This is topic 204 coyote loads in forum Firearms forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on December 27, 2008, 01:37 PM:
I have a 204 Im going to play around with some and was wondering what everybody is shooting for coyote loads?
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on December 27, 2008, 02:59 PM:
Mine likes the 35 gr. bergers and benchmark so far , still working with it about .5" at 100 yards was hoping for better but that may be about it with this rifle.
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on December 27, 2008, 06:54 PM:
Hey Jeremy, I shoot 30.7 grains of BLC-2 and the 35 grain Berger.
Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on December 27, 2008, 09:26 PM:
Thats the load I have seen most shoot, but what about the 39BK? any better or any worse?
Posted by howler (Member # 197) on December 28, 2008, 05:57 AM:
the 39 grain serria Blitzkings are probably the most accurate bullets for the 204. I use them for Prairie Dogs and couldn't be happeir, ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
a friend of mine uses them exclusivly for PD's and coyotes and swears by them. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
no exits at all. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
i use the 35 bergers for my coyotes and I do get exits on occasion but not very bad at all. the 32 grain V max are great also.
my loads for the the 39's are 25 grains Reloader 10 X with a remington 7 1/2 primer WW cases . with a COL of 2.366
for the 35 grain bergers I use 28.4 grains of H 4895 and the remington 7 1/2 prinmers with a COL of 2.271.
The hornady 32 grain V Max I use 27 grains of H 322 and the remington 7 1/2 primers and a col of 2.360
With my Browning Varmint Stalker I have to use a tad shorter COL with the 35 grain HP's it jsut wont load right, ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
the plastic tipped bullets are all OK at the longer lenght .
Now remember these work well in my rifle so start a little under iand work up, all these loads will shoot under a 1/2 inch at 100 yards eccept the 39's they shoot under 3/8th
[ December 28, 2008, 06:03 AM: Message edited by: howler ]
Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on December 28, 2008, 07:21 AM:
thanks guys i will try the 35 bergers.
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on December 28, 2008, 08:01 AM:
cal powder chg weight primer bullet oal
204 H4895 28gr Win S/R 35gr Berger 2.257 oal.
This has shot well in three 204's that I have played with.
Does good on cats, no exits to date. Blows hell out of fox.
On coyotes its all about shot placement.
Kelly
Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on December 28, 2008, 02:16 PM:
I've got two loads that have worked great for my AR. With the 35 gr. berger over 28.0 g. H4895 and the other is 40 gr. berger over 27.2 g. H4895. The only thing close to a pass through that I've had was a broadside shot runner that I hit way low in the chest. Basically unzipped his chest. Otherwise, I've had zero pass throughs with either load.
Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on December 29, 2008, 06:25 AM:
How about a good factory round someone prefers? I shoot the 40gr hornady vmax now. Always looking to improve.
Anyone try the 45 grain spire point?? Anyone shoot coyotes with it??
[ December 29, 2008, 06:26 AM: Message edited by: Patterson ]
Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on December 29, 2008, 07:49 AM:
You would need a 1-10 twist barrel to stabilize the 40+ grain bullets. Most of the factories are using a 1-12 twist.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on December 29, 2008, 07:59 AM:
The Hornady 45 is pretty stubby, they work fine in a 12T.
Shot a few coyotes with them, and it worked well, but I'm launching them about 400 fps faster than the .204 does, so not an apples to apples comparison.
- DAA
Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on December 29, 2008, 09:49 AM:
Its common knowledge that not all 1-12 twist barrels will stabilize a 40 grain bullet. DPMS has a disclaimer attached to their 204 stating such.
Even if the 45 grain Hornady bullet is about the same bearing surface and over all length of a 40, will not mean it will be stabilized in a 1-12 twist, as it cannot be pushed as fast. It does mean it will have a lower B/C and will drop more in a given distance and have less energy upon impact.
