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Author
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Topic: 20-250 Ackley
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted September 29, 2007 04:58 PM
DAA, and whomever else may have tried this project, What the verdict? I'm thinking about a new toy. I have a Sako action that is craving a new barrel.
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
Posts: 1034 | From: out yonder | Registered: Apr 2007
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted September 29, 2007 05:24 PM
3Toes,
Funny you post this topic.I have a Remington 700 .22-250 that's about due for a new barrel and I have been seriously considering going with a .20-250.So I'll be watching the replies too.
Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted September 29, 2007 10:27 PM
I had a 22-250 ackley built a few years ago. Nice cartridge to work with and not to difficult to load for.. I like to use the 52 gr. A-max in mine with N-140 or N-540 powder. you will gain 100-150 fps maybe a little more over the factory 22-250..Good luck..
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5062 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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albert
Knows what it's all about
Member # 98
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posted September 30, 2007 05:37 AM
From what I understand the problem is finding a bullet that will hold up to the velocity. If you get a faster twist the 50 grain bergers might work? The nosler ballistic tip's may work as they are tougher than the other plastic tip bullets. Hopefully DAA will chime in.
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for what it's worth, eh!
Posts: 195 | From: Parkland, saskatchewan, canada | Registered: Feb 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted September 30, 2007 07:59 AM
I've got nothing but good things to say about the .22-250AI. It's one of the all time best cartridges out there, in my opinion. Basically does everything the Swift does, with better brass. I know Leonard has been using the .22-250AI on coyotes for a long time too.
The one I use for coyotes is a 12 twist, handles everything up to some of the 60 gr. bullets.
After going round and round, trying everything, I finally ended up back where I started, as far as bullets go - the good old Sierra 1365. Not as sleek as the Vmax or B-tip, but just dead nuts predictable as to how it acts once it hits a coyote.
I think the 55 B-tip would be a good one too, I think that's what Q uses in his Swift. They are the one bullet that didn't shoot very accurately in my gun though, so I never tried them on coyotes.
Anyway... Bottom line, my opinion, the .22-250AI and the Swift are "the" two best .22's for coyotes, and I'll take the .22-250AI just for the better brass behavior.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
Member # 19
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posted September 30, 2007 09:04 AM
DAA,(or anybody else)
What is the approximate barrel life of the 22/250 AI and what might be the barrel life of the 20/250 Ackley that Cal is wanting to build?
Thanks
Posts: 1209 | From: Lewiston, Idaho USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted September 30, 2007 09:53 AM
Oh Hell...
I totally misread Cal's original post. He said TWENTY/.250AI, not TWENTY-TWO/.250AI... Duh...
I've got a plain .20-250, not an AI. Have not shot enough coyotes with it yet to form any solid conclusions, but I think it's likely to end up being pure Hell-on-wheels. The big issue with the really big .20's like this, for use on coyotes, is finding the right bullet. I've written page upon page about my search for a bullet that will perform the way I want it to. Super short version of my story is that most, if not all of the commercially available .20 caliber bullets aren't designed or constructed to handle the velocity. The Berger 40, for instance, was an utter failure for me. I'm talking BIG TIME surface splash. To the point that it wasn't even killing coyotes cleanly. Perfectly placed 50 yard shots were resulting in gigantic entrance wounds, and spinning, staggering, still very much breathing coyotes. Not good... BUT! I "think" I have found my bullet. Again - have not shot enough coyotes with it yet to say absolutely. But, so far, so good. I had a bullet custom made to my spec's. It's a 38 gr., made on drawn down .224 J4 jackets, with about an .060 boat tail, a short one caliber bearing surface and a long sleek 9S ogive ending in the tightest meplat the maker figured he could put on it without sticking in his die. The BC comes in around .260. I'm pushing them about 4300 fps, with .5 MOA accuracy. Put that in your ballistics calculator and check out the trajectory. Unreal. But best of all, so far, it seems like this bullet is tough enough to give good penetration without surface splash. Every coyote I've shot so far with it has been DRT.
