This is topic Can we have a serious discussion about shotguns for coyotes? in forum Firearms forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.


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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 26, 2011, 06:15 PM:
 
I was to the range recently, patterning my 835 for buckshot. I used a .775" choke and my pattern measured 21"WX28"H. Don't laugh. This was 41 pellet 3" shells #4Buck.

I think this is not satisfactory, but I am not sure if I need a turkey type tight choke, or just a bit tighter. The choices I have, on hand are .708", .742", .765", and the .775".

When they talk about tight turkey chokes, they generally mean used with maybe #4 or #6 shot, right? I wonder what these tight chokes do with buckshot? I'm thinking that I don't want too tight, and obviously, the .775", marked IC for lead and MOD for T & F steel, is not very encouraging since I can imagine a coyote being hit with no more than 8-10 pellets?

First of all, I really like #4Buck and I'm a tightwad on spending what they are asking for Dead Coyote, unless maybe during a contest. But, for casual killing coyotes with #4Buck, please point me in the right direction?

Somebody has already done this stuff. What's the story?

Then, (teaser) I will share with ya my second gunsmith project of the month.

Good hunting. LB

edit: patterning was at 35 long paces

[ December 26, 2011, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 26, 2011, 07:35 PM:
 
Leonard,
Nominal bore diameter of your 835 is .774 I think. Try your FULL choke tube with the #4 BUCK. If that don't suit you, take a look at the Kicks BuckKicker Xfull. http://www.kicks-ind.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=Kicks&Category_Code=Chokes
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on December 26, 2011, 08:04 PM:
 
I shot mine on paper just a couple weeks ago. I'm using a Dead Coyote choke and it's significantly tighter than yours, .660 I believe. I didn't measure or even concern myself with the overall size of the pattern. I am interested in how many pellets I get in a 10 inch circle around my point of aim.

Using similar 3" 4 buck ammo, I got 10 pellets inside that circle at 50 lasered yards and that's with a 21" barreled shotgun. At 40 yards that number was 18 and I didn't even bother to count at 30 yards. If I have a few or even several fliers that don't hit what I'm aiming at, who cares, as long as enough pellets DO hit what I'm aiming at and where I'm aiming them.

That little excersise gives me a little more confidence in breaking out the shotgun. I think I will still leave shots over 40 yards to those who are trying to sell snake oil.
 

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Posted by Joel Hughes (Member # 384) on December 26, 2011, 08:16 PM:
 
I have done a LOT of patterning with my SP10. My testing was done on my own handloads, from #4 BUCK to #F BUCK to #BB hevy shot and maybe even a few more Buck sizes. When I did my testing, I used 5 different chokes. I know it's not a 12 gauge, but I think my conclusions would be somewhat applicable to your situation Leonard. In my patterning with the above, I found that the tighter the choke, the better the pattern for me. I had been told that a more open choke might be better with large buckshot/hevyshot (due to possible deforming of the shot). That was not the case in my testing. Now, as anyone that knows a couple things about shotguns will tell you, not all shotguns pattern the same. So take my experience with my gun for what it's worth. My final conclusion with my particular SP10 was that it liked my TruLock XFull choke (with a recipe of 1 5/8 oz Hevyshot BB). If I were you, I'd go with the tightest choke you have and a few different rounds of #4 Buck (3" and 3.5") and see which ones pattern the tightest. I think your .775 is too open IMO. Rich recommended the Buckkicker Xfull which I've heard good stuff about but I have no experience with. You might call George Trulock also and ask him his opinion as well. That's what I did. He will even send you one and let you pattern with it and send it back if you don't like the results. (That was about 5 years ago though, so not sure if that deal is still available?) Another conclusion of mine is that, even with my 10 gauge shooting handloads, anything over 45-50 yards is real iffy for good patterns and penetration. And anyone that tells you otherwise, good for them! They can have their 50-60 yard hail marys!! I'm not going to argue with them. At this point in my testing I don't even know why I punish myself with the 10 ga. A 12 is good enough for the 40-45 distance I feel comfortable shooting at. I guess I just think it's cool that I have a 10 gauge. LOL And my shoulder has no problem taking it so WTH. Good shooting. Maybe Tim will come in soon and tell us all how to do it.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 26, 2011, 08:45 PM:
 
Thanks for the replies, thus far. As Joel just said, I was under the impression that buckshot generally needed a more open choke, but what I'm reading above is that conventional wisdom is not necessarily true.

