This is topic 223 or 22-250 in forum Firearms forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by coyotekid (Member # 656) on May 17, 2005, 09:19 PM:
which would be better a 223 or a 22-250 or my freind had a sks and they said it shot alright
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on May 17, 2005, 09:38 PM:
If you are looking for a cheap starter rifle, go with the .223 for now. Plenty of good cheap ammo to be had.
But in the long run, a 22-250 can hardly be beaten for an all around coyote rifle.
In either case ( Both are good choices ) stay away from the full metal jacketed bullets. They have a bad habit of penciling a coyote, the coyote runs off to die, and you never knew that you hit him.
Posted by foxhunter69 (Member # 617) on May 25, 2005, 02:32 PM:
the 22-250 is better for the longer shots but it costs a little more to shoot
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 25, 2005, 02:38 PM:
Let us say the local produce market has watermelons for sale. A whole one costs $2.00 and a half costs $1.50, or two halves would cost $3.00. Call me crazy, but for the small difference in price, I'd probably buy the whole watermelon, even if I threw half of it away. But, that's just me.
For predators, a 22-250 is a better choice, IMHO.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on May 25, 2005, 04:34 PM:
A man would be nuts to pay $3.00 for what he could get for $2.00 LOL Besides 2 halves wouldn't keep as well as a whole one ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Your not crazy"not yet"LOL
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 25, 2005, 05:14 PM:
Two years ago, after many years as an avid proponent of the .223 Remington, I came to these guys and asked pretty much the same question. Granted, there are a lot of guys down there in the desert who swear by the .223. And a lot of guys have the marksmanship to make every shot a good one using the .223. I don't fall into either of those categories. I listened to Leonard and probably still have copies of the thread around here somewhere where he and a few others encouraged me to convert to the .22-250. After a one night stand with the .25-06, I followed that advice and don't foresee me ever looking back. The meat report I get with the .22-250 is something I never enjoyed with the .223. The 250 also allows me some margin of error with my keen marksmanship. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
With the .223, I saw an occasional coyote fold and die and quite a few more marginal hits resulting in spinners, yelpers, and crippled losses. With the 250, it's been bang-whop-flop.
I agree fully with Leonard's analogy with the watermelons. But, the price isn't that much different and I can find .22-250 ammo very well suited to coyotes for less than .223 ammo at times, and even when it isn't, the differential in price is nominal when considered within the context of the additional foot-pounds downrange.
On coyotes, they are the ticket. Dead spot on. On bobcats, well, I'm a little concerned there. But, I have a new .223 that I bought special for hunting 'cats in the trees and I generally have a 12 with #4 buck lying next to my left leg when on stand. Just in case.
I bought a Howa 1500 and really love that gun. A new one rigged for optics will run you three and a half, plus the optics of your choice. Think of your rifle as the primary tool of your job. Like any other tool, it's always best in the long run to have bought quality equipment, resulting in a much better performance.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on May 26, 2005, 12:12 PM:
To bad Bushmaster, doesn't make a 22-250 in an AR. I'd trade-off my .223. In the meanwhile. I plan on getting a .243 wssm upper for the one I have now.
Posted by The Outdoor Tripp (Member # 619) on May 28, 2005, 11:02 AM:
Kid,
I own both a .223 and a .22-250 (well, actually two of the latter, but who's counting).
The .22-250 is possibly the most accurate gun I own. .223 isn't bad, and ammo much less costly.
You can't go wrong with either, but I'd give the nod to the .22-250 all things being equal.
Posted by Lungbuster (Member # 630) on May 31, 2005, 10:19 PM:
For you guys that have used both, what about fur damage, .223 vs .22-250?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 31, 2005, 11:04 PM:
Can't pin it down like that. It's strictly proper bullet selection.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Lungbuster (Member # 630) on August 12, 2005, 12:34 PM:
How about this question then, Is there a factory load for the 22-250 that doesn't tear up the fur too bad?
I have always used a shotgun for predators in the past, but I just got permission to hunt some new ground with longer shot opportunities, and I already own a 250, so now I just need some ammo that won't blow big exit holes.
