|
Author
|
Topic: Can we have a serious discussion about shotguns for coyotes?
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
|
posted January 10, 2012 04:14 PM
quote:
Do you think a shot column "whips" a coyote, the front arrives on the nose and as the end of the charge finally arrives, throughly plasters the coyote's rear end?
No Leonard...More like wasted shot or a miss..
A long shot colum say comeing from a 3 1/2" shell is fighting itself more than a shorter shot string comeing from a 2 3/4 shell as it exits the muzzle..( over crowded) This is what causes late arrivals or flyers and also a loss of vel. for some of the shot...
Some believe a 12 ga. 3 1/2 is better on performance than a 3" or 2 3/4" shell. In reality the 3 1/2 is putting out a bigger payload than the other two but you get too much restriction and end up wasteing most of it ( not enough energy to penatrate and so on..
A better choice than useing a 3 1/2" 12 ga. load would be going to the next bigger guage which is a 10 ga., larger dia. barrel to allow more room for the same shot charge with less restriction or another choice would be to go to a short shot cup. (smaller payload)
Another note is if your shots are kept at 40 yds or less a shotty dose'nt need a fancey choke or special shells to kill coyotes..
Pattern testing: How many guys have actually shot more than one target with a choosen load they intend to use?? I say a minimum of five should be shot at for a test of a certain load.. Then come back a day or week later and repeat it.. Lots of surprises there.....
Edit to add.: A load of 00-buck at 1459 f.p.s has roughly 250 pounds of energy from the muzzle and drops to 207 pounds or more at 50 yds.
I remember a few years back when i got alot of guff for shooting coyotes at 500 yds with one of my 17 cal.s.. Most said there is'nt enough energy for a clean kill. A 30 gr. gold at 600 yds is putting out 208 pounds of energy.. So if what other have said is true then a shotty is useless past 40 yds. Something to think about.. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ January 10, 2012, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
|
posted January 10, 2012 04:41 PM
quote:
Edit to add.: A load of 00-buck at 1459 f.p.s has roughly 250 pounds of energy from the muzzle and drops to 207 pounds or more at 50 yds.
207#'s at 50 yards IF all pellets hit the target, which is not very likely to happen on a coyote sized target.
--------------------
Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
Posts: 996 | From: Elizabeth, CO | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
|
posted January 10, 2012 05:30 PM
I agree but there are some to lay claim to 70% or there abouts of the shot lands inside a 30" circle..
I should also add the 207 pounds of energy is for each pellet of which not all of them will have that much energy left by the time they reach the target....
A pellet of 00-buck weighs 53.8 gr. and is a round ball which will shed more energy faster than a bullet of the same weight...
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted January 10, 2012 06:29 PM
Sure, might be way down in foot pounds, so it is a good thing that the effect is cumulative: we have to add up the pellets that strike home, and maybe there is enough total energy to knock the snot out of him?
Good hunting. LB
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31463 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
JD
HONORARY OKIE .... and Tim's at fault!
Member # 768
|
posted January 10, 2012 06:31 PM
quote:
there are some to lay claim to 70% or there abouts of the shot lands inside a 30" circle..
I believe LB just stated that the dead coyote load landed in a 15x15 area......is he lying to us?
quote:
I remember a few years back when i got alot of guff for shooting coyotes at 500 yds with one of my 17 cal.s.. Most said there is'nt enough energy for a clean kill. A 30 gr. gold at 600 yds is putting out 208 pounds of energy.. So if what other have said is true then a shotty is useless past 40 yds
If all things are equal (they aren't) then wouldn't it make sense that a shotgun would be the better choice tim? Wouldn't it be better to hit the coyote with several projectiles with the same energy as compared to 1 projectile? Yes?
Trying to justify your 700 yd shots by comparing it to a 40 yd shot with a shotgun just doesn't make sense. The two can't be compared in any logical way. If you can kill coyotes at 700 yds with the pred. good on ya tim! I just don't see how it relates to LBs choke and patterning experiments.
--------------------
Jason
--------------------------------------
What do Obama & TA17Rem have in common........both are clueless asshats!!!
Posts: 1456 | From: NE. | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
|
posted January 10, 2012 10:55 PM
quote:
I believe LB just stated that the dead coyote load landed in a 15x15 area......is he lying to us?