The reason for the .775" choke was that there I was, at the range, and I had not pulled this gun out since opening day on doves and that's what I had screwed in. So, I figured it is useful information, even if it tells me, (and it did) that that choke and that load in this gun isn't the best choice.

That buttkicker is a little spendy, Rich! $70!

Well, I will go back and try my tightest choke. .706". I completely agree with what Jim said about how many pellets I can get in the kill zone rather than the overall pattern spread.

When I start getting close, I might risk a few of my precious dead coyote shells. I also have some 3½" #4Buck but have not tried it yet. I did try some 2½" #4Buck with 27 pellets. Actually, it patterned about the same as the 3" 41 pellet#4Buck.

I need to go back. I have a big hunt coming up, need to be ready.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on December 26, 2011, 09:27 PM:
 
I've had good luck with 12 gauge, 3 inch, copper plated lead BB thru a full choke. It will generally roll a coyote out to 40 or 45 yards. If I take a shot out between 45 and 50 yards I plan on a double tap before I pull the trigger the first time.
The downside to the super tight 70 & 80 yard patterns that can (allegedly) be obtained is that when a coyote does a run-by in the brush at 20 yards, they're kind of hard to hit with shot that hasn't opened up yet.
YMMV
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 26, 2011, 10:26 PM:
 
Yeah, that's like I have used for many years, from the truck, (edit: at night) on a coyote that busts out of brush with little warning. I like the Federal 3" 2 oz BBs, and also plan on a second round, or at least keep an eye on him for a good while. But, that's a little different than what I have in mind here. I want to knock the snot out of him at a dead run.

Good hunting. LB

[ December 26, 2011, 10:27 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 27, 2011, 06:31 AM:
 
Heck, I resepct the guys who take the time to load test their shotties, but that ain't my cup o' tea. I'll happily seek out & find the 'perfect' rifle load, but just won't bother going through that with a shotgun. The extent of my effort is to maybe try a few loads & pick the best of those. But that's it. For me, good enough is good enough in a scattergun...

That said, I do run Kick's chokes in my SBE. The "High Flyer" for waterfowl (steel shot), and the "Gobblin Thunder" for turkeyand the occasional predator stand. The GT choke has a .665" constriction and it flat peppers a turkey head at 45yds with Winny Supreme #5s. And it also throws cheapo Remmy 3" #4 buckshot in the same fashion. Don't recollect the pellet count, just that looked good enough to me at the time.
Never had a need to look for much better, and I don't carry a shottie on stand enough to warrant the effort. But again, I do admire the efforts of the guys who do. Lots of good info to learn from them...

Good luck, Leonard!
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on December 27, 2011, 07:23 AM:
 
I keep reading about shotties and shottyguns. Is that what you use to shoot "yotes"? or "yoties"?

BTW Leonard, I have always had the best luck with 4 Buck out of an improved modified choke. If you are using a shotgun at shotgun ranges anyway. I figure if they are past 50 yards they are in rifle territory. I want a shotgun for the hard chargers coming in close.

[ December 27, 2011, 07:28 AM: Message edited by: 3 Toes ]
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on December 27, 2011, 08:20 AM:
 
#4 buck will no doubt dirt-nap a coyote and do it with style. Where I have a problem with it is when a bobcat or a fox is spotted in the brush, facing you in the crouched position out about 35 or 40 yards. #4 buck just doesn't pattern dense enough to be a sure thing on a target the size of a softball. At today's bobcat prices I want a sure thing, therefore, BB gets the nod. I'll save the #4s for cougar at night.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 27, 2011, 10:31 AM:
 
Shit? So this is a friggin' Shottie? I'm with 3toes, next we will be talking about yoties, song dogs and cuticle softeners. By the way, Cal. Did you just buy yourself a NightForce? What happened to that Huskema?

