This is topic If you could have only one coyote rifle.. in forum Firearms forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.


To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://www.huntmastersbbs.com/cgi-bin/cgi-ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000332

---

Posted by skoal (Member # 1492) on May 12, 2008, 03:13 PM:
 
What would it be?
 

---

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 12, 2008, 04:20 PM:
 
Wanna get "Banned from the Forum" on the darkside, after being vilified? Just remember, there is only 1 possibility, and it starts with a 1. This is out of order, but have you ever seen a coyote blown to hell with God's caliber?

Okay, anyway. (inside joke)

The correct answer would be a 22-250 but just for laughs, let's view some replies, shall we?

Come on, don't be scared!

Good hunting. LB
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 12, 2008, 05:16 PM:
 
I ain't scared of nothing.. !7 Pred. all the way baby...
 

---

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 12, 2008, 06:53 PM:
 
(1) 12 gauge pump.

(2) .223 Mini-14

(3) Savage .223/12ga O/U.
 

---

Posted by mifox (Member # 721) on May 12, 2008, 07:31 PM:
 
.222, and yes I'm old.
 

---

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 12, 2008, 07:47 PM:
 
koko, the man said to PICK ONE! But, I got to admit, your number 2 is (edit: interesting)

Good hunting. LB

[ May 12, 2008, 08:01 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 12, 2008, 08:01 PM:
 
Looks like the man prefers shotguns over a rifle..LOL
 

---

Posted by honestjohn (Member # 2651) on May 12, 2008, 08:41 PM:
 
I must be getting old also,the .222 is what I use the most.I think it is because I miss less frequent with it.LOL
 

---

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 12, 2008, 08:43 PM:
 
Welcome to The New Huntmasters, honestjohn. Glad to have you on board.

Good hunting. LB
 

---

Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on May 12, 2008, 08:57 PM:
 
I have shot a few with the 220 and it works well.

Good hunting.

Q,
 

---

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 12, 2008, 08:59 PM:
 
Leo, this concept of 'pick just one gun'..........I don't understand it. Those are the ones that I keep handy in the truck, to pick from stand to stand.
 

---

Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on May 13, 2008, 05:31 AM:
 
It would be a .24 caliber for me. Either a .243 or a 6mm. I already have one of each and could survive fine with either. It would be a bolt gun, both of mine are Sakos. Minimum 24 inch barrel.

I will admit I sure like my AR in .204 but the question was one rifle so I'll stick with the old solid all conditions standby.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on May 13, 2008, 05:53 AM:
 
I like the AR's, but if I could only have one coyote rifle it would be my old 22-250 bolt gun.
 

---

Posted by Catfish (Member # 2592) on May 13, 2008, 07:25 AM:
 
Skoal,
Are you crazy??? ONLY ONE coyote rifle???? That`s crazy!!! I carry 2 in my pick-up at all time, some times more. I`ve got them in .17 cal, .20 cal, .22 cal, .24 cal, .25 cal, and .284 cal, and you want me to go down to just 1????? NO WAY BABY !!!!!!
 

---

Posted by skoal (Member # 1492) on May 13, 2008, 09:32 AM:
 
Hang on Catfish , Its only a question not a proposal. I have two good shooting 22-250's and a couple of ar's as well as a couple of shot guns just for predators. I was thinking of having another ar in .204 and just wanted to see if anyone mentioned the caliber , it got little note which makes me question my thinking,this is a good thing,Thanks for all the responses.
(edit) to note yes I am crazy.

[ May 13, 2008, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: skoal ]
 

---

Posted by skoal (Member # 1492) on May 13, 2008, 10:19 AM:
 
Mr. Taylor
You mentioned your AR in .204 What do you like about it and what keeps it in the armory rather than in the field. with my current AR's both in .223 one has a heavy bbl and is in fact heavy as well as loud it stays home alot, my other is just a vanilla stag arms its just boring.
I was wanting a .204 with as short a bbl as possible wthout defeating the .204 and as light as it can be made.as well as some cool finish just to make me want to pick it up.

[ May 13, 2008, 10:20 AM: Message edited by: skoal ]
 

---

Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on May 13, 2008, 11:46 AM:
 
22-250, sporter weight, 24" barrel.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on May 13, 2008, 12:44 PM:
 
Paul,
If you are asking the question, if you could only have an AR in one caliber to coyote hunt with………….I would say the 204…..

Not Cal and I would like to see what he has to say also, but I would offer this.
I bought a couple of 204 upper last summer. I sold one to a buddy and had a lighter one built. It has a 21” Shilen barrel turned to .660 in front of and under the hand guard. I went with a 21” after looking at the report Bullberry put out on 204 barrel length verses velocity. It weighs comparable to a 16” HBar (.750) profiled upper.

I emailed Cal last summer also to ask him what bullet and real world performance he was getting in his upper. On his recommendation and others I visited with, I loaded up some 35gr Berger’s.
I used the 204, 233 and 25WSSM uppers last year and I know I shot over thirty coyotes with the 204. Only one was not recovered. I do have to say that Bean found a couple that I had shot broadside and they left the scene into the high grass. The same as they would with the 223 every now and again.
This combo was easy on fur and I had no exits on cats as close as 15 steps.
Kelly



one with the new pup JRT doing tricks


 

---

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 13, 2008, 01:44 PM:
 

quote:

---

204, 233 and 25WSSM uppers

---

Umm? Should we assume a typo, Kelly?

