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Author
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Topic: If you could have only one coyote rifle..
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coyote whacker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 639
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posted August 01, 2008 02:30 PM
Rich also look at wind drift which is a concern for many callers in open areas a .204 wind drift is as follows 300- 9.72" 400- 18.55" 500- 31.06" and at 500 yrds remaining energy 285 FPE
Now look at a 22-250 with a52 grain bullet same speed 300- 9.45" 400- 17.97" and 500- 29.99" and retained energy 500- 385 FPE
Then look at the .243 with 80 grain going 600 FPS slower than either 2 mentioned. 300- 8.18" 400- 15.39" and 500- 25.21 and the most important is rerained energy at 500- 606 FPE.
While not even accounting elevation drop just windage and energy one can see why a little bigger is better for open country coyotes for sure/quick kills. Take it to 15 MPH and it gets even more tricky with those small pill's and I didn't even compute the little .17 in open country .
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This is done on my time and my dime. My views may differ from those of others!
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted August 01, 2008 03:49 PM
Those small pills don't drift as much as you think. I've shot my 22-250 ackley and 17 rem. side by side at targets on a windy day and the 17 only drifts one inch more than the 22-250 ackley.
1 inch is'nt going to make that much of a difference and it will still kill them out to 500 yds
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted August 01, 2008 04:25 PM
coyote whacker,
Yes sir, but some guys won't let a few facts sway em. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
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coyote whacker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 639
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posted August 01, 2008 05:19 PM
TA17 I can under stand but you can not deny physics.
You can see by the bal numbers you are correct on 20 cal the .17 might be the same, the problems are FT lbs of energy and when you take the wind up 5 mph it doesn't go up by adding half it is more than that!
Also on the .17 I'm betting you are in the low 200's of FPE with the little .17, not something I would have alot of confidance in shooting at 500 yrds on a coyote! Just me though I don't like runners or loosers.
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This is done on my time and my dime. My views may differ from those of others!
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted August 01, 2008 08:46 PM
My 17 has a little over 200 ft.pounds of energy at 500 yds.
The 17 cal bullet has less resistance compared to a larger bullet, and yet fragile enough to blow up inside and do damage to the coyote. The 17 is'nt trying to knock the coyote over just penetrate and kill it by damageing internal organs..
The best way to explain it is take a 1/2 steel plate, try to drill a hole with a 3/8" bit and then do the same with a smaller bit.
Less resistance for smaller bit so it will go through faster.. You can read all the books you want, it don't mean anything to me .. Just actual experience does.
Some say its too small for coyotes but i have a photo album of dead coyotes thats says different..
Use what you like and i'll use what works for me. There is a limit to how far i will shoot with mine and its somewhere around 550-600 yds... ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted August 01, 2008 09:35 PM
"Use what you like and i'll use what works for me. There is a limit to how far i will shoot with mine and its somewhere around 550-600 yds... "
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Now THAT's funny rat there, I don't care who you are. If ya can't laugh at that, then get the hell out of here.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
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coyote whacker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 639
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posted August 02, 2008 07:31 AM
resistance of a bullet? You actually think your little 17 is getting better penetration at long range than a heavier bullet with more FPE and less wind deflection?
Kenetic energy is what gives you penetration and how much speed you have left will determine what that bullet will do.
Good luck to you and good day.
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This is done on my time and my dime. My views may differ from those of others!
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RagnCajn
ADDS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
Member # 879
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posted August 02, 2008 10:25 AM
quote:
Kenetic energy is what gives you penetration
Kenetic energy is the amount of force required to move an object.
Sectional Density is what gives penetration.
[ August 02, 2008, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: RagnCajn ]
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TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
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posted August 02, 2008 12:01 PM
I'm a little late to the party, BUT hey, better late than never. Hope I didn't keep anyone waiting! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
If you would've asked me this about 20 years ago, my answer would've been different, and if you'd asked me this question just about 15 years ago, my answer would've been different,and if you would've asked me this same question about 5 years ago, my answer would've been different, BUT since we're here today and you're asking it now, I'll go with my little D-tech .204!
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Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
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coyote whacker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 639
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posted August 02, 2008 01:58 PM
Kinetic energy is used all the time to calculate relative penetration of an arrow with weight and speed as the variances or better or worse penetration.
Kinetic energy is the energy of motion. An object which has motion - whether it be vertical or horizontal motion - has kinetic energy. There are many forms of kinetic energy - vibrational (the energy due to vibrational motion), rotational (the energy due to rotational motion), and translational (the energy due to motion from one location to another). To keep matters simple, we will focus upon translational kinetic energy. The amount of translational kinetic energy (from here on, the phrase kinetic energy will refer to translational kinetic energy) which an object has depends upon two variables: the mass (m) of the object and the speed (v) of the object. The following equation is used to represent the kinetic energy (KE) of an object.
