This is topic Moly in forum Firearms forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on October 25, 2009, 04:00 PM:
Just curious, Does anyone still use moly on their hunting bullets?
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on October 25, 2009, 05:49 PM:
Tim, I'm using it on my 243AI and about all I can say is I don't think I need a cleaning rod anymore. Round count is over 100 for sure and still shooting well.
But then again my 22-250 is over 50 and still going strong with no moly.
Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on October 25, 2009, 07:12 PM:
I don't Moly anything currently.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 25, 2009, 08:30 PM:
Curious. For many years, I was proud of the fact that I had never shot a moly bullet. Right now, I am using some moly bullets in my little Model 600. (just to use them up) I never thought I'd see the day. I don't think the barrel knows the difference though? A fad come and gone, as far as I can see?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Lungbuster (Member # 630) on October 25, 2009, 08:44 PM:
I got 4 free boxes of 58gr V-max's for my son's 243. They shoot well, can't really tell the difference between them and regular bullets.
He'll keep shooting them untill there gone since the price was right.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 26, 2009, 04:25 AM:
No moly. I do have two rifles that I use Danzac (tungsten disulfide?) in though.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 26, 2009, 12:22 PM:
Okay, Dave. What does it do and why are you using it in just two rifles, if it does something good? Enlighten me, I know nothing about it. Is it also a mineral dietary supplement?
Good hunting. LB
edit: well, I was thinking of titanium, and I'm wrong anyway. Apparently it's used in batteries and some friction applications, just like Moly?
[ October 26, 2009, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 26, 2009, 01:18 PM:
Leonard, I'm using it in just two rifles, for two different, very specific reasons. And that's the only time I'd ever use it, would be in trying to solve a specific problem or achieve a specific benefit. I do NOT see it as a general cure all for anythying.
One barrel I'm using it in is a Douglas blued blank chambered in .22BR. It's a p-dog rig, working load pushing the Danzac coated 40 gr. Vmax to 4050 fps. When I started working with this barrel, I had already tried and rejected moly a few years earlier. But, I was interested in extending cleaning interval on a hot stepping p-dog rig, if I could. And, this particular barrel was (is) prone to copper fouling. So, I tried Danzac in it. Nothing miraculous, but it DID extend the cleaning interval by a decent amount. And, unlike moly, all the Danzac comes out with a normal cleaning. So I don't get the layering I saw with moly. I can typically run about 150 rounds through it before I start missing p-dogs that I don't think I should be missing. Not bad for a chromo barrel pushing soft jacketed Vmax at over 4,000 fps for long strings.
The other barrel I'm using it in, is a Lilja 3 groove chambered in .22-250AI. This turned out to be a "slow" barrel. Just couldn't get the velocity up to where I thought it should be. In an effort to eek some more fps out of it, I gave the Danzac a try. It helped, but not much. Good for about another 50 fps using the same bullet and powder as naked. Not really worth the trouble - but, that load also just happened to be the most accurate tested. So, what the heck, I just went ahead and used the Danzac load for that barrel. Best velocity and best accuracy, why not, I figure? I suspect it was simply a matter of that little 50 fps nudging the barrel into "the node". Later in life it became pretty well dedicated to shooting 'chucks, and never gets cleaned on a trip, and the Danzac has proven to be a small bonus in that regard as well.
So, there you have it. Nothing scientific. Just a couple of barrels I was working with, where Danzac seems to have helped more than hurt, so I continue to use it in them.
I "just say NO" to moly, though. Evil shit...
- DAA
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on October 26, 2009, 04:01 PM:
Dave, what makes moly so evil?
I've read it's hard on chrome moly barrels when wet but anything else?
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 26, 2009, 07:06 PM:
Tom, what I saw first hand, that I did not like about moly, was the "layering" of fouling it created in my barrels. All stainless, by the way. With a borescope, cleaning and looking, cleaning and looking, I found that there would be a layer of moly, then a layer of fouling, a layer of moly, a layer of fouling. Multiple layers, before getting back to clean barrel steel. In my barrels, the fouling was mostly powder fouling, not much copper. But, these barrels didn't copper foul with naked bullets, either. The layers weren't even from breech to muzzle, either.
I can't say that I experienced any actual damage or problems from it. But, I was concerned about the powder fouling getting ironed and "burned in". I had previous experience with what I called "hard powder fouling" in a hot rod wildcat with naked bullets. It took an awful lot of cleaning effort to stay ahead of that hard carbon fouling in that thing. Especially the "carbon ring" just ahead of the throat, which was a real accuracy killer if allowed to exist. I was just afraid that the moly layering effect, might lead to the same type of issue. But, like I say, I never actually got the point of having any real problems with it. Just decided it was a variable and potential headache I could live without.
