This is topic Reloading blunder in forum Firearms forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by furhvstr (Member # 1389) on September 10, 2009, 09:10 PM:
A couple of months ago I got all energetic and prepared a bunch of brass for the fall and have been waiting on powder to finish up.
Pulled the stuff out today and this is what I found. All the 223 that is corroded has been primed and the rest not. The stuff that was wrapped with the blue towels is fine along with the block of 25-06 Ak. that was uncovered.
Must have been from the powder stored in the cabinet????
Because the 223 is primed and the rest is not???
All cartridges went through identical prep including polishing in the tumbler.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 10, 2009, 09:37 PM:
Maybe there was some sort of fabric softener in the towel?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on September 11, 2009, 04:08 AM:
Beats me? Leonard's guess is better than anything I can come up with.
It's not anything to do with being primed vs. unprimed though.
- DAA
Posted by skoal (Member # 1492) on September 11, 2009, 07:50 AM:
Is that reloading area near a laundry room?
Mine is and there can be alot of moisture in the air. Living in Az. its not an issue,but its possible the blue garge rags do a better job of keeping out the h2o in the air.
Posted by RagnCajn (Member # 879) on September 11, 2009, 08:19 AM:
What brand is the tarnished stuff and is it same lot?
A long shot but maybe something in the material composition.
Just grasping.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 11, 2009, 01:35 PM:
My compliments on the well organized shelves, BTW.
I didn't see any Sweet'S 7.62, but, I can tell you, having worked around ammonia refrigeration equipment once or twice, that it is extremely corrosive to copper and brass.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by furhvstr (Member # 1389) on September 11, 2009, 04:42 PM:
Yes and what's in gun powder? Ammonia correct?
Notice the labels on the powder are turning yellow.
Any part of the brass exposed directly to the air in that cabinet has turned. In fact when you lift one of those 223 brass out of the block it is not nearly as discolored down low as the exposed upper section.
It is definately not mold. Oxidation is what I would call it. It looks just like when you find a shell out in the woods someone dropped ten years previous only this happened in a couple months.
I keep brass and ammo lying around on that bench year round and have never had a problem so I would exclude humidity.
The laundry room is inside the house.
The jug on the right is from the lower cabinet and the one on the left is from the suspect cabinet.
The oxidation polishes right off with some brasso. I just don't have anything to look inside with.
The IMR cans are beginning to rust.
[ September 12, 2009, 04:35 AM: Message edited by: furhvstr ]
Posted by Ridge Runner (Member # 3477) on September 11, 2009, 04:48 PM:
ammonia? gimme a break, its nitrocellulose.
primed cases were LUBED, resized and primed. the lube wasn't cleaned off in the tumbler.
Of course bare metal of a can that was heated to solder/weld is gonna rust after exposed to air, its a normal process called oxidation.
RR
[ September 11, 2009, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: Ridge Runner ]
Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on September 11, 2009, 04:59 PM:
I think its a chemical reaction caused by the adhesive used to make the wood cabinet parts, press board, particle board, etc. The stuff comes from any part that is not fully covered with paint or other finish, like the hinge pockets. Only a controlled test will tell.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 11, 2009, 09:22 PM:
I don't recall the exact composition of smokeless powder, but the smell of it is a solvent/ether type of smell, unless it has degraded and then it has as acidic type of odor, but that takes years to decompose, from what I understand?
I keep everything in a locked room, primed and unprimed brass in loading blocks and plastic boxes and more powder than what I see in your photos, above. But, I never leave them uncapped, aware that the vapors can escape although I never considered those vapors to be harmful except to breathing and affecting the chemical composition of the powder, itself. I don't know, but I don't believe single base smokeless gunpowder has ammnonia in it? Another thing that corrodes brass is mercury and flux vapors used in soldering. The oxidation on the IMR cans could be caused by the same substance that attacked the cases.
