The New Huntmastersbbs!: Perfect Predator gun

This is topic Perfect Predator gun in forum Firearms forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://www.huntmastersbbs.com/cgi-bin/cgi-ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000206

Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on January 02, 2006, 10:38 AM:

That's right, I said gun, not rifle. Every person has a different application to hunting predators. And for some, the perfect weapon of choice might be a shotgun, not a rifle.

What is your favorite, and how does your application of it, make it perfect for what you do?

When hunting fox and coyotes at night, by myself. My favorite was a ten gauge shotgun loaded with either copper plated lead BB's or #4 buck. If I had someone hunting with me, to work the light and call, I preferred the 17 Remington. for it's pinpoint accuracy and lack of fur damage.

For daytime calling, When I want to save the fur. I still go with the 17 Remington. It is rare for me to shoot a called coyote at over 100 yards, most are 25-50 yards out

For midrange shooting ( 400 yards and under ), or when I don't plan on saving any fur, I go with a 243 Winchester, or 7mm Remington magnum.

For longrange shooting, I like my 300 Tomahawk. But I am thinking once again about building a new rifle in 7mm for this application.

How do you prefer to hunt predators, and what gun have you found to be the best suited for your application of it?

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 02, 2006, 12:30 PM:

In the first place, there is not a perfect predator gun. I think what Tim is asking is; what do you use, and why, and in what ways can it be improved?

The reason I say this is because there are so many differing places to hunt and different styles of hunting them. Never mind the fact that a lot of hunters select a different "weapon" (I dislike that word) depending on their target animal, be it little foxes, delicate bobcats or 50+ pound eastern coyotes.

I have different style rifles for day hunting, in different states. I have four different rifles for night hunting, different calibers and different configuration, with different glass.

First, what would be a proper chambering for a dedicated predator gun? In my case, it has to start with a 22-250 and go up from there, and if there is any downsizing in consideration of the animal, it has to be in bullet selection.

The heaviest dedicated coyote caliber I use is 25'06 Ackley, the heaviest bullet is 100 grain, in 25 or 24 caliber.

I have known some capable hunters that use a combo gun, Savage or Valmet. Seems to work, but there is a serious delay between the first and second shots, from either barrel. Heavy, lacks a few refinements, handling is a little awkward. I'd give one of these guns a little more thought if they were chambered in a serious predaor cartridge. They seem to be mostly 222 or 223, or 308 under a twelve gauge, sometimes with a 3" chamber.

As much thought as you put into selecting a rifle based on the cartridge, you should put into the scope. I see some odd combinations, 6X18 scope with a large objective mounted on a relatively short range chambering. And, same thing with powerful cartridges, but using a scope meant for prairie dog towns. Well, to each his own?

If a guy has varied terrain to hunt, brush and wide open plains, does some night hunting and day stands and handloads....all predator hunters should handload, as far as I'm concerned. But, if you are looking for the all around rifle, take your pick of the various factory rifles out there, paying close attention to stock design and select either a 22-250 or maybe a 243? Too much gun for you fur hunters? Well, that's another subject, altogether.

So, what you got?

Good hunting. LB

edited for spelling

[ January 02, 2006, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by Hawkeye (Member # 216) on January 02, 2006, 12:52 PM:

In the thicker stuff which I try to stay away from I use a short barreled 17REM and 12 guage 3 1/2inch w/#4. In the more open stuff I use 6BR with 55grain BTs or my 22-243AI with 75grain Amax. Like Tim Im in the process of having a 7mm most likely WSM built for that really long range stuff. I think the most versatile round to be the 243.

Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on January 02, 2006, 12:59 PM:

Leonard,

Until this year I would have totally agreed with you.As far as the .22-250 and up goes.Since most of my calling for the last 20 years has been with one(.22-250).With some calling with a .223 Rem. and a .223 AI with which I much prefer the latter of the two.But I've been using my .204 ruger alot this year and it continues to impress the hell out of me.I haven't been calling a lot this year but have managed to kill 14 coyotes so far with it, from 75-300+ yards bang/flops except one,that one I hit high,but he never went more than 5 feet from where I hit him.Granted it still has along way to go to prove anything but hey it a nice start.If I were calling for big numbers,or contests and/or predator control I'd still go with the .22-250 but that .204 is a damn fun gun to shoot. [Wink]

Good Hunting Chad

[ January 02, 2006, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 02, 2006, 01:15 PM:

HEY! Hawkeye's back! We missed you and Mark Zepp at the campout. What happened? Be sure and tell Mark that I did not wish to piss him off with my comments about his video. I know that he is wanting to offset production expenses, but some people are offended by so many plugs and commercial endorsements. Other than that, I enjoyed it very much.