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This is done on my time and my dime. My views may differ from those of others!
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RagnCajn
ADDS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
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posted August 02, 2008 02:25 PM
Kinetic energy as related to an arrow determines how much force you are delivering on the mass of the arrow to penetrate the mass of the target.
A smaller diameter object will require less kinetic energy to penetrate an object than a large diameter object will require. It is the sectional density of the object that will determine how deep the penetration will be. If this was not the case, then we would use a tack hammer to drive bridge spikes through the beams.
Sectional density is what will determine the depth of penetration from a free flying bullet of equal speeds and weights. A 55 grain bullet from a 22 cal rifle will penetrate farther than a 55 grain 243 cal bullet if both bullets or of equal construction and velocities.
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted August 02, 2008 02:36 PM
well thanks for the college course on energy...
I went out today and did a little test..
I brought along my 17 pred with 30 gr. h.p. and my 22-250 ackley with 52 gr. A-max. Both guns are pushing the bullet along at 3950 fps. ( Avr. vel. tested on chrono.)
I set up a steel plate that was .342" thick.
The steel plate was shot at a 100 yds with both rifles, 2 shot groups. At 100 yds both bullets went all the way through the steel plate..
Next i shot both rifles at the steel plate at 600 yds, i had a bit of a S-E wind so i had to dial 2" in on the 22-250 ackley and also the same 2" on the 17 pred.. Once again two shot groups fired by both rifles, neither bullet penatrated the steel plate but the 17 left a little dent compared to the 22-250 ackley..
Next test was at 300 yds. and bullets from both rifles went into the steel plate but did not exit. The 17 gr bullet went the deepest of the two cal.
17 cal 30 gr, bullet depth= .330,.324"
22-250 ack. 52 gr. bullet depth= .223, .149"
The 22-250 ackley did make a larger dia. hole but did not go as deep as the 17 cal..
I'm sure we can agree that steel is stronger than flesh and that the 17 cal 30 gr, bullet is good enough for killing coyotes out to 500-600 yds.
The 52 gr. bullet out wieghed the 3o gr. bullet by 22 gr.'s so it should of gone deeper into the steel plate than the 17 cal did according to youre books on ft. lbs. of energy..
I don't have all the answers but i do know from experiance that the 17 will get er done...
I have a few pic's of steel plate so you can see for youre self the results... http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/IMG_1860.jpg[/IMG]] 
Two 17 cal holes fired at 300 on the left, one single hole made by the 22-250 ackley also at 300 yds.
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/IMG_1853.jpg[/IMG]] 
Pic of complete target, notice the 17 cal grouped a little tighter than the 22-250 ackley..
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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coyote whacker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 639
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posted August 02, 2008 03:39 PM
sectional density goes up with bullet weight so in this light it is apples and oranges!
You have more mass meaning more ft lbs of energy at extended ranges look it up on your bal program. It holds more energy as it is less effected by the outside force of wind/gravity.
Can you get a 52 grain .17 cal bullet?
At 500 yards your down to 136ft lbs of energy compared to the 385 of the 22-250 so I can't see how your test on steel would show an advantage of the .17? I would shoot Bal gel at those ranges and I'm betting you would see your 22-250 out performing your .17 at 500+ yards in penetration and impact power!
As far as arrows you need to find the right arrow at 30yrds+ that will give you decent FPS and good kinetic energy on impact. That is why they make different weight carbon arrows one can use depending on the bow lbs one needs to shoot. I always had better penetration shooting a 70lb bow with heavier arrows than lighter.It retains more of the energy than lighter arrows as the distance increases.
Bottom line there are many,many experianced shooters who would tell you a .17 or .20 cal is not a long range rifle for even coyotes, if one expects good clean kills a high% of the time. They are more effected by outside forces than larger projectiles and lack the retained energy at longer ranges or the BR guys would be shooting them due to little recoil.
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This is done on my time and my dime. My views may differ from those of others!
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RagnCajn
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posted August 02, 2008 03:54 PM
Never said a 17 cal bullet would be the best long range option. My point was that kenetic energy does not determine penetration. Sectional density does.
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted August 02, 2008 03:56 PM
quote:
At 500 yards your down to 136ft lbs of energy compared to the 385 of the 22-250 so I can't see how your test on steel would show an advantage of the .17? I would shoot Bal gel at those ranges and I'm betting you would see your 22-250 out performing your .17 at 500+ yards in penetration and impact power!
