This is topic sound levels in forum Calls and Gear forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.


To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://www.huntmastersbbs.com/cgi-bin/cgi-ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000351

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 08, 2010, 05:13 PM:
 
I've been playing around with the sound meter I picked up today and found out a few interesting things about hand calls open reed and closed reed. I placed the meter 14 ft. away from me in the house then i blew on a few calls with open and close and semi open reeds..

Red-desert howler gave a high reading of 98.2 avr.

Custom yote buster howler; 98.4-98.5

Custom close reed small barrel; Rabbit 96.1
bird/peeps/ flutter tongue 96.0

black custom closed reed med. barrel; Rabbit 96.2 with bird sounds at 96-97.0

Scerry bite reed 97.0

small custom deer antler open reed; Howls 98.1

Wiley-one she howler; 98.2

voice howls; Wife-85-86
Me- 97.2-98.0

Will test same calls outside at a farther distance later on to see if there is any difference.

As for loudness I would say most of the calls I tested are pretty close to being the same, with some being store bought and some custom.. More later..
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 08, 2010, 07:55 PM:
 
I went out before dark and tested the caller for sound dB from 50 yds to 300 yds.first test is straight in line with the direction of the caller.

50 yds; mouse 86.0 dB
rabbit 88.0
coyote howls 90

100 yds; mouse 75
rabbit 75
howls 84

200 yds; mouse 71
rabbit 71
Howls 75

300 yds; mouse 60
rabbit 66
Howls 72

sound meter at the 10:00 position from caller.
300 yds mouse 70
rabbit 70.6
Howls 72.5

Meter at 9:00 from caller

300 yds: mouse 70
rabbit 70.3
Howls 73.0

Meter behind caller at 6:00

100 yds; mouse 70.6
rabbit 70.8
Howls 72.0

There is a difference on how loud the sound is depending on where you are standing from the caller and I had the wife record just the highest recording of the sound and should be avr. out for a more accurate reading with varis sounds and farther out from the caller.. I will do this when I have more time..
But you will notice that the sound is the loudest at the center...
 

---

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on June 08, 2010, 09:26 PM:
 
Andy dude,

This one's for you!

C'mon guys, I know you're all thinkin' it.

So frickin' what?

Tim,

The fact that you call a specific scientific instrument a "sound meter" shows, once more, how little you understand about sound.

98. 4 what?

Do you realize that the refractive qualities of the interior walls of your house negate these results?
*There's a reason sound labs are made with sound cancelling materials on the walls, that's about resonance.

And do you realize that if you change surroundings and distance in a single swoop the comparision you make (which is basically worthless without a thesis, anyways) is also flawed?

All of the elements of your supposed testing are called variables, and these variables must be isolated, and altered, methodically.

That's how science works. And you sir, are no scientist!

I imagine you've gotten your hands on one of Sly's favorite lil toys, the Decibel(A) meter...

And here's an interesting quote to show the validity of such meters;

"Measurements in db(A) are widespread and convenient but you must remember that they are a compromise and tell us nothing about the frequency content of a noise. The ear can tell a difference between a washing machine and a telephone buzzer because their sounds have a very different structure. But such different sounds may give identical readings in dB(A)."

In reality wavelength, frequency, and velocity need to be taken into account, and without a mathmatical keyboard I can't show you the equations used to do so.
But, it's an equation in multiple variables, and is the same reason Sly's testing fell short, as it was, and as best I could get out of him, in only two variables (frequency in hertz, and volume in decibels).

There are at least five different ways sound is measured, in Decibels, sone, mel, phon, and hertz... until you apply all five to your theories, they fall short of complete or viable.

Krusty

P.S. Had to walk away from my post for a bit... the fact that few of your numbers for distance from caller, stayed the same as you revolved around it, negate the results... don't change two variables at once!!!

Tenths of db(a) don't mean shit!
Your results actually prove my theory, that direction from which measurments were taken show little or no change to dispersal patterns of sound.

[ June 08, 2010, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 08, 2010, 10:00 PM:
 

quote:

---

Do you realize that the refractive qualities of the interior walls of your house negate these results?

---

Yes but if the test is being done the same for each call you still have the same results or a pretty good idea of how loud each call is compared to another type or design.
Also if you take a reeded call and use mid range of the reed you will get the loudest sound the call can produce. If you move youre mouth up on the call you get less volume and if you move out to the end of the reed it willbe louder than than if in all the way but not as loud as mid reed. This was done on more than one open reeded call and the same results where noted..
So this tells me if I want to get the most volume from a open reed call mid range on the reed would be best..
I'm not trying to measure freq. but sound and how far and how loud it is. The meter picks up all freq.'s just don't tell you what they are. Like I mentioned in the other post what I need to do is avr out the readings I get for each sound and compare to another call or caller or sound they produce.. what the results will tell is what call or sounds are getting out there to the coyote and what sounds are not..
So far my tests have been only to 300 yards which is nothing but from what I've seen so far is the sounds are weaker to the back and side of the caller and the farther I get out there the bigger the difference will be..
Like I said the meter picks up all freq or most and also shows the bottom end and when you watch the meter it will show a area of sound that is constent (stays the same) for a period of time, these are the numbers I'm looking for..
Rabbit screams for example the dB reading stays pretty close to the same or very small variation, a Howl on a open reed call depending on who is blowing on the howler at the time or which type you are useing will show a large fluxuation of sound if done right, some howlers don't do that. (reed locking up)...
 

---

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on June 08, 2010, 11:11 PM:
 
Howls...

300 yards from meter.

At 0° (straight in front of the meter, also known as +Y), 72db(A).

At 300° (10 o'clock, which I won't bother to list as a linear equation), 72.5db(A).

At 270° (9 o'clock, aka -X), 73db(A).

These numbers not only show that sound dispersal is relatively unchanged, but that indeed it went up as you got around to the side.

Your theory, or your test, is flawed.

You blew it, by changing two variables on the final portion, to 100 yards on the 180° position. So that result has to be thrown out.

And like Sly you don't have a uniform test bed "driving" the calls, you as a machine, aren't calibrated well enough to trust the results you produce.

The whole testing process you illustrate here is counter to what you originally theorized... you need to revolve around the SPEAKER of your caller, with the METER, at a singular exact distance for each position, and you need these positions to be equidistant around the compass (clock), and use the exact same volume settings and battery charge levels. And since you are limited to the X and Z axes, you need to have the speaker placed so that it broadcasts horizontally.

Do the test right, or STFU!
Admitting that your parameters are unreliable doesn't lend credence to your claim that you're correct.

*But you are one up on ol' Sly, at least you'll admit your testing parameters are flawed, if not your whole theory.

Krusty

P.S. If you do want to continue with hand calls, take multiple readings (10 or more) from each position, throw out the largest and smallest readings from each positon, and figure an average of those that remain.

Then you have to remember what Mark Twain said, "There's lies, there's damn lies, and then there's statistics."

Edit to fix X & Y coordinates.

[ June 08, 2010, 11:33 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 09, 2010, 06:51 AM:
 

quote:

---

These numbers not only show that sound dispersal is relatively unchanged, but that indeed it went up as you got around to the side.

