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Author
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Topic: Homemade Ballistic Gelatin
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Yoteboy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 534
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posted February 01, 2005 08:24 AM
Is it possible to make this stuff at home? What is this stuff really made of , because if it's easy to make at home wouldn't that be the best way to test how bullets would react on a coyote? I don't know , this might be a dumb question from a new caller, but I thought I'd ask.Because if you had a 6 in. chunk of the stuff and the bullet never exited, wouldn't that tell you right then and there, that's the bullet you wanted to use when you wanted to keep the fur.
Posts: 15 | From: Saskatchewan | Registered: Jan 2005
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Duncan Menads
Knows what it's all about
Member # 381
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posted February 01, 2005 10:33 AM
Ask Bill Cosby, I'm sure he'd love to tell you.
Posts: 44 | From: Your Closet | Registered: Aug 2004
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Q-Wagoner
FREE TRIAL MEMBERSHIP
Member # 33
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posted February 01, 2005 10:38 AM
NO, the best way to test a bullet for coyote hunting is to shoot lots of coyotes. Gelatin is just that, Gelatin. It is made out of animals but really doesn’t represent meat and bone. In my opinion if a bullet can’t penetrate more than 6 inches it is worthless for my purposes. Exit wounds are not bad in most cases as long as you keep it in the ribs. Gut shot exits will be worse because you don’t have the ribs to hold things together. Glancing wounds, spine hits and neck shots will all cause damage with high impact velocities no matter what bullet you are using. Entrance wounds on an average are worse than any exit wound are especially with varmint type bullets. This is because all of the bullet is there at the same time creating a wake of bone meat and hide in its path before it gains enough penetration for the body to absorb the hydrostatic shock.
Exit wounds are less violent because the bullet sheds a lot of weight and velocity as it inters the body of the coyote. Less bullet is coming out at a slower velocity.
If you have ever shot water you can see and exaggerated version of what happens when a bullet hits an animal. The fibers in the meat and the hide retard the “splash” effect but it will show you how powerful hydrostatic shock can be.
For me penetration is important because I shoot coyotes at long range frequently and at many different angles. A coyote that gets hit in the flank with a bullet that will only penetrate 6 inches is not going to be anchored for long if at all. My rifle bullet combination will keep him put most times. I shoot Nosler 55 BTs out of a swift.
I have recovered their little solid copper boat tales just under the skin quit a few times. On one occasion I shot a coyote slightly quartering me at about 100 yards and the bullet interred the center of his chest. While skinning I found the boat tale under the hide in the flank of the coyote. That bullet penetrated 20 inches. On that shot a lot lesser of a gun could do the job just as neatly but the extra punch is just an insurance policy on those pesky bones and bad angles you have to deal with sometimes.
Most instances you don’t need much of a gun to kill a coyote. Three inches of penetration is all you need with a broad side shot. An HMR will do the trick just fine.
Like I said in another thread on another board. Maybe only 1 in 10 coyotes you shoot will need that extra bone crushing power to anchor it and if a guy only shoots 20 coyotes a year that statistic may not catch up with him but if you are killing between 1 and 2 hundred a season you will realize the value of penetration and from their you can decide if the negatives out weigh the positives.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posts: 617 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted February 01, 2005 10:42 AM
Yoteboy
Welcome to Huntmasters. It might be easier just to tell the members what cal. and bullet you will be shooting. More than likely someone will have experience with it and will be able to tell you about its performance.
Dennis
Posts: 719 | From: IA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 01, 2005 12:38 PM
Welcome to the New Huntmasters, Yoteboy. Glad to have you on board.
I agree with what Quinton says. No substitute for shooting coyotes, to tell you how your load performs. I also believe in using enough gun. Also, I want exits. Sure stops having to deal with runners. A well constructed bullet should exit nicely, not blow the shit out of the back side....or the front side, for that matter.
I have read several reports in gun rags, and it seems that wet newspapers are one method of judging the penetration of a bullet, but it doesn't address the expansion we see with "varmint" type bullets.
My theory is high velocity hydrostatic shock and an exit. Whatever blows your skirt up, ya know?
Good hunting. LB
[ February 01, 2005, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted February 01, 2005 04:08 PM
February and March have always been my two top months to test coyote loads. ( Yeah, I know, I'm limited to Feb. now )
During this time, most coyotes are beginning to rub pretty bad and loose all market value for their pelts.