In any case, congratulations, you made some excellent shots on that video.

How many shots do you have through your 22/243AI? What twist? How many shots do you think you have left?

Good hunting. LB

[ January 02, 2006, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 02, 2006, 01:44 PM:

My main target animal is the coyote. When I started driving down to north texas every year, I found that the range can be long and the wind can be horribly strong. I call all of my coyotes in daytime, and I lost a few at the longer ranges with my .22-.250. I didn't like that very much, so I had a .25-06 built on a Mauser 98 action. I topped it with a Bushnell Trophy model scope in 3x-9x-40mm. Shooting 90 grain Sierra hpbt "Gamekings" out of that quarter bore at around 3500 fps accounted for many dead coyotes. Once I learned to whack em on the run, I didn't lose very many coyotes with that bugger. I ended up having a second Mauser 98 built in .25-06 for a backup. In later years I had a short action Mauser built in .257 Ackley. I did a lot of the work on the Ackley myself, so I have a special kind of fondness for it. I mounted a Nikon Monarch, 3x-9x-40mm scope on this rifle and currently shoot the 100 grain flat base Sierra "Pro-hunter" bullets through it at 3200 fps. The only down side to the Mauser rifles is that they are heavy. That part didn't bother me ten years ago, but it does now. If I ever decide to plunk down the bucks for a new coyote rifle to use while calling, it will probably be a Browning A bolt "Micro hunter" in .243 Winchester. It will probably wear a 3x-9x-40mm Burris scope, and I will probably shoot the Sierra 85 grain "Gameking" bullets through it.

Posted by Hawkeye (Member # 216) on January 02, 2006, 02:27 PM:

Leonard we were hunting are way up to the campout on saturday I wasnt doing very well called it a day early and went home. I would bet Mark would not be pissed off. As far as the 22-243 goes Ive got close to 250 rounds fired by the way its an 8twist, Ive been told I wont make 500 rounds Ive been told 600 to 700 max. Wait and see I guess. Im not pushing at 3410fps. Thanks on the congrats on the shooting.

Posted by sparkyibewlocal440 (Member # 397) on January 02, 2006, 09:37 PM:

Two seasons ago I had a .224 Vais built,for a dedicated coyote rifle,thinking I needed a"point and shoot gun".Velocity with a 50 grain Ballistic tip is at 4350 fps.Set it to hit 1.75" at 100 yards.It hits 5" low at 400 and 10" at 450.I killed 142 coyotes with it last year.Maybe 10 of those 142 where killed over 300 yards.The longest was at 360 and I did'nt allow for holdover,it's like a lighting bolt.Don't care how long the bore lasts,there's more at the store.However,If I get just 500 rounds with it, that's allot of Coyotes for the price of a re-barrell.I try and clean the bore after every 10 rounds to prevent carbon build up.After 250 rounds,It takes an additional seating depth of .035" to touch the lands from when it was new.I think it's a real shame to use this baby at the typical range a called in coyote is shot at,way too much horsepower,but catch one out in an open field or pasture and it kicks ass.This season I've been using a .22 Middlestead with 55 NBT's,so far so good.

Posted by Rob Love (Member # 723) on January 03, 2006, 03:42 AM:

This I believe we all will or have embarked upon.
I’m currently working on a multi-duty tool for calling and deer. It’s a .223 with an 8 1/2” Twist and McCormick trigger from GA Precision. You can see what it will look like at their web site. I’m mounting my existing Night Force on top and then a red dot on the side or a laser. This should give me decent accuracy with the heaver bullets out to 600yds and for the close movers the red dot would provide quick target acquisition. Well we‘ll see when it gets here and I can get it to the range.
I hear the is a 1000 yd range about 60 miles west of me in a town called Mingus, This will be a fun experiment.

Posted by Saddlemaker (Member # 321) on January 03, 2006, 12:32 PM:

Tim,
When I had a trappers license and lived in California I used a 222 Remington with a 52grain Speer hollowpoint and hand calls. Now that I'm in Arizona I enjoy using either a lever action or single shot rifle 45-70 to 45-110 and hand calls since smokeless powder is just a passing fad. I kinda like the smell of black powder. I try to keep the shots under 100 yards, 50 to 75 being better. I still use hand calls but am going to move into the 21 century and try a electronic.

Since my hunting partner refuses to believe the Calender went past about 1881 I'm afraid when I use the electronic I'll be hunting alone or with a different partner and my triple deuce again.