Appreciate the info, koko. But remember, this application is 4 serious coyotes, or "yoties" if you will?

Next, I have to admit that I am far from an accomplished shotgunner. I hate to tell you how many shells it takes me to get a limit of dove.

Sooo, with that in mind, I bought myself a 552 EoTech. The only problem, this 835 one of the first 2,000 produced is not drilled and tapped for scope bases.

I ordered a universal base, actually, it is a heavy duty base for any Mossberg, and that brings up the concern.

I wasn't sure I could drill the aluminum precisely enough for the caphead torx screws included with the base. The screws are #8-40 and I just happened to have a couple although they are not real common, and the #29 drill.

I used some super sticky fiberglass tape and used a centering punch and went full speed ahead. I left it in place throughout the drilling and tapping so I wouldn't drift, if you know what I mean? But this is for keeps and I didn't want to mess up.

Came out very well. At the range, I only had to move elevation and windage two clicks to be dead on, at 35 paces, and it looks professionally done, and didn't involve leaving it at the gunsmith for three months.

I will post a pic in a bit, but this thing is super fast acquisition, I think I can get on a coyote a lot faster than before? The thing is, I don't miss a lot of coyotes with a shottie, but I'm kinda slow to get on them, and they can be out of sight in that time, therefore I thought this was worth a try.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 27, 2011, 11:25 AM:
 




I have a lot to learn about posting pics. I think I hate this camera!

Good hunting. LB

[ December 27, 2011, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on December 27, 2011, 12:03 PM:
 
I know im not telling any of you old timers....I mean experienced hunters anything new, but in the end its what ever you have confidence in...just like your rifle.

I shoot a lot of shot gun ammo in a year at birds. 3-4 cases of shells a season. The fact I have figured out is that you get used to a certain brand, size, etc and its best to stick with what works for you. I can go 10 for 10 with my favorite shotgun ammo and then have someone hand me 10 shells of a different brand but same size shell and shot...and I will go 3 for 10. It makes a big difference. Speed of shot and lead on a moving target are crutial for shotgunning. You change one thing and it will throw you off. Now granted birds are much harder to hit than a running coyote but changes can mess you up. Stick with what you are comfortable with.

Guess what I am trying to say is that for every gun you have to try every combination and narrow it down from there. Some people will have better luck with a less restrictive choke than others due to barrel length and shell selection etc. Same size shot and same size shell from two differnt ammo companies will pattern differently.

Some may not like it and I really dont care but I use steel shot. I use the same round that I use for all my goose hunting. Winchester Xpert 3" BB at 1550 fps out of a Briley goose choke. Bottom line I am comfortable with it and the shell/pattern ratio is what im used to. I shoot everything with that round. I know my leads on tagets at all ranges like its second nature because I stick with it and it patterns well for me. Ive killed coyotes stoned dead at 40 yards with it. Now with that said my limit is 30-40 yards and you have to know your limits to use any weapon effectively. I dont have to make many follow up shots if I get a chest/head shot out to 30-40 yards. Ive only had one run off that I knew I hit so far this year with my shotgun. Which is not bad for someone that shotguns half his coyotes in a season.

That 60-80 yard stuff is bullshit in my opinion.
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on December 27, 2011, 01:11 PM:
 
El Bee;
The photos came thru fine, but all of the sudden I have to scroll left to right to read the whole page.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 27, 2011, 02:18 PM:
 
Yeah, sorry. That's what I meant by "I hate this camera". I have tried every mode on the camera, and the one I used was supposed to be message board friendly, but it's too big. This camera is 16 megapixtals, I guess to compete with smart phone cameras? If it helps, I find it as annoying as you do.

For jimbo: I hear ya, on the center and the payload, but What I was trying to do is zero the EoTech and for that, I wanted to see what the whole pattern looked like. I think it will make it easier when I come up with an adequate choke.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on December 27, 2011, 04:19 PM:
 
Resize the pics
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on December 27, 2011, 05:23 PM:
 

quote:

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For jimbo: I hear ya, on the center and the payload, but What I was trying to do is zero the EoTech and for that, I wanted to see what the whole pattern looked like. I think it will make it easier when I come up with an adequate choke.