I can't say as I was'nt there..
quote:
If all things are equal (they aren't) then wouldn't it make sense that a shotgun would be the better choice tim? Wouldn't it be better to hit the coyote with several projectiles with the same energy as compared to 1 projectile?
With the rifle it only takes one well placed shot,, with the shotty you don't know where all the shot is going to hit and if its going to hit the right places, also not all the pellets have the same amount of energy...
If one projectile can get the job done why over kill???LOL
quote:
Trying to justify your 700 yd shots by comparing it to a 40 yd shot with a shotgun just doesn't make sense. The two can't be compared in any logical way.
The 17 cal bullet is produceing as much energy at 600 yds as a load of 12 ga. buck shot is at 40 yds. so yes they canbe compared as far as energy goes, if one has enough energy at 40. yds then the other has enough at 600 to do the job..
I'm not going to do it for you but you can do a search on buck shot and how it penatrates a block of gellatin...It may answer a few of your questions or doubts..
[ January 10, 2012, 11:00 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
|
posted January 10, 2012 11:05 PM
quote:
Sure, might be way down in foot pounds, so it is a good thing that the effect is cumulative: we have to add up the pellets that strike home, and maybe there is enough total energy to knock the snot out of him?
I agree Leonard as long as most shots are at 40 yards or less..I'm not knocking your testing.. Its the guys that claim those 50-60-70 yd kills and I'm betting in real life they get the same results as a guy useing a 17 HMR, there just to ashamed to talk about it... LOL
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
jimanaz
2nd Place RICHARD FARNSWORTH LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3689
|
posted January 11, 2012 08:59 AM
quote:
Its the guys that claim those 50-60-70 yd kills and I'm betting in real life they get the same results as a guy useing a 17 HMR, there just to ashamed to talk about it...
For once I agree with Tim. Somebody mark this down!!
I have thumped coyotes over 40 yards with a shotgun, seen dust fly all around them, seen them wince, fall over, bite at theselves, etc., and never recovered them. If you want to knock the snot out of them keep the distance reasonable.
Posts: 940 | From: AZ | Registered: Oct 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted January 11, 2012 10:13 AM
Along with that, I should probably say that I have killed a lot more coyotes at night, than on day stands and it's because we always kept a shotgun up on top and handy for those hard chargers that just appear out of nowhere. Yes, well within 40 yards. That's why I have no illusions on distance, and I will say another thing. I always keep an eye on a dead shotguned coyote. It's amazing how many times they can get up and run off after two minutes/five minutes, etc.
And, unlike with a rifle, where I will allow a coyote to wiggle around for a bit without a followup, if a downed coyote is messing around, he gets another dose right now.
Good hunting. LB
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31463 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
|
posted January 11, 2012 12:30 PM
Back in the day when i first started hunting with the group it was pretty much the norm that all the blockers carried and used shotguns for the hard chargers comeing to or across the road.. Most of us did'nt know how to shoot a runner with a rifle or was'nt very good at it as most of us started out as spot and stalk hunters.
We used mostly 12 ga. and a few 10 ga. Ithicas, useing shot as small as #2 all the way up to 00-buck.. When a coyote hit the ditch we new it was close enough to start laying the lead out and in most cases it was alot like what Jim described, dirt and snow flying in all directions and one tuff coyote still going and going.. Depending on the distance a shooter would get lucky and do the job with just one shot and then we had those tuff SOB's that would take everything we could throw at them.. I remember the last coyote I ever shot with a shot-gun, it took five shots from a 12 ga. 3 1/2" Berreta exstrema and still had to be run down and finished with a pistol..
To me it did'nt set right to see a coyote die like that so I left the shotgun at home after that and just used the rifle and learned through trial and error on hitting them with it. I got pretty good with it on runners and soon after most of the others did the same and stayed with the rifle.. We could put enough coyotes in front of everyone in a few days to get plenty of practice in and figure out what we needed to do as far as hitting them..
We only have one guy that still carries a shotgun so we usually put him in the tight spots like next to a bridge watching the ice or places where visabilty is limited due to tree's or ridges...
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bofire
READ MY LIPS!