Personal to Paul
Don't do it, big fella! In the name of all that's Holy! It's like crack. You start out with just a taste and before you realize it, it's semiauto city. Besides, one good shot is all you need?

You know; Byron uses an AR. Need I say more?

Good hunting. LB
 

---

Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on May 13, 2008, 01:57 PM:
 
L. Yep typo. 233 should have been 223....and you are right you can't hardly stop at one.....but Paul said he already has a couple....it already too late for him I am afraid...
 

---

Posted by skoal (Member # 1492) on May 13, 2008, 02:51 PM:
 
Cant wait til its time to go after em again and I can stop all this nonsense in the off time!
Your right Kelly its been too late for me for along time! and dont worry Leonard ther is no .17 in my future. I dont shoot prairie dogs Yet.......
 

---

Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on May 13, 2008, 10:10 PM:
 
I'd have to say that the closest to perfect, across the board coyote rifle would be the 22-250.

But for myself, I prefer the 17 Remington.

As for actions, why would any one who knows how to shoot, choose anything but a bolt action?
 

---

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 14, 2008, 05:06 AM:
 
Only ONE coyote rifle? .243 Winchester with 24 inch barrel.
 

---

Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on May 14, 2008, 08:57 AM:
 
For 18 years it was a .22-250,the last 3 were the .204.Both were great.

But this year I will probably shoot my new .17 Remington Exclusively....

Next year it may be the .14 walker.....LOL

Good Hunting Chad
 

---

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 14, 2008, 09:02 AM:
 
I think I'm going to be sick! BOO!
 

---

Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on May 14, 2008, 02:36 PM:
 
Ditto what Chad said. 39 Bk's performed well in my .204, but I settled in on the 35 bergers.
 

---

Posted by Steve C (Member # 510) on May 14, 2008, 02:47 PM:
 
243 improved. 65 vmax or 70 nosler ballistic tips. H414/IMR4350 both seem to shoot well.
 

---

Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on May 14, 2008, 08:40 PM:
 
I think I would go with a drilling in a 12ga X 12ga X 22-250 config. Of course I would have to sell every gun I have to make the down payment.
 

---

Posted by bajabug (Member # 919) on May 18, 2008, 09:49 PM:
 
A Rem. Mod. 1100 12 ga. auto with a complete set of chokes. With that setup,no beast woud be safe.
 

---

Posted by Burger (Member # 1486) on May 21, 2008, 10:14 PM:
 
22-250...but I've got a fever, and the only cure is an AR
 

---

Posted by KevinKKaller (Member # 559) on May 25, 2008, 01:59 PM:
 
I carry a 22-250, 20ackly hornet 204, or a 20 classic a lot but it would be hard to think only 1 my 20-250 or a 6-284.
I think I would have to go with the 20-250 with 40 or 50 grn Burgers if I could ony have 1.
Good Hunting Kevin
 

---

Posted by Lungbuster (Member # 630) on May 25, 2008, 08:58 PM:
 
I'm waiting for the fall to see how my 204 does on fur. I'm getting no exit holes on ground hogs with 40gr V-max's and 24gr of Benchmark...




I'm hoping it performs the same on coyotes.
 

---

Posted by KevinKKaller (Member # 559) on May 25, 2008, 09:37 PM:
 
Lungbuster how are you likeing Id so far?
Hope all is well give me a call maybe we can go shoot some w-pigs some weekend
Good Hunting
 

---

Posted by Cranky Farmer (Member # 3029) on July 29, 2008, 01:20 PM:
 
It would be my 6 x 47 for me.
 

---

Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on July 30, 2008, 12:33 PM:
 
If just for coyotes a .243 with an 80 grain bullet kept under 3100 FPS, I have been very impressed with this caliber and bullet combo.
 

---

Posted by George Ackley (Member # 898) on July 30, 2008, 01:02 PM:
 
Remington 700 in 7 mm 140 grain federal ballistic tip sighed tin 100 yard 3 1/2'' high
 

---

Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on July 30, 2008, 01:08 PM:
 
I already have this rifle and it will have a home till I'm too old to shoot it anymore. Its a stainless Remington action with a stainless Shilen barrel in 243 AI in 1-8 twist. It will shoot anything I put in it into nice small groups. If I weren't so lazy I would put it in a McMillan stock in desert camo, maybe in the next couple of years. Did I mention I'm also pretty busy and lazy.
 

---

Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on July 31, 2008, 04:59 AM:
 
George,

Have you tried the 142 Amax? It's my favorite for my 7mm.
 

---

Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on July 31, 2008, 01:08 PM:
 
Ive pretty much run thru all the different calling calibers over the years, and had rifles chambered in .223,.22-250,220 swift, .243,.22 hornet,.17 ackley hornet,and my favorite the .19 Calhoon, but realize it has limitations.
If I had to have just one, it would be my .17 Remington, it's the biggest calling rifle I have and is more than enough for my calling style and situations.
 

---

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 31, 2008, 01:57 PM:
 
Yeah, decent choice in your area and for how you approach the situation.

If you were to go on a coyote safari to northern Nevada and bring your trusty 17 Rem. (not just me) but anybody driving the bus; would laugh at you. Peace, Amigo!

See you at the Ronde in Globe. Big surprise, too!

Good hunting. LB

edit: I'm out of here, don't burn the place down!

