This is topic Used 17 Remingtons? in forum Firearms forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 01, 2003, 07:49 PM:
What's the deal? Are they about the same as anything else, or does accuracy fall off sooner? Especially buying via the internet, should we be extra cautious? How many rounds would you expect to get, from a factory barrel? Is it better to buy new?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Jack Roberts (Member # 13) on June 01, 2003, 09:39 PM:
When buying any high-intensity caliber, especially the smaller ones with not much recoil, you should always figure the barrel is shot out.
It takes a real masochist to wear out a magnum chambered barrel in 308, 338. 358, 375, 416, or 458.
Any whimp can easily destroy a 17 or 22 barrel. No punishing recoil, and it doesn't take many shots.
The big 6mm chambers are starting to have some recoil, but real short barrel life.
A look through a borescope will remove all doubt as to what the barrel is.
At the time I bought my borescope, it was a significant expenditure. I never regretted spending the money for it. I would not do without one now even if it was more expensive. In fact, they are cheaper now.
Jack
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 02, 2003, 03:55 PM:
That's my attitude, as well, Jack. But I see folks wheeling and dealing on the blackboard and other places, sight unseen. Ya gotta figure the barrel's toast, right? LB
Posted by Richard Grantham (Member # 107) on June 02, 2003, 04:33 PM:
I had a enlighting experience, ( darn wish I could spell) bought a used 223 from local gunsmith that had just cleaned it up? wife waiting in car fuming if you know how that is! Got home and looked in barrel, last 2-3 inches were gross- couldn't get it cleaned out, looked burnt, back to gunsmith, looked in with bore scope, only thing he could offer was maybe the guy fired tracers and they started burning in long barrel. Money back/cut off barrel/put on a takeoff from some rebarrel job, Richard got his money back and quit dealing with guy.
Should have looked- probably the only gun deal I ever made with out asking for cleaning rod and hard look.
Never to old to mess up.
Richard Grantham
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 02, 2003, 06:50 PM:
Yeah, a lot of guys believe that a 223 should last forever, and, they should. But, take a hot afternoon and shoot several hundred sqquirrels in a short period of time, and you might have done what ten years of sensible shooting would not do. You may have done the (near) impossible and washed out your barrel with your exuberance.
For me, I always run my fingers along the barrel. If it's too hot to hold, I wait. Some run four or five guns, rotating, to keep shooting while the others cool off.
But as to the question, what's best guestimate on the number of (reasonably) accurate rounds from a 17 Rem? 3000-4000? Less, more?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on June 02, 2003, 06:58 PM:
I asked Cooper Rifles [I got the guy who does the test firing of each rifle] that question today,as an in general question regarding any caliber.His answer was that unless you shoot max loads all the time,hundreds of times,without watching barrel heat-up,it's almost impossible to shoot a barrel out.In other words,usually it's a combination of neglect,hot loads,and overshooting causing overheating that causes it.He also said that in the case of Cooper rifles,it didn't matter anyway,because they guaranteed there barrels,period.
I ordered one in 20 tactical tonight,it'll be here sometime after January,they are really back ordered right now.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 02, 2003, 07:04 PM:
I see several questionable statements there, SE. Exactly what is their warranty on barrels?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on June 02, 2003, 07:21 PM:
He indicated to me that they would replace any burnt out barrel,period.He said a Cooper barrel was guaranteed for a lifetime.I haven't received anything in writing,but that is what he told me,unless I misunderstood,which I don't think I did. I think basically he/they feel that if you allow reasonable cooling off and don't shoot max lods as a rule of thumb, it would be extremely difficult to shoot the barrel out.I will get my dealer to double check this tomorrow.
What other conflicting statements do you see, maybe I worded something wrong that I can't see ?
I asked him what the average barrel life was for any caliber.I told him I had read reports of 40,000 rounds and others of 2500. He said the barrel should last a lifetime, with proper care and reasoinable loads.
When you think about it,if overheating and 3 or 4000 rounds was the average life of a barrel,there'd be a pile of discarded AR15 barrels in the sands of Iraq now.
Posted by Jack Roberts (Member # 13) on June 02, 2003, 07:34 PM:
I do know that the fast twist 17 Rems, 6" twist for shooting the 37gr bullets, are lucky to go 500 rounds before blow-ups start happening. I would guess a slower twist hunting 17 Rem should double that or maybe more.
Very few people, outside of match shooters, keep accurate records of rounds fired. Most overestimate by a factor of at least 2, the number of rounds they have fired through any particular rifle.
