:30 AM:
 
Rich H. hit the nail on the head when he stated that coyotes of the same family group can reconize each others voice ( howl). When i use the female invatation i get both male and female coyotes to respond, what this howl does is it trips two of the seven triggers. Which are curiosity and territoral.
When the lost mate call is used i'm trying to trip the curiosity trigger as well. And with the Companion call its territoral and again curiosity.
What i'm trying to do is just give them something different.
from talking to other callers they are haveing good luck with the hurt pup distress at the moument. I think after awhile this sound well become so so in some areas and then the caller will have to look for something else..
I think calling is very simular to trapping if you want to get good numbers you need to mix it up some. There are certain sounds or sets that well produce most of the time, but after awhile you have to give them something different...
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 20, 2006, 08:38 AM:
 
"It is important to know that coyote's howls are individually specific, meaning that coyotes recognize the voices of known coyotes, which means that you cannot fool a coyote into believing that you are a "Lost mate" or any other family member. The "lost mate howl", "rally howl", "interrogatory howl' "companion howl", "lonesome howl" are all variations of lone howls and as such have value to us as announcing the presence of a strange coyote that we hope will be investigated by all coyotes within hearing."
-----------------
Rich Higgins,
Very well said and is very, very true.

See, I TOLD you guys that Higgins was good.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 20, 2006, 08:42 AM:
 
Greenside,
Nope, I didn't hear Scott use any puppy howls but that don't necessarily mean that puppy howls are bad to use, and also doesn't prove that Scott never uses puppy howls once in awhile.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 20, 2006, 08:50 AM:
 
"I have killed many many transient coyotes with aggressive vocalizations here in Indiana. I've killed enough in what I consider transient zones that I refuse to believe we could've killed more with passive sounds... if that makes sense?

I use fewer aggressive sounds now than I used too, but in January and February I do not see the negative impact others do. Aggressive sounds may not call EVERY coyote that passive sounds will, but they will call coyotes that passive sounds won't. (not talking age or higherarchy) It's a numbers game, and sometimes that drifting rif-raf male responds better to aggression than passiveness. Especially pre and post rut. In my experience."
-----------------
JRB,
There is no doubt in my mind that there is a time and place for agressive coyote talk. From the time that pups are dropped in the spring until mid august or so is one. From now thru february is another. I am scratching my head right now though, and I just have to ask you a question. How can you tell by looking at a coyote that said coyote is in fact a transient?
 

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Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on December 20, 2006, 08:54 AM:
 
Higgins, the expert comment wasn't meant as a flame to anyone, I just personally think alot of callers put too much into defining 17 different howls as it pertains to recreational calling . For someone interested in studying coyote vocalizations the study of it is fine but I think it has little or no bearing on calling. If a guy takes a piece of plastic that makes noise and then proceeds to tell me he can make a different sound for a lost pup, lost mate, female invitation etc. etc. and the coyotes can tell the difference I would be inclined to believe that he has been overfed. The caller may think he can tell the difference, but coyotes, IMHO, just think it has the possibility of being a strange coyote hanging around and they want to see who the new guy or gal is. I will agree that coyote do recognize howls of coyotes that they are familiar with. But back to my theory if you will. There are two types of howls that concern us as callers, aggressive and non-aggressive. They each have a place and time that they work. Agree or disagree?

edit for Rich Cronk.....
I thought you were an expert, the transients have the backpacks of course. I thought everyone knew that!

[ December 20, 2006, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: Cal Taylor ]
 

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Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on December 20, 2006, 09:28 AM:
 
Rich the residency, range, transience and concentration of coyotes is determined by scouting-locating and dead coyotes. Dead coyotes not just by number; but age, frequency and consistancy.

I've been wanting to discuss these specific "Transient Zones" in my area with Higgins privately for some time but cannot find the documentation and research papers that support the theory. I know Higgins has read them as I've seen him cite them elsewhere- about radio collared coyotes and transience in the East... I misplaced them in a move this fall and don't want to get into a deep discussion paraphrasing documented fact.

I'll admit I stay on stand longer than most when I use those vocals... opening the floodgates of "They just wandered in" debate. I believe they are responding (perhaps after reacting negatively?) to the aggressive sounds because the same stand/same length will not produce under passive sound.

My experience in this field of aggressive sounds and transient coyotes is very limited. With only a few years of strong vocals and two years of transient study (and exploitation) to my credit I am still an open book to say the least. I do, however, feel confident there is a very strong key there. Damn near a coveted SILVER BULLET to some degree.