Furthermore, there is a 600+- FPS loss of velocity between a 32 and a 45 grain bullet, to say nothing on the lower B/C of the 45 as compared to the 39-40 grain 204 bullets. Velocity made the 204 Ruger what it is.
http://www.rugerhunting.com/204_ammo.php
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on December 29, 2008, 11:05 AM:
Well, be all that as it may, the 45 gr. Hornady works just fine in factory 12 twist, .204 Ruger barrels, and I've never heard of or personally seen one having any stability issues with it.
The 40 Vmax, the 39 BK, even the 40 B-tip, all I have heard or actually seen have problems in 12T barrels. But never the 45 Hornady. I don't have any with me right now to measure, but I wouldn't be surprised that the 45 is actually shorter than any of the plastic tipped 39/40's.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 29, 2008, 12:32 PM:
That, and the fact that with a higher capacity case than the parent 223, as Dave said; he drives a 45 gr. Horn 400 fps faster than a factory 204Ruger, this can be enough to stabilize a marginal bullet in a 1-12 twist. Of course, all things being equal, a faster twist might be appropriate for long, heavy bullets, but velocity can overcome the stability problem with marginal specs and components.
What you got, Dave? Is it based on a blown out 250 case? So, you are getting roughly 4200 with a 45 grain bullet? At those speeds, it sounds like it might be a good coyote bullet, exits the far side with a hole about the size of a quarter? Just a guess?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on December 29, 2008, 12:46 PM:
I have no problems stabilizing either the 40's or the 45 in either one of my 12 twist 204 rugers.One is the Ruger Hawkeye,the other a 23" contender barrel.They both shoot very good groups.I have been running the 45 grain softpoints at alittle over 3600 fps and with a BC of .245 with 26.5 grains of H4895, that's pretty close to the ballistics of my .22-250 and #1365 sierras(55 grain soft points) at 3600 fps.As far as a good fur bullet I have had great luck with the 35 grain bergers and 28.2 grains of H4895 they are running between 3850 and 3900 fps.
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on December 29, 2008, 01:15 PM:
I have been using 35 grain Bergers as well with H4895 28.6 grains and Remington 7.5 primers. No complaints, and no chrono test. I am using my hornady and sierra brass from when I was shooting factory ammo.
For factory ammo performance the 32 vmax had the best field performance for fur and targets. Around an average of .75 moa on paper. 40 grain vmax grew to around 1" moa and I had a lot more exits on coyotes. 39 bk's had large exits on broadside shots over 100 yards and about a .75 moa on paper. I ran through a two boxes of the 45 sp loaded by Hornady, and just felt I was giving up too much speed to put them down the way I like. Every shot was a pass thru. Ranges from 5 yards to 190 yards frontal, and 260 yards broadside and rear. I shot 3 shot groups at 100, 200, and 300 yards and they were stabilizing just fine out of my 1:12 twist to that range. I didn't end up handloading any of the 45's, but I might like them if my rifle could handle the pressure and oal to run them a lot hotter than the factory loads. The Berger just shoots to well to try anything else for me at this time. Everythign was shot out of a Savage Model 12, 24" Barrel with 1:12 twist.
[ December 29, 2008, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: tlbradford ]
Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on December 29, 2008, 01:55 PM:
tlbradford,
How was the bullet drop on those 45's, say out to 200-300?
Also how about runners vs. DRT. All the dogs you got get good damage and drop?
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on December 29, 2008, 02:19 PM:
Dan, did you mean the 12t wouldnt stabilize a 40gr bullet or just not bullets over 40gr? I have a CZ 527 American and the book says its a 12T?
I have shot 32 VMAX, 40 VMAX and 35 Berger. It seems to shoot all of these weights well.
Just curious.
I went to Sierra a couple weeks ago and bought a bunch of seconds by the pound. I got some 39 BK seconds. Some of them have the plastic tips missing. Im going to load some for prairie dogs. Just curious if anyone has shot those without the tips and what to expect. It has a hell of a hole in the end...