There are two very different wear patterns that develop in rifle barrels:
High intensity(large case for bore size) or rapid fire with a smaller case, causes a burnt barrel. When looking at it with a borescope, it looks like someone stuck an oxy-acetylene torch in it. In stainless barrels, it resembles burnt alligator skin. In extreme cases, either very overbore or very rapid fire, this can totally destroy a barrel in just a few hundred rounds.
Lower intensity cases,(with no rapid fire), in 224 that would be 223 and smaller cases, just gradually wear the rifling. It gradually becomes rounded and shallower. With this type of wear, a barrel can still have acceptable accuracy after 10,000 rounds. It will not be what it was at 300 rounds though.
Jack
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on June 03, 2003, 01:39 AM:
so you're telling me the new 17rem barrel I ordered with a 1/10 twist is only good for a couple thousand rounds ?? I'm sorry,but there is no way I can believe that,no offense intended.Were that the case,it seems to me companies would be required by law to mention it to the purchaser,there is a lawsuit in there somewhere begging to be brought out,warranted or not.
[ June 03, 2003, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: Seldom Ever ]
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on June 03, 2003, 02:29 PM:
Relax lad; for the average predator hunter, 4,000-5,000 rounds IS a lifetime! Think about it, after sight in, with a scope you presumably will keep on the rifle, that leaves you approximately 4,980 shots.....thats a ton of coyotes,cats and foxes. Aside from the zero checks, and several dozen jackrabbits, my 17 gets around 100 shots down the tube each year. Ive had mine since 1994, and have probably put 600-800 rounds thru it. Ive no doubt that after the worms start to eat on me, and the rifle is passed on to my son or son-in-law, it will most likely last them their lifetime too. Most 17s' aren't in the hands of rat shooters, or praire dog shooters, it's just not the caliber of choice for that kind of hunting. Most 17s' will reside in the safes of guys interested in predator hunting or ground hog hunting, this is not high volumn shooting like a .223 or 22-250 would be used, so the chance of a burnt 17 barrel gotten off the net or in a trade is not very likely, and should be fine.
~Az-Hunter~
-----------------------
"Most bad press concerning 17s', is scribbled by those with little trigger time behind one"
[ June 03, 2003, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: Az-Hunter ]
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on June 03, 2003, 02:34 PM:
4 0r 5000 still seems awfully low.I asked Fred Bullberry at bullberry.com today,he says 20,000.
I guess there is no real definitive answer.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 03, 2003, 04:21 PM:
There might not be a definitive answer if you clean religiously after every ten shots, and always space out your shooting, and never load to max.
Otherwise, these guys know what they are talkng about; the members, that is. 5,000 accurate rounds is ten to fifteen years for the average hunter, and that's probably about what you will get? Twenty thousand is unrealistic and borderline misleading, if not deceptive?
My reason for asking about a used 17 is a post on the blackboard about an ad for a Cooper in 17 "something"? for $825. A 17 Remington is a high intensity cartridge and prone to wash out barrels if you're not careful. And, the pressure curve "pegs" on warm days. It isn't a squirrel gun anyway; it has a single purpose, for most people: hide hunting.
So, as with Weatherby Magnums and such, I think a guy should be very cautious about buying any rifle chambered in a high intensity chambering; say over 55,000psi? Or, high volume to bore ratio, commonly called overbore capacity.
I read a while back in one of the gun rags that the 17 Remington was the rifle most often returned to the factory with a blown action. I can believe it. Gotta get four grand, ya know?
Most seventeen caliber wildcats are slightly smaller case capacity than the factory Remington and it is very easy to use too much of the incorrect powder. A 17 Remington comes very close to fitting my personal definition of overbore.
Good hunting. LB
edit: PS I knew there was something else I wanted to comment on. Regarding accurate records, I save the bullet boxes on a certain shelf. At a glance, I can tell you within a hundred, how many rounds are through my barrels. Works for me. LB
[ June 03, 2003, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on June 03, 2003, 04:33 PM:
As you say,I probably wouldn't need mine beyond the next fifteen years anyway,hunting wise.That would put me quitting hunting at the age of 66,and I 'd still have the 20 tactical or 223 or something else anyway. I doubt I'd shoot out the barrel in 15 years regardless.
I wish Wilson was still here,he'd know the answer for sure ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
.
Posted by Terry Hunter (Member # 58) on June 03, 2003, 04:39 PM:
I have owned a 17 since the late 70's.Still shoots great.Maybe 500 rounds fired.