I hunt and discuss hunting with approximately 200 Indiana predator callers thorughout the year... I feel it's safe to say I killed more coyotes in 7 days last year than MOST callers in my state killed all season long. Was it the Wildlife Technologies? Was it a population boom? Exploitation of transience concentration? Scouting- luck- effort? I have my theories... but discussions like this offer up a lot of clues to the puzzle. I'm actually laying low on those areas until I better understand why I'm succesful there, I can't help but think "big picture" sometimes.
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on December 20, 2006, 09:37 AM:
 
Cal, I do agree with you, in fact I agree with everything you said in this last post. I do believe that some vcalizations are more effctive than others so I believe that the aggressive and passive catagories can be expounded upon.
BTW, I didn't believe that you where flaming me or anyone else here. My comments were directed toward Bill who should be making a strafing run through here soon.
JRB, Bill generates passion on any board that he posts on. I don't know of but one individual that "hates" Bill. Some are intimidated by him, some are certainly perplexed by him, but most are entertained by him. I always enjoy his participation. BTW, I take no offense when your opinion differs from mine. If you have experienced a different status quo in your area than others have in theirs then it is no great surprise considering that we are talking about "the most vocal of all North American mammals," especially one so "varied and adaptable.
However it will take a great deal of evidence to change my opinion that aggressive howls will repel more coyotes than they attract, regardless of the biological season.
 

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Posted by TheHuntedOne (Member # 623) on December 20, 2006, 09:43 AM:
 
JRB -

Don't Transient Zones mena that you have coyote populations with defined teritories?

How would your theory work in an area where coyotes may not have defined teritories? And what would you look for to define a Transient Zone? How would one identify it as opposed to anyother patch of wood land?

Al
 

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Posted by Nahuatl (Member # 708) on December 20, 2006, 09:46 AM:
 
You're almost right about two things Jason, I've kept a few of the Martz puppy whines and the non-aggressive invitation howls on my callers, but I actually paid $33 for each of those, and I certainly don't like Martz. The rest you're just plain wrong about.

I think even you have got to admit that ever since Martz put the bogus thousand-dollar charge on my Visa and then tried to wreck my credit, I've done a decent job deflecting novices toward other brands and blasting his "customer disservice." Just so we're clear Jason, I have a WT with no factory support, the warranty is void, and Bill telling lies he gets Browning to repeat, all because I told him I played Johnny Stewart sounds on my WT.

edit: Back to the title of the thread just for the hell of it, now that the video got it's due reward. Pass the gas can again. Exactly what was upgraded on the new WT? As far as I can tell, the remote range was cut from a mile+ to 500 yards. The new TOA 30 has poorer frequency response than the old 10 or 15. The new lithium battery is external and much harder to keep warm in the winter. And the damn thing won't play any of my Johnny Stewart sounds. My old FRS - SLA - fully programmable WT may be a brick to carry, but it is much better than the new one by a mile+.

For sale or trade - One hundred sound WT caller. Comes with most of the Martz coyote sounds and a whole bunch of distress and aggravation noises from mouse to moose, bear to hare, and cat to rat. Fully programmable/downloadable/uploadable and Windows compatable via removable/upgradable FAT16 formatted Compact Flash memory card. Two quasi-legal DTMF-FRS 1 mile+ midland radio remote transmitters and one receiver. Brand new sealed lead acid 5AH battery w/recharger. 14 watt amp broadcasts 32KHz monoaural wave files, easily edited from any sound source, through a TOA SC115 speaker. It works right now. No warranty, no manufacturer support, no additional sounds available from WT unless you suck up real hard to Bill.

[ December 20, 2006, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: Nahuatl ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 20, 2006, 09:58 AM:
 
"I thought you were an expert, the transients have the backpacks of course. I thought everyone knew that!"
------------------------------
Cal,
Nope, no expert yet. I have already stated in an earlier post that I have yet to achieve full PAKMAN status. Back packs huh? Up until now I thought the coyotes with back packs were just on their way to school. Thanks for the tip. Transients that what they are, transients.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 20, 2006, 10:05 AM:
 
Jrbhunter,
You may be on to something there with your transient coyotes theory. Keep us informed of your findings as you continue your efforts in that area. I have to tell you however, the fact that you hunt hard and call more than your fellow hunters is probably a large factor as to why you kill more coyotes than they do.
 

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Posted by browning204 (Member # 821) on December 20, 2006, 10:12 AM:
 
so, all this talk about aggressive and non-aggressive howls is great but next question.

Will coyotes male and female react different to both aggressive and non howls from male and female?

Will a coyote male be more likely to respond to a howl from a male or female and vise versa?
 