[ July 31, 2008, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

---

Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on July 31, 2008, 03:30 PM:
 
Dan that is why I like my remy .243 has a 1-9 1/8 twist it really likes those Noslers 80-90 it will shoot both darn well. Those 80's are more of a hunting bullet will smack them real dead and does amazingly little damage to them at all, I'm not one to worry about fur damage it was just a plus in it all.
 

---

Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on July 31, 2008, 05:50 PM:
 
Ah, I don't buy that Leonard.My brothers have been shooting those big Northern Nevada coyotes in the wide open for years with there .17's and my .204 ruger has put down a few too. I hope I don't get to many snickers when I'm out calling in Northern Nevada this fall cuz my new .17 Remington is all i'm going to be using. For my day calling stands that is.

Good Hunting Chad

[ July 31, 2008, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
 

---

Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on July 31, 2008, 06:20 PM:
 
I don't get the idea of using a .17 in areas that are wind prone? In more open country I like a bullet and caliber that has good wind bucking ability and enough knock down power for coyotes out to 500 yrds.
 

---

Posted by Cranky Farmer (Member # 3029) on July 31, 2008, 06:57 PM:
 
Do you often get shots like that out on the open prairie?

quote:

---

I like a bullet and caliber that has good wind bucking ability and enough knock down power for coyotes out to 500 yrds.

---

 

---

Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on July 31, 2008, 08:11 PM:
 
I get shots from 300-500; all the time no, but I do get hung up coyotes at those ranges and I want enough gun to be useful and accurate in such situations.

I would rather be over powered than under and I want a gun that can handle 10-15 mph winds as many days you need to call in the wind little choice.
 

---

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on July 31, 2008, 08:13 PM:
 
I guess I'll stick with my .223, it seems to work for me on pretty much anything I do.

Probably this one, R. Shaw says they're handy when I call in a whole herd of em.


[ July 31, 2008, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
 

---

Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on July 31, 2008, 08:36 PM:
 
coyote whacker,

No offense meant, but if you are frequently getting coyotes hanging up at 300-500 yards, you are either a piss poor judge of range, or you are seriously f***ing up your stands.

I'm betting you aren't holding still on the stand, and rapidly move to face a coyote and bring up the rifle as soon as you see him. You aren't carrying binoculars with you on the stand are you? Or jabbering to a partner about the approaching coyote?

When you see one, keep calling and don't lift the rifle until he's inside of one hundred yards, better yet, ease it up as he closes on fifty yards.
 

---

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on August 01, 2008, 06:51 AM:
 
A real coyote caliber begins with the old .222, but with .223 ammo being available almost everywhere, it is the smallest caliber that we should be recommending for coyote callers. Then there is bullet choice. I see a lot of guys talking about use of 40 grain varmint bullets on coyotes. Too much chance of bullet failure on shoulder bones, resulting in large entry wounds and coyotes that don't get dead before they make it to the plum thicket. A good strong 50-55 grainer would be better choice. The various .17's and .20's are for prairie dogs and such. Looking at the bullet drop tables in my old Speer #11 reloading manual, a hot loaded .243 Winchester with 24" barrel shoots an 85 grain Speer spitzer at very close to same trajectory as a .22-.250 shooting a 55 grainer out to 300 yards. If you need to shoot a coyote at longer range than 300 yards, then you didn't call it. Now with the .243 bullet I mentioned above, the bullet drop would be about same as a .22-.250 and still have quite a lot more whomp and stomp when bullet strikes coyote. Since I like my coyotes dead, and don't like to track runners, the .243 looks like the best choice. I shoot a .257 Roberts improved myself, but then I ain't a gambler.
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on August 01, 2008, 07:43 AM:
 

quote:

---

The various .17's and .20's are for prairie dogs and such.

---

This coyote could'nt tell the difference. The bullet also exited the other side. It was'nt luck either...

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/IMG_1805.jpg[/IMG]]
 

---

Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on August 01, 2008, 01:09 PM:
 
Tim B sorry I don't talk on stand or move about.Alot of my calling is by myself,sometimes I have others along with they are accomplished callers for the most part. I have steiner binocs I never leave "home" without them.The leica range finder doesn't lie much. Due to drought and other factors some coyotes just won't close the distance. We have many coyote calling contest in this area. We also have low coyote density's which my .02 has some with less agression due to those lower densitys. They even see my decoy dog and "some" just won't respond.

I give them plenty of time, called in a pair a few weeks back on a sheep kill complaint and it took an honest 40 mintues to get them to close the distance.

The key word was "some" not all by any means but your lucky if you get zero coyotes to hang up past 250, it happens no matter who does the calling or even time of year. Some of the most agressive coyotes are found in denning situations in the summer, yet "SOME" still hang up where I wouldn't want to be handeling a .17 or .20 cal for killing those that need to be killed. Add in 10-15 MPH winds and I would rather have the .243 sorry just me.

Thanks for the in sight though
 

---

Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on August 01, 2008, 02:30 PM:
 
Rich also look at wind drift which is a concern for many callers in open areas a .204 wind drift is as follows 300- 9.72" 400- 18.55" 500- 31.06" and at 500 yrds remaining energy 285 FPE

Now look at a 22-250 with a52 grain bullet same speed 300- 9.45" 400- 17.97" and 500- 29.99" and retained energy 500- 385 FPE

Then look at the .243 with 80 grain going 600 FPS slower than either 2 mentioned. 300- 8.18" 400- 15.39" and 500- 25.21 and the most important is rerained energy at 500- 606 FPE.