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Maybe, but I wouldn't bet the ranch that the center of a "diverse" pattern like that will still be the center when you slim it down some. Should be close though, but sounds like you were already. It will be interesting to find out either way. Shottyguns ( for you, Cal) can be kinda fickle when swapping loads and chokes, as Patterson eluded.

BTW, don't be bitchin' about a $70 choke tube when you went all out with the sighting system. lol.
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on December 27, 2011, 06:35 PM:
 
LB, I have 1 NightForce, but I have had it a while. I really like my Huskemaw and it is on my 22x47 Lapua and I have been shooting coyotes with it. It was on my 7mag all fall and killed 2 big antelope, a 198 inch muley,and a decent whitetail all with different trigger pullers. One antelope at over 700 yards.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 27, 2011, 06:38 PM:
 
Yeah, I know I'm just "ballpark" on the kill zone, but it should be close, as you said, no guarantees.

Anybody have a kick tube for a Mossberg they don't need? The damned thing already won't fit in the case it has traveled in for about fifteen years. I had to use a rifle case due to that big hump thingie. And, I don't have that many spare rifle cases that LONG!

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 27, 2011, 06:41 PM:
 
Cal, I talked on line to a guy named Milo? who said you share the same gunsmith and you were interested in his NF scope?

Good hunting. LB

Man, bragging! All the time, bragging! lol
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 28, 2011, 06:12 AM:
 
Patterson, good point on using different ammo & screwing up your 'mojo'. For waterfowling, I used Kent Fasteel #2s, 1550 fps. That HV stuff didn't require as much lead as the slower velocity shells I had been using. Heaven forbid I switched ammo during a hunt, I'd start smooth missin' like a damn fool!

Leonard, lemme check when I get home, I might have an X-full choke for an 835 laying around. If so, you can have it...
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on December 28, 2011, 08:49 AM:
 
Wow! LB, No one gets anything past you! lol!
I am supposed to stop and look at a 2.5 x 10. But I didn't know the news had got to Cali already. I'm guessing I will be to cheap to buy it unless I can get a pretty good deal.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 28, 2011, 10:42 AM:
 
That's right, so don't try and get away with anything. You are being watched.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 29, 2011, 08:41 AM:
 
Leonard, I'm sorry. I must've given my both of X-full chokes along when I sold my 835. IIRC, I had a Kick's .680 GT choke for it...
I'm sure if ya called Kick's they'd pair you up right, based on your ammo preference.
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 29, 2011, 08:43 AM:
 
Oh, and what's with the AR uppers in your pic???
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 29, 2011, 09:41 AM:
 
Okay, Fred. No prob.
I'm not buying one until I try this .706" or whatever it is, the one that came with the gun.
I'm not shooting turkey heads, I think I need a little more spread than that.

What's a upper?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on December 29, 2011, 03:18 PM:
 
LB, you could test it out on Fluffy the cat there? Stand off 40 yards and have at it.
Mark
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 29, 2011, 04:21 PM:
 
Man, that's MEAN!
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on December 29, 2011, 08:17 PM:
 
And tacticool rails with KAC rail covers??? Forget the shotgun tell us about the uppers!
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 29, 2011, 08:33 PM:
 
I don't know what you mean, Tom? What's tacticool?

But, anybody here using a holographic site on a shottie? Anybody TRIED it, and wasn't impressed?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on December 29, 2011, 08:38 PM:
 
First a tacticool bolt knob and now this...
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on December 29, 2011, 09:29 PM:
 
Well, sure there is. You may be dipping a toe into coolness, but you're hardly a trendsetter. Granted, the one I use (influenced hugely by Cal's recommendation) isn't as impressive looking or bullet proof as your choice, but I'm happy with it. My Benelli has the rifle sights on it (not ghost ring) and I had an awful time getting low enough to get the rear sight aligned with the top of the front. Enter the Speed Bead, problem solved.

 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 29, 2011, 11:56 PM:
 

quote:

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anybody here using a holographic site on a shottie?