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Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on December 20, 2006, 10:29 AM:
 
THO, transience istelf is a very broad topic. It's an absolute fact of life for coyotes but some regions are easier to exploit than others. Some coyotes have to pack those backpacks and hike a goooooood ways, coyotes in other regions may just knock next door and take up shop within a couple mile of their birthplace.

As far as finding those zones, I kinda have the cart before the horse. After we started smacking coyotes repeatedly in areas I got curious... after trapping them extensively and catching 3-4-5 coyotes a day in the same limited acreage I got REAL curious.

I found the coyotes- then related it back to transience and developed two zones within 50 mile of my house. Looking at the topography you see restrictions on long range travel... rivers, hwys, interstates. It isn't blatantly obvious- so I can't just go google earth my state and find more (I TRIED)... but after the evidence I've gathered it does fit in these situations.

Like I said, this isn't tried and true, but it continues to develop. I rarely see male/female pairs in these places... usually a group is 2-5 juvenile males. It's not uncommon to kill adults, sometimes very old dogs there. I've seen every color phase except black (Damn curse) in these places. Packs are rarely heard vocalizing in the core area- only on the fringes of this "highway" and there they are VERY vocal.

In five years I hope to understand more about this situation. This year I'm working on a theory that these transients are like ducks. They are somewhere down 'the line' right now staged up, hunting the place out, and when food vanishes or things freeze up they're gonna slide this direction. Could warm weather, bumper crops or increased pressure change the urgency of that movement? Shit- there are too many variables to this... I'm going deer hunting.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 20, 2006, 10:30 AM:
 
"Won't the coyotes (if they are there) hear that distress and possibly think "it's just another dieing critter" because in this area the coyote knows it can hunt and move around on HIS terms because of the abundance of the food are always there?

Now, if I add howls to the mix, again any time of year, although the territory issue may not be as big out here, Won't that just add some "excitement" to the scenerio that I am trying to present?"
----------------------
Browning,
You are on the right track alright. The howl tells resident coyotes that there is a coyote over there. Adding a prey distress after your howl will often cause resident coyotes to come in faster. Coyotes are ornery critters.
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on December 20, 2006, 11:10 AM:
 
The howl tells resident coyotes that there is a coyote over there. Adding a prey distress after your howl will often cause resident coyotes to come in faster.

RichC, I agree with the coyote over there and the come in faster part, but I don't think it's resident specific.

Dennis
 

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Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on December 20, 2006, 11:51 AM:
 
JRB hunter good coyote habitat will always have coyotes in it. Fill in could take from days to weeks, but they move up on the list, those pairs that are adults and been in the system awhile will defend what is there,until removed or natural death.

Howling will let others know of that vacantcy and will move up and fill in.Along with lack of scent markings as well. Some times when the pups are born and antelope fawns are on the ground you get very little responce in howling from coyotes, but they will still be marking the boundrys.

Transient coyotes move about and can live within the "dead" areas of defended territory. GPS studys have shown the size that a nursing pair covers, varies with quailty of habitat, outside influances ie: humans and food and water sources.

Better tracts of habitat can/will support more coyotes and as they are removed those areas fill in, again depending on the density of the coyote population will dictait how long that takes.

Coyote densitys that are thicker will lead to longer migration of transient coyotes, coyote densitys that are thinner as you pointed outmean they don't have to pack up and move far.

Good coyote habitat will always have coyotes in it. The ladder of higher archy. Wiley E pointed out that killing out resident pairs of coyotes that have been established for a few years actually helps fall/winter callers by leaving the void for younger coyotes to move up into these better habitats making for more coyotes and better calling for the fur caller. I agree with him.

I also have areas where we can take out 20+ coyotes and due to a large area of no control will have this drainage system ie: the best habitat with coyotes back in it in a matter of little time.By summer once again there will be 3-5 pairs in this drainage all raising a litter of pups. This area is rough country and 70 sq miles with no road going through it only on the outskirts of this country.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 20, 2006, 12:46 PM:
 
"RichC, I agree with the coyote over there and the come in faster part, but I don't think it's resident specific."
------------------------
Right again Dennis!
 

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Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on December 20, 2006, 12:46 PM:
 
Browning, Now you are back to my original point when you start talking about how coyotes react to a male howl as opposed to a female howl. So by that you are leading me to believe that you think when it is a man made howl, the coyote can tell if it's male or female?
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 20, 2006, 12:54 PM:
 
"So by that you are leading me to believe that you think when it is a man made howl, the coyote can tell if it's male or female?"
--------------------------------
Leonard,
Could you upgrade Cal to PAKMAN status? I realize that he hasen't completed the 2000 post rule, but it it is clear to me that he certainly deserves the promotion.
 

