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Author
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Topic: Ackely Vs Middlestat
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albert
Knows what it's all about
Member # 98
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posted February 23, 2009 07:39 AM
I was wondering what are the pros and cons of a 22-250 Ack. vs 22 middlestead. Is there much difference in velocity? I plan on shooting 55 grain bullets.
I am leaning towards the Middlestead simply because I know where I can get a reamer and I like lapua brass.
the 22 middlestead is a 243 necked down with the front shoulder pushed back to lenghten the neck and steepen the shoulder.
Any favorite powders?
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for what it's worth, eh!
Posts: 195 | From: Parkland, saskatchewan, canada | Registered: Feb 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 23, 2009 03:41 PM
Well, you probably know what I'm going to say? I have a practical side and a 243 case necked down to .224 is in the realm of diminishing returns, as far as I'm concerned. It amounts to gunsmith welfare, if you do even a modest amount of shooting, predators and 'chucks, etc.
I also believe that, at the operating pressures obtainable with the shoulder configuration, a 55 grain bullet is on the light side and won't show a heck of a lot of improvement versus a 220Swift. A heavier bullet, perhaps 60 to 70 grains is where you will see an advantage, in my opinion.
Therer are some speed freaks out there, don't be afraid to weigh in....
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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Posts: 31478 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted February 23, 2009 05:21 PM
Lapua brass is the biggest advantage I see in favor of the Middlestead. That .243 brass is really nice stuff. Very consistent, and very strong - the primer pockets hold up to a lot of abuse. And of course, a bit more capacity. Which, for a predator rifle, never hurts.
No flies on the .22-250AI either though.
If I were contemplating the two, I'd be real tempted just to do a straight up .22-243, just for the sake of being easier to form, not needing to be fireformed and having even a bit more capacity still.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted February 24, 2009 09:50 AM
"A heavier bullet, perhaps 60 to 70 grains is where you will see an advantage, in my opinion."
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That is true, but personally I would stick with the .243, or maybe a .243 "improved" if I wanted to shoot 70 grain bullets. You could push a 70 grainer down a 6mm bore at a faster velocity than you can out of a .224 bore. Why? A little thing called pressure.
[ February 24, 2009, 09:51 AM: Message edited by: Rich ]
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 24, 2009 11:11 AM
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Sometimes, for some peope, there doesn't seem to be a practical limit on what you can do with a certain bore size? My opinion is that if you need more than what a 22-250Ackley is capable of....maybe it's time to start shooting a 6mm something or other?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31478 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted February 24, 2009 03:31 PM
Leonard,
As you probably know, P.O. Ackley proved a long time ago that you can only drive a bullet down a specific bore diameter just so fast, no matter what cartridge case you choose. If you are determined to shoot a given bullet weight any faster, than you must go to a larger diameter bore. For a coyote rifle, the various 6mm's are almost perfect. I say this even though I have been shooting .257 Ackley and .25-06 rifles for many years now. I drive 85 grain spitzer boat tails at over 3600 FPS, and I think you are driving 100 grainers at that speed out of your .25-06 A.I. Now THAT is coyote medicine that is mighty hard to scoff at.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted February 24, 2009 03:48 PM
For me speed is only part of it.B.C plays a big part too especially for a long range rifle.
Example:
.243 winchester with a 66 grain Berger with a B.C of .277 running 3600 fps.
Compared to a .22-243 with a 64 grain Berger with a B.C .294 running 3600 fps.
Which is flatter shooting with less wind drift?
The .243 will have slightly more energy from 0-200 yards then past that the .22-243 has the edge.
When comparing Grain for Grain with comparable bullets the smaller caliber usually has the Higher B.C...
If you compare a bullets B.C to B.C (also in comparable bullets) the Bigger caliber will have a heavier bullet which will give it more energy,but the smaller can make up some of that energy with a higher velocity...
Depends on what you're after really, lots of energy equals Fur damage.But lots of energy also equals one very dead coyote.lol
Good Hunting Chad
[ February 24, 2009, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted February 24, 2009 05:56 PM
True. But... Once you move far enough in the direction of heavy for caliber (high BC) bullets, the twist requirements become a factor. With the really high BC for caliber bullets (any caliber), you have to use so much twist, that the bullets really won't tolerate too much velocity - even if you have the boiler room available to generate it. I'm talking the 75-80 gr. class, in .224's. Having played with and worn out some fast twist barrels, shooting heavy .22 caliber bullets, I have to say that I personally just don't have any use for them whatsoever, in coyote hunting.
But then, neither do I have any use for a real "long range" rifle, for coyote hunting.
Flat (FLAT!!) trajectory out to 400 yards with sufficient energy to get the job done and a minimum of recoil is what I like, for coyote hunting.
That's just me and my hunting/shooting style though. Different strokes for different folks. Whatever solves your problems, or you just like because you like, all the same to me...
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
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posted February 24, 2009 06:44 PM
quote:
Flat (FLAT!!) trajectory out to 400 yards with sufficient energy to get the job done and a minimum of recoil is what I like, for coyote hunting.
Me too.