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Never used one on a shot-gun ( don't care to use a shotgun on Pred.s)but I have used one for years on a Browning Buck-mark handi rifle when hunting or calling coon and also when going in after a wounded coyote or fox.. Nice thing about them is your eye can be off a bit but as long as the dot is on the target its a hit
, they don't weigh much or take up much space..
What I did'nt like about mine was the type of batteries it used (hard to find at times) and remembering to turn on or turn off the switch. Would of been nice if they came with a pressure switch and a manual switch..
I got a new set up in works and just waiting for the UPS man to drop it off. :cool..



[ December 30, 2011, 12:13 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 30, 2011, 06:12 AM:
 

 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on December 30, 2011, 08:31 AM:
 
Jim, Now thats a coyote killer there. I'm running the exact same setup on the ground, except in a camo model. I'm not convinced that a pump shotgun will do what I want as fast as I want.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 30, 2011, 09:04 AM:
 
No, never thought I was a trendsetter in anything to do with shotties. But, it's something I recently developed a curiosity about, so what the hell? A while back, it took 4 rounds to kill an average size coyote with the 27 pellet #4Buck, shooting through brush. I figured there must be facets of this thing I have not examined? I also liked Cal's set up, remember when it was discussed, but it either slipped my mind or wasn't available fora Mossberg...maybe?

Anyway, I intend to give it a reasonably fair trial, although I am like TA, definitely oriented toward rifle. In fact, I remember talking to Cal at the World, one year and he said that he was hunting the dry washes and while he killed twice as many coyotes as we did, what we got and what we saw were all in washes, same thing. The possible difference, we didn't even have a shotgu....(excuse, I mean shottie) between the two of us.

I seem to recall that DAA has the same rig?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on December 30, 2011, 09:27 AM:
 
While I like red dots, I tried one on my Benelli M2 Tactical and it just messed the whole feel of the gun up. Cal and Jim's setup would be nice.

My re dotted shottie has 30 pellets...

It's wearing the Aimpoint Micro, 5 years on one battery without ever turning it off and it's light enough that I may try it on a real shotgun one day.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 30, 2011, 10:27 AM:
 
Tacticool, fur sure! Boy, you got all the toys on that rig!

I'll tell you one thing, Donna Marie is getting fed up with me calling him, FLUFFY!

I'm getting irritated using shottie, I think I'm done with that?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on December 30, 2011, 11:22 AM:
 
Yes, I setup a dotty shotty with a Speed Bead. Or is that a shotty dotty? Maybe the Speed Bead is the shotty dotty, but the shotty with the dotty is a dotty shotty?

Or do I have that all completely wrong? Is it shotty or shottie? Hey, reminds me of one of my favorite rap songs "...makes me wanna grab my nine and my shotty, but I gotta go identify the body...".

Anyway... That was a couple years ago I think. Never got around to using it, kinda forgot about it.

Still have a screwed up mindset from back when I could shoot pretty good, and used to make fun of people that had to use shotguns to hit something just because it was moving fast.

Now, I can't shoot all that great anymore and I bet I can't hit my ass with both hands using that shotgun. So I don't make fun of people anymore. Unless they say "shotty". Unless it's Fred, with his accent, anything he says sounds cool .

- DAA
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on December 30, 2011, 02:01 PM:
 
You guys are making this WAY to complicated. Replace the front bead with one of those bright fiber optic sights. Put your cheek on the stock. Put the front sight on the coyote's nose. Yank the trigger when you have a clear shot under 40 yards. Goofy end zone dance is optional.
Simple is good............therefore, very simple is very good.
 

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Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on December 30, 2011, 03:12 PM:
 
I am with Koko and you can throw away the fibre optic front bead. Actually my eyes are focused on the target and the rib is just a blur when I shoot a shotgun. There could be 50 beads on the rib and I wouldnt see a one. And both eyes open.

Edited to add.....I have seen some of those pros on television using sticks or bipods with their shotguns....Give me a break.