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Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on December 20, 2006, 01:02 PM:
 
So by that you are leading me to believe that you think when it is a man made howl, the coyote can tell if it's male or female?

Cal interesting? Do you think tone and pitch of the howl could be construed by the coyote in leading him/her to beleive it is a certain sex making that howl?

Or is the type of howl that makes the differance in a submissives approach or non approach?

Meaning a red dessert howler to me makes a much deeper tone/pitch versus blowing on a smaller higher pitched howler.

Your thoughts?

[ December 20, 2006, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: coyote whacker ]
 

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Posted by browning204 (Member # 821) on December 20, 2006, 01:09 PM:
 
""Browning, Now you are back to my original point when you start talking about how coyotes react to a male howl as opposed to a female howl. So by that you are leading me to believe that you think when it is a man made howl, the coyote can tell if it's male or female?""

No, I am not talking about man made howls, or at least I wasn't. My question refers to my caller, I have all kinds of howls, some are male and some are female. with all this talk about possibly scaring off coyotes that are lower on the pecking order, I was wondering if I was better off using more female howls. I would think that a female would be less aggressive than a male and possibly because of that, more responders to my calling?

or am I way outta whack with this? I am trying to keep up!
 

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Posted by Nahuatl (Member # 708) on December 20, 2006, 01:35 PM:
 
Browning, there are a couple of WT files that sound like a mellow yodel. Those are the good ones. They used to be the CASM.wav and CFC.wav files. When I've used the others that are more barky, they repel many more coyotes than they call.

B-male challenge has been used by a few people I know successfully. I called only one alpha-type with it over a period of several months. Most distress-called dogs run off as soon as you play it as is true with most of the other WT coyote files. When I got off the Martz method of barking at coyotes, and went back to using only the Johnny Stewart distress standards, or the Martz distresses, my hunting success went way up. You might get away with barking at the very beginning, but I'll never play another of Martz's coyotes once a stand is underway again.

[ December 20, 2006, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: Nahuatl ]
 

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Posted by browning204 (Member # 821) on December 20, 2006, 02:56 PM:
 
Nahuatl: I appreciate the response and it makes sense. As I wrote, I am trying to keep up with all this info as some of it is new to me. Thank God I have THO to translate alot of it to me!

I'll tell you what, maybe you guys can help me a bit more by doing this, let me list some of my coyote vocalizations and you guys can tell me what is good to use when and not good to use at other times. Maybe you guys can tell me what is good for night time locating, calling in winter, spring and stuff like that. Can I do that?

edit: I spelled his screen name wrong! sorry.

[ December 20, 2006, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: browning204 ]
 

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Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on December 20, 2006, 03:15 PM:
 
I really don’t think much on the lines of male or female to me its more of the pitch of the howl and the way we present the howls. I always try and keep my howls on the high pitch side and always taper up and taper the howl off at the end. The short stop to me shows aggression. I just don’t relate male or female to my howling. I also run my howls on the long side I try and stay away from short howls, I seem to drag them out more, I guess. We howl allot, and mix the howling with the distress calling as well. I have tried both barks and no barks, doesn’t seem to matter. I called a pup in last year to howls with barks, you could tell he was real unsure about things and his body language said the same thing. But he never showed him self until I switched over to vocals. It was the 20 min mark on the stand. As soon as I changed over to vocals he came out to the edge and started working down wind.

I got a big ol male coyote that hangs out by the house, he has been there all summer and fall. Its almost a game to him to set just across the creek from the house and howl. He is one of those big ol boys that has a wolf like howl. It’s a game to him in away, to howl and get the dogs all rallied up. I been watching him all summer and fall. There is no doubt he is a male when he howls. But for the most part when coyotes answer me, I don’t even think male or female. I just listen to the howls and give my response.

I called a pair in a couple years ago, and only got the male. It got dark on us so, I packed up and headed out to the truck. Before we got to the truck the female had came back to were I had shot the male and started howling. She howled about every 3-4 min for over a hour, when we left she was still howling. The howl she was doing sounded just like any other lone howl to be. So, I guess, I don’t even think male or female, it’s the aggression in the howls I listen for if I get a vocal response. Most of the time I don’t. In my general calling, I stay on the non aggressive side.

