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Author
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Topic: My gun died :(
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted October 27, 2007 07:50 PM
Well, at least, I hope not. How frustrating is this?...
I'm out hunting the other day with my (supposedly) sighted in rifle and nothing is happening. SO, before heading home, I pull over and set a few cans up at 100 yards and plink a bit. A very little bit, because the impacts are hitting everywhere BUT the cans. What?!?
I go home, get my bench gear and head out. Set up a hundred yard target and am proud to announce groups that were, at best, 16-20 inches. Huh?!? That's just not right.
I go home, do some cleaning, checking connections, etc., and go out with several different types of ammo. The stuff I'm shooting this year is still all over the board. My partner brings his rifle, which we know is dead on, and it groups the current ammo pretty well (1-inch group). I shoot some of the Gamekings that have worked so well in the past and they're bad, but not as bad as the VMaxes. Maybe a 12 inch group. Pissed, I head for home.
That night, it's off to the gunsmith. He check the rifle over and declares it huntworthy after checking the mounting lug screws, the scope mounts, the crown, the free float, the bedding/ pillars. He doesn't have a throat gauge for .22-250, but say that since it's only had about 400 rounds through it, he can't imagine the throat is damaged. He examines the targets and declares that I have a copper fouling issue. Instructs me to go home and clean, clean, clean.
For three nights, I cleaned that bore with solvents and bore scrubbers, until, as he instructed, I could go out in the morning, run a wet patch through it and not get green, followed by clean patches.
Last night, I got to the end of that plan. And, I headed out today to shoot some tight, clean barreled groups. NOT!!!
At 50 yards, the groups were, maybe, 2.5 inches. At 75 yards, they went from 4-8 inches.
At 100 yards, the were all over the board, grouping at maybe 16 inches, and there was no predicting where the next shot would hit. One hit would be at 7 o'clock, two inches off the inner circle. The next might be eight inches east of dead on, while the next would be six inches high and four inches wide at 10 o'clock.
I brought it home and stripped the highly touted Burris scope off it and replaced it with the lesser Simmons that was on it before, back when it could group <1-inch, but didn't have as clear a picture. Rather than hunting tomorrow, I'll be on a bench somewhere trying to determine if the gun simply went to crap sitting oiled in the gun safe for the past several months, or if the scope, which never has been as accurate as I expected, just finally crapped out. If it's the gun, I have my eye on a Savage Predator. If it's the scope, Burris can have it back. I've got a travel hunt planned for two weeks from tomorrow, and right now, 70% of my gear is not functional, for one reason or another.
I'm just venting... ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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JD
HONORARY OKIE .... and Tim's at fault!
Member # 768
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posted October 27, 2007 08:48 PM
Sounds like a scope, at least I hope so for your sake, although I`d go ahead & buy that predator anyhow, you can never have to many guns. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Hope you get it solved in a timely manner.
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Jason
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What do Obama & TA17Rem have in common........both are clueless asshats!!!
Posts: 1456 | From: NE. | Registered: Dec 2005
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted October 27, 2007 09:55 PM
Jason,
You always seem to come through with sound advice. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I can't imagine a rifle puking that bad that fast. I would have to bet on the scope being trashed.
I hear those Savages are real accurite. hehehe!
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futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
Posts: 1465 | From: flyover country | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
Member # 19
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posted October 27, 2007 10:07 PM
Another vote for a bad scope.
Posts: 1209 | From: Lewiston, Idaho USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 27, 2007 11:09 PM
I read the first three paragraphs and started the fourth, having already formed an opinion, when I (couldn't help myself) glanced down and read the first line of JD's reply. That is the first thing to look at and I'm surprised your gunsmith didn't at least mention it? Also, your friend comes over, and you still didn't do what was indicated; you test your ammo in his gun instead of using his scope on YOUR gun?
Usually, whethere it's a barrel or bedding, these things go south incrementally, not by a half a yard. What you should be wondering about is if it fell over in the closet, or something similiar? My buddy had his rifle fall and land on the scope. There didn't seem to be any damage, and later on that night, I was shooting at a gray fox standing on a big rock, and missed him by ten feet. Well, we put it away and took a more careful look at it in the morning and the objective bell was noticeably angled a little bit toward the barrel. Leupold fixed it right away, but since then I have seen some ads extolling the virtues of one piece scope bodies...and I can see value in that.
Anyway, you should give it some thought. What happened, and when. But there was probably an event that caused the problem. I'd almost bet money that it's not your barrel, although 400 hot rounds can significantly errode accuracy and a new batch of very poor quality bullets can cause bad groups. But, these bullets were acceptable, last year, so that's not the reason.