Lonny, I really just can't say about barrel life with something like this. I'm sure I'll get 500 rounds out of it. Maybe that's all. Maybe a lot more, I just don't know. But for how I use it, 500 rounds is a lot of years. Honestly, I'm planning to shoot some jack rabbits and chucks with it, just to make sure the barrel doesn't live longer than I do...
Cal, this is a subject near and dear to my heart. I gotta run right now, but will be happy to talk your ear off about it later. Actually, I've been writing a really long article about my .20-250 to put on my website. I'll send you the rough draft when I get it done, probably about mid-week.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted September 30, 2007 09:57 AM
Hell, I'm batting a thousand on reading comprehension today... Lonny you also asked about barrel life on the .22-250AI. Lots of variables there. But for a 12 or 14 twist, shooting normal hunting bullets, and being used for slow fire like coyotes, not prairie dogs or anything like that, you'll easily get at least 2000 rounds out of a .22-250AI and possibly a good bit more than that. Mine has about 1500 rounds on it now and is still going very strong (last time I checked zero it printed a five shot group under .400). And most of those 1500 have been shooting 'chucks so the barrel has gotten plenty hot plenty of times.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted September 30, 2007 11:40 AM
DAA,
I really look forward to your .20-250 article.Have you tried the Hornady 45 grain SP in your .20-250?That's the bullet I have been interested in using if I rebarrel to .20-250.If I could get that bullet(45 grain SP with a .245 B.C)running around 4000-4100 fps and have it shoot 1/2 inch groups I think I would have a great coyote combo.Thanks for the info....
Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted September 30, 2007 01:30 PM
Chad, I've only messed with the 45 Hornady in my .20-250 just a little bit. The load I tried is right there where you are wanting to be though - about 4050 fps, 1/2 MOA.
I've only shot two coyotes with it. Both facing me at under 100 yards. Both of them were pole axed, I think their souls were half way to heaven before their bodies hit the ground. Niether shot had an exit (typical of the facing shot). Both had larger than caliber entrance holes, about 1.5" or so, but not anything like what I'd call "surface splash".
That bullet is kind of my "Plan B". The low BC and lower velocity resulting from the heavier weight (45 gr.), means the trajectory isn't quite as flat as my .17 Predator. One of my primary goals for this project was extreme flatness of trajectory - even flatter than my .17P. So I'm wanting to use a lighter bullet, with higher BC, at higher velocity. The rub, of course, is coming up with a bullet like that which also kills coyotes cleanly. I'm not too concerned with "fur friendly" on this deal. I'll take it if I can get it, but I don't want to ask for too much all at once ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) . I HAVE to have clean kills with good bullet placement though. No compromises on that.
So, anyway... I don't have enough experience with the 45 Hornady to say too much for sure one way or another. But from what little I have seen, it looks to me like it ought to perform exactly as you have outlined.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted September 30, 2007 05:19 PM
Dave,
Thanks for the info.Trajectory is what I am looking for too.The 45's have done very well on coyotes out of my .204 ruger,but at 3650 fps it does lack the ballistics I want.The coyotes I have shot have all been DRT,with VERY little if any pelt damage.MY Main reason I have even considered going with the .20-250 is I have a .22-250 that's pretty much shot out and needs a new barrel,and I have really come to love the .20 caliber.I do wish one of the Major Manufacters would come up with a better light weight bullet as you have(38 grain boattail with a high B.C (.260))Again thanks for the info.
Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Jack Roberts
Knows what it's all about
Member # 13
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posted September 30, 2007 08:28 PM
I have been shooting a fast twist 22-250AI for a while and after 350 rounds the barrel does not look good. I figure maybe 600 before bullet blowups.
I would guess half that for a 20-250AI. A slow twist might go for 600 in the 20-250AI. If just shooting coyotes 600 is a fine barrel life and will last for years. But don't even think about shooting colony varmints with any of these overbore chambers.
But barrel life is very subjective. It really depends on how much you will put up with. Some people shoot a barrel until accuracy falls off. I never go that far. When I start getting blow ups or it takes 20 rounds to settle down after cleaning, new barrel time.
Jack
Posts: 499 | From: Elko NV formerly MD | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted September 30, 2007 08:50 PM
With the hot chamberings I have had experience with, I think this question of accuracy is incremental. Yes, I have talked to a few guys that have shot out a barrel on such as 22-250AI and 6/284s, stuff like that, and the number of useful rounds varies quite a bit.