For long range I prefer the 243 AI with 107grain Hornady or Sierra and a 1 in 7 twist. I've seen these rifles shoot right along with the big loudenboomers at the 1000yard range at Three Points with a lot less recoil. In my mind less recoil means less fatigue at the end of the string.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 03, 2006, 12:38 PM:

You know Three Points?

Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on January 03, 2006, 01:39 PM:

Well, as for shotguns. My favorite, was my Marlin 12ga. model 55 36"barrel, 3"mag Goose Gun. She was a lug, to carry. But she really reached out there.

As for rifle's, I like this new Oly .243WSSM AR upper. Bucks the wind pretty good. Pretty accurate out of the box.

I've only killed one coyote with it, so far[95gr Win BT]. A little female. To much trauma after the 2nd tag. Hope thats not the norm [with this ammo]on the long ones.

Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on January 03, 2006, 03:21 PM:

Afew months back,i stated [something to the effect] i didn't care much about using a shotgun on coyotes.Too many coyotes were getting away,hit with a shotgun(not by me)but others.

After watching the video[Predator Pursuit,]made a believer out of me.I since purchased an H&R topper deluxe in 12 gauge 31/2 inch mag.It's a light single shot that kicks like hell!
If it weren't for the shotgun,i would be a few coyotes shorter this season.My favorite rifle is the remington,in 243 winchester,using the 100 gr.pointed soft point.

Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on January 03, 2006, 03:37 PM:

Saddlemaker,

I've sat on that 1,000 yard firing line a number of times, listening to the Cowboy action shoots going on below. Sounds like a lot of fun.

I grew up shooting cap and ball revolvers, and keep thinking about picking up another one.

Posted by Saddlemaker (Member # 321) on January 03, 2006, 06:33 PM:

Leonard,
The Three Points range I'm referring to is South of Tucson on the Ajo Highway.

Tim,
I got a limit of quail for the first time (15) last Sunday. Found a water tank South of Marana that held more quail than I've seen in a long time. Lot's of coyote sign but to close to homes to be safe. Hows the birds in your neck of the woods?

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 03, 2006, 07:07 PM:

Oh yeah, I know the place quite well. LB

Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on January 03, 2006, 07:49 PM:

Just pick one. Have added four more sice this picture was taken.

Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on January 04, 2006, 06:56 AM:

I'll put another spin on this one. My bottom limit is the .223 and I shoot my AR alot in the winter. Close in called coyotes and it is the handiest damn pickup gun ever. It has accounted for numerous cats and coyotes out the window, and it has saved me a couple cats that pulled out of traps as I pulled up in a vehicle, but in the summer time it collects dust. But I do have an upper limit and it has nothing to do with caliber necessarily. But recoil. I want to see the bullet hit. I want to know if a coyote was hit and where, for me it is a must, and if the gun is too light or the load to heavy I can't tolerate it. I want to see a coyote crumple (or run if thats the case) so that I know what I am doing next. Whether it is following up a shot, concentrating on a second coyote, or just picking up brass.

Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on January 04, 2006, 08:35 AM:

quote:
I since purchased an H&R topper deluxe in 12 gauge 31/2 inch mag.It's a light single shot that kicks like hell!

Hey Melvin, what load/choke are you running in your H&R?

later,
scruffy

Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on January 04, 2006, 10:07 AM:

I keep it fairly simple, I use three different rifles,all small caliber, considering what most others use. I have a CZ 22 hornet that I use when I know Im just going to the tight rocky canyons in the mountains for fox and the possible bobcat. Most all my other calling situations I take either my 19 Calhoon hornet, or my 17 rem, either one works equally well on coyotes, unless Im going to the really wide open areas I sometimes hunt, where I could possibly have a long shot situation, then the 17 rem is in the case.

Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on January 04, 2006, 02:12 PM:

I’m in the camp that doesn’t believe that there is just one perfect predator hunting rifle. Like several of you have already pointed out, different places, different conditions and times make room for different rifles to cover each.

Me, I call daylight stands the vast majority of the time. In typically fairly open Western high desert terrain. And do like to skin my coyotes when the fur is good. I also very much prefer to see my shots in the scope, like Cal brought up. This has led me to using a .17 caliber for most of my calling. Since custom rifles and hand loading are hobbies I enjoy, my taste in chamberings tends to be kind of esoteric. But really, for the most part, I’m not getting anything done with my hot rods that can’t be done with factory chambers.

My current favorite “every stand” rifle is a stainless Model Seven action in a McMillan Rem. Classic pattern stock, with a Lilja #4, 24” long, chambered for the .17 Predator which is based on the .223 case and runs a couple hundred fps faster than the .17 Rem.

