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Author
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Topic: gullible??
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted October 16, 2008 06:07 PM
I had a Sako action laying around and a new gunsmith in town. I shot one of his rifles that was an absolute one holer. It was a 6.5x47 Lapua necked to 6mm. So he convinced me to let him put the same on my old action which I thought was fine. He even let me use his stuff and let me chamber and thread it and flute it. I have always wanted to do some of that stuff. So it turned out really nice (I'll post pics later) but then I got around to ordering dies and brass. Dies, Redding- $160.
Brass, Lapua- $94 per hundred
All for a glorified 243/6mm Rem.
Sometimes I'm really a dumbass. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
It had better shoot.
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
Posts: 1034 | From: out yonder | Registered: Apr 2007
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 16, 2008 06:33 PM
We all are, at one time or another. But, just think, nobody else on your block has one! Whoopie! You bought a dream, everybody does it, sooner or later.
That's almost the entire motivation behind all of this wildcat and Ackley stuff. Ew! am I cool, or what?
There's almost zero justification, from a performance standpoint, to use exotic chamberings. Strictly a personal opinion, BTW.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted October 16, 2008 09:02 PM
Have fun with the new rifle Cal.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 17, 2008 09:13 AM
Dang, Tim. I thought you would take the bait a little more aggressively? Ain't that 17Predator the greatest thing since sliced bread? lol
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted October 17, 2008 09:36 AM
Not the greatest! But dam close.. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
I just want the coyote dead with minium pelt damage. For Cal's type of work it should be perfect. Cal don't forget to put a Kenton BDC dial on it..
[ October 17, 2008, 09:39 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Q-Wagoner
FREE TRIAL MEMBERSHIP
Member # 33
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posted October 18, 2008 12:13 AM
Last year I also built a 6 x 47 Lapua for the same reason. They are one-holers if they are built right. Mine is on a blueprinted 700 Rem. I bushed the firing pin also and replaced the factory spring. I put a Krieger 1-8 on it in a Remington Varmint contour.
Honestly I have not shot the gun a whole lot yet but I have shot it enough to know that it lives up to its reputation. I still have breathing room running 105 Bergers at 2950 fps with H-4350.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posts: 617 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted October 18, 2008 04:47 AM
Well that makes my day Q. At least now I know that I'm not the only coyote hunter in the US with one. Mine is a 1 in 10 and I planned on staying in the 75 to 90 grain range. I'm afraid if a guy gets to shooting the super heavy bullets you will lose expansion and stopping power. The gunsmith leaned heavily to the faster twist and bigger bullets but I settled for middle ground.
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 18, 2008 06:32 AM
I think that's a valid concern, Cal. But, look who's talking? I just took posession of a 243AI with a 1-8 twist designed for 105/107s. Kinda blows my cover, don't it, Tim? We gullibles <sigh> Pursuing the perfect dream rifle.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted October 18, 2008 08:53 AM
The perfect 243 ackley is with a 58 gr. V-max. But what do i know..
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 18, 2008 11:27 AM
Krusty stole your password, Tim!
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted October 18, 2008 06:44 PM
Holy bombshells Batman. Loaded a few 68 grain Bergers today and just kept creeping up the velocity. Finally punctured a primer at 3995 fps. Backed it off to 3800 and shot several groups which weren't all that impressive (around and inch) but the velocity deal has me all screwed up. I am 150 fps faster than my .243 with not much pressure. Out of a case thats quite a bit smaller???? There is something to be said for efficiency I guess. I was shooting some old 4320 that I had. I tried some other powders but they were too slow for the small case. Tommorrow I am going to try some Varget as that seems to be what most of the internet experts say works the best with it. And I want to shoot a slightly heavier bullet (75s or 80s) but the 68s were what I had on hand.
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted October 19, 2008 06:39 AM
A buddy of mine runs 4350 (don't know which) and 105 gr Berger VLD's and gets to 1000 yards in 22MOA, the accuracy is outstanding.