Now, all that said... Two of the 'smiths that I have used, both big name, world record rifle builders, told me they thought moly was the Devil. And Fred Sinclair, at about the same time I was deciding to ditch the moly, published some stuff about sectioning stainless match barrels that had been used with moly, and finding the same kind of layering I had seen, only he found pitting in the steel when he finally got all the layers cleaned out. That was when Sinclair International quit selling both moly and Danzac.
I make no claim to actually knowing a dang thing about any of this though. You just have to use what works for you, and not worry too much about what folks say. Especially us folks on the internet, LOL!
- DAA
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on October 26, 2009, 09:30 PM:
Dang my luck! I knew I should have responded after I read Dave's first post this morning.
I'm getting ready to do some reloading for my 17 Remington. My last 17 rem I used Moly in, but I don't on this one. And my new one has a tight neck, I have to trim the necks before loading the brass. As I was pulling out my used brass for cleaning, I found about 150 loaded rounds of 17 Rem with Moly coated bullets, that I can't use due to the neck diameter. I was hoping to find someone who would like to trade those loaded rounds for some virgin brass.
I never did have a problem with the Moly, and it did seem to keep my cleaning down to a lot less than most other 17 shooters needed. I just gave up on it, as the extra 50 fps I got, didn't seem to matter to the coyotes, and I got tired of catching hell for the mess I made coating the bullets in the clothes dryer.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on October 26, 2009, 09:45 PM:
Thanks Dave, I guess I just have to piss on the electric fence sometimes.
I dunno, got a few friends who use it and even shipped a Tubbs 2000 back to Moly central for another friend of mine who like David Tubbs swears by it. This particular gun was sent to several gun writers for destruction, then sent back to McMillan for exam and back to my friend. He's shot nothing but moly through it and it still shoots unreal.
Anyway, I'll blast away with this barrel and see what happens. The next barrel will be stainless and time will tell if it'll see moly or not.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on October 26, 2009, 09:49 PM:
"and I got tired of catching hell for the mess I made coating the bullets in the clothes dryer."
I ain't buying that one, Miss Joyce would've been inviting us to your funeral after the first time. That stuff is messy, even when you're careful with it.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 27, 2009, 07:16 AM:
Tom, guys like David Tubb and that fella that won the Super Shoot a few years ago using moly and without cleaning ONCE during the entire match, are why I say - use what works for ya and don't worry too much what other folks say!
And I really do NOT know much of anything at all about this. Just a few half baked opinions based on maybe six or seven thousand rounds total, down four barrels (two each w/moly and Danzac). Which, really, ain't squat.
- DAA
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on October 27, 2009, 01:51 PM:
http://www.huntmastersbbs.com/cgi/cgi-ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000219;p=4#000077
Krusty 
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on October 27, 2009, 06:24 PM:
Hey Krusty!! Where you been hiding?
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on October 27, 2009, 07:06 PM:
Thanks Krusty, I had forgotten about that thread. One thing I think I remember from just recently over on PMS, Jack said it only affects chrome moly barrels. I'm almost positive he said stainless barrels weren't affected but I could be wrong.
Anyway, after thinking about this I know I fire formed 250 cases and the first 50 were naked but at least the last 150 or maybe 200 were moly'd. Then I started working on a load and know I've shot over 50 while doing so and I've never ran a patch down the tube. That's a minumim of 200 rounds and the last time I shot it it shot 1/2" 3 shot groups (remember it's a mountain rifle contour).
I know some folks in AK that scoff at the moly + water = corrosive but I don't have a clue or a bore scope. I will see how the barrel life plays out and go from there.
Oh and the reason I am trying it is for added velocity not accuracy.
Posted by tawnoper (Member # 497) on October 27, 2009, 09:35 PM:
I've been shooting moly now for quite some time. I really don't see much benefit to it for a coyote rifle due to the limited shooting usually done throughout a hunt (at least in my case). I really started messing with it to sustain accuracy a bit longer in a couple of my ground squirrel rifles. Again, at least for me it does what I'm looking for..I can get quite a few more shots in with my Swift before the groups start opening up.
As for using it to achieve more velocity, I've always found using it creates less chamber pressure then the same load with a non coated bullet...it usually takes a bit more powder to match the velocity of a non coated bullet. FWIW.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 28, 2009, 06:36 AM:
"As for using it to achieve more velocity, I've always found using it creates less chamber pressure then the same load with a non coated bullet...it usually takes a bit more powder to match the velocity of a non coated bullet. FWIW."