I vote with everybody else, the scope got whacked.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted October 28, 2007 07:26 AM
Sounds like you put a fifty dollar scope, on a thousand dollar rifle. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 28, 2007 08:34 AM
That, too. It's better to stay away from that low end stuff, go with a Simmons or a Tasco. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228
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posted October 28, 2007 08:45 AM
Scope or mount.
Ask your wife if she has had any recent cleaning accidents. Being as you discovered it before a shot on game please keep in mind that her value far outweighs the minor inconvenience of a damaged scope. keeping in mind that you DID find it prior to a serious shot.
I have a 243 that has been shot a lot years ago, not so much in recent times. Given bullets of similar design I gain about 5 grains of bullet weight on the lower end of what it will shoot accurately each year. Said another way - 2 years ago it shot 65's OK, now it needs a 75. Kind of hate that, I kept the rifle around as a all-around back-up because it shot 65 V-Maxes and 95 Partitions to nearly the same point of impact at reasonable hunting ranges.
65 grain anythings shoot about 3 or 4 inches at 100 yards now. It has been a gradual decay over 4 or 5 years, though a fairly small round count in that time. Still shoots 85 gr GK's, 95 Partitions and 100 gr Sierras well.
I suspect the gun in a case like this, though I have honestly never shot out the barrel of a rifle in my life. How does this compare to the experiences of you barrel burners?
That said, I wonder what the life a 223 barrel is? I have one and owned another that had thousands (swag - 3k +/-) of rounds through them with no apparent effect.
Posts: 646 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 28, 2007 09:04 AM
I talked to an Army buddy, at one of our reunions, a couple years ago. He told me that it was his ambition to wear out a barrel. I raised my eyebrows a bit, and delved a little deeper. He makes a trip out west every year for prairie dogs. Yeah, so far I was with him. Then he said he uses his 30'06. and, I was thinking.....how would he know?
But, yes, some cartridges and some barrels seem to last forever, and some don't. This hotrock stuff is hard on the best barrel steel, but some of it is self destruction, plain and simple. Just because you can shoot your father's trusty '06 and it never loses zero and is still as accurate as the day he bought it, that doesn't mean you can shoot a hot barrel with an overbore chambering and get away with it indefinitely. We have several gun guru's here that would probably back me on that issue?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228
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posted October 28, 2007 09:30 AM
Leonard, I'm not challenging or questioning the concept of shooting out a barrel. That would be kind of stupid.
I was simply asking if the symptoms of my 243's degradation match the experiences of the people who shoot the hot and hard on barrel calibers and have witnessed the death of a barrel due to round count/rate of fire.
Colony varmints are a long trip for me so my rifles see very few rounds and the ones that they do see are shot at a very slow pace. The only rifles that I've shot high volumes through have been the 223's and to a lessor extent the 243.
My 22-250, 25-06, 270, 308, 7mmm and whatever else I'm forgetting will last a long long time at the pace I shoot.
Posts: 646 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 28, 2007 10:03 AM
I wasn't disputing anything you said, Joe. Just general comments, that come to me in messages from deep space. Live long and prosper. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228
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posted October 28, 2007 03:01 PM
LB, is this a 60's sort of thing?
I'm behind the times on that. I was just learning how to shoot a rabbit, a squirrel, or set a trap then. That split hand salute thing was way ahead of me.
Posts: 646 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 28, 2007 03:09 PM
I just found the hat!
(punch line of my favorite truck driver joke)
I don't know a damned thing about trekies or trekin' besides some guy named Leonard was in it. But, thanks for making me feel old.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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The Bandit
Knows what it's all about
Member # 960
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posted October 28, 2007 03:13 PM
quote:
I've got a travel hunt planned for two weeks from tomorrow
Lance,
If you need to borrow my Rem 22-250 to make your trip you are more than welcome. I probably wont be using it much this year since I got one of them darn black guns. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Minaska Outdoors, Inc.
Posts: 49 | From: Lincoln Nebraska | Registered: Sep 2006
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The Bandit
Knows what it's all about
Member # 960
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posted October 28, 2007 03:13 PM
Oops!hit the button twice
Todd
[ October 28, 2007, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: The Bandit ]
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Minaska Outdoors, Inc.
Posts: 49 | From: Lincoln Nebraska | Registered: Sep 2006
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted October 28, 2007 04:25 PM
Well, I think my guns have all been sabotaged. I went calling this a.m., took my little .223 H&R for shits and giggles, and actually missed a coyote at 30 yards. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
The second shot dissociated his right front leg from his left everything else, which led to a general mess. After three more missed shots, all to his left, I aimed to his right, with an inch or more of God and clear morning air between him and the vertical crosshair, and put one right through the braincase. Y'ain't never seen a guy loading a single shot so fast as I was. LOL
Took the Howa out with the Simmons and it was actually worse. After several attempts, I threw up my hands and took it home, put the action in the factory stock and headed for the gun store. I don't know even now where it went to hell, but it sure did. Maybe something went to crap with the custom stock. The bedding looked good. No cracks or anything like that. Everything was intact. The gun store smith scoped the barrel and didn't say anything about any problems that he saw. Of course, I didn't go asking.