The Nashville gun show has 17 calibers a few times a year.Last year I looked at one 425.00 no scope.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 03, 2003, 04:47 PM:
There seems to be more than a couple questions about "Wilson"? Assuming he isn't a soccer ball; is he known to us by another name? I can look it up and tell you when he last posted.
One more thing: you don't have to fire a hundred rounds to overheat a barrel. It can be as little as four or five, depending on the precise load, and the mass of the barrel.
Good hunting. LB
edit: to comment on what Terry wrote. So, here we have an active eastern coyote hunter, and in almost twenty-five years, he has fired 500 rounds, or 20 per year. I guess he only has 225 years left in that barrel, at that rate? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ June 03, 2003, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on June 03, 2003, 05:33 PM:
yep,looks like I don't need to worry,unless I see a lot and/or miss a lot.
The Wilson thing is me and the Maineiac pulling on slydawg's leg a little bit... ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by Pete Hofer (Member # 150) on June 03, 2003, 09:16 PM:
Hi Leonard,
Well, I made it again (through surgery). Those doctors said they are having trouble finding places where they can get through the scare tissue.
Anyway, I think the answer to barrel life is what and how the gun is used for. Two days before surgery I fired 84rds. in just under 2hrs. at ground squirrels. Killing 79. The gun I was shooting is a Sako L46 equipped with a Douglas #4 SS barrel, glass stock, and a KT15X Weaver. What a gun! It's like sighting a lazer beam on squirrels out to 250-275yds. This rifle shoots into .5-.75ins. at 100yds and still .75 or less at 200yds. with the 20gr.VMax? I keep track of each round fired in my squirrel and chuck rifles having just over 800rds through this barrel. If I continue to cheat the clock with this cancer I'll let you know how long it lasts. My M700 17cal. I have ownd for 5yrs., keeping it down in my shop and killed 1/2 doz. badgers, about 30 coyotes(out calling), skunks, magpies, and wild house cats that come around. Maybe something over 350rds. through it.
As you know I use a 22/250 or mostly for calling but I appreciate the .17 alot more then I used to.
Pete
Posted by Terry Hunter (Member # 58) on June 04, 2003, 04:14 PM:
Most of those 500 rounds were shot at groudhogs now that the hogs are gone the 17 gets very little use.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 04, 2003, 05:59 PM:
Great hearing from you, Pete! Keep that positive attitude, you'll do okay. Having an active hobby helps, also. We CSVCA oldtimers need to stick together. Those were the good old days, right?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by catskin (Member # 51) on June 13, 2003, 09:34 AM:
How about a 17 Mach IV??
http://imageevent.com/4sale/guns/rifles/cooper
only $1000 and no wait... except CA BS.
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on June 17, 2003, 06:39 AM:
Leonard,
I don't keep the empty bullet boxes, but I do track how many primers I buy for each rifle. I was on my third box of 1,000 when my 17 Remington barrel bit the dust.
I did shoot a lot of overly hot rounds though it, blew a lot of primers. And didn't always wait long enough to let the barrel cool when working on loads.
Eventually, the throat moved so far forward the bullet couldn't touch it and accuracy fell off. I took it to a 'smith who "claimed" to have 17 experience. He set back the barrel and then cut a new throat even longer than the burned out one. A 25 grain Hornady was .030" too short to touch both the lands and the case at the same time.
I rebarreled it with a 27" Lilja, and have put 400+ rounds though it since last November. I don't let this one get as hot, after five rounds, I set it aside and let the barrel cool.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on June 17, 2003, 07:45 AM:
Hi there Tim, nice to see you posting.
Hows your Lilja .17 for copper fouling? The Lilja on my Mach IV is just plain spooky how little it copper fouls. I've never seen anything like it before, with any caliber. One of those things you see once in awhile that you wouldn't believe if you weren't seeing it for yourself. You know what I mean?
- DAA
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on June 17, 2003, 09:07 AM:
I never tried to use any copper remover until I got this barrel. I thought I was doing it wrong the first few times I tried it. Just couldn't get much blue stuff on the patch.
Then one day, I pulled out the SKS. Hadn't cleaned it in years, if ever. Thought I'd never get the blue stuff to quite coming out of it.
I've a new 34" 30 cal barrel from Lilja. I did the break in thing for the first 50 rounds, then did the copper removal. Two or three blue patches was all I could get out of it. I fired 160 more rounds before cleaning it again yesterday. After 2-3 patches with light blue streaks, they all came out clean.
I'm thinking Dan Lilja must know his stuff, because all of the copper seems to be going down range with the bullet, not sticking in the barrel.
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