That is exactly correct. That lessened initial pressure is the result of the bullet moving into the lands with less resistance (I "think"). That allows you to keep increasing powder and get more area under the pressure curve, which gets the extra velocity without higher peak pressure. Basically the same effect as long bullet jump or lots of freebore, they both get more area under the pressure curve too.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 28, 2009, 09:08 AM:
In theory.
I just want to see if I can kill a coyote with gray bullets. So far, it has been inconclusive. I'm beginning to think it's all hype? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Thanks for the contributions, thus far. LB
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on October 28, 2009, 10:09 AM:
The gray stuff makes em bounce off coyotes...
When I started this 243AI thing a few friends of mine were already into it. The moly was just part of their reccomendations as the main influence was shooting his at 800-1000 yards with the 105 A-max. Getting velocity and BC is part of the game, moly does render more velocity. Enough to matter on a hunting rifle? Not at all but I just have to try it.
Posted by tawnoper (Member # 497) on October 28, 2009, 11:04 AM:
Them gray bullets will kill coyotes...they just stain em a bit. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
When I first got into the "moly" thing I went a bit overboard and tossed a bunch of different bullets in the tumbler...therefore I still got quite a few left that make there way into coyotes sometimes.
Question on the velocity thing though... When using coated vs non coated bullets I personally never found to get much an increase in muzzle velocity, at least a very noticable one. It did allow me to use more powder and theoretically should allow higher velocity, but it seemed once it reached it's max pressure (what I deemed max) the velocities were pretty close. I always attributed it to the fact it takes "x" amount of pressure to push the bullet thru the bore at it's allowed max pressure...whatever that particular number is in that chamber. Didn't seem like the chamber would except a higher chamber pressure because the bullet was coated??
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 28, 2009, 12:03 PM:
That makes sense, to me.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 28, 2009, 01:57 PM:
It won't accept a higher peak pressure.
A lubricated bullet and or bore, "might" allow for a flatter pressure curve with more area under it though. Maybe.
Area under the pressure curve is the total amount of "work" or "energy" applied.
Think of it like reading the torque curve on a dyno printout. If the torque peaks at a low RPM and stays high across a large RPM range, you get more usable power than if the torque peaks early and then drops off quickly or doesn't peak until near redline.
Not a perfect analogy. Hell, now that I read it again, maybe not even a good one. But might help to explain it?
None of it matters though. Dead is dead.
- DAA
Posted by tawnoper (Member # 497) on October 28, 2009, 02:02 PM:
Thanks.
Too much for my little brain I guess...all I know for sure is them moly bullets get my fingers all dirty.
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on October 28, 2009, 03:30 PM:
So.............. I guess that I won't be needing Moly for my 30-30???
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 28, 2009, 04:03 PM:
On the contrary, that is the one rifle and cartridge combo that would benefit from moly. Why, moly can easily increase your velocity beyond the speed of sound and shrink your (haha) "groups" to less than the size of a basketball, at reasonable distances, like inside 25 yards.
It wouldn't have much effect on your ability to brain an unwary deer that happened to walk past your ambush site/bush, but make sure the (haha) "weapon" is unloaded, first! And, tee up, back on your heels, swinging for the fence like Barry Bonds.
If it breaks, you aren't out much.
Good hunting. LB
edit: it was such a tongue in cheek post on Handloaders Bench 2 or 3 years ago that got me banned! Those guys have no sense of humor!
[ October 28, 2009, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on October 28, 2009, 08:41 PM:
Leonard got banned somewhere??? Hard to belive!!!!
Sorry, I can't use my 30-30 as a bat to beat deer to death with. That would be considered a 'blunt instrument'. Not in the regs. The local Game Warden wasn't even too amused when I asked him if I could hunt Javelina with an Atlatlatl during the archery season.
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on November 02, 2009, 07:23 AM:
I shoot moly in every rifle I own. I'm sure I could get along without it, but I like it and have had zero problems in thousands of rounds. I never use a brush of any kind, just a couple wet patches of Butchs, a few dry ones, a couple wet ones of Kroil, a couple dry ones and go back to shooting. I have a couple of rifles that are getting up there in total rounds shot at over max loads and all is well with them. And gray bullets will kill coyotes! Not any better than any other color, but just as well.
Posted by Bofire (Member # 221) on November 02, 2009, 09:27 AM:
I got some by accident once, seemed to shoot just fine, btu I am one of those guys that has to clean his gun, need it or not. and I hated cleaning that black crap outta there.
I use nekked bullets now, and only have to clean out copper!
Carl
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