Brent
 

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Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on December 20, 2006, 04:05 PM:
 
CW, Sure you can obviously change the pitch and tone of a howl, but can you do it to a point that a coyote puts a gender relation to it? I personally don't think so. If it's higher pitched maybe the coyote just thinks its a juvenile coyote, but is it a juvenile male or female? When a human with a call is making the sound, I don't think they can tell. And I know that denning where you hear a ton of vocalizations that I have had some deep raspy old females that just by ear a guy would sure think are a big old dog, or Rich Cronk with a mega blaster cow horn. There is nothing scientific here and I have no data to back me up, I am just spilling personal thoughts. I may be all wet.

Browning, I didn't know you were refering to e-calls, but there again, is the recording actually what it claims to be? Or someones opinion of what they think it is? I have a pup female coyote here and I'll guarantee if you heard a recording of her here lately you would swear she was a big old gruff dog coyote, but she isn't, she is a yearling female.

Kee, I think you are right on track.

[ December 20, 2006, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: Cal Taylor ]
 

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Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on December 20, 2006, 04:18 PM:
 
NAHAULT-
"Browning, there are a couple of WT files that sound like a mellow yodel. Those are the good ones."

So now we're up to some distress sounds... a handful of howls and pup distress that are good WT sounds. We've almost created an entire soundlist. By page 18 I suspect we're going to have to buy extra sounds as 32 won't cover it.

NAHAULT-
"Most distress-called dogs run off as soon as you play it as is true with most of the other WT coyote files." When I got off the Martz method of barking at coyotes, and went back to using only the Johnny Stewart distress standards, or the Martz distresses, my hunting success went way up."

Is it just me or is that coyote 101? I don't believe Martz even claims to howl at a coyote after getting him IN with distress... could be wrong, but I don't recall him or anyone else making that assesment. Once a coyote close, coming, commited or in sight a howl of any kind is just too risky- why use it? There are occasions that I howl at coyotes I see- but usually in attempt to work other coyotes we don't see yet... depending on the comfort level of Coyote A and ALWAYS in during the rut phase.

Not saying one is harder than the other, but the type of setups we're doing in the east are very different than Nahaults bread and butter. Commiting a coyote across a 500 acre cornfield or over 3 wooded ridges requires a different approach than getting him to barrel within 15 yards in thick cover. When hunting a stand remotely similar to those AZ and CA stands I don't use a howler... and if I were choked up on a 15 pound coyote I sure wouldn't expect Martz's adult aggression sounds to make a positive impression on him.
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on December 20, 2006, 04:18 PM:
 

quote:

---

JRB hunter good coyote habitat will always have coyotes in it. Fill in could take from days to weeks, but they move up on the list, those pairs that are adults and been in the system awhile will defend what is there,until removed or natural death.

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quote:

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So by that you are leading me to believe that you think when it is a man made howl, the coyote can tell if it's male or female?

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Discriminant analysis of spectrographs of coyote vocalizations suggest that howls encode specific information about the howlers age, sex, size, and emotional state.
Cal, any ideas about how I can encode the fact that I am a two year old , 21 lb female that is lonely into my howls?
 

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Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on December 20, 2006, 04:22 PM:
 
Higgins, find me a 90 pound, 21 year old, lonely female while you're at it.
 

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Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on December 20, 2006, 05:10 PM:
 
Male beta challange is a great summertime call, I have called in a few coyotes with that sound. Timeing is everything with agressive coyote talk I feel.

I had a lamb kill deal where the coyotes would not answer a siren or howl to pinpoint location. I cold called north of these sheep and out of a relative small grassy draw is where these coyotes where living. I used a few different coyote vocals and nothing, I then hit the challange pair sound and they came flying out of that cover like gang busters both barking like crazy. That was the only thing that triggered them. I know before leaving any stand in a denning situation will hit that sound, if no other response.

I also have had them where I used male beta challange and received one pissed answer and then they both come in quit. I know summertime calling and using a dog is far different than fall calling. Your dealing with the highest majority of adult coyotes of any time of the year and it is a different deal.

Early fall you can suck in those pups darn easy with a distress sound for sure.
 

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Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on December 20, 2006, 05:29 PM:
 
Higgins, If we had the answer to that question we would have the coyote calling world by the ass.

CW, I understand completely that some days one call or another works better than another. I have used some odd ball stuff when nothing else is working while looking for trouble coyotes that weren't answering. But my whole point was that for most of us on the whole, as far as calling using coyote vocalizations, the only real point you (as a caller) can get across to the coyote is that you are either aggressive or non-aggressive. Like the disclaimer before, I may be all wet.
 

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Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on December 20, 2006, 05:47 PM:
 
I do see that point. The agressive window is far smaller than bringing in coyotes with non agressive vocals. I feel the key is to be in that "moody" spot reguardless of sounds used.
 

