The New Huntmastersbbs!: Chronograph

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on March 24, 2006, 08:31 PM:

Even though it was windier than heck, I went to the range today, practice is good no matter what. [Smile]

I got to shoot my 7.62x54 through a chronograph.

Using the 123 gr Hornady SPs, pushed by 47gr of IMR 4895, I got an average of 2495.5fps.
I dunno if that's fast or slow, but I got a pretty consistant speed (2484-2508, for a variance of only 24fps).

I think Leonard is right, when I have time to think about aiming, I mess up. If I "just shoot" I do a lot better, I shot my best 50 yd group in under 30 seconds (loading one shot at a time into the magazine)... breath out, aim, fire, load.

I have yet to repeat my ragged hole, or even a group I could cover with a quarter, but it's good 'nuff fer me. [Wink]

It seems like it takes about a whole box of shells to calm down after a really good cleaning too (which I did, knocking rocks out of the bank behind the 200 yd targets).

Is a chronograph really a good thing? [Big Grin]

Poor Red, all his guns (SKS, 30-06, and .444) were quite a bit slower than the numbers he expected, and he was feeling pretty bad... but the Handi-Hornet saved the day, running a few hundred feet faster than expected (just like our .222 does), and grouping the Nosler 40 grain ballistic tips very well.

They opened the gate to my favorite calling area last week (been locked for the last three months), I'm gonna go make one last attempt to kill a stooooopid gat-dang coyote tomorrow... gawd I hope I stumble onto some fricken luck out there.

Krusty

Posted by greasewood (Member # 815) on March 24, 2006, 11:00 PM:

I've wanted to get into handloading, but up to now, never have the time.

Fortunately, with an upcoming shift change, I'll have more time.

There's a lot of reloading stuff that you can buy, including a chronograph.

People develop accurate loads for their rifles all the time without a chronograph, so how much do you gain by using one?

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 24, 2006, 11:10 PM:

Welcome to the New Huntmasters, greasewood. Glad to have you on board.

Yes, I developed accurate loads before I owned a real chronograph, but I was always dependent on published data, for my velocity and had to compare one load against another by how high each was shooting, relative to the point of aim.

So, a chronograph tells you right away which is the best load, without excessive pressures. And, it gives you the consistancy, shot to shot, reasons for fliers.

It's just another tool, but it's unique information that would be hard to get, otherwise.

Good hunting. LB

[ March 24, 2006, 11:10 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by greasewood (Member # 815) on March 25, 2006, 10:00 PM:

LB,

Thanks for the greeting. I'm glad to be onboard.

My experience with reloading has been with pistol cartridges, on a Dillon Square Deal.

I've looked into rifle reloading, but I'm kind of overwhelmed by the number of different types of presses and all the other gadgets and gizmos.

I'd like to develop some loads for my 22-250 to replace the factory ammo that I'm now shooting.

Single stage, or progressive reloader? What do you guys think?

Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on March 25, 2006, 10:08 PM:

Greasewood,

It depends on your objective. Do you want to make a lot of bullets to fling a lot of lead, or make fewer more accurate bullets?

Progressives can really turn out the bullets, but at the cost of accuracy.

I'd keep the Progressives for the handguns, and get a Rockchucker for the rifles.

Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on March 26, 2006, 09:57 AM:

Here is an example of how a Chronograph can help.

This morning I was working up a new load with AA8700 I've never tried this powder before. I was shooting 3 shot groups over the chrony, but really wasn't finding what I was looking for on paper. One group gave me an ES ( Extreme Spread ) of only 10 FPS. But on paper the group was over 2" nearly all vertical.

Two main causes of vertical spread are inconstant velocity and shoulder pressure. ( Mostly shoulder pressure )

So I tried that load again, free recoil. Now I'm glad that I did, my next group was barely over 3/4" And the ES stayed at 10

Now I can plug the velocity that I got from the Chrony into my ballistics program and get a drop chart that may not get me on the bulls eye at longer ranges, but it should be close enough to get me on paper. Saving me a lot of extra rounds fired.

Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on March 26, 2006, 10:14 AM:

Any advice on which reasonably priced chronograph to buy?