[ December 30, 2011, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: R.Shaw ]
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on December 31, 2011, 09:35 AM:
 
LB, We killed several with shotguns at that hunt. And have learned to rely on them heavily at contests, although if I remember right we lost 2 that were hit with a shotgun that year, and one where my partner forgot to put a shell in his shotgun. We had 2 coming and I was on the rear one with a rifle, waiting for Cennys shotgun to go off killing the lead one. I heard a loud click followed by a major amount of cussing, so I killed the one I was on and couldn't get on the other before it disappeared into the brush. Giving credit where credit is due, Les Johnson taught Cenny and I about the effectiveness of shotguns in contests. This was back in the old days before we were all rich and famous. The first hunts we competed in we never dreamt of packing a shotgun. But after a schooling on quitting trying stopping multiples for a rifle shot and actually trying to get them to run over the guy with the shotgun and killing doubles and triples regularly because of it, we were convinced. Now, I wouldn't be caught without a shotgun and set up stands accordingly. But my personal opinion is that this works best with an auto loader and an extended mag tube. It might require several shells in rapid succession to kill 2 or 3 coyotes. Cenny Burnell can make a Benneli sound like a full auto and hit while he is doing it. He is a total phenom with a shotgun.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 31, 2011, 01:25 PM:
 
That's good stuff, Cal. Food for thought. Kinda makes my favorite shotti....(oops) shotgun not the best choice, is it? Well, we shall see?

Good huting. LB
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on December 31, 2011, 10:15 PM:
 

quote:

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I'm not convinced that a pump shotgun will do what I want as fast as I want.

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Ain't that the truth? My first shotgun was an Ithica model 37 and man, that thing was fast and slick. But having to work the slide while trying to track a target wore on me. It can be done, no doubt. This one is so slick and SO fast, it's really hard to outrun. They still do it on occaision though.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 09, 2012, 10:58 PM:
 
Well, it looks like I need one of them high dollar chokes? I tried 3" #4Buck and 3½" Dead Coyote. Not impressed with either. But, it reminded me that Dead Coyote knocks your fillings loose. Seemed like?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on January 09, 2012, 11:07 PM:
 
open the choke up a wee bit or try a 2 3/4 00-buck..
 

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Posted by Joel Hughes (Member # 384) on January 10, 2012, 08:55 AM:
 
THERE'S that advice you've been waiting for Leonard! LOL

FWIW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 10, 2012, 09:14 AM:
 
Hilarious!

I will probably get over to Bass Proshops today, (maybe) and see what they have on the shelf. I have class action rebate thing I need to redeem anyway.

Good hunting. LB

edit: PS, I have serious doubt that either of these tested loads would kill a coyote at 40 yards w/ this .706" choke?

previous choke had a pattern of 16X30"

this choke is about 14X24" for the buckshot and more like 15X15 on the dead coyote....which doesn't seem too bad, now that I look at it again? That's discounting a few strays.

[ January 10, 2012, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on January 10, 2012, 01:28 PM:
 
Those tight patterns look pretty impressive on paper, wonder how they would look if a 1/4" sheet of plywood was used instead??????
A long wadd of shot sure does funny things when comeing out the end of the barrel...
I wonder if all the shot penatrates its target and reaches it at the same time?????
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 10, 2012, 02:04 PM:
 
A little to vague, Tim?

We all know that a shotgun doesn't throw a flat pattern, as a newborn might think, looking at a patterning piece of cardboard, which is what I used and none bounced off, near as I could tell?

Do you think a shot column "whips" a coyote, the front arrives on the nose and as the end of the charge finally arrives, throughly plasters the coyote's rear end? Are you saying 1300fps is that slow? That if the target is moving, the pattern is dispersed a lot more laterally than vertical?

It would seem to me to be of small consequence, @40 yards, a couple nanoseconds. If you would take a ultra high speed video, the difference between frame #1 and frame #10 would be undetectable.

But, maybe I'm not understanding you?

PS I am a good boy! Cleaned the 835, first time in a couple seasons, for sure. Needed it! I had a Dead coyote fail to eject, for motivation.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on January 10, 2012, 04:14 PM:
 

quote:

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Do you think a shot column "whips" a coyote, the front arrives on the nose and as the end of the charge finally arrives, throughly plasters the coyote's rear end?