This ain't your ordinary 243!
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Q-Wagoner
FREE TRIAL MEMBERSHIP
Member # 33
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posted October 19, 2008 11:09 PM
Yes 4350 is the go to powder it seams for the heavy bullets. Yes again to the unusually high velocities. The guy that built mine says that it is do to case design, tight tolerances and a small rifle primer. For as much as the damn brass costs I am not going to be get carried away though.
Hey Cal you have to try some 55gr Nolslers in it. They should really smoke. LOL I think the lead is too long in mine but I may give them shot to see what happens.
Good hunting.
Q,
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 20, 2008 01:40 AM
I don't know, sounds like smoke and mirrors to me? I can't really figure a couple of sharp guys , well; never mind. And, yeah! That brass is spendy. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted October 20, 2008 05:46 AM
Ok.......now that you guys have your toys making noise, I have to call bullshit on the 'gullible & dumbass' parts. Ever since the first caveman squatting by a fire realized that a stick for a club was better for beating creepy-crawly things than his fist, man has been looking for a 'better club'. It's in our DNA to do so. It's why we evolved as a species from Cro-Magnon into Homo-Sapiens. We would be less than men if we did not continue searching for 'a better club'. Civilization itself has often depended on who had the 'better club'. Be proud of your new club; a thousand generations of ancestors are smiling down at you from their campfires in the sky!!!!
........And no, none of this worked on my wife either, the last time a new club showed up in the gun case.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted October 20, 2008 06:47 AM
Yep, Leonard. It just don't make sense. On the other hand, like Quinton noted a 55 Btip or 58 Vmax would do some strange and amazing things at well over 4 grand. I'm thinking about a more middle ground bullet. 65 to 75 grainers maybe. Maybe the 68 grain Berger, although I'm not as happy with them since they quit the MEF varmint bullet. Now all I can get is the match version and it just don't perform quite the same. Shoots well, but not as much expansion.
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
Posts: 1034 | From: out yonder | Registered: Apr 2007
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 20, 2008 10:42 AM
Here's the thing, Cal. I already have a screamer that I take very good care of. My 22-250Ack. with a 65 gr. bullet has a MV of 3925. Did I drive 55Bergers @ 4400? Well yeah, but that's another story.
Now, if you will notice, that's a fairly heavy bullet for the bore size(224)? Now what sort of down range numbers do you think you will get from a low BC 58 gr. 6mm bullet? It will probably drop like a rock compared to those in the midrange, 75/90 grain? As Quinton mentioned, depending on the amount of leade ahead of your chamber, I'd be careful about using too many short bullets and cooking that what amounts to freebore, and the basis of the Weatherby sensational numbers and possibly accuracy will suffer?
I would advise you to check in with the proper bullet for your intended purpose as soon as possible and seat them as far out as possible and forget your brief fling with 4 grand. As the man said; you will always have Paris.
Good hunting. LB
PS and if you don't get my movie line, (above), it's because you are just a kid. lol
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted October 20, 2008 01:08 PM
"There is something to be said for efficiency I guess."
There really is. But, there is even more to be said for a system that lets you run just stupid high chamber pressures and keep all your fingers and eyes intact, LOL! That is really due to the factors that Q mentioned - good strong brass of modern design, good tight chamber, small primer etc. Don't get me wrong, efficiency is real, just look at the .22 LR for proof, but what you are seeing with that velocity really is more a product of getting away with high pressures, in my opinion. I just started to say that I'd be more inclined towards caution while hot rodding an old Sako than I would a 700, but then I remembered my L579 6AI, so never mind about that...
"Now what sort of down range numbers do you think you will get from a low BC 58 gr. 6mm bullet? It will probably drop like a rock compared to those in the midrange, 75/90 grain?"