But, Mercer. Are you telling us that all this brass was confined in that cabinet, some wrapped in rags and some not? That what we can see in the photo is all you had in there, books, powder, die boxes, rags and cartridge brass? Nothing else?
quote:
The jug on the right is from the lower cabinet and the one on the right is from the suspect cabinet.
So, this is another variable, two different cabinets?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by furhvstr (Member # 1389) on September 12, 2009, 04:49 AM:
Yes, I geuss I didn't make that too clear originally. I stored the brass in the cabinet along with everyting you see in the cabinet and nothing else. What I can't figure out is that some of the 223 was wrapped in a towel and some was in blocks and it all oxidized. This might indicate something being different before the stuff went into the cabinet but that would mean a mistake on my part in the prep stage on two loads of brass because I only run 100-150 rds at a time through my tumblers (cleaning tumbler and polishing) and there are 300 223's.
I thought there was ammonia in powder but there's not. There are oxidizers and acids though.
All my powder in the other cabinets is fine but the stuff in this cabinet the labels are all turing yellow. The other cabinets are plain wood.
[ September 12, 2009, 04:59 AM: Message edited by: furhvstr ]
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on September 12, 2009, 07:15 AM:
Are you sure that there wasn't something on the towel? If it was in the same cabinet that turned everything blue, maybe someone had used the towel to clean up something when you weren't looking.
Posted by Ridge Runner (Member # 3477) on September 12, 2009, 07:50 AM:
cleaning and polishing in separate tumblers? what ya using for media in each?
RR
Posted by furhvstr (Member # 1389) on September 12, 2009, 10:30 AM:
Tumbler #1, Untreated corn cob in the cleaning tumbler with a cap full of white gas in each load.
Tumbler #2, Untreated corn cob with liquid brass polish added in each load for polishing.
Same sytem for twenty years or so and never any problems.
Has to have something to do with the powder stored in the cabinet.
Set up a test in the cabinet with several pieces of brass to try and figure it out.
Will see in a few weeks.
[ September 12, 2009, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: furhvstr ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 12, 2009, 11:22 AM:
I really don't understand the reasons for a two part cleaning and polishing? I used crushed walnut once, and added some polish once, in a span of more than forty years, but my brass never gets dirty enough to use anything more than corn cob and I just vari the amount of time from overnight to three days, or so?
But anyway, the media seems unlikely (to me) no matter the brand?
Picking your brain a little more, occupation wise, are you farming? Fertilizer is highly corrosive. We have all heard that ammonium nitrate is potential bomb material.
Are you a welder? Seems like I remember you saying that you make your own cages? Galvaneal and galvanize when welded, besides being difficult to weld, produces fumes. Those fumes are toxic and corrosive.
I can't get it out of my head, that the cases look exactly like ammonia vapor contamination. Ammonia vapor, in exactly the right concentration 30%, something like that? is explosive. WD40 can eat some metals, and it's never to be used around primers because it will make the mixture inert......
That's it, I'm out of ideas?
Good hunting. LB
[ September 12, 2009, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on September 12, 2009, 01:02 PM:
quote:
Has to have something to do with the powder stored in the cabinet.
No, I really don't think it does. Not that I do know what it is, but I'm certain it has absolutely nothing to do with either the cases being primed, or there being powder in the same cabinet.
quote:
Tumbler #2, Untreated corn cob with liquid brass polish added in each load for polishing.
That liquid brass polish, what are the ingredients? The stuff I've got, has phosphoric acid in it... That stuff I have, if I don't rinse it all off, will do exactly what you've got there.
- DAA
Edited to correct the ingredient - not amonia, phosphoric acid. Had amonia on the brain I guess...
[ September 12, 2009, 01:04 PM: Message edited by: DAA ]
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on September 12, 2009, 04:10 PM:
Just a thought, but Im trying to use logic, which of course my wife would say is a futile exercise:)
If only the brass that was primed, corroded, maybe it was something on your hands, that over time, reacted with the case lube? Unless you handled all the brass at the same time when storing.