I trap until the last day of season, because I love to trap. But I don't love to skin, so if the coyote has no marketable value, I won't waste my time. When I catch a late season coyote, with rubbed fur, I'll back off 100 yards and shoot him with a new load.
I'm heading to town right after supper tonight to buy a new rifle. Tomorrow, I'll stick in a few coyote sets to get some good test medium, then come home and sight it in. By Thursday, I should be ready to test a load or two. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 01, 2005 05:18 PM
You got my attention, Tim. What are you bringing home?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Yoteboy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 534
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posted February 01, 2005 08:55 PM
Thanks for the replies. I guess what I'm after is dead coyotes and not big holes to sew. I custom skinned coyotes for a fur buyer and I've seen the damage some bullets can do. To me I need a 22 bullet that's gonna be fur friendly and produces consistant results. I thought if you could try out bullets on the jelly you might wittle out the bad from the good. Just a thought anyway.
Posts: 15 | From: Saskatchewan | Registered: Jan 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 01, 2005 09:15 PM
Okay. Don't let us make you feel like you asked a dumb question, it's not that, at all.
I just don't think it will prove useful, when you get down to brass tacks.
You didn't mention your working velocities, or your cartridge, other than it's .224"
Depending on your initial velocities, what Quinton had to say is actually valuable advice from an experienced coyote hunter that hunts fur.
What he is saying is that he uses the 55 Nosler Ballistic Tip in a 220 Swift. That bullet is rather stoutly constructed, and steams right through a coyote, leaving a very managable exit.
I do almost the same exact thing with my 22-250 Ackley, shooting 65 grain bullets. I get an exit, but not nearly as bad as you might think, at most distances, encountered.
The idea of shooting a coyote with a twenty-two centerfire, and leaving the expanded bullet inside, no exit, sounds good in theory. You mention reliability. You will have some success...followed by some noticeable failures, including lost animals.
I want a dead coyote when I walk out there, not some meat and a blood trail. Bullets that pass through without expanding kill well, and tend to leave you with (not) a lot of repair.
That's my take on the subject, others manage other ways. Nothing is foolproof, but mine and Quinton's method is reliable. Dead coyote every time, with an acceptable amount of damage.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Yoteboy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 534
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posted February 02, 2005 06:17 AM
Right now I'm shooting a 22-250 at about 3800fps w/ sierra 52 or 53 gr. hp bullets. Would a .223 be better. I don't shoot beyond 250 yds and most shots are way closer than that.In fact my closest shot was 26 paces this year and the longest was just about 200. Suggestions?
Posts: 15 | From: Saskatchewan | Registered: Jan 2005
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GCrock
Knows what it's all about
Member # 351
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posted February 02, 2005 08:13 AM
I haven't shot "a couple hundred coyotes yet", so I'm asking for your advice, thoughts, and opinions. 2 years ago, I got a 220 swift fairly late in the season. I was using the 55 nbt at 3900 fps, figuring this would give me range and knock down power (think I read too many of Q's posts! LOL) Anyway, I shot one coyote head on that was a bang flop. Excellent. The next coyote I shot was called into 75 yards and was broadside. I figured I would zip that pill through the coyote right behind his shoulder and hopefully miss a rib. He fell like a sack of dirt, as I racked in another shell. I looked at him in a pile, when he came to life. He took off running like he was on fire, and I could see he was getting bloodier by the step. I just lined him up for another shot when he rolled over and fell in a heap. I could tell this one was going to be a mess. When I got to him, he had an exit right behind the shoulder that a softball could fit through, and we had a tough time finding a place to grab him that wasn't soaked in blood. And yet, he still ran 75 yards or so after being hit right where I was aiming. You never judge a rifle or bullet with one hit, but that was such a mess I haven't shot another with it. What happened?
Also on the bullet types--seems to me it is a trade off-you either try to get disintegration within the animal or a small exit. With the smaller calibers--20, 17--a bullet that holds together and can be shot through would be ideal. Why aren't we seeing the interbond or accubond technology in coyote bullets yet? And, would such a bullet expand enough to be lethal on less than perfect shots (or break the shoulder shots)that I usually manage to make. In other words, I something in between a fmj and a v-max, with a good bc for longer range shots. I realize this is a long post and I'm asking for answers that might not exist, so I'm asking the experts who have been there, and done that for your opinions.