Thanks.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on August 12, 2005, 02:28 PM:
Lungbuster,
Last year, I began using 55 grain BTHP's in factory loads that cost me under eleven bucks for 20 rounds. Thouht I'd give them a chance. I've shot coyotes with those loads ranging from 16 yards to well over 250 and, in truth, the long shot put more damage in the fur due to a hit on the inside shoulder. The bullet went in just at the back margin of the left rear ribs and exited at the front right shoulder, taking the scapula out and, of course, creating a bit of a hole - about 3 inches across. Sewable by all means.
All others have been under 200 with entrances and either .22-sized exits, or no exit at all. Couple weeks ago, I shot a coyote at what turned out to be 16 yards with that load and fully expected to see eyeballs and teeth all over hell when the smoke cleared. Pencil-sized entrance wound in the right shoulder and no exit holes. Whole lotta mush inside, though. I'm not a ballistics officianado (sp?) like many of these fellas, but when something works this well, I stay with it and I am very, very happy with this load.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 12, 2005, 04:03 PM:
Factory ammo? Lance, I had no idea!
Take a look on the dark side. General discusion, T&PC; which in turn, points you to an oldie but goodie.
[ August 12, 2005, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on August 12, 2005, 08:13 PM:
Yup, Factory. I was having them handloaded until the guy that was helping me admitted that he couldn't blend as good a set up as what I had found out of the box. If it works, use it.
I couldn't help myself. I had to follow your lead and go back to take a peek. That's the thread that got me inducted into the BUBBA's. I still just marvel at the lack of objectivity on that board and how that guy is able to lead his little shit minions around like he does. I regret that I had to lose my professional demeanor on that board for just a while and that God wasn't so kind as to remove them from the public view before my own words were able to discredit my otherwise gentle nature. Oh well.
John-Henry happens.
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on August 12, 2005, 11:25 PM:
That must come from hanging out with all us harelips over here Lance:)
I just finished reading that thread....gawd, it gave me a chuckle. They are a dedicated bunch for sure, just as we are here I suppose, although we are a bit more secular in our beliefs:)
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 13, 2005, 08:45 AM:
Lance he dissed you and you dissed him back, but it's not fair to lump his minnions, not all of them. There are good people over there.....misguided, for the most part, (read 17)but good people.
I'd sure like to catch the big guy misting, one day. The part I don't get is that he's smart enough to figure it out.
This is "myth busting 101"
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Curt2u (Member # 74) on August 13, 2005, 09:37 AM:
If I may stray back to the topic...lol!
"which would be better a 223 or a 22-250 or my friend had a sks and they said it shot alright"
I'm certainly no expert but I'll babble my opinion. Skip the SKS. The .223 and the 22-250 are both great predator cartridges though. The .223 is more forgiving on fur. The 22-250 is slightly more forgiving on muffed shots. However, no cartridge will make up for poor shooting. Not even the 22-250 is going to keep a coyote down if you are not putting the bullet where it should go. I see this line of thinking with elk hunters all the time. They lose an elk and the answer to the problem is to buy a faster or bigger caliber when the real problem revolved around their lack of shooting skill. As a rule, if you do your part, both cartridges will drop coyotes no problem at normal calling ranges.
I have been using the Sierra 55 gr. BTHP for years now in my 22-250 and .223. Normally it is bang flop. With this bullet I get the meat report with .223 and 22-250. That being said though, weird stuff tends to happen when dealing with coyotes. You can see coyotes have miraculous recoveries with just about any caliber and a not so well placed shot. Even an occaisional well placed shot.
Couple years ago I shot a coyote broadside with the 22-250 at 25 yards. Saw dirt fly up behind it and it scorched off down a draw apparently unscathed. Couldn't figure out how I could have missed. I walked the draw and came across a blood trail. Followed it for over 100 yards and found the coyote quite dead with a fist sized hole right behind the shoulder. What should have been a bang flop... wasn't.
Where I really see an advantage in using the 22-250 is if I have it in the truck while running around the farm and I come across a coyote that is standing farther than the normal called coyote distance, thinking he is safe. The 22-250 has an advantage at farther than normal ranges and will do the job more effectively than the .223, no doubt about it. And that advantage still revolves around the shooters ability to hit the coyote correctly. In a daytime calling scenario, I personally haven't seen a real advantage to using the 22-250. Just my opinion though. I have seen an advantage to something else not cartridge related though. I'll leave that can-o-worms closed though.