Randy
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted February 24, 2009 06:50 PM
Dave,
I agree with that as far as bullet weight goes.I think max for me in a fast .22 caliber would be a 65 grain bullet.And I also agree about the long range shooting.400 yards for coyotes would definitely be my max probably more like 300 or so actually for calling.
Good Hunting Chad
[ February 24, 2009, 06:52 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 24, 2009 09:40 PM
Well, shit. Looks like we're all on the same page? Seriously, 400 yards is all I care about and I just happen to use .224 65 grain bullets.
Good hunting. LB
edit: Rich, yes I use that rifle in Nevada a couple times a year, but remember, it's a truck gun and weighs 21 pounds.
[ February 24, 2009, 09:43 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31478 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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sparkyibewlocal440
Knows what it's all about
Member # 397
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posted February 25, 2009 10:08 PM
Albert,
I've been using my .22-243 Midd. for 4 years now. I Use Lapua brass along with H4350 powder with 55 grain Ballistic tips and I'm getting 3800 fps with a 24" barrel and that's maxed out, pressure wise. I'm not knocking it, it does a fine job on Coyotes. However,I was hoping for more velocity when I had it built. It's right there with the Swift but without the case stretching. It has a nice 30 degree shoulder,good looking round.
Going with a straight .243 Win. will give you 4000 fps with 55 grain bullets. That seems to make allot better since than the .224 caliber.
That will be the caliber of choice when it's time to re barrel for me, but I'll be taking it a step further,as an improved version.
Posts: 170 | From: So. Cal | Registered: Sep 2004
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 26, 2009 01:02 AM
I just scrounged around and found a couple tapes from my 22-250 Ackley. I don't have any more 65 Bergers and the Starkes apparently didn't get picked up very well by the sky screens because there is only one set of numbers, and you can see quite a bit of variation in velocity? I don't remember the exact Starke load, probably within a couple tenths under the Berger? The Berger standard load is/was H414, 44.0 grains and was used as a control, in this example in which the objective was developing a Starke load. But, it may have been a cold day because presently, both bullets routinely average well over 3900fps? This was shot through my Ohler with four foot spacing, approx. ten feet from the muzzle.
This is the reason why I don't feel inadequate with this chamber in this barrel when others, (like Gary) may be getting 3800fps, with a 55 grain bullet.
Good hunting. LB
[ February 26, 2009, 01:31 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31478 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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sparkyibewlocal440
Knows what it's all about
Member # 397
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posted February 26, 2009 05:13 AM
Leonard, that's a man size rifle there.
Those are impressive numbers,what is the length of the barrel? Bullet entrance,that bit of blood on the hind end,did you shoot it in the ass,Texas style?
Posts: 170 | From: So. Cal | Registered: Sep 2004
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 26, 2009 11:23 AM
Yeah, I noticed that, too? Don't know, don't remember? It was a routine kill, but I am sure he wasn't hit anywhere in that vicinity where the red shows?
That rig usually drills them right through the boiler room, very little damage, they just fall over and quiver.
Yes, it is not your typical daylight stand rifle, that's a standard McMillan benchrest stock and a Hart heavy varmint contour, I think it's 28½"?
Good hunting. LB
edit: I do remember, now that you mention it. It was a facing shot, maybe a piece of the bullet traveled the length, or something?
[ February 26, 2009, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31478 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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albert
Knows what it's all about
Member # 98
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posted March 06, 2009 07:58 PM
Thanks for the replies.
It seems that it would be the same amount of work for either the middlestat or the ackley. I friend of mine who is a very serious coyote man is a big fan of the middlestat. He feels that the standard 22-250 is under powered.
He has a couple middlestats in various twists.
I do tend to agree that if i want to shoot heavier bullets i will also go up in calibre.
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for what it's worth, eh!
Posts: 195 | From: Parkland, saskatchewan, canada | Registered: Feb 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 06, 2009 09:46 PM
How's your season going, Albert? Or does the new girl friend keep you in town most of the time? Any wolves?
Anyway, I agree with the opinion that a standard 22-250Rem. is not enough for what I do. It's a good caliber, but I like a bit more.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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sparkyibewlocal440
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Member # 397
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posted March 07, 2009 07:04 AM
Albert,
Not that big of a deal to fire form the cases. I did it using cream of wheat and 9 grains of Hodgdons "Clays" shotgun powder.That took me 3 hours to shoot 100 pieces of brass. Had to clean the chamber/neck area every 5 firings and allowed some cooling because the barrel does get hot if you get carried away. Re size them and they are ready to go. I'd be happy to give you all the details if you'd like.
Gary
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 07, 2009 04:34 PM
If anybody has an interest, this is how I fireform cases in my garage. This is a piece of rolled up carpet inside the tube. The chamber hangs from an overhead water pipe and can be slid out of the way. At the top is a piece of ¼" steel plate. It's fairly quiet so as not to scare the neighbors. Just stick the muzzle in the hole at the bottom and pull the trigger.
I use like Gary described, whatever fast powder I happen to have on hand and put a square of newsprint rolled into a ball inserted into the neck.
Good hunting. LB
[ March 07, 2009, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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