According to the tables i used i have a little bit more than 200 ft. pounds at 500 yds..
So who's ballistic tables are right???
If neither formula agrees with the other how do we know they are right to beginn with????
quote:
Bottom line there are many,many experianced shooters who would tell you a .17 or .20 cal is not a long range rifle for even coyotes,
How many would i have to kill in order to have this experiance???
Do these experianced shooters use 17 cal.s for hunting coyotes???
I've seen coyotes shot at various distances with 22-250, 243, 223. and a 300 weatherby mag. a bad hit is a bad hit no matter what you use.
The ballistic gell would show how far a bullet will penitrate.. I don't need mine to go through and through just inside where it needs to be to do the damage.. leaves only one hole to sew up instead of two...
One of the reason the BR guys use a 30 cal bullet has to do with the dia.. The 30 cal leaves a bigger hole for scoreing compared to a 17 cal bullet. A small miss with a 17 cal could put you out of the lead vrs. the 30 with its larger dia can keep you in the game...
Just for youre info i have a hand full of coyotes taken at 500-550 yds. but according to youre findings they should'nt be dead. ![[Confused]](confused.gif) ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
[ August 02, 2008, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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coyote whacker
Knows what it's all about
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posted August 03, 2008 06:58 AM
Tim give me the bullet weight,bullet BC& MV and I will run your exact load on 3 different bal programs to see if I can get 1 to give 200 ft lbs from a .17 at 500 yrds. I was using a standard load.
The 200- 600 yrd BR is being won by many who shoot 6mm-264 calibers far more than 27-30 calibers.
We will agree to disagree on the leathality of .17" and .20's at long range for high% of kills in open country and accuracy in winds compaired to other calibers for that 1 rifle choice as the question was posed. Good hunting and good day.
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This is done on my time and my dime. My views may differ from those of others!
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted August 03, 2008 09:38 AM
quote:
The 200- 600 yrd BR is being won by many who shoot 6mm-264 calibers far more than 27-30 calibers.
If you are talking group, then yes you are correct. I was refering to score where five targets are shot, one shot each....
I'm not saying the 17 is a long range rifle, but if i see a coyote in the field where i live i'm not going to pass up on him just because it 600 yds away...For me alot depends on the lay of the land and weather conditions and so on.. If it looks like i can't do it with the 17 cal then i will grab my 22-250 ackley...
Load info for my 17 pred. 30 gr. berger LTB or the 30 gr. woodchuck Gold, vel. 3950-4000. B.C. on the berger is .232 .........
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Dan Carey
unknown comic
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posted August 03, 2008 09:55 AM
Well, I feel bad now, my 17-223 only gets 3700 with a 30 grain bullet. Maybe time to build a new 17, something like a 17 Winchester Short Mag.
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted August 03, 2008 10:21 AM
DAA has one load for the 17 Pred. that produces a vel. of 4110 fps.
I have been useing Nosler custom brass so far but i'm going to try another brand and see if i can get the vel. up a little more...
DAA also has some film on the 17 pred. in action on coyotes... Maybe DAA could chime in and give you guys a little clip of the 17 pred. in action...
It really puts the hurt on them..
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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coyote whacker
Knows what it's all about
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posted August 03, 2008 10:57 AM
tim the best BC I could find on Bergers site for a .17 cal 30 grain bullet is .187 nothing in the .232 in a .17 cal BC wise. At 500 yards your load is 174 Ft lbs add 100 yards at 600 your down to 114 ft lbs.
Compair that to a .243 bullet at 600 yards still has 496 Ft lbs of energy Big differance we can agree on that correct?
Windage at 600 yards with a 30 grain .17 is 59.5"
Compaired to an 80 grain .243 which is 37.4" at 600 and the 80 grain can be at 53.8 at 700 yards, to me in my mind the .243 is more efficant at long range than the .17 with more knock down power to boot.
Maybe your a far better shooter than I, but I would take the .243 over any .17 or .20 cal for longer range coyote work as the thread began.
Good day and knock the heck out of them with the gun you feel most comfotable using.
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This is done on my time and my dime. My views may differ from those of others!
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted August 03, 2008 11:28 AM
There are two guys in my crew that use a 243 and 243 ackley and both are fine cartridges. I just don't care for the fur damage that they cause..