---

The plan was to use the sports field to do the testing just for starters but it was in use so I had to go use a gravel road that is hardy traveled on so I could'nt do a 360 degree test like I wanted.
Instead I just positioned the meter at 300 yds and rotated the caller to simulate this. Like you said there was a increase in sound at the 9:00 position and this may be due to the wind blowing from the N-W.
 

---

Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on June 09, 2010, 07:28 AM:
 
TA, what Krusty is pointing out is that your 'tests' are not scientifically sound. You've got too many variables to account for and little/no controls. Therefore, your results are flawed/skewed from the get go & can't be accurately representative as proof of your hypothesis...
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 09, 2010, 08:10 AM:
 
I'm not really trying to prove anything just showing what or how loud a certain sounds are and how it carries on a normal calling day in the field. The tests I did above was just a start and when I do it again it it will be in more detail.
Later on I may set the caller up behind some bushes or a couple of tree's and see if there is any difference and if so how much...

Just for fun I tested the sound of my two ATV's to see which is louder. My Kaw. is louder in the drivers seat compared to my Polaris. But when I test the machines as they drive by the Polaris is louder than the Kaw.. So now I know when I take one of them with me hunting i will use the Kaw.
Anyway this is mostly done for something to do on rain days so there is no reason to get bent out of shape about it...
 

---

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on June 09, 2010, 10:10 AM:
 
Tim,

I'm not bent out of shape.

I just get tired of ideas being turned into evidence without merit.
Sly and I have gone through all this "science of sound" stuff three or four times now, and every time I've learned something more about it.

When you can show us absolute results, born of solid science, and based on logical theory, I'll be the first to applaud your efforts.
Until then, if you're spewing B.S. somebody, more than likely to be me, just might call you on it.

Go ahead dude, have fun with that db(A) meter, like the toy you are using it as. Just don't call your games science, or your ideas knowledge.

Krusty
 

---

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 09, 2010, 12:28 PM:
 
Can somebody tell me what is the point of all this? Thank you. ElBee
 

---

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on June 09, 2010, 12:38 PM:
 
Krusty;
I gotta admit, I'm a little bit confused here. Are you saying that (generaly, no wind, flat terrain, etc.) if I point my old FoxPro toward the horizon to the south, that it would be just as loud behind it, to the north??? I could understand that the sound level would be the same all around if I pointed it straight up, but it does seem to me that it should be louder in front of the speaker.

Actually, that should be fairly easy to check with a db meter. Lonely dirt road, calm day (or night) 4 wheeler, point the call down the road, check sound levels to distance until it drops off & check the mileage. Repete going the other way, remembering to shut the 4 wheeler's engine off each time the sound level is checked. Conducting the test in several different locations should show some kind of pattern that we can ponder over.
 

---

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on June 09, 2010, 12:42 PM:
 
El Bee; The point is that it's the off season & we're bored. This is serious stuff.
 

---

Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on June 09, 2010, 12:43 PM:
 
My guess? Summer Boredom.

Forget all the technical Bullshit.

Blow call,or turn on call,wait for approaching Predator to present a shot,Shoot Predator.

Move to next stand repeat process several times during the day,go home....

Good Hunting Chad
 

---

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 09, 2010, 12:56 PM:
 
That's GOLD, Chad! We need to render a marble monument with those words, captured for eternity. How do you keep coming up with these pearls of wisdom, Amigo mio?
 

---

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on June 09, 2010, 01:58 PM:
 
Leonard,

I'm just sick of Tim, and his "superior intellect".

Just like when Sly started talking down to Rich, when Tim started talking down to you, I'd had enough.

I'm not bored, I'm fed up.

Kokopelli,

No I am not saying the amplitude or volume is the same in front of and behind the speaker. Tim used the analogy of a flashlight to strengthen his theory of why he waves his speaker around, and furthered that anaology by comparing a DK speaker to a floodlight, and a WT speaker to a spotlight.

He makes it out that it's as if there is a "darkness" behind the speaker, in all practicality void of sound... similar to the large parabolas used in Leonard's example of the whisper displays (originally made popular by Bell Labs).

What I'm saying is, that without moving his speaker, Tim could accomplush the same thing most users of e-callers do with the volume knob.

If he wants the sound to reach out farther, turn up the volume (raise the amplitude), and increase the "broadcast power" in all directions at once.

Now granted a speaker has a greatest zone of amplitude, some amount of focus to it's broadcast, but only at 100% volume, and at maximum range of said focal power, would anyone ever have a real purpose for Tim's methods.

Tim has cited the waving of the speaker as "triggering" a response from otherwise non-responsive coyotes... that were a mile away.
Behle once called bullshit on Tim's mile away theory, itself, claiming nobody can see a coyote a mile away.

Anyways I have had my fill of this, and I'm moving on.

Krusty
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 09, 2010, 02:04 PM:
 

quote:

---

as loud behind it, to the north??? I could understand that the sound level would be the same all around if I pointed it straight up, but it does seem to me that it should be louder in front of the speaker.

Actually, that should be fairly easy to check with a db meter. Lonely dirt road, calm day (or night) 4 wheeler, point the call down the road, check sound levels to distance until it drops off & check the mileage. Repete going the other way, remembering to shut the 4 wheeler's engine off each time the sound level is checked. Conducting the test in several different locations should show some kind of pattern that we can ponder over.

---

quote:

---

Tim has cited the waving of the speaker as "triggering" a response from otherwise non-responsive coyotes... that were a mile away.
Behle once called bullshit on Tim's mile away theory, itself, claiming nobody can see a coyote a mile away.

---

You can't with the naked eye but you can with a pair of Bino.'s, Just ask some of the other members that call in wide open areas or along frozen rivers..

[ June 09, 2010, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

---

Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on June 09, 2010, 02:28 PM:
 
Krusty,

But what does it really matter? Do you think you are going to change Tim's or Sly's mind?

I saw that when we had that train wreck with Sly and that bullshit estrus chirp sound.He was convinced...Even though he couldn't prove shit.

Calling is a Simple game,no use in over complicating it....

Good Hunting Chad
 

---

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on June 09, 2010, 02:40 PM:
 
Okay one last post...

Tim,

The math is complicated, but as I alread stated, unless the wind speed is a significant portion of the speed of sound, there will be no significant change in the way the sound is broadcast.

Thousands of callers, using unmoving remote speakers have proved that coyotes can be drawn in from all points of the compass, regardless of where the speaker is pointed.
But generally since there is a zone of greatest amplitude, we tend to point the speaker where we believe those we intend to call are (and most leave it pointed there).

Chad,

Nope I won't change either of their minds, anytime soon, and for today I'm though trying.

"A closed mind, cannot learn" Bruce Lee.

Krusty
 

---

Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on June 09, 2010, 03:23 PM:
 
ElBee,

This ones for you,I did forget a very important Technical item for night calling.

A SPOTLIGHT......

Good Hunting Chad
 

---

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on June 09, 2010, 03:59 PM:
 
UTcaller;

Well.....yeah, during fur season, that's the logical way to do things. With summer boredom, though, we can be excused for pontificating & being pampas regarding all subjects large and small.

Of course with the recent state of the fur market, it's no big woopie whether or not I kill a bunch of $5.00 coyotes. If the market stays down this fall, I may try some things that I normaly wouldn't do, just to see what happens.
 