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No Leonard...More like wasted shot or a miss..

A long shot colum say comeing from a 3 1/2" shell is fighting itself more than a shorter shot string comeing from a 2 3/4 shell as it exits the muzzle..( over crowded) This is what causes late arrivals or flyers and also a loss of vel. for some of the shot...
Some believe a 12 ga. 3 1/2 is better on performance than a 3" or 2 3/4" shell. In reality the 3 1/2 is putting out a bigger payload than the other two but you get too much restriction and end up wasteing most of it ( not enough energy to penatrate and so on..
A better choice than useing a 3 1/2" 12 ga. load would be going to the next bigger guage which is a 10 ga., larger dia. barrel to allow more room for the same shot charge with less restriction or another choice would be to go to a short shot cup. (smaller payload)
Another note is if your shots are kept at 40 yds or less a shotty dose'nt need a fancey choke or special shells to kill coyotes..
Pattern testing: How many guys have actually shot more than one target with a choosen load they intend to use?? I say a minimum of five should be shot at for a test of a certain load.. Then come back a day or week later and repeat it.. Lots of surprises there.....

Edit to add.: A load of 00-buck at 1459 f.p.s has roughly 250 pounds of energy from the muzzle and drops to 207 pounds or more at 50 yds.

I remember a few years back when i got alot of guff for shooting coyotes at 500 yds with one of my 17 cal.s.. Most said there is'nt enough energy for a clean kill. A 30 gr. gold at 600 yds is putting out 208 pounds of energy.. So if what other have said is true then a shotty is useless past 40 yds. Something to think about..

[ January 10, 2012, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on January 10, 2012, 04:41 PM:
 

quote:

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Edit to add.: A load of 00-buck at 1459 f.p.s has roughly 250 pounds of energy from the muzzle and drops to 207 pounds or more at 50 yds.

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quote:

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there are some to lay claim to 70% or there abouts of the shot lands inside a 30" circle..

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quote:

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I remember a few years back when i got alot of guff for shooting coyotes at 500 yds with one of my 17 cal.s.. Most said there is'nt enough energy for a clean kill. A 30 gr. gold at 600 yds is putting out 208 pounds of energy.. So if what other have said is true then a shotty is useless past 40 yds

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quote:

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I believe LB just stated that the dead coyote load landed in a 15x15 area......is he lying to us?

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quote:

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If all things are equal (they aren't) then wouldn't it make sense that a shotgun would be the better choice tim? Wouldn't it be better to hit the coyote with several projectiles with the same energy as compared to 1 projectile?

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quote:

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Trying to justify your 700 yd shots by comparing it to a 40 yd shot with a shotgun just doesn't make sense. The two can't be compared in any logical way.

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quote:

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Sure, might be way down in foot pounds, so it is a good thing that the effect is cumulative: we have to add up the pellets that strike home, and maybe there is enough total energy to knock the snot out of him?

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quote:

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Its the guys that claim those 50-60-70 yd kills and I'm betting in real life they get the same results as a guy useing a 17 HMR, there just to ashamed to talk about it...

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quote:

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As you pursue the really tight patterns at 40-45 & 50 yards, the pattern gets really really tight at 10-15 & 20 yards, making it easy to miss a coyote that comes in fast & zig-zagging around brush. These misses are (1) ALWAYS witnessed. And, (2) The witness will gleefully tell the world in great detail how you missed a coyote with a shotgun, that was coming to hike it's leg on your boot.

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Is'nt that what the rifle is for..
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 12, 2012, 04:39 PM:
 
Thanks, and I know the problems and usually hunker down out of sight of anybody that is going to laugh at my misses. I also try to make sure, being out of sight, that my partner can't run a bullet up my ass, so I get down in the wash where he can't hit me without a big effort.

Maybe I will go all in, and get Jimanezed with this rig?

You know, antisocial lonesome dove, ghillie suit, etc.?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on January 12, 2012, 08:54 PM:
 
LOL! You better stick with what you know.
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on January 12, 2012, 09:06 PM:
 
"Isn't that what the rifle is for?"

