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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on January 31, 2008, 01:43 PM:
Some one asked awhile back if anyone has used Noslers custom brass. I had some at the time but was unable to post any comments on it due to not testing it at the time, was still waiting on my Pred.
I'm still doing a little load developement yet on the 17 Pred. and have one more session at the range then i'll be done..
The brass is very uniform in weight and they have the flash hole cleaned up on them before hand. I lost five cases dureing fireforming due to human error. The cases i have used for testing loads have been loaded atleast 5-6 times and i had a few with exspanded primer pockets due to high pressure loads, but you can have that happen with any brass. At the moument i give the Nosler brass a thumbs up and will continue to use it in the pred. and may try some in my 22-250 ackley.
Powders: I use mostly Vihtavuori powder in all my rifles except a few. Its a good clean powder and gives good accuracy in my rifles and by useing the 500 series i can get a little more vel. by useing this powder.
I also tried a new powder this year called Ramshot. I'm useing the Ramshot big game in my 17 pred. and it looks very promiseing. Biggame is a very fine ball powder and goes through the funnel very well, it gives me a very low var. from shot to shot. My barrel seems to clean-up very easey with this powder. I like it so i well keep on useing it and may try it in other cartridges as well..
Primers: I tested about a half doz. different primers in my Pred. some can change the vel. by as much as 100 FPS. useing same powder charge.
With the Vihtavuori powder i found that the Rem. 7 1/2 gave the best group with low deviations and Fed. 205-M gave best groups with Ramshot powder. By finding the right primer combonation you can aliminate alot of those flyers, which in turn will shrink youre groups or make more rounded.. Well thats my .02 worth.. T.A.
Posted by albert (Member # 98) on January 31, 2008, 07:31 PM:
I will add that the nosler brass is heavier than the winchester brass that I have compared it to. You will most likely have to reduce your charges when using this brass.
Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on February 01, 2008, 07:35 AM:
Tim,
How much has the Nosler brass tighted up your groups, compared to say factory Winchester or Remington brass? I'm interested in 100-200 yard groups. I've never tried the stuff due to it's cost, myself.
[ February 01, 2008, 07:36 AM: Message edited by: DanS ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 01, 2008, 11:22 AM:
See, that's an interesting point. I have never used Nosler brass, don't know why(?) but there should be some motivation. Case life? Accuracy, by virtue of uniformity of capacity? Why be willing to pay twice as much, in some cases? With any cartridge that requires fireforming, it makes sense to invest, especially if you are unwilling to do the sorting and processing required. Preping 200 rounds the way I do it requires a lot of manual labor and time.
So, buying that premium brass for a garden variety 223 used on predators, in my opinion, is a waste of resources.
I have never used Nosler, but have used Norma and Lapua and Federal and RP and Winchester and PMC and various military.
At one time, the only place you could get 220 brass was Winchester and Norma. I have used Norma brass extensively in 220 and 270. I don't understand what all the raves are about, but that's immaterial. Some people develop a marked preference for certain brands, and maybe it suits their application, or it's just feel good?
So, I may be a bit biased, but I have always felt that Nosler products were over priced. A good product, but you don't buy a Bentley to get into your "core" areas, do you?
I don't know who makes Hornady brass but it looks premium, to me? Sometimes, the choices are dictated by who makes brass for your particular rifle.
But, this interest in brass is a little like primers. I use, and have been for years, Federal primers in almost everything. The quest for accuracy seldom requires experimenting with every primer under the sun. Some burn slightly hotter than another. Deal with it, adjust the powder charge, use a different powder, but they all work, you just have to reshuffle the components a little bit.
With brass, I separate my brass based on a couple things, one of which is weight, to determine the internal volume. From that time forward, all cases are divided into three groups, 25% heavier, 25% lightest, and 50% in the middle of the range. On paper, same charge, I find no difference in practical accuracy, as long as I use the light cases, or the midrange cases or the heavy cases. I just don't mix them, different boxes, and I scratch a mark on the headstamp which stays there for the life of the case. End of story, if uniformity is the concern. If you have trouble with blown primers or split necks, you have a different problem and don't know when to back off your load. Maybe a sloppy chamber, who knows, but still easily delt with.