---

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 09, 2010, 04:11 PM:
 
Keep up the good work TA and remember if ol Ben Franklin would've listened to the nay sayers, he wouldn't have gotten electrocuted.
 

---

Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on June 09, 2010, 04:12 PM:
 
Koko,

Good Point.

Where's WileyE and Sly when you need em....lol

I guess whatever get's you to fur season huh....

Good Hunting Chad
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 09, 2010, 05:01 PM:
 

quote:

---

"A closed mind, cannot learn" Bruce Lee.

---

Yeah and he blew his brain up from to many drugs...
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 10, 2010, 10:54 AM:
 
I finished up yesterday on what testing I wanted to do or as far as I needed to take it.
The sound range is'nt exact cause I was'nt going to stake everything out and measure it but I think I'm close enough to get the general picture of how it works...

The sound travel area is pretty close to the shape of a egg if you had it drawn on paper with the bottom of the egg being behind the caller and about half of the bottom removed.. I may get a diagram up a little later to show what i'm talking about..
The testing was done with no wind, a lite breeze and a 5-10 mph wind.. according to the sound meter the loudest of the sound is towards the front of the caller or direction its pointed. I took readings at 12:00, 2:00, 3:00, 4:00, 6:00 and so on. From 12:00 going clockwise or counter closk wise the sound would decrease by about 5% or a little more depending on what sound was used and would continue to decrease as I went. When I reached 3:00 or 9:00 the sound would decrease about 10% or little more from there on, also as I went farther out from the caller the sound would decrease by 10 % at 100 yds and so on. This was done with no wind..
With a lite breeze the sound shifted a little towards the down wind side and both times I tested in the wind i was faceing the west with the caller and getting a N-W by w. wind..
No matter hoow hard the wind was blowing the sound forward of the speaker was still the loudest by 5% or more..
To my left with the 5-10 mph wind (down-wind side) The sound was the same or very close from 9:00 to 6:00.
Basicly whats going on with or with out wind is the sound area is shifting to the downwind side some what and also by useing different sounds the sound area is either shrinking or exspanding ( range increaseing/ decreaseing)
I also tested the back side of the caller with the wind and against the wind. Against the wind I could only get a reading as far as 200 yds and with the wind blowing from the back of caller to the meter I got a stronger readings so i only went another 100 yds farther back which put me at 300 and still got a reading but 10% less than the 200 yd. reading..
Also noted was when takeing a reading from the front of the caller there was anywhere from a 15%-20% reduction in sound with the 5-10 mph wind.
 

---

Posted by luckyjack (Member # 3462) on June 10, 2010, 11:53 AM:
 
Even without all the schooling krusty has and with no DB meter, I could of told you most of what you just posted TA.

I wouldn't of been able to post all those neat percentages though, so you are one up on me there.
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 11, 2010, 05:59 PM:
 
Well I suppose I'll get this Mith out of the way first. This quote was posted by Krust.

Most if not all of my calling is done in the Dakota's or here in Mn. and there is snow on the ground or very little vegatation to hide a coyote so it makes it possable to spot a coyote a mile off. With the naked eye all you see is a spot moveing along on the snow or ice or standing out on a ridge top. With a pr. of field-glasses or the rifles scope you can pick out a coyote much easier at 1 mile.
My coyote decoy is on the lighter brown side and faded so it makes it a little tougher to pick out at a mile on a gravel road but add a little snow and give the decoy a little more color and it willbe much easier to pick out..
Here is a little vid. of a coyote decoy at one mile..

quote:

---

Behle once called bullshit on Tim's mile away theory, itself, claiming nobody can see a coyote a mile away

---

[URL= [/UR L]]

[ June 11, 2010, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 11, 2010, 06:21 PM:
 
Ok this is the pattern I came up with its not exact or perfect but I think its close enough for calling.. Others were right and stated there are other variables to take into consideration.
I found that all the variables do is increase or shrink the size of the sound range according to the numbers I got from the sound meter.
Testing was done at 50 yds, 100 yds, and 200 yds all I was looking for is a pattern in how the sound traveled.
My caller sits about 12" off from the ground but I also tested it at 3' off from the ground and found I got more range in all directions checked with the sounds I use.
When useing different sounds the size of the egg will shrink or increase in size if the sound is louder. The sound meter picks up the higher freq. but does not tell you what they are or how high it is..
A Howl for example gives the 2nd highest reading at the beginning and the highest reading when it max's out or reaches highest freq....
More on this later...

If there is no wind or wind all it does is move the sound area in relation to where the caller is sitting.. As you will see in my sketches the sound pattern moves but not the caller.. http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/CallerInfoAandB.jpg[/IMG]]

This was a test done calling with the wind to show how much sound goes behind the caller. I could not get a reading past 200 yds due to the wind drowning out the sound.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/CallerInfoC.jpg[/IMG]]

[ June 11, 2010, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 11, 2010, 06:39 PM:
 
This next drawing shows how most but not all the coyotes respond to the direction I'm calling to and how they come in. Most of the info is from memory and from my long book. On the coyotes that I had come in from the side was due to the caller being played in those directions.
The coyotes I have called in will come in to 200 yds. and 100 yds roughly and then either come straight in, get shot were they stood or tried to go to my down wind side if any.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/CallerInfoD.jpg[/IMG]]

In this next drawing I'm showing the caller faceing west with a slight N-W wind. You can see were the caller is in relation to how the wind is blowing and will notice you have more sound going out farther to youre left which gives you a greater chance of calling in a coyote from that direction if one is around that area...
Like I mentione above most of my coyotes come straight in to the source of the sound and I think this also happens to the callers in the southern region but they can't see it due to vegataion.. I also have a hunch that the coyotes that back door them came from that direction to begin with..
Most guys now days call with the caller out and away from the shooters and into the wind I would think that if the caller took his E-call and placed it out in front and favored a little more into the wind and also turned the caller to face say a little more to the right the coyotes comeing in from behind ( left side) would come in more out in front and out of the scent cone..
Any way this is just a guide to give you a better understanding and nothing more so take it for what its worth. 0

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/CallerInfoE.jpg[/IMG]]

[ June 11, 2010, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

---

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on June 11, 2010, 10:28 PM:
 
Luckyjack,

Like Tim did, you coulda posted whatever numbers strike your fancy, and support your theories... maybe it's your honesty that kept you from doing so.

Okay guys,

Show of hands, how many of y'all even own 20x binoculars or scopes?!?!

Tim,

I don't believe that's a mile. Prove it.

Nice drawings, NOT. Again, prove it.

This shit get stuck in yer craw, did it? Whaaaa!

Get someone, other than your wife, to verify your claims.
Let's see a picture of this supposed meter.

Prove something, don't just keep talking and talking.

I think the Moon is made of green cheese.
I think the Moon is made of green cheese.
I think the Moon is made of green cheese.
And I think the cheese came from Minnesota, can you prove I'm wrong?

Krusty
 

---

Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on June 12, 2010, 06:22 AM:
 
Tim nice pics but alot of this is fluff I think to prove something, what I don't know. You forget the hearing ability of a coyote and the fact that many are going to approach downwind that is a given, there also going to take the shortest route alot of the time. The main time I don't see this behavior is denning season, then many come straight into the sound or dog.