I only handle and prime what Im going to load for the evening, and when finished loading, I use a cotton cloth and twist each round between my fingers and the cloth to remove any residule lube....Ive never had a loaded round do that, but have seen some exhibit the same pattern of corrosion....odd indeed.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on September 12, 2009, 04:30 PM:
Just a guess but don't books ommit some type of acid? Has the brass been fired in a AR? Maybe forgot to clean some or all and they contammenated the others.. When i had my AR i noticed the brass had some of a powder residue on them and i had stored them in a zip-lock bag and after a year looked like the brass in the pic., also by handleing the brass with youre hands will leave a chemical on it to cause it to do the same in pic..I had a new box of 17 rem loads that i test fired dureing the summer and when done just put them back in the box with the rest of the ammo that was'nt fired and the sweat from my hands caused a simular problem and it also contamenated the unfired cases..
Posted by furhvstr (Member # 1389) on September 13, 2009, 12:55 PM:
So TWO days ago I set some fresh cases in my problem cabinet.
First view is a wide shot showing both cabinets.
The cabinet on the left is where I store much of my loaded ammo. The one on the right is where I am having trouble.
This is a pic of the left cabinet. The brass upper right is the identical to the brass I put in the right cabinet and was set out at the same time. The fireball cases are new never fired. The 6 BR (lower right) was loaded 9 years ago and has been in that cabinet for four years.
This is what the brass looks like after just two days.
There is definately a light-medium chemical odor when you first open the cabinet.
I added the three brass on the right just for contrast for the picture.
[ September 13, 2009, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: furhvstr ]
Posted by Ridge Runner (Member # 3477) on September 13, 2009, 02:38 PM:
whats the stain under and around the can of 4198?
RR
Posted by furhvstr (Member # 1389) on September 13, 2009, 03:43 PM:
Rust from the cans as noted earlier in the post.
Posted by Ridge Runner (Member # 3477) on September 13, 2009, 04:36 PM:
doesn't make sense, it has to be something in the cabinet, I'd remove something every 2 days and see what stops corroding the brass. if you've got an acidic chemical smell it could be bad powder. with that much rust something is going on, I've got cans out in a room in my garage that I've had 20 years and they're not rusted that bad.
RR
[ September 13, 2009, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: Ridge Runner ]
Posted by sparkyibewlocal440 (Member # 397) on September 13, 2009, 04:58 PM:
A light medium chemical odor. Sounds like the smell of gun powder to me. Powder kept cool,dry,out of sun and capped is suppose to last indefinitely. Powder gone bad has a rotten smell to it. Take the powder out of the cabinet, wipe it out real good with a cleaner and try setting some brass in there again and see what happens. I'd do a "smell test" of your powders too, starting with that can that's rusting. Give Hodgdon a call and see what they say.
Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on September 13, 2009, 10:28 PM:
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 13, 2009, 10:57 PM:
I thought it unlikely that the powder could be responsible, BUT. Assuming there is nothing but dies in those die boxes, unlikely or not, the powder seems suspect and the first ones to look at would be the IMR cans, especially the one showing rust.
I say that because the plastic bottles are practically inert, except for the caps and they are in an upright position so it would be hard to contaminate them. I think the sniff test should tell you something. Then look at it.
Bad powder don't look right. I have never seen bad powder, other than black and white pictures in loading manuals. But you know what good powder looks like, so take it from there.
I'd say the chances are good that you bought bad powder, to begin with, because as Gary said, this stuff has an almost indefinite shelf life, numbering in decades. You know, surplus Bc2, 4831 etc. from WWII, I used a lot of it from Hodgdons at least into the 80's. If that's the problem, you are one unlucky dude!
Good hunting. LB
[ September 13, 2009, 10:58 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by furhvstr (Member # 1389) on September 21, 2009, 06:51 AM:
Sooooo,
Here is a pic of the brass in the cabinet after 5 days with all the powder removed:
And here is a pic of the two tubs I seperated the powder into and added a few pieces of virgin brass and left closed for the same amount of time.