I really like my .17 Mach IV for a lot of situations too, but it hasn’t made it out this year, just loving on my .17P too much.

I’m working on a new one with a very similar configuration, except with barrels chambered in .20-250 and 6-284. Those will be for situations where either I’m not overly concerned with fur, targets of opportunity out there on the far side of 300 yards, or where I just want to be sure the coyotes don’t take a step after getting hit. I’ve been using a .22-250AI and a 6AI for this stuff, and they work great. But I like trying new stuff.

As for stocks, I’ve settled on the Remington Classic pattern. I don’t care for wide forends on a calling rifle. Or Monte Carlo’s or raised cheekpieces. Or vertical pistol grips. Or palm swells. Or thumbholes. I do like checkering, for it’s function not it’s looks. In other words, I pretty much eschew all the “features” found on a lot of factory “varmint rifle” stocks. Just give me a plain old “classic” style stock for my calling rifles, thank you very much! For a calling rifle, I’m not the least bit adverse to walnut, either. Although most of mine do sport synthetics, and I do appreciate the advantages inherent in a good synthetic.

Scopes… Kind of a do as I say not as I do kind of thing. Almost all of my calling rigs have 4.5-14x40’s. But that’s because most of my calling rifles also get used for shooting rock chucks. I really think a fixed 6x is all a dedicated calling rifle needs. Nothing wrong with a plain old 3x9 either. But, most of mine carry more glass than needed for a dedicated calling rifle.

So, I spend a lot of money on rifles, pursuing the perfect rifle for every situation. But I think a guy could do just fine, and have a lot of fun, simply choosing his favorite factory rifle in his choice of .22-250, .220 Swift or .243 Win., and topping it with either a high quality fixed 6x or 3x9. I’ve got a 700 ADL synthetic, in .22-250, with a Burris 6X on it, bone stock except for my trigger job, and I think I could use it and nothing else, and kill almost all the same coyotes I kill now.

- DAA

Posted by dogcaller (Member # 776) on January 04, 2006, 03:37 PM:

1st post! [Cool]

My favorite in an 18" Wilson AR; optics vary a bit. Usually a Leupold 1.75-5X, or an EoTech. The EoTech is FAST! Whether I hunt mountains or desert, the shots are rarely more than ~150 yds (that would be a long one), and I like the fast follow-up shots for the runners.

I'll use any good hp or psp load, but I have a soft spot in my heart for 40 gr. ballistic tips.

If I'm with a buddy, one of us will carry a tube. Mine alternates between a short barrelled Benelli M1 or a Mossberg 835 "goose grabber" 3.5" chambered 12 ga.

My only complaint is NOT ENOUGH TIME!! [Mad]

I just noticed that Sparky is also in SoCal. That's a lot of dogs! Go ahead and just email me the directions to your hunting honey pot! [Big Grin]

Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on January 04, 2006, 06:04 PM:

scruffy,most of my shots are at close range...9 pellet-00BK...I'm switching to no.4
If your shooting in open country,try the no.4 buck,i think it is better.[you get a much better pattern.]should be good out to fifty yards.

[ January 04, 2006, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: Melvin ]

Posted by rooster32 (Member # 61) on January 04, 2006, 09:06 PM:

My .17 MIV is my favorite coyote gun right now. Built on a Rem action with a #4 Lilja 24" 9 twist 4 groove all wrapped up in a H&S stock. Has a 3x9 VII on top. Shooting 25gr Bergers it works well for me. My shots are usually under 150yrds.

I have a .221 FB that I like to shoot and have taken a few coyotes with it, but since building the MIV it doesn't get out much.

Was actually looking around today for a .243 to add to the collection. Figure my son (6yrs old) will need a rifle to hunt deer with shortly and figured I could whack a few coyotes with it in the next few years till he's ready [Wink]

(at least that the story the wife is getting).

Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on January 05, 2006, 05:12 PM:

DAA,

Every time you get to talking about that .17 Predator, I get all wishy washy on what rifle I want to build the most.

I really want to build a big new boomer in 7mm to reach out and touch a few things. But a light weight, handy little calling rifle like your .17 Predator just sounds like too much fun.

I wonder if Dan will make a deal on two barrel orders? [Big Grin]

(I wonder if the wife would get pissed if I ordered two barrels? [Eek!]