While not even accounting elevation drop just windage and energy one can see why a little bigger is better for open country coyotes for sure/quick kills. Take it to 15 MPH and it gets even more tricky with those small pill's and I didn't even compute the little .17 in open country .
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on August 01, 2008, 03:49 PM:
 
Those small pills don't drift as much as you think. I've shot my 22-250 ackley and 17 rem. side by side at targets on a windy day and the 17 only drifts one inch more than the 22-250 ackley.
1 inch is'nt going to make that much of a difference and it will still kill them out to 500 yds
 

---

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on August 01, 2008, 04:25 PM:
 
coyote whacker,
Yes sir, but some guys won't let a few facts sway em.
 

---

Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on August 01, 2008, 05:19 PM:
 
TA17 I can under stand but you can not deny physics.

You can see by the bal numbers you are correct on 20 cal the .17 might be the same, the problems are FT lbs of energy and when you take the wind up 5 mph it doesn't go up by adding half it is more than that!

Also on the .17 I'm betting you are in the low 200's of FPE with the little .17, not something I would have alot of confidance in shooting at 500 yrds on a coyote! Just me though I don't like runners or loosers.
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on August 01, 2008, 08:46 PM:
 
My 17 has a little over 200 ft.pounds of energy at 500 yds.
The 17 cal bullet has less resistance compared to a larger bullet, and yet fragile enough to blow up inside and do damage to the coyote. The 17 is'nt trying to knock the coyote over just penetrate and kill it by damageing internal organs..

The best way to explain it is take a 1/2 steel plate, try to drill a hole with a 3/8" bit and then do the same with a smaller bit.
Less resistance for smaller bit so it will go through faster.. You can read all the books you want, it don't mean anything to me .. Just actual experience does.
Some say its too small for coyotes but i have a photo album of dead coyotes thats says different..
Use what you like and i'll use what works for me. There is a limit to how far i will shoot with mine and its somewhere around 550-600 yds...
 

---

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on August 01, 2008, 09:35 PM:
 
"Use what you like and i'll use what works for me. There is a limit to how far i will shoot with mine and its somewhere around 550-600 yds... "
-------------------------------
Now THAT's funny rat there, I don't care who you are. If ya can't laugh at that, then get the hell out of here.
 

---

Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on August 02, 2008, 07:31 AM:
 
resistance of a bullet? You actually think your little 17 is getting better penetration at long range than a heavier bullet with more FPE and less wind deflection?

Kenetic energy is what gives you penetration and how much speed you have left will determine what that bullet will do.

Good luck to you and good day.
 

---

Posted by RagnCajn (Member # 879) on August 02, 2008, 10:25 AM:
 

quote:

---

Kenetic energy is what gives you penetration

---

Kenetic energy is the amount of force required to move an object.

Sectional Density is what gives penetration.

[ August 02, 2008, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: RagnCajn ]
 

---

Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on August 02, 2008, 12:01 PM:
 
I'm a little late to the party, BUT hey, better late than never. Hope I didn't keep anyone waiting!
If you would've asked me this about 20 years ago, my answer would've been different, and if you'd asked me this question just about 15 years ago, my answer would've been different,and if you would've asked me this same question about 5 years ago, my answer would've been different, BUT since we're here today and you're asking it now, I'll go with my little D-tech .204!
 

---

Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on August 02, 2008, 01:58 PM:
 
Kinetic energy is used all the time to calculate relative penetration of an arrow with weight and speed as the variances or better or worse penetration.

Kinetic energy is the energy of motion. An object which has motion - whether it be vertical or horizontal motion - has kinetic energy. There are many forms of kinetic energy - vibrational (the energy due to vibrational motion), rotational (the energy due to rotational motion), and translational (the energy due to motion from one location to another). To keep matters simple, we will focus upon translational kinetic energy. The amount of translational kinetic energy (from here on, the phrase kinetic energy will refer to translational kinetic energy) which an object has depends upon two variables: the mass (m) of the object and the speed (v) of the object. The following equation is used to represent the kinetic energy (KE) of an object.
 

---

Posted by RagnCajn (Member # 879) on August 02, 2008, 02:25 PM:
 
Kinetic energy as related to an arrow determines how much force you are delivering on the mass of the arrow to penetrate the mass of the target.

A smaller diameter object will require less kinetic energy to penetrate an object than a large diameter object will require. It is the sectional density of the object that will determine how deep the penetration will be. If this was not the case, then we would use a tack hammer to drive bridge spikes through the beams.

Sectional density is what will determine the depth of penetration from a free flying bullet of equal speeds and weights. A 55 grain bullet from a 22 cal rifle will penetrate farther than a 55 grain 243 cal bullet if both bullets or of equal construction and velocities.
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on August 02, 2008, 02:36 PM:
 
well thanks for the college course on energy...
I went out today and did a little test..

I brought along my 17 pred with 30 gr. h.p. and my 22-250 ackley with 52 gr. A-max. Both guns are pushing the bullet along at 3950 fps. ( Avr. vel. tested on chrono.)

I set up a steel plate that was .342" thick.

The steel plate was shot at a 100 yds with both rifles, 2 shot groups. At 100 yds both bullets went all the way through the steel plate..

Next i shot both rifles at the steel plate at 600 yds, i had a bit of a S-E wind so i had to dial 2" in on the 22-250 ackley and also the same 2" on the 17 pred.. Once again two shot groups fired by both rifles, neither bullet penatrated the steel plate but the 17 left a little dent compared to the 22-250 ackley..