My personal philosophy is to select a cartridge that is not too radical, and then, not push the performance to extreme, and I think case life is a good indication of that. If you have split necks and blown or flattened primers, chances are, the barrel won't last too long.
But, as Jack and DAA have said, there is a limit. I'm still using the 22-250 Ackley that Dave mentioned, something less than a thousand rounds and accuracy is acceptable. I think it is possibe the fast twist that Jack has is a contributor to his degraded performance; as mine is 1 turn in 14", but things like powder and bullet selection, and pressure and freebore and perhaps barrel manufacturer, cut rifling, button and the number and shape of the grooves plays a part? But, I'm sure he knows where he is at, I think he owns a borescope?
No free lunch. You want that frozen rope trajectory, you better do your homework and expect a washed out barrel sooner or later.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted November 17, 2007 12:11 PM
I finally got that .20-250 article I mentioned earlier posted to my website. It's too long. And heavy on my demented gun nut ramblings. But, it's done (for now).
It's at:
http://www.rmvh.com/Articles.htm
You'll probably want to skip most of it, and just read the bullet performance section. That's where the real meat of the project is.
Readers Digest version -- "almost there". Current bullets are working "pretty good", but not quite what I'm after. Very optimistic that new bullets will be available soon that will address all the current shortcomings.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted November 17, 2007 03:23 PM
I'll be reading it all. Did you get to use that 20 on Varmint Safari IV ?
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted November 19, 2007 06:25 AM
Rich, the Big Twenty only got used for just a few scenes in VS4.
Had it out yesterday though, filming for the next one, got some good kills on film with it. I need to talk to Gary some more about his experience with the 38 gr. Unumssig bullets. So far, they are just working great for me. All three coyotes yesterday with it, bang-flop, no splash, no exit, text book perfect. Starting to wonder if his batch of bullets is somehow different than mine, or if there is some other subtle difference(s) that might explain why he's seeing surface splash with them and I'm just not.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted November 19, 2007 09:26 AM
Damn, Dave! I have only read the first two chapters, thus far, but you have me hanging on the edge of my seat!
I couldn't agree more with your logic and application.
Now, back to the report. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted November 19, 2007 02:04 PM
Okay, finished. Great read. I'd like to see some expense data, seating dies seem a bit casual for a gearhead like Dave? But, fortunately, very little runout?
Is the Gary in CA, IBEW Gary in Palm Springs? I wish I had known that before, he was at the HM campout. I could have picked his brain a bit.
I am completely on board with the concept, 300 to just shy of 500 or so. There are so many western opportunities at that distance.
Again, great article. Thanks.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted November 19, 2007 04:31 PM
Thanks Leonard, I really do appreciate the nice review.
quote:
I'd like to see some expense data
I can't go there!
Seriously though, I mean, yeah, I "know" how much this stuff costs. But, it's been a long standing, iron clad personal policy, that I NEVER add it all up. Not even in my head. For that reason, I honestly could not say just exactly how much any of my rifles have cost. I plan on keeping it that way .
The .22 caliber seating dies don't seem to be giving very much at all, if anything in concentricity. I did the same thing with my .20BR, used my existing Forster .22BR seater. Both rounds, .20BR and .20-250, runout is under .003, with most being well under - closer to .001.
And "yup", that Gary.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted November 19, 2007 05:04 PM
I'm going to read it first chance I get Dave, but have been a little busy with other things. Any twist reccomendations etc, for the 35 to 45 grain range?
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
Posts: 1034 | From: out yonder | Registered: Apr 2007
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted November 19, 2007 05:15 PM
Cal, for 35's to 45's, I'd do a 12 twist (which is what I have).
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted November 20, 2007 09:29 AM
Dave, are you using a four groove barrel? Angled cuts; I forget what that's called? How is cleaning intervals shaking out? I like your scope choice, too. Except for the length, (maybe) I like everything about my 4.5X14X44. Okay, so you don't want to talk cost....how about the length of time, start to finish? And, I didn't know McMillon would inlet a stock without having your barreled action in their shop. Some people have been saying 5/6 months, on the stock alone?