Thanks

[ March 26, 2006, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: Lonny ]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 26, 2006, 10:45 AM:

Well, that is a large problem, Lonny. I really think the best "reasonable" chrono on the market is the one I have; a Oehler 35P. They recently announced that the were discontinuing that model. They also make the ballistic laboratory, I think it is the model 43, but that is a lot more money. Maybe they have plans for something else for the hobbyist, I don't know? But, parts for the 35, and the 35P flew off the shelves right after the announcement.

Of what is left, my guess is the Pact is a much better machine than the Chrony, but I don't have any experience with either one. Just bits and pieces of conversation gleaned off the internet, and while at the range.

If nothing else, borrow an Oehler from a friend, leave a deposit, whatever? Years ago, before I owned one, I used to pay a buck a shot at the public range, but that leaves a lot to be desired, if you ask me?

Maybe some (Oehler) machines will show up on Ebay, some must have been purchased in the frenzy strictly for speculation?

Good hunting. LB

edit: I can't give you an exact figure on what a 35P costs, or did cost? The "P" stands for printer, by the way, you can buy it with or without. I got mine from Brownells, and including 2 lighting stands and a longer 4' spacing pipe, and the carrying case, I think it was somewhere between $450 and $500?

[ March 26, 2006, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on March 26, 2006, 11:41 AM:

Tim,

Your "shoulder presseure" statement gives me a lot to think about.

I really need to do something about this stock... the forend is rubbing again (the action has sunk back into the stock after the shim job), the angle of the wrist is awkward, the cheek too low, and the toe angle is wrong (the sharp edged steel buttplate is killing me, a couple boxes of 180gr Winny white box, and I'm hurt [Frown]

).

I have an idea to do a laminated AK style tailstock, with a pistol grip, a cheek similar to the "Winslow" pattern on Mr. C's old work horse (and our Newton/Mauser), and a better toe angle (with a limbsaver pad), by splicing it in just behind the action.
Bedding the action, shortening the forend (exposing the barrel), and camo'ing it, would finish it up nicely.

Greasewood,

RCBS makes a start-up kit that includes a Rockchucker Jr press, they seem a pretty good (and popular) way to go.

Leonard,

I'd have gladly paid a buck a shot, but the guy was nice enough to turn down any offer of payment.
He did make me prove I had $150 on me, and let us shoot over it, on the "you shoot it you own it" plan.

We tried to talk him into just selling it to us used, and upgrading... we almost had it.

Krusty

Posted by Doggitter (Member # 489) on March 26, 2006, 12:21 PM:

Krusty, it's coming....
"I really need to do something about this stock... "
You're changing things around on this gun, fixing this problem, modifying that.... Consider that as you go, you may have been better off to get a real hunting gun. Been there. done that. Spent a lot of time and effort fussing with one that wasn't ever going to be what I wanted. Sure, I had it and each "upgrade" didn't soak me much. But, wish I hadn't "been there". Sorry if I'm squashing toes here but there's a better life out there... :>)

[ March 26, 2006, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: Doggitter ]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 26, 2006, 12:52 PM:

K, I'm not sure you understand what Tim meant by shoulder pressure. It's the difference between snugging the stock up tight against your shoulder, and not touching it, at all, allowing free recoil.

Good hunting. LB

considering the previous comment, he's right, of course. But there is something to be learned by assuming a project such as yours, even if when you are finished, it still lacks a certain "refinement".

edit: the offer by the guy with the chrono is reasonable, considering that (last I heard?) sky screens cost $50 each, and an Oehler has three.

[ March 26, 2006, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on March 26, 2006, 02:25 PM:

Thanks for the info Leonard.

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on March 26, 2006, 07:21 PM:

Doggitter,

So far the changes I made didn't take long at all (less time than it took to clean it of cosmoline), and haven't cost a dime.
All I have "done" is shim the action (to float the barrel) which cured the diagonal stringing, and changed/tried bullets, and powders.

After changing the stock, I'll sell off the military parts I won't need, which should nearly pay for the rifle itself (and a pair of swivel studs, so I can use my good speed sling).

You're right, things have changed for me, and I could now go out and buy anything I want. But when I started this, I had to scrape together the $79 just to buy the thing.