Next test was at 300 yds. and bullets from both rifles went into the steel plate but did not exit. The 17 gr bullet went the deepest of the two cal.

17 cal 30 gr, bullet depth= .330,.324"

22-250 ack. 52 gr. bullet depth= .223, .149"

The 22-250 ackley did make a larger dia. hole but did not go as deep as the 17 cal..

I'm sure we can agree that steel is stronger than flesh and that the 17 cal 30 gr, bullet is good enough for killing coyotes out to 500-600 yds.

The 52 gr. bullet out wieghed the 3o gr. bullet by 22 gr.'s so it should of gone deeper into the steel plate than the 17 cal did according to youre books on ft. lbs. of energy..

I don't have all the answers but i do know from experiance that the 17 will get er done...

I have a few pic's of steel plate so you can see for youre self the results... http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/IMG_1860.jpg[/IMG]]

Two 17 cal holes fired at 300 on the left, one single hole made by the 22-250 ackley also at 300 yds.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/IMG_1853.jpg[/IMG]]

Pic of complete target, notice the 17 cal grouped a little tighter than the 22-250 ackley..
 

---

Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on August 02, 2008, 03:39 PM:
 
sectional density goes up with bullet weight so in this light it is apples and oranges!

You have more mass meaning more ft lbs of energy at extended ranges look it up on your bal program. It holds more energy as it is less effected by the outside force of wind/gravity.

Can you get a 52 grain .17 cal bullet?

At 500 yards your down to 136ft lbs of energy compared to the 385 of the 22-250 so I can't see how your test on steel would show an advantage of the .17? I would shoot Bal gel at those ranges and I'm betting you would see your 22-250 out performing your .17 at 500+ yards in penetration and impact power!

As far as arrows you need to find the right arrow at 30yrds+ that will give you decent FPS and good kinetic energy on impact. That is why they make different weight carbon arrows one can use depending on the bow lbs one needs to shoot. I always had better penetration shooting a 70lb bow with heavier arrows than lighter.It retains more of the energy than lighter arrows as the distance increases.

Bottom line there are many,many experianced shooters who would tell you a .17 or .20 cal is not a long range rifle for even coyotes, if one expects good clean kills a high% of the time. They are more effected by outside forces than larger projectiles and lack the retained energy at longer ranges or the BR guys would be shooting them due to little recoil.
 

---

Posted by RagnCajn (Member # 879) on August 02, 2008, 03:54 PM:
 
Never said a 17 cal bullet would be the best long range option. My point was that kenetic energy does not determine penetration. Sectional density does.
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on August 02, 2008, 03:56 PM:
 

quote:

---

At 500 yards your down to 136ft lbs of energy compared to the 385 of the 22-250 so I can't see how your test on steel would show an advantage of the .17? I would shoot Bal gel at those ranges and I'm betting you would see your 22-250 out performing your .17 at 500+ yards in penetration and impact power!

---

quote:

---

Bottom line there are many,many experianced shooters who would tell you a .17 or .20 cal is not a long range rifle for even coyotes,

---

How many would i have to kill in order to have this experiance???
Do these experianced shooters use 17 cal.s for hunting coyotes???
I've seen coyotes shot at various distances with 22-250, 243, 223. and a 300 weatherby mag. a bad hit is a bad hit no matter what you use.

The ballistic gell would show how far a bullet will penitrate.. I don't need mine to go through and through just inside where it needs to be to do the damage.. leaves only one hole to sew up instead of two...

One of the reason the BR guys use a 30 cal bullet has to do with the dia.. The 30 cal leaves a bigger hole for scoreing compared to a 17 cal bullet. A small miss with a 17 cal could put you out of the lead vrs. the 30 with its larger dia can keep you in the game...
Just for youre info i have a hand full of coyotes taken at 500-550 yds. but according to youre findings they should'nt be dead.

[ August 02, 2008, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

---

Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on August 03, 2008, 06:58 AM:
 
Tim give me the bullet weight,bullet BC& MV and I will run your exact load on 3 different bal programs to see if I can get 1 to give 200 ft lbs from a .17 at 500 yrds. I was using a standard load.

The 200- 600 yrd BR is being won by many who shoot 6mm-264 calibers far more than 27-30 calibers.

We will agree to disagree on the leathality of .17" and .20's at long range for high% of kills in open country and accuracy in winds compaired to other calibers for that 1 rifle choice as the question was posed. Good hunting and good day.
 

---

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on August 03, 2008, 09:38 AM:
 

quote:

---

The 200- 600 yrd BR is being won by many who shoot 6mm-264 calibers far more than 27-30 calibers.

---

quote:

---

These little pissing matches always tickle me,and thankfully, they never get nasty over here.

---

Its all in fun!

I'm not trying to sell the idea that everyone should have a 17 cal. Its my choice of what i prefer to use if i could only have one gun for hunting coyotes..I've got some bigger ones in the gun locker but they are'nt as much fun to shoot....
 

---

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 03, 2008, 12:17 PM:
 
Yeah, these pissing matches tickle me, too. I don't give a shit what cartridge blows your skirt up, but some of the claims either defy physics or the data was obtained on another planet?

Another thing. Some of the arguments for and against deserve a separate thread for the merits of the question, and the validity of the debate points; because steel plates and wind drift and penetration and foot pounds and sectional density, and kinetic energy, not to mention calculating bullet drop at 600 yards, and the ability of large diameter bullets to help knick scoring rings, it's just a complicated issue......ya know, call them critters inside of 100 yards and there's no problem, etc., etc., etc.