I guess what I am trying to say is that brass is an overrated component in many cases.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on February 02, 2008, 11:47 AM:
I have nevered blamed missing a shot at a coyote on not having weighed my cases.I know I am not a good enough shot for that.
Have seen guys get all excited about weighing cases that were not the same length,not uniformly cleaned,not deburred in the flash hole or not had the primer pocket prepped the same.Sorting by weight has its application and I have done it often, but the difference in weights may not be a difference in internal volume unless all the other variables have been removed.
I believe some brass is better than others, not only from one manufacturer to another , but from lot to lot of the same manufacturer.
Some days and times of day I just shoot better than others. If I were "testing" (very loose,overused term) brass or anything else at those times I might conclude that one shoots better than another when actually the change was caused by coincidence.Coincidence can lead to false conclusions that can keep one from discovering the facts. To set up a real shooting test and draw conclusions that are actually statistically significant is not very easily done without lots of shooting and lots of time.
Excuse me, I must get back to weighing cases!!
[ February 02, 2008, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: 6mm284 ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 02, 2008, 02:05 PM:
I'm guilty of weighing and sorting brass and doing all the little tricks to make my loads more uniform and constant. Most my shots are way past a 100 yds. and i want my rifle as perfect as i can get it. If i'm going to miss a coyote i want it due to poor set-up or just a badd shot rather than buy a average load. A bad set-up or shot can be fixed in the field by useing shooting sticks and selecting a better calling set-up and some practice shooting. In other words if you are going to spend the time looking for coyotes and calling them and picking a good stand should'nt the same be spent on makeing everything else as perfect as you can get it so when that coyote does come in you can finish what you started by getting the coyote..T.A.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 02, 2008, 03:05 PM:
Yeah, I'm guilty of it too, Tim. However, some of these things come full circle. When I hunt over in Arizona, pinpoint accuracy is less important in the brush than it is in the wide open spaces of Nevada, where an average shot is over 250 yards. I know guys that want to hunt coyotes with benchrest rifles and tight necked chambers. I wonder how many coyotes are actually saved by quarter minute rifles? It's a feel good item, in many cases. I will stand by my opinion that the least important component is the brass you are using, at least in a hunting application rather than paper.
But, do I weigh my cases, do I weigh my charge, spin my loaded ammo, etc. in spite of all evidence that it's not of supreme importance? Yes, I do.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on February 03, 2008, 08:24 PM:
That's the funny part about all this reloading stuff, for me. I don't go to the furthest extremes. For hunting rifles, I pretty much quit weighing brass, I don't own a concentricity guage, but I do hand weigh each load instead of throwing them. I segregate my brass by manufacturer, clean primer pockets and deburr. It's pretty easy to get sub moa groups this way for me. If I can get the internet special (half inch groups, all day long, etc...) I am really happy.
I did this once before but I think I'll do it again for fun I'll load a mix of Win, Rem, IMI, WCC, LC, etc.. brass with thrown charges of a ball powder, with factory seconds from Sierra, and different primers. I'll use a factory 223 rifle. Seems to me they grouped well enough before. Go figuire.
I do try to keep all my shots at 100 yards or less. Occationally I'll stretch out a 200-300 yarder. Those are quite rare for me. This may not work for Tim or Leonard's applications where long range factors more heavily.
[ February 03, 2008, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: DanS ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 03, 2008, 09:22 PM:
Yes Dan if most of youre shots are going to be 200 yds or less then you can use anything you want for loading components. If you got time for a little testing then try shooting mixed brass and primers and you will see they will not group in the same spot and the groups maybe a little larger than youre normal load you use.. have fun..been there and done it..T.A.
Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on February 04, 2008, 05:24 AM:
Most of the compulsive obsessive operations I do in reloading are because I have the time and enjoy doing it. It's practical benefit of trying to squeeze out the last half to quarter moa of accuracy is kind of lost when many scopes(most)have finest adjustment of quarter to half moa.
Reloading is just a good way to get the last bit of enjoyment and satisfaction out of the pastime we all love.
More benefit can probably be gained by more practice. My practice range is set at 440 yds to a steel coyote. It is the only range I usually practice at and tend to shoot quite a few coyotes close to that range if a good,rested,calculated shot is present.
[ February 04, 2008, 05:31 AM: Message edited by: 6mm284 ]
Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on February 04, 2008, 07:10 AM:
Loading for a 223 that I used a large percentage of the time for years kind of cured me of agonizing over things too much. Put a primer in one end, a bullet in the other, and a thrown powder charge in between and "it would do its' part". If the primer and bullet fit the hole you were good to go.
The only thing seriously weight critical was the powder charge, and that was a safety thing, not an accuracy issue.
Oh, and no bullets over 62 grains.
At one time I had thousands of rounds of brass sorted by commercial brand and/or military loader and year, etc...
Today, though the stuff is still loosely sorted by number of firings, I just throw it in a big old box when it is empty and grab out a handful if I feel like loading something.
The thing spoiled me. I don't tinker around with other calibers as much - I suspect as a direct result of having been spoiled.
Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on February 04, 2008, 03:30 PM:
I don't weigh brass either and I use winchester brass in my 25-06, I have killed stuff with it at 450+ and it shoots well.
I think having the same powder charge as real important and scale each charge as I'm not reloading a ton and have the time on occasion to load up 50-100 rounds at a whack. I also use a lee trim gauge so they are all close to the same trimmed length and clean primer pockets but that is about it. I also think neck sizing adds a little to the accuracy as once the case is fire formed to the chamber I can see that helping and not hurting in most cases? How much does it add hard to tell.
I also think using a good quailty bullet is another gain, fact is alot of the high end ammo can shoot as well as alot of hand loaded ammo, when your trying to get .1-.2" better I wonder at times why I reload? It is fun knowing you made the load that did the job, there still is some savings and you can pick your FPS and bullet combo's better than much of the high end factory ammo.
I look at the nosler brass and think if I could get 3-4 more loadings out of it it might be worth it, but they don't make it in 25-06 and I'm going to put together a .243 remington sps varmint and I'm thinking of getting some from a friend and seeing really what accuracy differance it will have against the tried and true winchester brass.
I know some that buy laupua brass and norma and that is really out of my price range to spend on brass and what trully is the gain?
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on February 04, 2008, 05:29 PM:
If you get the Lapua for your .243, you WILL get 3-4 more loadings out of them. At least. If you run your loads hot, you might get 10 loadings out of the Lapua where you would be chunking the Win. after only 1-2 loadings.
Not all Lapua brass is all that great. But the .243 is really nice - only half a notch below their BR and PPC cases. Primer pockets hang much tougher than Win. .243 cases.
I've been using the Nosler .22-250 in my .20-250. It's okay. Seems to me about like sorted Win. stuff. Not on the same level as the better Lapua stuff as mentioned above though.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 04, 2008, 05:58 PM:
Great, Dave, I was hoping you would have something to say on this issue.
Now, take a look at that other topic. How about eight bucks per bullet?
Good hunting. LB
edit: PS the only Lapua I use is 300Win and 243Win. I agree, very decent brass.
[ February 04, 2008, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 04, 2008, 07:15 PM:
Dan S. quote:
Tim,
How much has the Nosler brass tighted up your groups, compared to say factory Winchester or Remington brass?
Dan this is the first time i tried useing the Nosler brass in the pred. and i have not tried any other brand . So i can't say if its any better than the others, i just know its uniform from the start and i'm getting some great groups with it so why change. As to date now i'm up to 8 loadings on the test brass and so far so good... T.A.
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