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on December 29, 2008, 03:02 PM:
I just did check, and the 45 Hornady is in fact about .075 shorter than the 40 Vmax. And only about .040 longer than the 32 Vmax. It's totally fine in 12T barrels. I talk to a lot of guys from the small caliber crowd and have just never heard otherwise.
Leonard, I'm just using the plain '250 case necked straight down with no other changes. My working load with the Hornady 45 is about 4040 fps. Mostly no exits, but what exits there have been, from quarter to fist. Haven't really shot too many with it though. As previously noted, it suffers a trajectory penalty vs. lighter sleeker pills, and flat trajectory is what my Big Twenty is all about .
Andy, I've never tried shooting groups with the tips missing, but I imagine they probably shoot fine like that. A bit lower B.C. without the tip, I'm sure, but probably no big whup. I HAVE shot a few p-dogs with missing tips, and they don't seem quite as explosive without the tip, but still plenty graphic enough.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 29, 2008, 03:05 PM:
We might need to get quite specific, Andy as every bullet has a slightly different shape, ogive, bearing surface and base. The caliber is the only thing they share, so a 40 grain weight is a good indication, but not the only criteria.
As a for instance, Sierra makes a 63 grain semipointed .224 that stabilizes fairly well in 1-14 and 1-15 twists. That sounds a lot like the 45 grain 20 caliber Hornady that is discussed, above.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on December 29, 2008, 05:38 PM:
For those of you who shoot the .204 Ruger, is there any noticeable difference in noise from say a 22-250 with barrels of equal length?
Thanks
Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on December 29, 2008, 06:08 PM:
"Its common knowledge that not all 1-12 twist barrels will stabilize a 40 grain bullet. DPMS has a disclaimer attached to their 204 stating such."
Of the 61 20 caliber rifles with the 1-12 twist I built over the years, I have not heard of any not stabilizing a 40 grain bullet. Nevertheless, I'm now recommending 1-10 twist barrels because of the controversy of the 40 grain bullets. and there are heavier bullets available.
I have heard that not all will. Some of the information I have, is from a site I trust knows what they are talking about. http://www.rugerhunting.com/204_ammo.php
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on December 29, 2008, 07:02 PM:
thanks to all for clarification. i havent killed enogh coyotes with it yet to decide what i want to shoot out of it. thought i would ask before i kept trying bullets.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on December 29, 2008, 09:39 PM:
I really don't like the BC of the 35 grain Bergers.When I first got my .204 ruger Berger listed the BC for the 35's at .191 but now I see they list the BC at .184.Which is not good.At the speeds I am running them (3850-3900 fps)They are great out to 250-300 yards(about 400 ft lbs @ 300 yrds) but much past that they really lose energy quickly.
That's one of the reasons I have been messing with the 17's(thanks to DAA)those damn 30 grain kindler golds are amazing.With the .270 BC they have, they should have the same energy(400 ft lbs)at almost 400 yrds while running about the same speed(3900 fps)as my 204 ruger does at 300 yrds.FWIW
Good Hunting Chad
[ December 29, 2008, 09:43 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on December 30, 2008, 12:12 PM:
Chad,
Thanks for the info, I'm going to build a fur rifle sometime and I have been leaning more and more towards a 17 something. I'm going to shoot this 204 for awhile though. I kind of like the idea of DAA's 20-250 due to it's flat trajectory but he says that sometimes its not too fur friendly.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 30, 2008, 12:34 PM:
JeremyKS
In my opinion, there are times when a seventeen isn't fur friendly. As the man said, it's surgical precision that results in least damage.
If you have a facing shot, for instance, a seventeen with most common bullets can sever the spine and blow a huge hole through the shoulder blades. Especially if you, or he is in an elevated position.
I suppose any garden variety 17 caliber can be counted on to do the least damage most of the time, but nothing is foolproof.