Not quite. As far as trajectory (shooting flat, vs. dropping like a rock) goes, it's all about velocity. At least at "normal" coyote shooting ranges, anyway. The lighter bullets give up wind to heavier ones (much less than most people think, though), but they will always shoot flatter, generally out to at least 400 yards or so. Simply because you can get them going faster. In my slow twist 6/284 I'm using 55 B-tips at 4250 fps or 58 Vmax at 4200 fps and they both shoot flatter than 70 gr. B-tips at 3900 fps, to beyond 500 yards (I've not bothered to check, any further than that). The 70's have only a very slight advantage in the wind, too - like a calculated 17" of drift vs. 18" of drift at 500 yards. Nothing wrong with using the mid weight 70's, mind you - as this can all be flipped on it's head and we can point out that the 70's do have a slight wind advantage, do have a significant energy advantage, and are "almost" as flat shooting as the 55's.
Either one, 70's or 55's are going to shoot way flatter out to normal coyote shooting distances than the heavy for caliber VLD type bullets though. That's why I don't quite understand all the guys I read about building "long range" predator rigs, using fast twists and real heavy VLD bullets. When what they really mean by "long range" is maybe 500 yards? Yeah, the wind is a big deal at 500 and a way bigger deal as you get further than that, but under typical coyote hunting conditions and typical coyote shooting distances, I've found I can usually ignore the wind for the most part. Saying "ignore the wind" is pure blasphemy, in the true long range game, or even in the real precision accuracy short range game. But my experience, real life, shooting coyotes in the conditions I normally hunt and the ranges I normally shoot, ignoring the wind won't bite me very often. The guys who talk a lot about using .243's with 70's to "buck the prairie breeze" are the same guys saying that .17's are "no good in the wind" and they don't know what they are talking about in either example (my .17 drifts LESS than a .243 Win. 70 gr. load...). My opinion, a guy is just WAY better off going lighter/faster for the flatter trajectory if he really plans on shooting many coyotes between say 300 and 500 yards - which is what I think most guys really mean when they say "long range". If a guy is REALLY serious about LONG range, then of course go fast twist and heavy bullets. But I'd wager that 90% of the guys that build those rigs for coyotes, will never even take a shot at "long range", say past 500 or 600 yards. Nothing more than my opinion, of course.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted October 20, 2008 01:10 PM
Oh, and I run on at the mouth for all that and forget what I really started to post.
I'm jealous of your new rig Cal! And especially getting to chamber your own barrel. That's just way too cool. Neat cartridge, too.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 20, 2008 02:03 PM
Well, I'm glad that you checked in Dave, always interested in your take on the subject at hand.
Now, my little rig is intended as a dual purpose 1000 yard comp, & long range coyote killer and I don't mean 400.
But, one thing I wonder is the killing ability of the fast light weight bullets, if there is truth to the surface splash argument, even if the velocity advantage cancels the higher BC of a heavier bullet but not VLD bullets, just good hunting bullets with a decent shape. I will tell you the truth, I do not trust light bullets for killing versus heavier bullets, but not ultra heavy bullets. Cal has a 1-10 twist, very conventional, so he should be able to handle just about anything reasonable?
But, high pressure is high pressure, and driving 58/68 grain bullets at four grand will degrade accuracy sooner than later. I just don't like extreme stuff when there is a price to pay. That's one thing an old man on a fixed income thinks about, new barrels every year, I need to make them last a while.
I guess I envy people that emphasize performance over practicality, but I need to buy food, too.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Dan Carey
unknown comic
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posted October 20, 2008 03:16 PM
Everyone should have one or maybe 2 or more depending on ones expectations in life. I've had more than my share of new and improved dead beat cartridges. Time always weeds out the wannabes and cherishes the real deals.
To make Leonard fell better about his choice. here's a picture of my 243 AI. Its built on a Remington action as my gunsmith does all the action work for free. The barrel is a Shilen as I get them at a very attractive price and again my gunsmith does the work for free.