That's why I have become a little indifferent about these custom jobs. They take so long, I am anxious all the time; or I forget why I wanted it and then realized I didn't need it very bad, anyway? Sometimes, patience is not my strong suit.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
Member # 19
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posted November 20, 2007 12:43 PM
Very indepth and interesting article Dave. Even though I'm not in the 20/250 game, I'll be interested in hearing what you end up using for bullets in your "coyote death ray". Good luck and continued success with the project.
Leonard, I ordered a couple McMillan "swirly" Rem Classics the past couple years and it took 3-3.5 months, but I have heard of guys waiting four months. Not to sound like a advertisement, but that is what I like about the McMillan. They can customize your stock in so many different ways when you order. Colors, patterns, inletting for actions, barrel, and barrel shank of your choice, recoil pad, sling studs, length of pull, blah, blah, blah, etc.. Gawd, the list is almost endless and somewhat mind boggling until you study what they offer and figure out what you want.
I guess I'm kinda going through that stage in life where its fun to choose exactly what I want and is worth the wait. Your older, much wiser, have been down that road before, and have seen the light. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Don't tell my wife, but she thinks when I order a stock I'm getting the whole rifle for that price. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) It works both ways though, when she orders something that I think is frivolous I don't even bat an eye and just roll with it.
You guys have a good Thanksgiving!
Posts: 1209 | From: Lewiston, Idaho USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted November 20, 2007 01:21 PM
Leonard, my barrel is a 3 groove, with standard land and groove configuation. Not one of the radiused or "ratchet" designs. And really, the only reason it is a 3 groove, is because I wanted to use a Lilja barrel and Dan only makes 3 grooves in .20 caliber.
Cleaning hasn't been anything unusual. I don't shoot it that much, so it hasn't ever really had too many rounds in between cleanings. Maybe 30 or 40 rounds one of the days I was working up initial load data. Doesn't copper foul much, cleans up nice and easy. With anything that has an expansion ratio as low as this thing does though, I don't think it is a good idea to go too many rounds without thorough cleaning. Too easy to get hard carbon build up just ahead of the throat. Royal PITA to get rid of once you let it happen.
Kind of hard to even say how long this one took. I did the "one piece at a time" thing. Had already had the action for most of a year, before even starting to order any of the other parts. And I didn't order the rest all at once. Spread it out over most of a year. The McMillan took about 4 months, I think, and the barrels took about that long too. On both items though, they were done a little bit earlier than promised. I can understand totally what you mean about the long wait, and losing the gusto by the time it happens. But I'm more like Lonny, I know EXACTLY what I want, don't want to have even one tiny detail different than EXACTLY that, and am willing to wait as long as I have to. The 'smithing on it took the longest. About nine months for that. But again, that was actually a little bit sooner than promised. Long waits really suck. But being told one thing, and then not having it happen as promised, sucks even worse. I've found the long waits far more tolerable, when the promised dates aren't missed.
Dunno, really hard to put a time line on it, the way I went about it. I guess if I had ordered all the pieces and called Greg to get in line all at the same time, it would have taken 9 months. But the way I did it, was over two years.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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sparkyibewlocal440
Knows what it's all about
Member # 397
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posted November 23, 2007 10:47 PM
Dave,
Maybe we do have different bullets from Mr.Unmussig??
I gave up on them,11 out of 13 Coyotes resulted in splashs....I've used 40 grain Ballistic tips for the last 19 killed ,including 4 Bobcats and the results have been excellent!Only one minor splash on a shoulder and it was a bang flop,no staggering around.All the other kills,either behind the shoulder or frontal chest hits,produced tiny entrance holes and small quarter size exits,quick clean kills,any where from 60 to 370 yards.Did really good on the thin skinned cats too,very nice.
Had to drop the charge down to 37.0 grains using the 40's,it chrono's at 4125fps now,instead of 4300.Primers seat tight using this charge,no ejector marks.
Shot it again at paper at 350 yards to compare trajectory's with the 38's...Not as good,but not bad.
Also worth mentioning,the Ballistic tips seat allot deeper,more room to grow.
[ November 24, 2007, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: sparkyibewlocal440 ]
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