Those Kindler 30 grain bullets sound like a hot ticket?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on December 30, 2008, 01:04 PM:
Jeremy,
I think what amazes me the most about the Kindlers,is running the numbers on a Ballistic calculator.
The 30 grain Kindlers(BC .270) at 3900 fps have almost the identical trajectory as a 220 Swift with the Nosler Ballistic tips(BC .267) at 3850 fps...Bullet drop is the same or less,wind drift is the same or less(10 mph)Velocity is the same or more,the Swift definitely beats it in the Energy Department so the further out the coyote is the more advantage the swift has.But for a 0- 400 yrd fur gun the .17 with the 30 grain Kindlers would be a tough one to beat....IMO
Even the Sectional Densities are fairly close..
220 Swift=.157
17 caliber=.145
Good Hunting Chad
[ December 30, 2008, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 30, 2008, 01:35 PM:
Yes, interesting stuff. Now, the question is, is a 17 Remington enough gun, or is a "Predator" that much better. Sure, more is better, but I like to take a real close look at the advantage before I trouble with case forming, expensive dies, custom rig, etc. Sometimes, these exotic chamberings don't blow my skirt up, anymore, too much work. What seems to be the best twist, and is there a 33 gr. Kindler in the works, possibly?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on December 30, 2008, 01:53 PM:
I think the 30 Kindlers would do just fine in a .17 Remington "if" you have a 1/9 twist to stabilize them.My 17 Remington is a 1/10 twist so I am going to get a .17 Tactical barrel(necked down 20 Tactical)so if I feel so inclined I could get the 20 Tac and not be into to much expense.You would probably get 3800 fps out of the 17 Remington.I think DAA said the 17 Tactical is right in between the Remington and the Predator so probably 150 fps difference in the three of them.
17 Remington-3750-3800 fps
17 Tactical-3900-3950 fps
17 Predator-4000-4100 fps
I think I would be totally content with my .17 Remington and 25 grain Bergers if I knew "all" of my shots were between 0-200 yrds but for those that stop between 200-350 yrds it would be nice to have more smack.Ah hell who am I kidding I just want a new toy...lol
Good Hunting Chad
[ December 30, 2008, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 30, 2008, 03:40 PM:
The 17 Rem with a 1-9" shooting 30 gr. Golds works just fine on coyotes out to 350 yds. maybe more .. I shot 3 coyotes this week with my factory rem. 700. it worked ..
I used the 25 gr. bullets years ago and they worked good on the coyotes, but the 30 gr. are a much better choice..You don't need tobe an expert marksman with a 17 cal. just put the bullet in the same place you would from a larger cal. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on December 30, 2008, 05:18 PM:
Patterson - No runners with the 45's, just quite a few spinners. Unless, I missed completely, those kept running. I was 1.5" high at 150 and back to zero at 300.
For flat out knock down, no twitching, no tail wagging, just near-instant death, the 32 vmax did the best job. I just had a bigger mess with coyotes over 200 yards, but those are rare shots in my calling areas.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on December 30, 2008, 05:37 PM:
quote:
Now, the question is, is a 17 Remington enough gun...
Yes.
quote:
...or is a "Predator" that much better.
Yes.
- DAA
Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on January 04, 2009, 07:54 PM:
In the 204 Ruger and a 20-222 I had, I've only used 35gr Bergers. In the 204 Ruger, I use mostly 28 grs of H4895 and have been playing with Benchmark, light loaded to around 3600 fps. I generally don't have to shoot very far anyways.
Andy,
I've never shot the 39gr bullets without the polymer tips but I have shot lot's of Sierra seconds in .224, shot the Blitzkings without the tips and they shot great at 100 yards. I've never killed any coyotes with them though. That is a huge freaking hollow point.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 04, 2009, 09:08 PM:
Gotta remember, that plastic tip is acting like a piston, it actually accelerates the big hollowpoint opening up.
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