[ October 20, 2008, 08:34 PM: Message edited by: Dan Carey ]
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted October 20, 2008 03:19 PM
Leonard,
Not to be too blunt about this, but... You are getting an EIGHT twist .243AI, correct? Believe me, my 13 twist 6/284 barrel pushing 55's at 4250, is going to last longer than your 8 twist pushing 107's at 3200 will. And, probably much longer. Fast twist, long heavy bullets, anything approaching a low expansion ratio (and the .243AI is), and we're talking extremely short barrel life. And, I'm talking from experience here, having worn out an 8 twist .243AI barrel (and an 8 twist .22-250 barrel), while my 13 twist .243AI and my 12 twist .22-250AI are both still going strong with more than twice as many rounds down the pipe - even running them at 4K+.
Those long heavy bullets in a fast twist are just plain finicky in general. But the RPM generated by the 8 twist is what kills the barrel life. Compromise the integrity of the jacket just a little bit, and the bullet wants to go "poof", when it is spinning in the neigborhood of 275,000 RPM. So, it takes a great deal less fire cracking and throat damage to end the life of a fast twist barrel, than it does a slow twist barrel, all else being equal.
But... Who cares? People shouldn't worry so much about barrel life anyway.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted October 20, 2008 03:36 PM
Lota of good info. I don't worry much about barrel life and I am on a pretty darned short shoestring when it comes to guns and stuff. But as an example my 243 I had built 10 years ago, a 1 in 12 and I have shot somewhere in the nieghborhood of 3000 rounds. Alot of those rounds killed coyotes. Most were 68 grain bullets at 3650 fps, some were 55s at 4000 and all kinds of other experiments. But in the end it still shoots as good as it ever did and it has killed a pile of coyotes and lasted a long time. 3000 rounds maybe isn't much to a prairie dog hunter but to a coyote hunter its a long time. But I am prone to doing just about what Leonard said. Getting a 70 grain bullet doing around 3700. Thats what I'm used to. I know the wind drift, the drop, etc. and knowing that stuff kills more coyotes.
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted October 20, 2008 03:59 PM
Sounds like a Man that has a Plan to me . Sounds like a good plan, too.
And... Upon a bit further reflection, I may be a little over stating it to say my 13 twist 6/284 will last "much" longer than an 8 twist .243AI. That 6/284 burns quite a bit more powder than the .243AI case. And that makes quite a difference in barrel life. I do think the slow twist 6/284 will outlast a fast twist .243AI by at least a couple hundred rounds though.
But a better way of making my point, would be to note that my 13 twist .243AI has 1400 rounds down it, most of those 68 gr. Fowler's at just under 4K, and it is still going strong (70 gr. TNT's at 3900 still hold together). My 8 twist .243AI shooting 105's and 107's at around 3200 fps was completely toast at about 1200 rounds.
My only point being, really, that velocity (4K+) in and of itself, isn't a very good indicator of expected barrel life. Those big heavy VLD's and the fast twist barrels needed to shoot them, combined with a fairly large capacity for bore case, aren't putting up big velocity numbers, but they are notorious for short barrel life.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted October 20, 2008 07:09 PM
I usually keep my mouth shut when you fellas get to talking rifles, at least the technical aspects of them. I must admit though, I breathed a sigh of relief after reading DAAs post, becasue it follows my beliefs to a "T".
Every time I read a thread,and it wanders into the realm of the importance of BC, I want to hurl. BC is so far off my radar screen of things of importance pretaining to my rifles, it's almost inconsequential. Ive always believed, that at "hunting" ranges,and I mean under 300 yards as far as calling coyotes,BC is the least of a guys worries. Dave stated the arguement as well as anyone can, he's the guru as far as Im concerned, and speed, aka time of flight will up to modest ranges, trump the VLD shit.
He is absolutely right, when reading a post referring to the .17s faults in the wind, you can tell right off, the guy posting it has little if any knowledge of the .17 at 4K, versus whatever other caliber he is jawing about....good stuff DAA, you da man!
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