The Remington .222 will probably be my main calling rifle (now that the Sako extractor throws empties into the next county [Smile]

), but I don't generally bail on a project (once I've started) until I finish it.

I don't ever expect to turn this "sow's ear" into a silk purse, but it's already a good sow's ear bag.
And I think I'd enjoy making it more comfortable as much as the comfort (even if it never goes hunting).

Leonard,

I dang near asked Tim what he meant (I was lost on bullet shoulder for a minute).
But I got it.

Yeah, when finished my M-44 custom will lack a certain refinement, but in the same sense so do my "custom" calls, and I'm okay with that. [Wink]

And at the same time it will have a level of refinement few other Mosin-Nagant's have achieved... the nicest "beater" around, for less than the price of a steak.

Being unique has value, for me. [Smile]

So does being frugal.

The chronograph I shot over had two pairs of V sticks, and a blue "base" on a tripod. The $150 covered the base only, none of the wires, printer, benchtop screen, etc.
If he'd have sold it to us, the price would have gone up some, and/or we'd have needed to buy some accesories.

Krusty

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on September 13, 2006, 09:52 PM:

The "sow's ear"...

Krusty

Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on September 13, 2006, 10:15 PM:

Got any before fotos Krusty? I guess I hadnt seen it before?

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on September 14, 2006, 12:20 PM:

Before (not my rifle);

Krusty

Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on September 14, 2006, 01:09 PM:

Very cool!! I had no idea by looking that was an old 30cal carbine. Pretty neat idea.

Had a buddy in high school that deer hunted with one of those with a 30 round clip. Didnt shoot the straightest, but he could lay down enough fire to get the job done most times. [Big Grin]

Posted by J_hun (Member # 872) on September 14, 2006, 05:42 PM:

Hey Krusty, I was wondering where you were haven't seen any post lately. Good luck on your hunting.

Posted by doggin coyotes (Member # 914) on September 14, 2006, 08:12 PM:

I don't think you'll ever find a 30 round *clip* for a Mosin M44. And some folks might call ya an amatuer for calling a MAGAZINE a clip. Kinda like calling a coyote a yote or dog. [Big Grin]

Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on September 14, 2006, 09:01 PM:

OK, so just what is the difference between a magazine and a clip?

I've always considered a magazine to be a storage compartment for stacked rounds, and a clip was a magazine that could be removed.

Do I have it backwards? What's the difference?

Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on September 14, 2006, 09:08 PM:

I dont know either Tim?

I am an amatuer in the area of military surplus firearms though...

Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on September 14, 2006, 09:20 PM:

Tim, you're compass is pointing South. A clip is usually used one time like the stripper clips on the Springfield 03. Also the pop out clips of the M1 Garand. A magazine is intended for reuse after being empted like most of the semi auto pistols and rifles made lately.

In these parts clip and magazine mean the same thing.

Posted by Jack Roberts (Member # 13) on September 14, 2006, 10:15 PM:

varmint hunter nailed it.
A clip is what is used to load the magazine.

Jack

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 14, 2006, 10:18 PM:

I think most of us old M1 soldiers know the difference. Kids!

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on September 15, 2006, 05:45 AM:

http://www.thegunzone.com/clips-mags.html

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on September 15, 2006, 07:27 PM:

I've been useing the chrony for years and like Tim B. it can help you fine tune a load or find a good powder, primer combo. Nothing against the 20 cal. but take them out and have them chronographed, you will be surprised. If the vel isn't that badd then shoot it when the temp is 32 degrees or colder, the vel. really drops off.

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on September 16, 2006, 09:31 PM:

Andy,

This ol' thing shoots pretty good, if I am up to the task. If it shoots crappy, it's my fault.

Are you thinking M-1 (30 cal) Carbine?

This thing is WAY more gun than that, lying between a .308 and a 30-06 ballistics wise.

J_hun,

I don't really post anymore, I just (finally) got the photos done, and this is a subject that was sorta stuck in my craw.

Thanks for the well wishes,

Krusty

Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on September 16, 2006, 11:10 PM:

Yep Krusty, thats what I was thinkin of. Goes to show you how much I know about military rifles. Looked like one to me. Its only been 20yrs or so since Ive seen one in person.

Looks good though. Good on ya.

[Cool]

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