Member # 221
|
posted January 11, 2012 04:37 PM
I have tried several 3.5 inch loads in my 12 gag. at 25 yards good patterns at 50 they suck. I have never found one that works and I think it is because there is too much shot for a 12 bore and it deforms the pellets.
All the loads I have ever patterned the 'general' rule has been with big shot, like #4 buck and bigger an open choke works better, with lighter shot the tighter choke works better.
For turkeys I have gone back to 2.75 inch loads, magnums, great velocity and better patterns. At 50 yards on coyotes I'd rather use a rifle.
my 2
Carl
retired 12/31, just got back from a eastern Washington and north central Montana hunt, tipped over a few coyotes had a great time.
Carl
Posts: 322 | From: Wild West | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted January 11, 2012 11:32 PM
I finally made it to Bass Proshops. Cost me damned near $500 to get out the door!
Anyway, I looked very closely at the buttkicker chokes, a .670" and a .680" and one marked "FULL" whatever that means, but I think it was for ducks, etc? But, I started browsing when I read that they are marked only for Lead shot?
The one I bought was actually more money, which I didn't think was possible? It's called the Indian Creek BLACK DIAMOND STRIKE. I never heard of it before but it looks kool? Choke is .675" but it says hybrid heavy loads, lead and steel, which made the difference for me.
Hmm? I might have selected the wrong tube? It says this accommodates #2 through #8, with the predator model accepting buckshot through #8 shot. Shit. I do not see anything denoting "predator model" anywhere on the card?
I guess I should go back and see if there was one marked for predators? This has #0004 on the label and I have no idea what that means?
I'll see if they have a website. Another trip! Rats!
Good hunting....LB
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31463 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
|
posted January 12, 2012 01:00 AM
Leonard be carefull and make sure you get the right choke tube.. Not sure if you know but some types or brands are'nt built strong enough for steel shot, thickness and material used has something to do with this..
I bought a Stoeger 12 ga. semi-auto last fall that came with 6 choke tubes, some are ment for steel shot and some for lead..
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted January 12, 2012 03:26 AM
I looked at their website. The operative word on the choke I bought is "Strike" and it's intended for turkey. If it had said; Black Diamond Assault then it's for coyotes and the choke is (I think?) .710", not .675" which is the turkey model/Strike.
I need to at least call these people in the morning and find out if I totally fucked up or it might work for the shells I plan on using? Otherwise, I gotta take it back and I really don't think there was any "Assault" models displayed?
Good hunting. LB
PS all the factory chokes that came with my 835 are compatible with steel and lead.
One is marked: MOD-T&F STEEL
second line says: I.C. - ALL LEAD and they are all stainless
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31463 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted January 12, 2012 02:22 PM
I called tech support, I think I talked to the boss dog, Mike? He said I definitely have the wrong model and told me that Bass Pro doesn't buy the coyote model so he offered to ship me the right one, if I will send him this one, which I guess I will go ahead and do because he promised to get it done right away, no sitting on his desk until he get's around to it.
So, off to the post office, maybe sometime next week I can check patterns?
Good hunting. LB
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31463 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
|
posted January 12, 2012 03:27 PM
Your El Bee-ness;
I know that you already know this, but it may be worth repeating just to keep in the back of your mind.
As you pursue the really tight patterns at 40-45 & 50 yards, the pattern gets really really tight at 10-15 & 20 yards, making it easy to miss a coyote that comes in fast & zig-zagging around brush. These misses are (1) ALWAYS witnessed. And, (2) The witness will gleefully tell the world in great detail how you missed a coyote with a shotgun, that was coming to hike it's leg on your boot.
Anyway, it's food for thought. YMMV
--------------------
And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7581 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
|
posted January 12, 2012 04:05 PM
quote:
As you pursue the really tight patterns at 40-45 & 50 yards, the pattern gets really really tight at 10-15 & 20 yards, making it easy to miss a coyote that comes in fast & zig-zagging around brush. These misses are (1) ALWAYS witnessed. And, (2) The witness will gleefully tell the world in great detail how you missed a coyote with a shotgun, that was coming to hike it's leg on your boot.