How close are you to the coyotes your calling, what terrain sits between you and those coyotes, that all will have a bearing on there approach durring "normal" calling times.

One uses an e caller to take advantage of placement of sound to get those coyotes to come into you on your terms, by pre locating, using the cover, and caller placement all have a direct effect on there approach.

I want to know where those coyotes are before I call them so the 360 spin I have never found to be needed. I could see where night hunting it would have merit as those crittersd are out and about and pinpointing location different than calling in the daylight to denned coyotes or those laying up for a mid morning snooze.

I say if you want to do the 360 do it, but coyotes have excellent hearing ability and can pin point sound very,very well.

Tell me with your sound meter at 30 ft what DB rating to you get from your atom with a jack distress and female coyote howl.

I will say I have spotted many coyotes at a mile or a shade more as well, we have open country and certain times of the year they stick out well, I use 10x steiner predator c5 binocs. When the grass is green there white patch really sticks out at long distances. Many have howled back for me to pinpoint for the airplane or to call and with soem glassing you can see them, alot of tougher when it is brown in the fall as they blend in well and the sun isn't as good as the spring/summer.

[ June 12, 2010, 06:26 AM: Message edited by: coyote whacker ]
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 12, 2010, 10:50 AM:
 
Krust you were'nt listen again. In the video I set the camera at 10x out to 20x to show you a coyote canbe seen . Most scopes can be bought with 10x and 20x range..coyote whacker has also said he has seen them at a mile so thats good enough for me..

quote:

---

. You forget the hearing ability of a coyote and the fact that many are going to approach downwind that is a given

---

quote:

---

there also going to take the shortest route alot of the time

---

quote:

---

One uses an e caller to take advantage of placement of sound to get those coyotes to come into you on your terms, by pre locating, using the cover, and caller placement all have a direct effect on there approach

---

quote:

---

Tell me with your sound meter at 30 ft what DB rating to you get from your atom with a jack distress and female coyote howl.

---

I don't have a Atom, I have a 2030. I have'nt gotten into the sound testing of other sounds on the caller other than mouse,pigmy cottontail and female Howls that I used for the initial test..
I was also suppose to get a F-P today to do a sound test on but its raining at the moument..


All my testing is to give a caller a general idea of whats going on with the sound that his caller puts out and how somethings like wind effect it nothing more..

[ June 12, 2010, 11:00 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 12, 2010, 01:36 PM:
 
Well here is a pic of the sound meter.

 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 12, 2010, 01:53 PM:
 
coyote whacker; I don't broadcast the sound 360 just from 9:00 to 3:00. Here is a pic of what I do and you will see I can cover a little more ground by doing so.


I went out with my son after dinner and set the caller about 30 ft. from the sound meter and ran abunch of sounds through the caller. You have proably heard most sounds so keep in mind that most all of the sounds will fluxuate up and down in scale so my readings are from the middle where the sound stays the same the most and then i took a reading at the hi end of the sound pitch (loudest)...

Mouse: 71-94

cottontail adult 95-98 (solid)

jackrabbit baby 95-100 (solid)

snowshoe hare 95-98 (solid)

Baby lamb 96-104 (solid at top end)

prarie dog 75-79

ground squirrel 78-85

Coyote female adult 96-105 (up & down)

coyote adult male 98-103 (solid)

coyote pup dist 88-97 ( up & down)

Partridge 96-99 ( solid)

coyote adult distress 88-95

wood pecker 90-97 ( up & down)
 

---

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on June 13, 2010, 07:07 AM:
 
Tim;
Since you have a decible meter, do you take requests?? (Other than the usual ones involving a lack of sunshine) If so, I have a couple.

(1) Set up along side of a dirt road and have somebody drive a 3/4 ton pick-up by at about 30 mph.

(2) Same truck, same speed, going over a cattle guard.

While I realize that there may be a couple of varibles involved, these are two sounds (noise levels) that most western callers can relate to in terms of volume and distance. Knowing that a certain call is ** decibles doesn't tell me much. Being able to compare the call numbers to something known makes it a bit more understandable.
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 13, 2010, 07:29 AM:
 
No problem Koko except we no longer have any cattle guards around here.

The sounds posted above were tested at 30 ft. and full volume and I tested some hand calls at 10 ft. so you could use one of youre hand calls for a comparison. Most of the hand calls I tested open and closed reed had a reading of 96 -98.0..
Two of my ATV gave a reading of 86.0 and 93.6.
I'll look around and see what else I could get a reading from maybe fire a couple of rifles or something..
 

---

Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on June 13, 2010, 07:54 AM:
 
Tim I would think volume would make up for your movement of 180 degrees when taking into account the hearing ability of a coyotes and the range they can hear sounds in.

But if it works for you then so be it.

I just know I have located coyotes the night prior setup to call the area had the caller facing west,NW and those coyotes approached from the SW so from their location to the speaker location was getting close to the other end of that 180 and they came in with no problems able to hear my offerings plain as day from 1/2 mile or a a shade more. I don't think people give coyotes enough credit on their hearing ability.
 

---

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on June 13, 2010, 08:36 AM:
 
NO CATTLE GUARDS?????? What kind of terrible place do you live in????
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 13, 2010, 08:58 AM:
 

quote:

---

I just know I have located coyotes the night prior setup to call the area had the caller facing west,NW and those coyotes approached from the SW so from their location to the speaker location was getting close to the other end of that 180 and they came in with no problems able to hear my offerings plain as day from 1/2 mile or a a shade more. I don't think people give coyotes enough credit on their hearing ability.

---

quote:

---

Yeah, me too! What do you mean; no cattle guards?
You can hunt those places?

---

Just before Bush left office there where some cut backs and guess what we were the first. They fired every dam one of the cattle guards we had..LOL

[ June 13, 2010, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

---

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on June 13, 2010, 01:36 PM:
 
The way that I heard it was that The Big O fired the cattle guards on federal land in the red areas as payback from the election but Joe Biden (Mini-O) talked him into grant money for job re-training. At that point Nancy (never had an O) Pelosi invited all of the unemployed, undocumented cattle guards to San Francisco, the sanctuary city, to join the democratic party.
 

---

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on June 13, 2010, 03:52 PM:
 
Kokopelli,

Here's a link to some common sounds to give you a reference point for db(A) readings.

Krusty
 

---

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on June 13, 2010, 06:04 PM:
 
Thanx Krusty;

Good stuff!!!!
 

---

Posted by JohnLK (Member # 1978) on June 14, 2010, 05:47 AM:
 
One of the first things I do before I leave to go hunting is to stand outside and listen to find out what direction distant sounds are coming from. Even on a calm morning sound well flow better from a certain direction. If I can hear distant sounds coming from the west I go to places where I call in an easterly direction so the sound of my calls travel as far as possible.
 

---

Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on June 14, 2010, 06:23 AM:
 
All I know is that if it has rained for 2 weeks solid and its so damn muddy you can't go anywhere and you have been stuck cleaning stuff and doing office work for the entire time, it doesn't matter much where the sound goes!

I am amazingly shit full of this weather!
 