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Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on December 20, 2006, 09:44 PM:
 
"I feel the key is to be in that "moody" spot reguardless of sounds used."

I will agree with that statement. That goes back to what we were talking about in start.

During the denning season, aggresive holws will pull coyotes. During the fall, I feel to use these sounds and put up coyotes, you need to be in the core area or there safety zone. Most caller dont get inside that zone in the fall. And if they do, this could be the reason the aggresive howls work for them then. Just a thought?

I have called areas here that area flat eat up with sign, set up in what looks like the best spot and zip, no resonce, call the same spot two more times, zip, no resonce. Move down into the thick cover or further into the area even though the set up is not as good and inside there core area and pull them right in.....When Rich Higgens was here we called on of these areas....This area was also a teritory boundry as well.

I see that here locating coyotes at night....Sometimes they will cut me off and fire right back. Other times it may take up to 15-20 min for them to get vocal in responce to a yip howl. My thoughts are they relocate to there safety zone or core area were they feel safe before giveing a vocal responce.

CW,

Are you refering to the core area or safety zone when you say moody spot?

Brent
 

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Posted by Nahuatl (Member # 708) on December 21, 2006, 03:01 AM:
 
Very well. I concede. 5% of Martz's coyote sounds work 5% of the time. I still hope someone else who knows his e-callers, will address my fourth point.

My old WT has an SLA battery in a case that can be protected from cold weather with a heat pack. The new caller has an external battery hanging out in the cold. Browning, how does yours work in cold NH?

The old one used a TOA SC115 speaker. The new one is apparently based on the TOA SC130. The frequency response of the 30 is not as good as the 15, and when I play a battery of test tones through them, neither is as good as the cone speakers on the FoxPro or Minaska callers.

My old caller had a decent sized heat sink on the amp. On the new WT, the amp is built in the speaker's cap and does not. I heard that in hot weather it can get really hot, enough that it affects the caller's memory. Is that true?

My old remote was based on 2-watt FRS radios and reached over a mile. The new one is 0.5 watts, the same as FP and MO, and reaches 500 yards.

My old caller's memory used Compact Flash cards which were easily swapped or upgraded. The new WT does not.

The old caller was fully programmable by the user and played all my sounds, including the Johnny Stewart standards Bill is so fond of. The new one only plays the $33 sounds Bill puts on it.

And what's up with the 24-bit claim by WT? Unless Martz ran out and re-recorded all his sounds with brand new recording equipment, he only resampled his 96 Khz 16-bit masters on a computer. The new FoxPro Mark II sounds are true 192 KHz 24-bit.

So from what I can tell, everything about the new WT hardware, is actually a downgrade??.

Thanks to all for salvaging some decent topics from another otherwise worthless discussion of WT.

[ December 21, 2006, 03:03 AM: Message edited by: Nahuatl ]
 

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Posted by browning204 (Member # 821) on December 21, 2006, 03:22 AM:
 
Honestly, I have had no problem in the heat or cold with mine. only once I have had it not respond to the remote. I switched calling locations and no problem. Then a month or so went by and I tried calling the same area with the same set-up and it happened again. So, I am thinking it was the feild I was calling. It is a big old farm so maybe there is something buried under the ground or something weird like that. Other than that, I have had no problems. I hunt in some pretty thick crap sometimes and it always works ok for me.
 

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Posted by Nahuatl (Member # 708) on December 21, 2006, 06:12 AM:
 
Thanks for that info Browning. Have you used it any extended periods in the cold?

I looked at this season's hunt logs and recapitulated the animals shot by me or my hunt party and the sounds that were used.

Sceery hand calls (Jackrabbit and squeaker) - 35 coyotes and 1 badger

Recorded sounds:
Byron South's Cottontail - 26 coyotes and 2 gray foxes
Johnny Stewart's Squealing Bird - 16 coyotes and 1 gray fox
Johnny Stewart's Meadowlark - 3 coyotes
Johnny Stewart's Vittles - 9 coyotes
Johnny Stewart's Baby Cottontail or other rabbit - 10 coyotes, 4 badgers, and 3 bobcats
WT Phlegming Hare - 1 coyote and 1 bobcat
WT Goat distress - 1 coyote

That pretty well sums up the season, the sounds I used and the animals we killed and recovered.

Edit: Added in the last page of the log, a trip to NV on Oct 6 and the coyotes Don shot.

I hope some of the Martz boosters will respond in kind. Maybe one of you guys who really likes his sounds and his caller is having a good season and would like to post your own hunt results? - and tell me which of your aggressive or non-aggressive coyote sounds are working for you in real numbers. I'm open to comparisons and would like to see how they match up with my own experiences with my WT.