Is'nt that what the rifle is for.. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted January 12, 2012 04:39 PM
Thanks, and I know the problems and usually hunker down out of sight of anybody that is going to laugh at my misses. I also try to make sure, being out of sight, that my partner can't run a bullet up my ass, so I get down in the wash where he can't hit me without a big effort.
Maybe I will go all in, and get Jimanezed with this rig?
You know, antisocial lonesome dove, ghillie suit, etc.?
Good hunting. LB
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31463 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
jimanaz
2nd Place RICHARD FARNSWORTH LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3689
|
posted January 12, 2012 08:54 PM
LOL! You better stick with what you know.
Posts: 940 | From: AZ | Registered: Oct 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
|
posted January 12, 2012 09:06 PM
"Isn't that what the rifle is for?"
Tim;
Here's how I break it down, based on my vast amount of inter-net experience and the fact that two coyotes have crossed the road in front of my truck so far this year.
0 to 2 yards; Handgun!!! At the very least, a Python, .357 Mag. Better to use a 1911. You're being attacked.......spray & pray, or curse loudly.
Out to around 40 yards; Shotgun. Shottie for the cutting edge crowd. Pumps used to be fast enough but autoloaders are needed now. If you carry an O/U like I do, even I will laugh at you.
Shots between shotgun distance and about 125 yards; A decent Mini-14 is all you need. Half minute of coyote at 100 yards. Maybe a 20 round clip, too.
100 to 300 yards; Any semi-auto rifle as long as it's black and has a 1 to 250 ratio. Meaning that 1 rifle should cost about what 250 coyote pelts will bring.
Out past 300; Any bolt action with a big knob and `improved` in the name.
Remember.............we're here to help. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
--------------------
And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7581 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
|
posted January 12, 2012 09:37 PM
"Leonard be carefull and make sure you get the right choke tube.. Not sure if you know but some types or brands are'nt built strong enough for steel shot, thickness and material used has something to do with this..
I bought a Stoeger 12 ga. semi-auto last fall that came with 6 choke tubes, some are ment for steel shot and some for lead."
-------------------------------------
Yeh, right! Hey Leonard, no need for you to pick the brain of folks like 3 Toes who actually KILL coyotes with shotguns. I mean Hell, you have T.A. who is still talking old school shotgunning and uses a sawed off Ithaca or some shit that might just hit the side of a shit house at 20 yards with a pattern that a deer could run through. T.A. knows all you need to know. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
--------------------
If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted January 12, 2012 10:20 PM
So, are you saying he should stick to BB gun advice? Sub caliber stuff? Hey, you two are practically Paisanos, Iowa being bumped up to Minneesota and all?
Now that I think about it, you two have the makin's of a darn good team, Cronkster manning the shottie and Timmy boy handling the 50 yarders. Whoah boy, look out coyotes!
Good hunting. LB
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31463 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
|
posted January 12, 2012 11:51 PM
My shotgunning days was spent killing mostly Ducks, Geese and pheasants along with some fox and coyotes, Not as many coyotes as Cal but I think I have killed enough of the other animals mentioned to make up for it...
There is an old Rem./Browning A-5/model 11 12 ga. auto sitting over at my mothers house that my dad used in a plane back in the early days that has taken its share of fur. I think cronk was still in diapers then...
[ January 13, 2012, 12:24 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
|
posted January 13, 2012 01:48 PM
"So, are you saying he should stick to BB gun advice? Sub caliber stuff? Hey, you two are practically Paisanos, Iowa being bumped up to Minneesota and all?
Now that I think about it, you two have the makin's of a darn good team, Cronkster manning the shottie and Timmy boy handling the 50 yarders. Whoah boy, look out coyotes!"
-------------------------------------------
Not exactly Leonard,
The guy seems fairly learned up on the black machine guns, and he has even called up a few coyotes. My point is that the guy knows zero about todays shotguns with screw in chokes. I'm pretty sure that you know more about shotguns than Timmy does.
--------------------
If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted January 13, 2012 03:30 PM
b cause I own TWO twelve gauge shotties, I know more than anybody on my block. Possibly the whole zip code?
My burning D zyre is to purchase a rig like 3toes has, when I win the LOTTO. I go all in!
Good hunting. El Bee ness
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31463 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