I have never seen it fail though. When you get down to brass tacks, there are people saying that up is down, and black is white and small is large. Even if you did it a few times, would you bet the farm that you are going to kill the next bedded coyote with that kool sub caliber, or are you going to use something a little more logical? You know, is your motivation zero damage or dead critters?

Lastly, blanket statements about various 243s and 204s and 17s is meaningless without discussing the terminal performance of the selected bullet. I mean, what kind of expansion factor are you getting from a bullet with 140 ft lbs? Are we seriously suggesting that this is a good receipe for long range coyote hunting.....in any form?

Even Chad, okay great he intends to use a subcaliber on NV coyotes and then is careful to add that he means on daylights. That was the intent of my comment to my friend Vic when I said the guys would laugh at him and his 17. Ther is no doubt in my mind that at the end of the week, a few more 17 shot coyotes are going to get away, and I don't care how great a shot on game you are. Really kind of simple. It's like telling me a pint of half and half is the new "half gallon". What? Where?

All in good fun, LB

edited for spelling, please excuse

[ August 03, 2008, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

---

Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on August 03, 2008, 03:06 PM:
 
I agree with Vic,500-600 yards shots on coyotes is just to far,aleast for me,300 yards is about Max for my book.I have really been bitten by the small caliber bug as of late.They are just fun to shoot and I have REALLY enjoyed the results.If a guy doesn't feel confident with the small calibers,by all means stick with those larger calibers,but I have grown to really love shooting the small stuff.I have not seen a change one bit in the number of coyotes that have ran off,and/or gotten away since I switched to a smaller Caliber,from my .223's,.22-250, or .243.Might be because I shot most of my coyotes with the larger calibers at the same ranges as with the smaller one(0-300 yards).I would be the first to stop using the small calibers if I started to get runners or lose coyotes due to lack of terminal performance,it just hasn't happened yet,and to be honest I don't expect it will either..

Good Hunting Chad

[ August 03, 2008, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
 

---

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on August 03, 2008, 06:37 PM:
 
Right now, I do only have one (functional) rifle, my .308 carbine, and, while it made the last coyote really dead, it's not a great fur harvester...

But, I just got off the phone with my 'smith.

I'm having a designated coyote rifle built. (whooo hooo!)

It'll be a Mauser '98, carbine, in .243 AI.
I've got a Lilja med-heavy bbl (which will be cut down to 16"), and a bantam stock, coming, while the action is being blueprinted, and the bolt "worked"... it should have a very stubby OAL of about 33".

Sort of a way overboard, over-bored, Coyote Gods rifle?

Krusty

[ August 03, 2008, 06:39 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
 

---

Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on August 04, 2008, 06:31 AM:
 
Vic is right, I have lost my mind! 500 and 600 yard coyotes are not the norm here by any means. But I do shoot quite a few at 300 to 400 in the summertime around dens. Generally the first coyote is close and sometimes both are with the dogs, but fairly regularly out of two or three old ones on a den, you shoot one or two and the second or third leaves, then comes back in a little while to check things out and since it knows what happened there a little while ago they will hang up out there at a few hundred. It is really a necessity for me to be able to kill those coyotes. Also sometimes I get into situations of having a highly educated coyote that I really need dead and I may only get one chance at him and it may be 3 or 4 hundred. I pack my rangefinder at all times and usually a rifle that is up to the task. I know my situation and country are different than most.
 

---

Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on August 04, 2008, 07:37 AM:
 
I can see your point 3 Toes.You have a job to do.And you need problem coyotes dead.If I were in that situation I would go for a larger caliber with a higher B.C bullet too. For me as just a Rec. caller and Part time fur harvester,I can limit small caliber shots to the 300 yard range,and if I have one hang up out at 400-500 yards,I can try calling from a different direction,or try a different day.If I don't get him no big deal,there are plenty more out there that will come to the call.Like Scott(Wiley E) said a while back "it is alot harder to call THE coyote than A coyote".Very true indeed.
 

---

Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on August 04, 2008, 07:53 AM:
 
UT is right Cal, and I trust you took no offense at my post. You have a job to do, and I often forget that most of us are doing this for the sheer fun and enjoyment of it.
I'll very rarely take a swag at a 300 yard coyote, any further than that, like UT, I'll hopefully catch it another day or from another stand. It's pure pleasure for me when Im out coyote hunting,and like you made the point of mentioning, I don't have to kill it, and you do.
I can't wait to sit around the camp this year, and tell some lies with you around the fire pit, was pleased to hear your going to make it down.
 

---

Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on August 04, 2008, 03:06 PM:
 
For what it is worth Wiley aka Scott H is shooting a .243 as well! He bought his and then I bought mine and the results are great! before that we both shot our issued 22-250's and for the most part they did the job well, but I have found the 6mm to do it better and deader, not to mention when needed for longer kills the confidance in that 80 grain bullet. The only draw back is a bit more recoil.

Not to mention the load I have is fur friendly although that is not my concern, it work out to be very fur friendly even on those thin summer coyotes.

After talking with another co worker who shoots alot, the next gun may be a 6mm Norma BR as you can obtain decent velocity,great accuracy, longer barrel life and reload around 250 rounds off of 1 LB of powder! Will be awhile before the wife allows another gun in the home though LOL!