After looking at that Predator and comparing it side by side with several other Savage rifles, it's only real differences are the camo, the big knob, the barrel twist and a heavy barrel - can get better, don't need, don't load my own and have gotten along fine so far with a 1:12, and don't really want. The stock is the same lightweight plastic jobby and I knew I'd end up putting it on a B&C anyway. I like the lighter weight of these guns than the Howa and know it'll gain a pound or two in accessories anyway.
I ended up getting the Model 11 Savage in .22-250. Brought it home, switched out the Simmons that came on it for the Burris and, in six shots, had an inch group at 100, and hit just beneath (< 2 inches) a tennis ball sized rock at about 220 yards. 250 is a long haul for me, so I can live with that.
Oh, I re-zero'd that H&R today, too. It's grouping a tight inch at 100 as well. Ready to go hunting!
Thanks, Todd. But I have bad luck with rifles, for some reason.
[ October 28, 2007, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted October 28, 2007 05:30 PM
Did it ever keyhole or blow up bullets?
Some bullets don't like much of jump to the lands. I can't imagine only 400 rounds pushing it out much. But if the throat was cut long to start with, it may not have took much more to make it too much of a jump.
This is a good excuse for you to take up reloading, it would help you to find and solve more problems with out having to sell a rifle.
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted October 28, 2007 06:21 PM
OK smart alecs, now you all have to take back your nasty words about Burris, unless it was a fullfield II. They are kind of the bottom end of the barrel, but still better that a low end Leupold! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
I have two Leupolds to get boxed up and sent in. A 4.5 to 14X Vari XIII of mine that wont focus and a straight 6x tapered crosshairs and a dot that won't hold zero that a buddy gave to me the other day. He was going to pitch it and I figured I could send it in and get something back to put on a 22 for the kids or something.
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
Posts: 1034 | From: out yonder | Registered: Apr 2007
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted October 28, 2007 06:32 PM
Sounds like CDog needs something a little more dependable. A Mini-14 perhaps.......
(Lord, I apologize for that and please be with the starving pygmie coyotes in Texas.)
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7582 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted October 28, 2007 06:58 PM
Kokopelli...-
I had a mini once. Loved it to play with, but, well, you know.
Cal,
It is a FFII. But, that scope is fine. I thought it was the culprit, but I was wrong. Put it on the new Savage and I'm grouping < an inch with it easily. < 2 inches at 200 yards. I edited the above post to clarify that it was the Burris that I put on. I mistakenly put Bushnell - don't even own one. Grouped quite well on this gun today.
I seriously don't know where that other gun went to hell. Maybe it was the stock. The combination of the stock and action. Who knows? But, through switching out scopes, different loads of ammo, shooting my ammo through another rifle that we know is a tack driver and seeing a very consistent POI, all of our eliminations kept coming back to the rifle itself. With all that testing and cussing we did, we burned up over a 150 rounds this weekend just dinking with that gun. And Tim, I may have to just take up loading my own because I can't find any ammo to buy to replace what we shot up. LOL I have a buddy an hour away that says he can load what I want in 55-grn Sierra Gamekings for a small fraction of what I'm spending now. All I have to do is send him the brass, and God knows I'm ass deep in brass after this weekend. LOL
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 29, 2007 12:11 AM
Lance, whatever is wrong with your rifle, I'm just too damned obstinate to believe there is that much wrong with the barrell.
You could probably shoot 22-250 ammo in a 250 Savage and group inside 16-20 inches at a hundred yards?
Something ain't right? LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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6mm284
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1129
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posted October 29, 2007 03:16 AM
sounds to me like a scope or scope mounting that is not stress free. I had a similar experience years ago with an expensive scope that was mounted into adjustable bases .It can be very diffuclt to be sure any adjustable base does not put stress in the tube of the scope when tightening or aligning for windage.I hunted for several years before a good jar relieved the stress and sent the scope completetly off the paper. Scope alignment bars and lapping rings are now normal for me and I avoid the use of any mounting system that has adjustment when I am using an internally adjustable scope. There is no simple way to insure the centerline of both the front and rear rings are the same when one of them has movment.If you hold the rifle in a gun vise ,put a dial indicator on the tube and slowly release the rings you can see how much stress there is on the tube.
Posts: 198 | From: N46 06 E91 11 | Registered: Feb 2007
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted October 29, 2007 04:18 AM
I agree with you Leonard, as I cannot think for the life of me, what could have gone haywire with that barrel and gun, except for an issue between the marriage of the rifle and scope.
In any event, it isn't my rifle anymore, and it isn't my problem. I needed a reason to get a new gun.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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