---

Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on June 14, 2010, 06:47 AM:
 
I know what you mean, Cal. Everyday it is either raining hard or hot and humid. Weather not fit for anything.
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 14, 2010, 05:35 PM:
 
Rained out again today so I grabbed a couple of rifles and the sound meter and went out to compare the reports from the rifles..
I used the 17 Pred. in first test and a 22-250 in second.

17 Pred. 69.3 and 53.4
2nd shot 73.4 and 55.4

22-250 71.8/ 61.9

2nd. shot 61.5/ 65.2 ( got to close to the weeds)

I'm not sure on this but if the bullet is travel almost 4 times the speed of sound the first number is the crack of the bullet and second reading is the report of the rifle..???

If you go back and look at the numbers I posted for calling sounds at 30 ft. you will see that the caller is a little louder than the rifle
report. Like Randy mentioned in the pup distress post if you keep the caller playing when takeing a shot it does help some to cover up the rifle report.
For the guys useing suppressers they do help with the report of the rifle but as you see in my readings the bullet still makes a heck of a crack...
Also if you look at the meter between shots you can see how loud the wind is when blowing about 5-10 mph, plus the sound from a human voice.. Later....
[URL= [/UR L]]

[ June 14, 2010, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

---

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 14, 2010, 05:54 PM:
 
Tim, something ain't right on the gun shot readings. We had an OSHA dude come in and test all our equipment, anything above 90 got a sign that says ear pro required. I hung several signs and I guarantee you if my pistol blasted we'd all hear it. Gun shots are a lot louder than 90db. (speaking of centerfires like the 22-250)
 

---

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on June 14, 2010, 06:30 PM:
 
Gotta love Google!

"A typical rifle gunshot is very loud — in the region of 140 to 170 decibels while the threshold for pain is 130 db[1]. This can be lowered to around 115 db through the use of a suppressor and subsonic ammunition."

Way to go Mr. Science!

What does this (HUGE mistake, or possibly an improperly functioning meter), say about the validity of all the above data?

Krusty
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 14, 2010, 06:49 PM:
 
If you paid attension you would of known that i tested the rifles at 30 ft. not at the muzzle, "Big difference"

Also you have to take into account what cal. of rifle they tested..
From what I was told if a test is being done to determin if hearing protection is needed or more protection the sound has to be checked at the source or where the person will be sitting or working... I thought you said you where going to take youre med.'s and lay down!!!

Edit to add. To help you sleep better I'll do a test at the muzzle tommorrow..

[ June 14, 2010, 06:53 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 14, 2010, 07:00 PM:
 
I copied this from the link you provided earlier

quote:

---

Normal conversation (3-5') 60-70dB

---

Now go look at the video and see what the reading is for when I was talking. Pretty close don't you think..

Oh! incase you missed it my voice measured at 50-55 at 30 ft...

[ June 14, 2010, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

---

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on June 14, 2010, 07:28 PM:
 
Tim,

I am paying attention!

You said "the numbers I posted for calling sounds at 30 ft," you never stated the distance at which you tested the rifle reports (and those numbers are invalid... look at how far call sounds travelled without significant loss of volume, 30 ft certainly doesn't change a rifle report).

And a voice howl is not done at "normal conversation" level, so no matter how far the meter was, it's not a valid data point.

Krusty
 

---

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 14, 2010, 07:33 PM:
 
Was the muzzle pointing away from you or at you? That might be the difference, have your wife shoot the gun at the decible meter while you're holding it...

Remind her that's a borrowed meter so she doesn't hit it.
 

---

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on June 14, 2010, 07:39 PM:
 
Tim,

I just re-read the entire thread.

Nowhere do you ever mention your voice being measured at 50-55 db(A), for sure not in the first video.
Edit 2; I just watched the second, but there's no way to tell inexplicably the distance of the meter nor the rifles, and something doesn't sound right about the soft reports heard in the video.

*Edit; Your numbers show that a mouse squeak lost around 20 db(A) over 250 yards, yet you want us to believe a typical rifle loses 100 db(A) or so, in just 30 yards?

If you think an e-caller (at a volume setting not disclosed), even if at full volume, is louder than a rifle, you really are an idiot!

Krusty

[ June 14, 2010, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 14, 2010, 08:11 PM:
 
One more time: If you watch the video at the very beginning I mention the 17 Pred for the first rifle tested with the meter set at 30 ft. If you also watch the meter as its working you will see numbers in the range of 35-45 this is the wind that its picking up, and if you listen for my voice and watch the meter you will get a reading of how loud my voice is.. about 50-55..

quote:

---

Was the muzzle pointing away from you or at you? That might be the difference, have your wife shoot the gun at the decible meter while you're holding it...

---

Tom: The meter was placed 30 ft. from me and the camera and the rifle. I aimed the rifle just over the top of the meter about 3-5 ft. when I took the last shot with the 22-250 I was aiming a little left of the meter and you will notice a change in sound cause I shot into the weeds.

I mention this to the wife and she asked if I had the meter set on auto, I said no and she replyed this may affect the reading if it was above 90. I took another look at the meter in the video and the sound bar did'nt max out plus the sound it picked up was under 90 so the readings I got are correct but I'll recheck everything tommorrow and redo...

I don't think you guys realize how much the sound is reduced when you add 10, 20, 30 ft into the picture so I ran another test with my E-caller..

Mouse distress at 30 ft. 71-94
mouse distress at 4" from caller 120-130.

Lamb distress at 30 ft. 96-104
Lamb distress at 4" from caller 125-134

As you see the 30 ft. does make a big difference...
 

---

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 14, 2010, 08:40 PM:
 
I know I can hear mine or my partners rifle report over any e-caller. Guns are loud Tim.
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 14, 2010, 10:11 PM:
 
Two different freq. Tom. A gun going off is at the lower end compared to a distress sound so it may seem the gun is louder, but its not....

Edit to add: Here is the best way I can explain it Tom.

You take a Howler and make a long drawn out lonesome Howl. If I took a reading from the sound meter the second loudest part of the howl is when you first start to howl. You are lower on the scale when you start which makes it seem loud which it is. As you go up in scale the pitch is higher and also louder just as you peak out. I don't know how far a coyote can hear but by metering the howl at a longer distance the lower end of the howl will drown out but the higher pitch from the howl can still be heard. This higher pitch maybe is what triggers the coyote to howl back..Maybe this is that high C note that was talked about awhile back, not sure..
By blowing on some of the howlers I had on hand some of them produce a higher and louder note than others. And there where some that where louder on the low end of the scale and not so good at the top end..
I may look into this more or I may not...

[ June 14, 2010, 10:47 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

---

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 15, 2010, 04:58 AM:
 
You know I've been going to the ear doc for a few months now and have been getting a pretty good edumacation on how sounds destroys hearing.

I also followed the OSHA dude around my shop watching the DB meter on various sounds.

Keep your day job.
 

---

Posted by JohnLK (Member # 1978) on June 15, 2010, 05:34 AM:
 
TA, I have always thought it would be interesting to find out what the Db reading would be on muzzle blast using different powders. To my ears IMR 4064 sounds different than Varget in a short 243win barrel. IMR 4064 seems to have a deep low blast and Varget seems to have a louder and sharper blast. In a 6mm-223 H335 has a louder muzzle blast than BR 2015. It may be interesting to find out.
 