Also my 25-06 is another better and deader gun, the problem is even more recoil and seeing even less through the scope, I still use it on occasion but makes a dandy goat/deer gun. If I didn't shoot my 4x4 WT last year at 466 yards then he would have been gone due to lack of cover to get closer.

[ August 04, 2008, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: coyote whacker ]
 

---

Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on August 04, 2008, 04:04 PM:
 
Onecoyote rifle? I can't go wrong....A 225 Win? Emm maybe a 224 WM? How about a 19 Zipper? Awww the heck with it, I'll just pick a side by side 22-250/220swift.

[ August 04, 2008, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: onecoyote ]
 

---

Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on August 04, 2008, 08:13 PM:
 
There ya go wacker, you found "the one" for you I guess. Thats the beauty of having so many calibers and rifle manufacturers out there, a flavor for everyone.
It's all about what suits a guy for his purpose and style of hunting. If I toted a .243 out to a stand, Id feel like I had a cannon in my hands, just way to much gun for what I do,and how I do it.
A 500 yard shot on a coyote is just outside the realm of the way I hunt/call them. Ive shot exactly one at close to that range(464) with my .17 rem,and I can't brag, it was a lot of guess-timate, which in turn means blind assed luck, but I did in fact kill it. Certainly didn't tip it over, I liver shot it. A liver shot coyote from whatever you hit it with always does a short death sprint,but at that range, with so little poop left, it of course went 30 or 40 yards before falling down.
If you need to shoot coyotes out past "Fort Mudge", then Im in full agreement, a .17 anything isn't the rifle to be carrying. Conversely, if your calling coyotes on my kind of stands, and in my backyard, you sure don't need a .243 or .25-06 or any other kind of shoulder cannon, so the .17s and .19s and hornets work extremely well.

[ August 04, 2008, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: Az-Hunter ]
 

---

Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on August 05, 2008, 02:59 PM:
 
As I posted I don't see why people who hunt open windy country would use such small caliber rifles?

Use what your terrain dictaits! End of the line for me on this thread good day and good hunting off to Iowa and the NTA!
 

---

Posted by SURESHOT (Member # 1122) on August 06, 2008, 10:31 PM:
 
My favorite today is my 6.8 cartridge necked down to 22. 50 grain nosler , 31 grains powder =4,ooofps.
 

---

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on August 07, 2008, 06:51 AM:
 
Sureshot, what rifle is that wildcat chambered in?
 

---

Posted by SURESHOT (Member # 1122) on August 07, 2008, 12:27 PM:
 
rich its chambered on a ar15 upper 20inch barrel and it is a tack driver. about the same recoil as my 204 upper.
 

---

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 07, 2008, 01:15 PM:
 
Welcome to the New Huntmastersbbs.com, sureshot. Glad to have you on board. You have been around a long time before posting.

I think Higgins wants to know the original cartridge used in the wildcat you are describing, not what sort of gun you have it chambered for?

Good hunting. LB
 

---

Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on August 10, 2008, 10:35 AM:
 
6.8 necked down to 22 - I knew it was only a matter of time before somebody had an upper made.

Who did yours?
 

---

Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on August 10, 2008, 11:43 AM:
 
I'm pretty sure you can get the 6.8 SPC in a factory Rem 700. I've been thinking of another wildcat off that cartridge myself, but am trying to stay away from wildcats for now.

I'm going to assume you meant "One cartridge" since that appears to be the way this thread is running.

I have used 6mm's down to the 17 M4. I tend to always come back to the 17 Rem. as my favorite for what I do.

Every once in a while I'll call in a fox or bobcat, so the 17 generally works well all around for me.

If you meant "One Rifle" I'd probably go with a Rem 700.

[ August 10, 2008, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: DanS ]
 

---

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 10, 2008, 11:57 AM:
 
Interesting observation. The question is a little vague, but I see it as a package, hard to "have only one coyote rifle" without it being chambered in something or other?

So, that's easy, Dan banks on a Remington 700 in 17 Rem.

Hard to beat a Model 700. It doesn't cover enough possibilities chambered in 17, for my application?

Good hunting. LB
 

---

Posted by RedRabbit (Member # 796) on October 15, 2008, 01:23 AM:
 
The .17 Rem and other small callibers still speak for them selves just look at this board and Geez! lets not mention why the hell are they still making them and touting them as coyote rifles. I chose this rifle because of its flat trajectory and the rifle I bought lended itself to accurizing quite well and it certainly lives up to that lightning fast kills that you can see through the scope.

Wind drift? 100 yrds it stays plenty stable for "calling" even with a stiff wind I wouldnt hesitate even at 300 for that matter, but for real long range work thats a different case no matter what your shooting, but who has time to consult a balistic table anyway when the momment is at hand, sure maybe you do, but who the wants to especially when the coyotes the same color as the sagebrush and the snow you can lose them at that distance as soon as you take your eyes off them.

Shit Hell! Ill take a long risky poke if the conditions are right, since I take running shots anyway at 100 yarders.

.17 Rem is all I have for a predator rifle right now and I dont feel handicapped one bit, so get that .204 you'll be in like Flynn and proud like the rest of us small calliber predator hunters.

P.S. use the heavier bullets, since they dont construct light bullets very well. Take it from me I have experienced this and its not pretty.

edited; for spelling

[ October 15, 2008, 01:53 AM: Message edited by: RedRabbit ]
 

---

Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on October 22, 2008, 03:49 AM:
 
Put my new 204 on a coyote at 90 yds and watched the bullet splash on his shoulder right before he ran off seemingly untouched.. 39 gr blitzkings.. back to my6 284.
 