Posts: 17 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jun 2004
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted February 02, 2005 12:55 PM
Q,
That may be the best post you've ever written, very well said.
Krusty 
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 02, 2005 02:45 PM
GC, sometimes an animal can move on you, you get a angle that you pictured as a side presentation, and, at the last second, the animal is bent in a (sort of) U shape. This can mess with the exit.
Anything can happen, if you are around long enough. However, the action you describe is one that always amazes me when I see it, just because it's not normal. Heart shot animals, like as not will run off like a complete miss, then drop dead fifty yards away; in sight, if you're lucky. If not, you might not go look. I keep relearning that lesson.
I wouldn't give up on that load because of one instance. May not happen again until you get to 200?
Good hunting. LB
edit: (Yoteboy) PS, I don't care for either the 52 or the 53 Sierra, as a coyote bullet. I always think of reasons to not like boat tails, but if it comes down to inexpensive target type HP's I much prefer the 53 Hornady and the 52 Speer.
[ February 02, 2005, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
Member # 19
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posted February 02, 2005 03:17 PM
Yoteboy,
You might try the 52 gr. Speer HP that Leonard mentioned. Somebody gave me a couple hundred of these a few years back and I only shot 30-40 coyotes with this particular bullet but I don't seem to remember an exit. I did have a few close range hits that were a little ugly but anything nearing about 75 yards or further was nice. I think this is the bullet that Rick Jamison talked about using in his book with in his 22/250 during his fur taking days if I remember right? I had a little trouble at times getting that huge hollowpoint to feed properly everytime in my rifle so I quite using them. If I were to try them again I would run them a little slower around 3600fps and see what that would do for fur friendliness also.
Posts: 1209 | From: Lewiston, Idaho USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Q-Wagoner
FREE TRIAL MEMBERSHIP
Member # 33
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posted February 02, 2005 03:44 PM
Gcrocket, bullets do funny tings when they are going that fast but I actually can’t remember having an exit would that big “right behind” the shoulder. The ribs always seem to hold things together. I am about ready to put up over 150 Nosler BT shot coyotes and I am going to do an evaluation and take lots of pictures. My average exit hole on a rib shot coyote is nickel to quarter sized. Grazing or bone hits are a mess. I will post some pictures when I get things organized.
I am also going to cut sections out of coyotes ribs and photo the lungs. Hopefully a garden hose will get all of the blood out so the “actual” damage can be seen. In that short space between the ribs a bulled doesn’t have time to do much but it some how does.
You can’t expect to drop and animal like a coyote in its tracts every time but the load you were using will do it most of the time with shots like that. I killed a coyote stone cold dead with a 22lr with that shot. Another time I sprayed blood and lungs for more than 10 feet across the snow with my 6AI. The damn coyote went 70 yards before I realized he was even hit!! One never knows.
If you are giving up exits, you are giving up penetration and that can directly result to giving up coyotes. For your range parameters a .223 with the same bullet should suit you fine. I have shot a ton of coyotes with that combination before I graduated to the swift. It wouldn’t always get the job done for me and the swift gave me better range so I made the switch and never looked back.
Thanks Kursty.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posts: 617 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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Jack Roberts
Knows what it's all about
Member # 13
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posted February 02, 2005 10:41 PM
If you are hunting, large exit wounds are what you want. Nothing kills better.
If you are collecting fur no firearm can come close to traps and snares.
Jack
Posts: 499 | From: Elko NV formerly MD | Registered: Jan 2003
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted February 03, 2005 05:37 AM
Well, I think that velocity is probably the key on most of these fur bullets. Shoot someones favorite fur bullet a couple hundred feet faster or slower and you might not be happy with the results. I've never been real impressed with 55BTs out of my 22-250, but Q shoots them 2-3 hundred ft/sec faster out of his 220 and loves them. I shoot Hornady 52 BTHPs out of my 250 at 3700+ ft/sec and really like them. Real ass kickers on coyotes, minimal fur damage and very few runners. I see posts on occasion on some boards that people don't like the hornadys, but I did see that Les Johnson uses them in his 22-250. If they weren't performing, I'm sure he wouldn't be using them.
Dennis
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