[ December 22, 2006, 04:12 AM: Message edited by: Nahuatl ]
 

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Posted by TheHuntedOne (Member # 623) on December 21, 2006, 08:40 AM:
 
That adds up to 80 plus coyotes.

It will take Browning and I...oh... 4 or 5 yers to get any menaingful numbers like that to compare results with. Pin this at the top and we will get back to you sometime in the late witner of 2010 or so. LOL.

By the way, did we mention we hate you ROFL.

Alot. LOL

Al

(That was all said in fun. Please do not take it as mean spiritied)
 

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Posted by browning204 (Member # 821) on December 21, 2006, 09:58 AM:
 
No I can't say that I have used it for long periods of time in the extreme cold but I certainly plan to IF it ever gets cold around here.

THO: my brother in law works for American Airlines, I can fly for free. What do ya say we fly out to Southern Cali. I'll hold him and you hit him!!!
 

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Posted by Nahuatl (Member # 708) on December 22, 2006, 04:10 AM:
 
I'll spot you 50 and give you 3 for every one of those NH monsters. Al and Tim have me convinced some of you face much tougher conditions. All recreational trapping was banned in California a decade ago. Predator hunting is the best I've ever seen.

I got an email from an engineer last night, a regular reader but unwilling to post his observations on the new WT caller. "How is it that WT changed from Li-Ion batteries originally at 14.8 volts to Ni-MH batteries with I'm guessing 11.2 volts and kept their "3 to 5 times louder" line?"

That's a 24% decrease in voltage to the amp and a very good question.

He also said that WT is now offering 32 sounds on the base model and will add 9 more for only $200.

Al - we called and killed #103 on Sunday.

[ December 22, 2006, 05:48 AM: Message edited by: Nahuatl ]
 

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Posted by Rob Love (Member # 723) on December 22, 2006, 08:34 AM:
 
Nahuatl: Sometimes things are over built. In my opinion on the new WT which I upgraded to, it’s better due to the elimination of bulk and newer remote. The old battery was heavy but it lasted a long time. Now I don’t get to call all day long or even weekly as my business keeps me very busy. The remote is a great improvement as I did experience initiation issues. I did learn to make sure it was working before I set out and make my way back to cover.
I really like the speaker on the WT because it’s not plastic. I know the others work just fine I just prefer metal over plastic in this case.
I do wish I could play an assortment of my own sounds on it though as I have a nefarious streak and neighbors who actually believe the street is haunted by civil war solders.
The remote has a decreased range but who was setting the call 500+ yards away?
I at most set it 60 to 70 yds out and that’s not allways needed.

I wounder if he could have used the same setup as my dog collar. It has a one mile range and small transmitter.
 

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Posted by browning204 (Member # 821) on December 22, 2006, 09:16 AM:
 
I guess that I must be lucky, I have never had problems with it initailizing or anything. Once I went to use it and my battery was dead. It was my fault because when I put it into my back pack I clicked the power on and it sat in my truck for a couple of days. Since then I have learned to pull the plug so it doesn't happen. Now I have a locking power swith on it that requires it to be pulled and switched.

You have to look at this honestly, If you go to another site you will see TONS of threads that say "problems with my new ******" or "can't loud sounds onto my new ******" or remote not responding to my upgraded ******"

And then when I ask the question as to why there are so many problems with the "awesome" piece of equipement, I get the response of "well it is electronic and do have unforseen problems" or "with the number of units sold there is surely gonna be some problems."

IF that is the case, then thats fine. But I have definately heard way more good things than bad about Bill's machine. I think when something does go wrong, for some reason it is amplified. Maybe because he is not an advertiser on these boards.

I have hunted with other E-callers that my buddies own, and I am glad that I made the choice that I did.

Not trying to piss anyone off!!
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 22, 2006, 09:59 AM:
 
browning204,
Pleased rest assured that most complaints regarding the WT caller has nothing to do with the machine. It is all about the man who owns the company.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 22, 2006, 09:59 AM:
 
Don't worry about that, Browning. If it happens, it happens. You just have to realize that this is another Ford/Chevy issue and people will always have their preferences.

I have a couple of hunting buddies that use the WT. What can I say about it, other than it sounds good? The rest of my opinions could be considered somewhat negative.

Sorting out the various claims from Foxpro, Wildlife Tech, Minaska, JS, etceteras.... FINE. I'm listening.

Arguing about it is very similiar to discussions about seventeen caliber as a proper coyote cartridge; you hardly ever change an opinion, but you sure get to voice your own opinions.