---

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on June 15, 2010, 05:50 AM:
 
Cool!!!...............We can keep Tim busy all summer.

I'd also like to know how loud a Bull Frog is if you have time.
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 15, 2010, 07:08 AM:
 
No bull-frogs here but I could use krust as a substitute.
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 15, 2010, 08:42 AM:
 
well I tested it again and even used the 22-250 ackley. I checked it at 30 ft. again and also at 5 ft. from the meter. I also called the company office and asked the safety director about the sound meter and he told me its sent in annualy to be checked over and to check calibration. He said there should be a sticker on the top of meter to the front side.. If you look at the video you will see it. So I don't know why OSHA has a higher reading than what I'm getting. I'll show todays test results later today.....
 

---

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on June 15, 2010, 09:00 AM:
 
NO BULLFROGS??????

My Gawd, man; forget hunting coyotes and have Andy take you out frog gigging & collecting morel mushrooms. With a little homemade wine on the side, there is no finer meal to be had!!!!

...........and have Lance tag along with the video camera.

Maybe set some limb-lines for catfish while you're at it.
 

---

Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on June 15, 2010, 09:17 AM:
 
I'd like to know how loud Kelly Snores. I slept in the same tent with him. I am fully not exaggerating...he might could break the thing!!!
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 15, 2010, 10:01 AM:
 
Ok. I called the company that makes the sound meter. I found out I over looked something as far as checking the sound on the rifles..
Tom is correct to a certain degree, some rifles are louder than others and some are louder than some of the sounds from the E-caller.
The mistake I made was when testing a sound like a gun shot I need to have the meter set to fast mode for this, I did not and corrected it and re-tested the rifles. Later on I'll post the results..
Also while I was on the phone with the company spokesman that ***** the meters I explained to him what I was doing as far as testing the sound from the E-caller. He said what I'm doing does have merit and they also do simular when a Industrial park goes up or a city has a race-car track near by and so on. Cities/towns/ state/ county all have some sort of ordence for sound polution or how much noise is allowed..
I also asked him about the fast setting and if I need to use it for checking the E-caller and he said no its not needed for that so my findings on that part still stand..Later...
 

---

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 15, 2010, 10:19 AM:
 
At one of the HM campouts in Seligman, there was a red tent and someone in that tent was snoring. What a racket! I think Kelly admitted to being the guilty party? Awesome!

Good hunting. LB
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 15, 2010, 11:30 AM:
 
I did a search for snoreing records and came up with this:

quote:

---

I thought some of you would be interested in the contest for America's
loudest snorer especially if you're a snorer, or if you are affected
by someone in your family who snores. The snoring experts at Breathe
Right company are interested in finding the loudest snorer in America
in hopes of setting a new world record. The Guinness Book of World
Records lists Melvin Switzer of South Hampton, New England as the
record holder for the loudest snore. The company is seeking out
contestants for its "Search for America's Loudest Snorer" contest.
Participants can enter via the following easy ways - the Web site,
www.breatheright.com, a toll-free number, an e-mail, or a letter.
Official contest rules and deadline are on the site. One grand prize
winner will receive a year supply of the Breathe Right products,
$10,000 bedroom makeover, and a trip to Super Bowl XXXVII in San
Diego, including two tickets for the game, airfare and hotel.

---

quote:

---

I don't think you guys realize how much the sound is reduced when you add 10, 20, 30 ft into the picture so I ran another test with my E-caller..

---

Actually, what I didn't realize was just how much friggin' free time you have. What'd you do? Quit your ditch diggin' gig?
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 15, 2010, 01:57 PM:
 
Can't build roads out of mudd...
 

---

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on June 15, 2010, 04:13 PM:
 
Tim,

You are the one not paying attention...

"Measurements in db(A) are widespread and convenient but you must remember that they are a compromise and tell us nothing about the frequency content of a noise. The ear can tell a difference between a washing machine and a telephone buzzer because their sounds have a very different structure. But such different sounds may give identical readings in dB(A)."

Frequency content, among other things, is pitch!
And pitch has nothing to do with readings given in db(A).

The "timber" of a howl changes throughout the length of a vocalization, and timber is part of what comprises amplitude, and amplitude is what the big A (in db(A)) stands for.

I think you are mistakenly associating this, as pitch.

I dunno where y'all talked about audible triggers to howling, but given what I know about howling response, in dogs and coyotes, and what I understand about sound, I'd say the trigger is "resonance"... harmonic resonance to be specific.
It's not about frequency, but about how sound waves diverge from their source and blend back together as they expand and refract, and how they are blended within the ears of a canine and onward to the brain (because of "stereoscopic" hearing).
It's not just the siren, but the siren and the echo of the siren, that makes 'em howl.

But, that's a whole 'nother can of worms I don't care to open, in this context.
Other than to say that it just shows what you don't know, and that's probably why you're not sure about much of what you're saying.

Answers, in life, are often much easier to find with your eyes and ears open... and your mouth closed.

Krusty
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 15, 2010, 08:04 PM:
 

quote:

---

"Measurements in db(A) are widespread and convenient but you must remember that they are a compromise and tell us nothing about the frequency content of a noise.

---

quote:

---

The ear can tell a difference between a washing machine and a telephone buzzer because their sounds have a very different structure. But such different sounds may give identical readings in dB(A)."

---

Yes you are correct but I'm not compareing washing machines and telephone buzzers. i"m just testing the sounds of a E-caller and hand calls for loudness and how far the sound travels and how loud it is..

Anyway I messed up of the rifle sound test and re-did it and here are the results of what it should be..
[URL= [/UR L]]

[ June 15, 2010, 08:12 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

---

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on June 15, 2010, 08:56 PM:
 
Tim,

What makes you believe that meter can read frequencies?

Oh, so now your an expert on how open reed calls make sound are ya... don't even go there, with ME, dude.

If you are getting an ambient reading of 70db(A), and there's no change in that from your voice, something is wrong here.

Just give up, you're only digging a hole now.

Krusty
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 15, 2010, 09:39 PM:
 

quote:

---

If you are getting an ambient reading of 70db(A), and there's no change in that from your voice, something is wrong here.

---

quote:

---

Just give up, you're only digging a hole now.

---

If I'm digging the hole then why are you standing in the bottom of it???

quote:

---

Oh, so now your an expert on how open reed calls make sound are ya... don't even go there, with ME, dude.

---

Nope not a expert. I did take two identical calls and compare them on the meter though and I may go into this later if I have time or I may not. Oh for shits and giggles I also compared youre call to some others, maybe I'll tell you how it did and maybe not..LOL
 

---

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on June 15, 2010, 09:54 PM:
 
Tim,

It's not my call, it's one I made... and I thought you didn't like it anymore, and were going to mail it back to me?

So... unless you plan on sending it back, I don't give a rat's ass what you do with it, or the results.
That includes attempts to call uncallable coyotes.

You'd probably do the test wrong, anyways.

Krusty
 

---

Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on June 15, 2010, 10:25 PM:
 
I had an idea...

Tim, Please read the manual before you do any more testing or analysing. I think reading the specs on that meter will explain some of the reasons your readings are not accurate.