---

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on October 22, 2008, 05:11 AM:
 
"Put my new 204 on a coyote at 90 yds and watched the bullet splash on his shoulder right before he ran off seemingly untouched.. 39 gr blitzkings.. back to my6 284."
-----------------------------
I have spoken many times on the use of varmint bullets for coyotes. I don't know why I keep beating my head against the wall like this, but why in the hell do people keep using those Blitz Kings, SX, and other prairie dog bullets on coyotes? Surface splash with those bullets is gonna happen when you shoot em out of the needle guns. I have even seen it happen with the .223 Remington when shooting 50-52 grain varmint bullets. Most of the time it is poor bullet choice and a poor hit that causes lost coyotes. Choosing a strongly constructed bullet can make a very big difference. Full metal jackets are bad news also. Choose a bullet that is designed for the job, and you will be a much happier coyote hunter.
 

---

Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on October 22, 2008, 03:12 PM:
 
Good advice Rich.

Varmint bullet's are just that,Coyote's aren't varmint's.

You see thread's across the internet what's the best coyote bullet..V-Max or Blitzking. Nobody want's to talk hollow point's or soft point's.

Sorry if i'm bitter

JMO.

[ October 23, 2008, 07:24 AM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]
 

---

Posted by Mert Bargenquast (Member # 772) on October 24, 2008, 06:10 AM:
 
I have used about all of the smaller calibers and I think if I had to chose one it would be a 22-250 AI. I like a little bit heavier than a standard weight factory barrel with a 2 pound trigger pull. I might add that the Sierra 55gr. SBT bullets work really good on coyotes.
 

---

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on October 24, 2008, 09:39 AM:
 
"I have used about all of the smaller calibers and I think if I had to chose one it would be a 22-250 AI. I like a little bit heavier than a standard weight factory barrel with a 2 pound trigger pull. I might add that the Sierra 55gr. SBT bullets work really good on coyotes."
------------------------------------------
Mert is correct. What you want is Sierra's "Gameking" bullet, not the "varminter".
.224 dia. 55 gr. SBT GameKing 1365

[ October 24, 2008, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: Rich ]
 

---

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 24, 2008, 10:52 AM:
 
I have to admit, he sounds like he knows what he is talking about? For all around performance on coyotes, it is very hard to beat a 22-250Ackley....especially with the heavier bullets.

Good hunting. LB
 

---

Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on October 25, 2008, 05:43 AM:
 
Rich, I was not surprised by the bk performance on that coyotes shoulder,well aware of that possibilty,, however it was the only bullet I had available to me on that trip.But not the only rifle.I should have slid back a little on the body and he would have went down.Was just trying something different. I have dropped then dead in their tracks at 200 yds running with the same bullet. .Sometimes you have to shoot what you got and not your first choice.Don't bother to beat you head against the wall on my account,I am well aware of what I do in this game . Besides you might ruin that great head of hair you have, wish I had some of it.Hope to see you again sometime.

[ October 25, 2008, 05:45 AM: Message edited by: 6mm284 ]
 

---

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on October 25, 2008, 01:35 PM:
 
6mm284,
I know what you mean, and I do the same thing quite often. Since I don't skin em anymore, dead is good enough for me. I have some 85 grain Combined technologies "ballistic silver tips" loaded up for my .257 Ackley that zip along at over 3600 fps, and they likely won't be fur friendly. I also have a couple of boxes of 55 grainers for my .243 that are gonna splash now and then. I am guilty of doing those things even though I know it won't set a good example for the squeamish crowd. "Hell with them coyotes, the buzzards gotta eat, same as worms".
 

---

Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on October 26, 2008, 04:38 AM:
 
Rich When I travel to call with my hunting partner , we are not able to keep the coyotes as he is a WS employee and that is forbidden.Have a WS aquaintance in CA that shoots some varmint grenades out of a 243.They have to use them in the condor range as lead bullets are banned. He says the grenades are hard on coyotes and I would think could splash.. The attractive thing about them he says is that they are an extremely accurate bullet.. some of the best he has ever used.And since he has alot of time and interest in working up his loads he may be right.. I was in CA a couple of months ago and was going to pass some time calling not realizing the lead ban had been passed for all hunting in the condor range.. Apparently some anti fed a condor a lead bullet and blamed it on lead in carion.So I am going to have to spend some time building a non lead load. Your 257 ackley would have to be in the tops for my choices of long range coyote getters.What an efficient round.
 

---

Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on October 28, 2008, 02:26 PM:
 
Red rabbitt you need to carry binoc's to every stand that way you can see those coyotes comming from along wyas off, those butt sitters that blend in and as a final point of inspection before I leave any stand is to glass intently for a few minutes!!! I wouldn't call without a decent pair of long range eye's! Becuase mine alone aren't great at 800-1000 yards!

6mm/284 those varmint grenades are a flat base bullet do you know what the BC is rated on those .243 offerings? I would bet a shoulder hit would be ugly with those and some runner coyotes for sure! Tell your friend Nosler just came out with a 95 grain E tip offering for the 6mm/.243 caliber line! I'm thinking a higher BC than those varmint grenades and will hold up better on shoulder hit coyotes? If one needs to use non lead bullets!
 

---

UBB.classic^TM 6.3.0