Here is the can that I am assuming has caused the problem. No, the powder has never been on a trip to the moon or a nuclear test site or any other scenario. It is simply just another can of powder sitting on a shelf next to a bunch of other powders for many years like most of us all have at home somewhere. When I opened it a very fine dust or "smoke" rose up and out and the entire contents had rust throughout. I could not detect any strange odors but that does'nt mean that there weren't any as I have a very cold nose.
I have returned all the IMR powders excluding this one to the tub with another virgin brass to make sure the problem has been removed. Will let you know.
Take Care, ML.
[ September 21, 2009, 07:05 AM: Message edited by: furhvstr ]
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on September 21, 2009, 07:41 AM:
I don't know squat about reloading or powders but I do know a bit about 'cans'. Single Use Seamless Aluminum Beverage Containers or as they're commonly called; 'Beer Cans'. Beer & Soda cans have a thin layer of laquer on the inside to prevent the product from reacting with the metal that the can is made from. I'm guessing that powder cans also have this inside coating. The manufacturing process, while very good, does on occasion allow a defect in the form of a void to slip thru. What you MAY have is a can that has inside metal exposure, that your powder has reacted to.
Posted by sparkyibewlocal440 (Member # 397) on September 21, 2009, 10:51 AM:
Wow, that shit looks Fucked up!
Posted by furhvstr (Member # 1389) on October 13, 2009, 09:27 PM:
Sooo, not wanting to throw away 300 rds of fully prepped and primed .223 brass. Being too lazy to de-cap and hand polish the oxidation off of them and having more faith in the sturdiness of modern primers than some people I decided to put them back in the tumbler to get the roughness off and load up twenty rds to check for missfires and such.
All went well at the range. All twenty went down range with no problems and I nearly shot the best group of my life with a sporting rifle. A fully custom rig this .223 is one of the better shooting guns in my safe but even I was a little surprised when the first four went in the same hole. As could be expected I sent the fifth out and fouled it up.
Here is a pic of the group and the ugly rounds that I wil be shooting this year.
Take care, ML
Posted by furhvstr (Member # 1389) on October 14, 2009, 02:38 PM:
So a phone call to Hodgdon resulted in the following answers to the thread related Q's. I will try to relay them to the best of my ability/memory.
The powder is now in plastic primarily as a result of the purchase of Dupont by Hodgden in 2003. It was far easier for them to simply use what their factories already had in place. Other minor reasons were, cost, cans rusting in storage BEFORE having powder in them, screen printing the cans and such. IT HAD ABSOLUTLY NOTHING to do with ANY reactions from the powder being in steel. Steel has been used for many many years.
Now, as for the BAD powder. Yes, it was and had in fact gone BAD. ALL powder goes BAD at some point wether it be ten or sixty years and can at some point actually self ignite. Ball powders being the most stable.
At this point the guy got to using some big words and was talking pretty fast but the jist of it was as follows: Making smokeless powder requires nitrating the cellulose with sulfuric and nitric acids. These are then rinsed away but because they cannot be rinsed away completely buffers are added. Over time the buffers begin to wear out and the powder begins to oxidize. As it oxidizes it develops a dust (rust) on each individual kernel and developes an odor. An odor which smells like ammonia. These nitric acid vapors become increasingly stronger and will oxidize and rust anything around it and can potentially self ignite. (This could possibly explain an old timers garage nearly burning down years ago here in town when a five lb can of old military powder seamingly self ignited.)
ML
[ October 14, 2009, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: furhvstr ]
Posted by sparkyibewlocal440 (Member # 397) on October 19, 2009, 06:51 PM:
Thanks for the follow up.
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on October 25, 2009, 06:16 PM:
I've been following this thread and found it interesting..Well I got ambitious this afternoon and resized/prepped/primed 50 cases today,here's what I do..
I wrap them in a towel and place them in a tupperware type container until I get around to powder charging the cases..
I store them in the garage sometimes for several months and haven't had a problem so far..
[ October 25, 2009, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]
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