The frequency range is very limited, 31.5Hz to 8KHz, far less than even a human can hear. Sampling needs to be setup for each scenario as well... as in "A" or "C", fast or slow response.

extech sound meter manual

I realize you were trying to do this to see what sound levels might be in different locations and distances and how that might affect a coyotes response but that meter won't do what you are trying to achieve.

Krusty might have come down on you a little hard but he does know what he's talking about.

Nikonut

Edited for spelling...

[ June 15, 2010, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: Nikonut ]
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 15, 2010, 11:00 PM:
 

quote:

---

Tim, Please read the manual before you do any more testing or analysing. I think reading the specs on that meter will explain some of the reasons your readings are not accurate.

The frequency range is very limited, 31.5Hz to 8KHz, far less than even a human can hear. Sampling needs to be setup for each scenario as well... as in "A" or "C", fast or slow response.

extech sound meter manual

I realise you were trying to do this to see what sound levels might be in different locations and distances and how that might affect a coyotes response but that meter won't do what you are trying to achieve.

---

Nikonut: Yep thats the same manual I have that you posted a link to.
The wife read the manual when I first started testing and ran the meter at the time we where only testing the sounds from the caller and she had used the right settings for this.. So no error there on the caller sound travel.. Ok!
Where I ran into trouble was testing the report of the rifles and was'nt sure about the fast setting to I called the company the ***** the meter, like said before he mentioned I have to use the fast setting for the rifle report but not the caller sounds. This was corrected and by looking at the video you can see that. Ok!

What I'm trying to do is establish a "pattern" for how sounds travel and how loud and get a "rough" idea how far. This has been done correctly and now I have a good idea of where the sound is and where it is'nt. I also wanted to know how much the wind affects the sound and I also found this out. Now I know..
I also know that my 17 Pred. is'nt as loud as the 22-250 ackly and by how much.
I also checked out the WT to see what Bill had for dB and my test came out to what he said it does so I must be doing something right. Right!!
Oh and I went out today and checked the lawn mower and phone to see if the meter was close to what the hand book was saying and this checked out good as well..

If you don't want to know thats fine with me, but now I know. Not looking for exacts but close projection..
Its kinda interesting to run sounds through the meter and compare to the ones that work really well and the sounds that seem to work better on windier days. Now I know..Later...
 

---

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on June 16, 2010, 12:27 AM:
 
Since the frequency range of this particular meter is so limited, we might as well consider it "partially deaf."

So... There's a reason open reed calls were loudest at around the middle of the reed, in your tests... because the meter was deaf to any of the rest of the major components of the sound at most other parts of the full range of a call.

While the oscilation of the reed and the way that moves the air is the main way a handcall creates sound, it is not the only sound a call makes.
The reed slapping against the toneboard creates sound (approx. half of the frequency at which the air is caused to vibrate through pressure variations), and the air being forced through the call also does.
Your meter may have been measuring these constituants, not the actual "business section" of the full spectral fingerprint.

For instance, let's look at ultra-sonic calls (like a Tenterfield whistle¹, which is not to be confused with a button whistle), or a common dog training whistle.

Slydog talked about calls needing to have an upper threshold of around 15,000 hertz (15Khz), to be effective.
*Though I don't know if this frequency was part of the "business section" either, or the just funny pages.

Common dog whistles operate at between 16Khz and 22Khz, with only those portions below 20Khz audible to the human ear.
The Tenterfield whistles likewise produce frequencies in the higher end and beyond human hearing, but unlike a dog whistle they emit a large amount of audible "noise" not unlike that of the air rushing through an open reed call.

Few sounds are tonally "pure." Even a single note played on a musical instrument (your high C for example) has a multi-faceted spectral fingerprint.

You meter is missing range, as compared to the human ear and that produced by open reed calls, at the upper and lower levels.
So how it hears (or more correctly, doesn't hear) sounds, made by calls, is erroneously affecting your results, especially as these results relate to the hearing of canines.

EVERY SINGLE BIT OF THE RANGE OF A CANINE'S HEARING ABILITY, FALLS OUTSIDE THAT OF YOUR METER!
A coyote connot hear, what your meter can!

And likewise, every bit of a canine's range of hearing is above Sly's magical 15Khz too!

Dogs, and (I am supposing) coyotes too, best hear frequencies of 40Khz on up through about 60Khz... they don't hear what your meter does, and your meter doesn't hear what they do.

*There must be layers of the spectral fingerprints of calls and dog whistles, that aren't accounted for, or they wouldn't be able to hear them at all?

What's THAT do for the validity of your tests, and Sly's?

Here we are, after four pages of blah blah blah, and all we can say with any absoluteness, is the same thing Doppler proved almost 200 years ago... sound produced by a stationary source can be warped by the wind, or warped by objects that are emitting a sound moving through space.

Like Luckyjack stated, we certainly didn't need all this bullshit to get to that point.

¹A Tenterfield whistle is used, very briefly, in this video, and you should instantly realize there's something missing in the sound they create.
*Other information you may want to know about the video... 12ga, BB shot, 23 yards, it's Australia.

Krusty

*Edit to fix hyperlink and smilie

[ June 16, 2010, 12:32 AM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
 

---

Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on June 16, 2010, 05:45 AM:
 
I only snore when I am happy or wore out.
LB I remember seeing a slight ripple coming from the top of your tent...take care guys.

[ June 16, 2010, 05:45 AM: Message edited by: Kelly Jackson ]
 

---

Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on June 16, 2010, 06:38 AM:
 
Tim, maybe the problem is your eyes and not your ears. You say "If you look at the meter the setting is on 80-130 dB. Simple enough!!!". It looks to me like your meter is set 30db to 130db.
 

---

Posted by JohnLK (Member # 1978) on June 16, 2010, 10:10 AM:
 

quote:

---

And likewise, every bit of a canine's range of hearing is above Sly's magical 15Khz too!

Dogs, and (I am supposing) coyotes too, best hear frequencies of 40Khz on up through about 60Khz... they don't hear what your meter does, and your meter doesn't hear what they do.

---

It can be seen that the lowest intensity detected differs between the two studies; I place greater reliance on the Heffner study because it is more current and because he is a widely published and respected audiology researcher. It can also be seen that the greatest sensitivity (i.e. the frequencies that can be detected at the lowest intensities) is in the frequency range of 4-10 kHz. One dog (the Poodle) heard a tone at the low frequency of 40 Hz, but an intensity of 59 dB was required for it to be detected; most of the other dogs didn't respond until the stimulus frequency reached 62.5 Hz. Three dogs (the Poodle, Saint Bernard, and Chihuahua) heard a tone at the highest frequency of 46 kHz, requiring intensities of 64-73 dB. On the other hand, the Poodle heard a 4 kHz tone when it was -4 dB (since dB are logarithmic units based on a ratio of the stimulus intensity compared to a standard intensity, any stimulus smaller than the standard results in a ratio less than one, and the logarithm of a number smaller than one is a negative number; therefore a -4 dB stimulus intensity is a VERY soft one!) and an 8 kHz tone when it was -3.5 dB. There was no systemic relation seen among the four breeds between high frequency hearing sensitivity and head size, body weight, or tympanic membrane area.
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 16, 2010, 10:41 AM:
 
So are you saying the sound meter I have cannot pick up the sound made from a Tenterfield whistle??????