"How about this question then, Is there a factory load for the 22-250 that doesn't tear up the fur too bad?"
I have never shot a factory load out of my 22-250 at an animal. But I have shot many different bullets that I've loaded. Soft points, HPs, poly tips. In my opinion for consistent minor, easy to repair, fur damage, a good softpoint would be the way to go. Usually small entrance and a nickel size exit in my experience.
Everybody has their favorite though. I use the BTHP and really like it. My main concern is putting the coyote down first and worry about the fur later. With the HPs and poly tip bullets fur damage varies from non existent to heavy at times. Sometimes the lack of fur damage is amazing. You might have to shake the coyote to get it to bleed. Other times the massive amount of trauma is equally amazing.
One thing is for sure though. No matter what bullet you think is best, someone else will come along to say it's the worst they have used. lol! ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Good hunting
Posted by Lungbuster (Member # 630) on August 13, 2005, 11:28 AM:
Thanks Cdog and Curt,
Cdog, would you mind sharing with me what brand of ammo the BTHP'S were that you are refering to?
Thanks.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 13, 2005, 11:34 AM:
Good post, Curt.
These questions are very difficult to answer, even from a perspective with a lot of experience.
I have killed animals with both cartridges and a wide variety of bullets. Couple that with the fact that no two specific events have identical circumstances, and the whole subject seems to get blurry, hard to make positive statements. We tend to generalize.
Things like, does the damage from a 223 at 100 yards look very much like the damage from a 22-250 at 200 yards; same bullet, same presentation?
These is no pat answer to the "less damage" question, with either cartridge.
There is something to be said for the superior performance of the 22-250. Now, you get into the question of killing them gently.
Always get's back to my personal belief that a heavier constructed bullet that steams on through the animal without a lot of expansion; is the best compromise.
But wait a minute. Some have the "no exit" philosophy. Well, you need to be sure of your expected ranges and be very disiplined in picking your shots. I can see different loads for cats and foxes, if that's the way you choose. The biggest mistake, or the inability to face facts, is that people that subscribe to this method need to acknowledge that it is far from foolproof.
That's the whole thing, in a nutshell. Blow them in half, see a lot of runners, or marvel at an animal so unmarked that he looks like he had a heart attack.
I'm really sorry to have to break the news: dealing with high velocity hunting bullets, you cannot achieve 100% uniformity. Pay your money and take your choice.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on August 13, 2005, 03:08 PM:
I had promised myself to never again give advice on caliber or bullet choice for coyotes, and now I am about to break that promise. Read what Leonard has stated in his above posts in regard to bullets for coyote. He has been there and done that. For either the .223 or .22-.250 you need a good strong bullet. One very good coyote bullet is the 55 grain Sierra "Gameking". I say this even though I realize that a lot of fellers are going to now go buy a bunch of BlitzKings, Varminters, SX or maybe MatchKings. Not all 55 grainers are equal.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on August 13, 2005, 03:58 PM:
Lungbuster-
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd/product.asp?dept%5F id=20216&sku=74148&imgid=&mscssid=Q3FW3B7S0JGV8HRF1M4ANU0U4B8E97K6
and, as Rich pointed out, they're loaded with Sierra Gamekings. Great bullet for coyotes.
[ August 13, 2005, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on August 16, 2005, 08:16 PM:
Curt. You could shoot gas checked leads for fur friendly rounds out of a 250. I used to load these for rabbitshooting and an occassional fox.
Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on August 16, 2005, 10:37 PM:
I have both. I got a couple Ar's in .223 and just last year I went with a 22-250 in the Savage with the new trigger. I like the Ar's here in the brush, but the 22-250 is hard to beat in my book. Good range, very good coyote round.
If you go with a factory load try the white box win's. WalMart carries them here.They shoot very good out of the 22-250. And dont tear up the furs real bad, I have shot coyotes from 8 yards to 250 yards and they do a fair job. And shoot very well.
I did load up some big rounds for the 22-250 but havent tryed them out yet. 62 grains I think cant remember for sure with out looking.
If I was looking at a new one or a starter gun I would go with the new savage with the new trigger. Very sweet guns and priced very well. If I was going to go cheap, I may go with the .223 in the NEF. They shoot good as well. I bought one for my son a few years ago and it has killed several coyote, and shoots well.
Brent
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