I got my book out and found the B.C. for the two bullets i use.. The 30 gr. berger is a LTB which they no longer make and the BC is .232 and the woodchuck gold bullet has a BC of .270
If i was just going to shoot coyotes then i would use a 25-06 or 300 mag.. But i hunt them for the fur and the least amount of fur damgage i can get is what i look for in a cartridge. I hunt open farm land and if i should get a bad hit on a coyote it has no place it can go to escape.
Its not like i try to go out and shoot coyotes at 5-600 yds, but if the shot is there and i have a good rest and coyote is just standing there then yes i will take the shot...
Late last winter when i had my 7 coyote day i had two coyotes that would stick to the heavey cover at around 300 yds or little more, i passed on them with my 17 pred. and came back a few hours later and called them back in. They did the same as the first stand but this time i had my 22-250 ackley along and both ended up in the back of the truck..I know my limatations of when and when not to use the 17 cal..
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted August 03, 2008 11:37 AM
These little pissing matches always tickle me,and thankfully, they never get nasty over here. The original thread has absolutely nothing to do with long rang hunting, personally, I think anyone is out of their mind to be attempting a shot at a 500 or 600 yard coyote, with anything, thats a hell of a long poke.
I suppose it is all in what conditions and terrain a guy hunts in, that will dictate his prefference for rifle/caliber? I just don't take shots much over 200 yards, because I don't have to. When I hunt, 90% of my coyotes are under 100 yards,and a big percentage are under 60. I might get half a dozen shots a season that are the other side of 200. In my hunting conditions and my stand set ups, my .17 rem works as effectively as any other rifle/caliber I could select, but does the job with far less mess.
Ive been using such small calibers the last few years, when I take out my .17 rem, I almost feel like it's "to much" gun...crazy huh. Im always worried I'll call a fox and cut it in half with the "big" .17, instead of killing it pretty with my .17 ackley hornet or .19 Calhoon.
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted August 03, 2008 11:53 AM
quote:
These little pissing matches always tickle me,and thankfully, they never get nasty over here.
Its all in fun!
I'm not trying to sell the idea that everyone should have a 17 cal. Its my choice of what i prefer to use if i could only have one gun for hunting coyotes..I've got some bigger ones in the gun locker but they are'nt as much fun to shoot....
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 03, 2008 12:17 PM
Yeah, these pissing matches tickle me, too. I don't give a shit what cartridge blows your skirt up, but some of the claims either defy physics or the data was obtained on another planet?
Another thing. Some of the arguments for and against deserve a separate thread for the merits of the question, and the validity of the debate points; because steel plates and wind drift and penetration and foot pounds and sectional density, and kinetic energy, not to mention calculating bullet drop at 600 yards, and the ability of large diameter bullets to help knick scoring rings, it's just a complicated issue......ya know, call them critters inside of 100 yards and there's no problem, etc., etc., etc.
I have never seen it fail though. When you get down to brass tacks, there are people saying that up is down, and black is white and small is large. Even if you did it a few times, would you bet the farm that you are going to kill the next bedded coyote with that kool sub caliber, or are you going to use something a little more logical? You know, is your motivation zero damage or dead critters?
Lastly, blanket statements about various 243s and 204s and 17s is meaningless without discussing the terminal performance of the selected bullet. I mean, what kind of expansion factor are you getting from a bullet with 140 ft lbs? Are we seriously suggesting that this is a good receipe for long range coyote hunting.....in any form?
Even Chad, okay great he intends to use a subcaliber on NV coyotes and then is careful to add that he means on daylights. That was the intent of my comment to my friend Vic when I said the guys would laugh at him and his 17. Ther is no doubt in my mind that at the end of the week, a few more 17 shot coyotes are going to get away, and I don't care how great a shot on game you are. Really kind of simple. It's like telling me a pint of half and half is the new "half gallon". What? Where?
All in good fun, LB
edited for spelling, please excuse
[ August 03, 2008, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted August 03, 2008 03:06 PM
I agree with Vic,500-600 yards shots on coyotes is just to far,aleast for me,300 yards is about Max for my book.I have really been bitten by the small caliber bug as of late.They are just fun to shoot and I have REALLY enjoyed the results.If a guy doesn't feel confident with the small calibers,by all means stick with those larger calibers,but I have grown to really love shooting the small stuff.I have not seen a change one bit in the number of coyotes that have ran off,and/or gotten away since I switched to a smaller Caliber,from my .223's,.22-250, or .243.Might be because I shot most of my coyotes with the larger calibers at the same ranges as with the smaller one(0-300 yards).I would be the first to stop using the small calibers if I started to get runners or lose coyotes due to lack of terminal performance,it just hasn't happened yet,and to be honest I don't expect it will either..
Good Hunting Chad
[ August 03, 2008, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
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