And what about a dog whistle?? Is there a freq. it makes at a certain setting that the meter won't pick up?????
 

---

Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on June 16, 2010, 11:00 AM:
 
Chad, your my hero.

Kelly, we need to have a snore off. We can get TA to sit between our tents all night and rate it with his new toy.

TA, Im glad yo. starte. thi. thre. . Its been ver. enter.
 

---

Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on June 16, 2010, 11:39 AM:
 
I've been accused a time or two also. My snoring got so bad I wasn't breathing I guess. Whenever I slept too long I'd wake up with a moster headache. Dad had the same problem and had to use an oxygen machine. It all got better when he lost a bunch of weight. I've been using the machine and it really works great!

I know I need to lose some weight and be more concerned with my health ...but I need to maintain my figure you know!
 

---

Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on June 16, 2010, 01:52 PM:
 
sounds like a plan Andy.
 

---

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on June 16, 2010, 02:41 PM:
 
John,

I'm not aware of Heffner's study, indeed most of my knowledge of sound and soundwave formation stems around the fluid dynamics of racing engines.
In other words I don't have a deep knowledge base of how sound is perceived, but of how it behaves.

As a predator call maker, I'm interested in learning more about it, though, so I'll have to see if we have Heffner's work in my college's database.
It might even be a subject of study I can gain credit for, as well.

I'll have see what I can come up with, as far as information on the hearing of coyotes (and other wild predators), while I'm at it.
Already, it sounds like the beginnings of one of the many essays I'll have to write.

Thanks.

Tim,

I'm saying that the meter you have cannot pick up the main constituant of the fingerprint of a Tenterfield whistle, the whistling itself (the business section), in fact our ears don't even hear most of that.
Your meter falls far short of the range of human hearing (Nikon already said that), so if it can pick up anything, it's the "noise" of the air rushing through the whistle, not the resonant vibration (that is the whistle).

Krusty
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 16, 2010, 03:06 PM:
 
I ran the sound of the whistle that you posted a link to and tested on the meter and also took a dog whistle and blew into it with it turned all the way in and worked my way out to the end and also tested on the meter..
So the noise I'm picking up on both is just air passing through the whistle..

quote:

---

I'm saying that the meter you have cannot pick up the main constituant of the fingerprint of a Tenterfield whistle, the whistling itself (the business section), in fact our ears don't even hear most of that.

---

Could it be the human ear is not hearing it cause its not there to begin with..
The meter will pick up a sound as it goes up in scale or freq. (31.5Hz-8KHz)
Does this whistle go past 8KHz???
How far out does this high freq. sound reach???
Does anyone use it for calling coyotes and if so what are the results?????


When the guy in the video blew on the whistle as he blew for that short time the meter was picking up a reading the whole time..

How many Hz or KHz is a coyote howl or the high pitched screams of a rabbit????

[ June 16, 2010, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

---

Posted by JohnLK (Member # 1978) on June 16, 2010, 05:07 PM:
 
Krusty,I just found that on Ask.com when I put in Frequency Hearing Ranges in Dogs and it was the frist thing that came up.I thought it was kind of interesting is all.
 

---

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on June 16, 2010, 05:45 PM:
 
Tim dude,

Try to read the words, and follow along...

"Your meter falls far short of the range of human hearing (Nikon already said that), so if it can pick up anything, it's the "noise" of the air rushing through the whistle, not the resonant vibration (that is the whistle).

I have no doubt that there is sound that comes from a Tenterfield whistle, and a dog whistle, that the human ear does not pick up, but if you want to turn that into a conspiracy theory, be my guest.

I don't have Goldwave on this computer, so I can't show you an illustration of the spectral fingerprint of a typical predator call sound, or a dog whistle. Nor am I going to pull numbers out of my ass, and guess the frequency ranges these sounds are comprised of.
Perhaps someone else with Goldwave (or a similar program), can help with that?
*But since these programs are aimed at human listeners, I doubt they'll show frequencies beyond that of our own hearing.

But I think there's little to no doubt, outside of in your mind, that a dog whistle creates sound not heard by the human ear. Ultra-sound exists.

I don't know why the manufacturer (of that meter) would give misleading specs as to what frequencies it can and cannot detect, so I'm gonna take their word for it... therefore, in my opinion, it's completely deaf to frequencies outside it's range of capabilities, period.

Krusty
 

---

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on June 16, 2010, 06:18 PM:
 
Tim,

Here ya go... these frequencies start at the limits the manufacturer lists for that meter.

See how many you can hear, and how many the meter can.

My own hearing gave up after 12Khz.

Those of you with kids, see how much higher their hearing can go, to prove to Tim these frequncies do exist (help us out here Loco).

Krusty

[ June 16, 2010, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
 

---

Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on June 16, 2010, 07:44 PM:
 
22.4kHz kills my ears! WOW! That hurt...

Funny part is I couldn't hear anything from 14 on up until then... LOL

I bet Tim can hear 22.4kHz as well!

Nikonut
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 16, 2010, 08:07 PM:
 
Krusty:
I agree with you there are higher frequency sounds that we cannot hear. But the frequency from hand calls or E-caller and youre fox whistle is'nt one of them, most of it canbe heard.

quote:

---

I don't have Goldwave on this computer, so I can't show you an illustration of the spectral fingerprint of a typical predator call sound,

---

Is this what you are refering to??
[URL= [/UR L]]
If you watch the sound bar on the meter it will pick up most if not all of it. The digtal read out is a little slow so it just picks out the loudest but the sound bar catches all of it.. So you need to watch both and listen to the sound being played.. "This is the point I'm trying to get across the meter can read most if not all sounds used for calling Pred." and pick up on the freq. as well..

quote:

---

See how many you can hear, and how many the meter can.

My own hearing gave up after 12Khz.

Those of you with kids, see how much higher their hearing can go, to prove to Tim these frequncies do exist (help us out here Loco).

---

quote:

---

My wife can hear all but the last one and my son can hear all of them...
The sound meter can also pick up on them but gives a very low sound reading for the last frequency ( at or less than 30 dB )

---

Funny thing about that last sound Tim... there isn't any sound in that last one! ...GOTCHA! LOL

Nikonut
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 16, 2010, 09:43 PM:
 
In the last sound there is a click on and off and thats what the meter picked up on. Like I said it was at 30 dB or less. My son was the only one that thought he heard it but like I said he proably just heard the click on and off also....

Most of the sounds ran around 70'-90's...

[ June 16, 2010, 09:49 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

---

Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on June 17, 2010, 05:03 PM:
 
I'm far to lazy to read all of this "stuff".

Tim, were you coloring Easter eggs in one of your earlier posts?
 

---

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 17, 2010, 05:10 PM:
 
I've read almost all of it. I should be paid by the hour.
 

---

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on June 17, 2010, 06:09 PM:
 
Hell I had to write my share, or more correctly Andy's share, for free, too!

It was worth every second of my time.

Krusty
 

---

Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on June 17, 2010, 06:30 PM:
 
Your on Kelly. Hey, farts dont count. So, we will need the readouts. Any sudden spikes will most likely be a fart, so we will have to work off the average for the night for the championship.
 

---

UBB.classic^TM 6.3.0