)

Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on January 05, 2006, 05:55 PM:

Tim, I ordered two barrels from Dan last month. He charged me full price! [Smile]

- DAA

Posted by catskin (Member # 51) on January 05, 2006, 08:24 PM:

I also built a 17 Predator Tim, it still has a the factory Model Seven stock though - I used a 26" #2 Lilja - it 'fits' really nice and handles well with a 3x9x40 3200 scope - I may keep the stock - those M7 stocks fit us small guys pretty good. What you need is five barrels for a better price [Smile]

I'll take at least one.

We will be down your way the week after next, save Mike Shaun and I at least enough time for a beer or six.

[ January 05, 2006, 08:28 PM: Message edited by: catskin ]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 05, 2006, 10:19 PM:

I just went back and reread the original question. All this time, I was thinking of a perfect rifle for the average predator hunter. Not so, it's what do I think.

The best all around rifle I own is a 22-250 Ackley. It has probably killed XXX coyotes, some close, some way out yonder. Literally, I can't miss with that gun. I'm going to ask my son if he can recall that I ever missed a coyote with that particular rifle, because I can't?

Good hunting. LB

Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on January 06, 2006, 12:09 AM:

Leonard I have a modicum of a idea of the number of Coyotes you have killed. If you have one that you have never missed with. I don't care what caliber it is, what brand. I think you have defined the perfect Coyote gun. I will even through in a couple of points for it's owners shooting skills.

Posted by TheHuntedOne (Member # 623) on January 06, 2006, 08:49 AM:

The best gun for me depends on where I am hunting. Mostly I use a Mossberg 935 12 gauge with a red dot scope on the ground, but if there is a chance that I will also get to hunt a farm with some fields I will take the Browning BAR also with a red dot in 243. If I am going to be hunting out of the tree stands, I take the Savage in 243 which has a regular scope on it.

I like the autos because of the close in action and the sometimes need for quick second shots when two or more show up, not because I am an eastern hunter who can't shoot [Smile]

21 years in the Marine Corps, I may not be as good as some of you folks, but I can hold my own in a firefight.

Al
THO Custom Game Calls

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on January 06, 2006, 06:49 PM:

The perfect predator gun for me would be one of them ol' fashioned giant shotguns, they used to use to shoot whole flocks of ducks. [Razz]

I could call for a while, then just blow the whole woods to hell, and go see what I killed. [Smile]

Krusty

Posted by Jack Roberts (Member # 13) on January 06, 2006, 10:41 PM:

You nailed it Krusty, those punt guns were awesume. However, I always thought they were an East Coast thing, mostly around the Chesapeake Bay. Never heard of any being used in the West.

Jack

Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on January 07, 2006, 05:19 AM:

Krusty,

I made a post over on [PM], awhile back. About shooting/killing coyotes "well past" 50-60yrds max...HUH! [Confused]

. With my 12ga 3" [non-tubed...duh! [Big Grin]

] 36" barrel Marlin Goose Gun.

Caught some flak over that post, LOL! Most folks don't/didn't buy into that [Roll Eyes]

. They never tried it [Roll Eyes]

I guess I was "leading" "some" "new-guys" a stray [Roll Eyes]

#3 & #00 Buck, will knock a coyote, like a Mack truck way out there.

ex-long range shotgunner-dogs [Big Grin]

Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on January 07, 2006, 07:35 AM:

Better be careful 2dogs.

Some critters get pissed whn you just fling lead in the air in their general direction.

Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on January 07, 2006, 10:13 AM:

LOL! Tim

cats; The other white meat [Smile]

La meow-dogs [Big Grin]

Posted by Doggitter (Member # 489) on January 10, 2006, 08:22 PM:

Tim, maybe you'll have to build a little boomer like I'ma gonna make. .17DG. Shortened swift case, so I can use my .243 as a base. I can't remember so I'll blame it on Dave that said I'll absolutely, positively, fersuredly get 30's @ 4,200 feets per secands. :>) [Big Grin]

[ January 11, 2006, 05:18 PM: Message edited by: Doggitter ]

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on January 10, 2006, 11:06 PM:

Jack,

You used to be an east coast thing... and yer doin' okay out here. No? [Wink]

Hey, if nothing else, there'd be a shooting lane there (where I fired the punt gun) for a few months.

2Dogs,

Some folks just don't like anything.

And that's all I have to say about that. [Roll Eyes]

Krusty

[ January 10, 2006, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]

Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on January 11, 2006, 03:35 AM:

Doggitter,

That Dave is definitly a bad influence. We need to be on guard against him. [Wink]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 11, 2006, 07:47 AM:

Heck, Tim. Buy two. They don't last long. LB

UBB.classic^TM 6.3.0