By the way, I had a very interesting conversation with Albert, up in Canada last week. His particular "yuk yuk" was the solemn pronouncements we read all the time claiming that a 17 was (at least) perfect for foxes! He's right, of course. A seventeen generally blows them in half, but it sounds reasonable; eh? (that's Canadian)

I also might add that Albert wasn't very impressed with my Minaska.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 22, 2006, 10:58 AM:
 
Leonard you had to bring up the seventeen again. I don't think you should believe everything that Albert says. I just bought a Banit big country a few weeks ago and its not a bad unit. The only thing i don't like about it is the sounds that came with it. I have spent three days getting my sounds into it and now its a much better unit. The big country is easey to operate and not to heavey for carrying around, and was'nt to hard to down load sounds into it.
Now the seventeen issue about cutting fox in half. If you make a badd hit you will get some damage, but not as badd as the 22 cal or larger cal. make. take a close look at these pic's. Do you see any large holes or the guts hanging out. http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/IMG_0256.jpg[/IMG]] http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/foxonfloor.jpg[/IMG]] http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/Tim4fox.jpg[/IMG]]

[ December 22, 2006, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on December 22, 2006, 11:11 AM:
 
Oh hell, we just drug the 17Rem into a WT debate!

Tim- I see a gut hanging out.
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on December 22, 2006, 11:35 AM:
 
Jason, Tim was talking about the foxes.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 22, 2006, 12:05 PM:
 
It's called an analogy, people. Some are imperfect.

So, the seventeen doesn't blow foxes in half, any more than other cartridges, right?

Everything I ever thought I knew, is completely incorrect, when it comes to seventeens!

They always kill coyotes stone dead without any visible damage. They hold better in the wind than any other cartridge, and have far less drop. They don't require frequent cleaning of the barrel, far from it! Never get a runner, becaue of surgically precise placement, ie: exceptional accuracy. Zero recoil, allowing you to see every hit (no misses, of course)

Just forget it. I'd go on, but I don't want to hijack this very informative five page thread. Never been accused of that before!

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 22, 2006, 12:52 PM:
 
TA17Rem,
Mighty fine looking foxes you have there. You are lucky to have that new Minaska "Big Country" with it's speaker/amp combo. The ability to suddenly turn up the volume so loud that the foxes die of the shock is really worth the extra bucks.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 22, 2006, 03:41 PM:
 
Everything I ever thought I knew, is completely incorrect, when it comes to seventeens!
Now thats true Leonard, but i can see from what you just posted you are catching on.
I don't no why the seventeens perform like they do, but as far as i'm concerned they do it very well. What i really get a kick out of is when I'm hunting with the crew and i make a 400 yard shot on a coyote. And then one of the guys will ask: are you still shooting that dam seventeen. LOL
By the way the rest of the guys on the crew shoot big bores, 22-250, 243, 243 imp, and one uses a 300 W.M. Every year i kill just as many as them...
Thanks for the compliment Rich. I will be heading for S.D. next week and we will see how well it performs out in the open country. I'm takeing the cronk screamer and howler along for back-up.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 22, 2006, 03:48 PM:
 
Don't worry, Tim. I'm just yanking your chain. By the way, those are nice fox.

I saw five red fox Tuesday, (up in Canada) and one on the Navajo Re$, the week before. That's a first, never seen a red fox in the field, in 50 some years?

If a 17 works for you, I'm happy for you.

Good hunting. LB

[ December 22, 2006, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 22, 2006, 04:07 PM:
 
Thats ok Leonard, i was kinda yanking on youre chain as well.. LOL
How come you did'nt shoot a couple of those red fox? They make a real nice trophy, and would look good on youre wall..
 

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Posted by stevecriner (Member # 892) on December 22, 2006, 06:35 PM:
 
Hey Leonard!!! I havent even seen 50 years..... But im workin on it..28 is a few weeks away..
 

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Posted by Nahuatl (Member # 708) on December 23, 2006, 04:43 PM:
 
Not only are those gorgeous foxes, but it seems to me Tim that the one you are holding is huge.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 23, 2006, 05:53 PM:
 
Nahuatl: Thanks...
The foxes you see are all males and yes they do get pretty big up here. The fox in second pic. we call a runner, its hard to tell in these pic's but that fox legs are alot longer than average fox. Some guys from a town nearby chased him around all winter and could never catch him. i bought them a few drinks one night to loosen up their tongues and the next day i went after him.
He was a fast one thats for sure, he made it back to his hole before i could cut him off. When he got to the hole i let out a loud whistle and got him to look back and that gave me and the 17 enough time to get the job done.
 

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