Tim;
Here's how I break it down, based on my vast amount of inter-net experience and the fact that two coyotes have crossed the road in front of my truck so far this year.

0 to 2 yards; Handgun!!! At the very least, a Python, .357 Mag. Better to use a 1911. You're being attacked.......spray & pray, or curse loudly.

Out to around 40 yards; Shotgun. Shottie for the cutting edge crowd. Pumps used to be fast enough but autoloaders are needed now. If you carry an O/U like I do, even I will laugh at you.

Shots between shotgun distance and about 125 yards; A decent Mini-14 is all you need. Half minute of coyote at 100 yards. Maybe a 20 round clip, too.

100 to 300 yards; Any semi-auto rifle as long as it's black and has a 1 to 250 ratio. Meaning that 1 rifle should cost about what 250 coyote pelts will bring.

Out past 300; Any bolt action with a big knob and `improved` in the name.

Remember.............we're here to help.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 12, 2012, 09:37 PM:
 
"Leonard be carefull and make sure you get the right choke tube.. Not sure if you know but some types or brands are'nt built strong enough for steel shot, thickness and material used has something to do with this..

I bought a Stoeger 12 ga. semi-auto last fall that came with 6 choke tubes, some are ment for steel shot and some for lead."
-------------------------------------
Yeh, right! Hey Leonard, no need for you to pick the brain of folks like 3 Toes who actually KILL coyotes with shotguns. I mean Hell, you have T.A. who is still talking old school shotgunning and uses a sawed off Ithaca or some shit that might just hit the side of a shit house at 20 yards with a pattern that a deer could run through. T.A. knows all you need to know.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 12, 2012, 10:20 PM:
 
So, are you saying he should stick to BB gun advice? Sub caliber stuff? Hey, you two are practically Paisanos, Iowa being bumped up to Minneesota and all?

Now that I think about it, you two have the makin's of a darn good team, Cronkster manning the shottie and Timmy boy handling the 50 yarders. Whoah boy, look out coyotes!

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on January 12, 2012, 11:51 PM:
 
My shotgunning days was spent killing mostly Ducks, Geese and pheasants along with some fox and coyotes, Not as many coyotes as Cal but I think I have killed enough of the other animals mentioned to make up for it...
There is an old Rem./Browning A-5/model 11 12 ga. auto sitting over at my mothers house that my dad used in a plane back in the early days that has taken its share of fur. I think cronk was still in diapers then...

[ January 13, 2012, 12:24 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 13, 2012, 01:48 PM:
 
"So, are you saying he should stick to BB gun advice? Sub caliber stuff? Hey, you two are practically Paisanos, Iowa being bumped up to Minneesota and all?

Now that I think about it, you two have the makin's of a darn good team, Cronkster manning the shottie and Timmy boy handling the 50 yarders. Whoah boy, look out coyotes!"
-------------------------------------------
Not exactly Leonard,
The guy seems fairly learned up on the black machine guns, and he has even called up a few coyotes. My point is that the guy knows zero about todays shotguns with screw in chokes. I'm pretty sure that you know more about shotguns than Timmy does.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 13, 2012, 03:30 PM:
 
b cause I own TWO twelve gauge shotties, I know more than anybody on my block. Possibly the whole zip code?

My burning D zyre is to purchase a rig like 3toes has, when I win the LOTTO. I go all in!

Good hunting. El Bee ness
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on January 13, 2012, 04:01 PM:
 

quote:

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The guy seems fairly learned up on the black machine guns,

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Yeah I carried one around for a few years, not by choice. I liked the M-60 much better..
Even bought one for hunting a few years back, thought it would help my game on the runners or multiple's.. Found out all I really needed to do was practice more and be patient and the bolt action rifle would get it done...
I played around with alot of choke tubes back in the day when we had to switch from lead shot to steel for ducks and geese.. Also bought tite chokes and then ran a cylinder hone through them to get a certain dia. same can be done on shotguns with out choke tubes, you can change the shape or size of the forceing cone.
Shotgun ammo is'nt the same as rifle ammo were it can be tuned for each rifle to print a nice tite group..
You can try different brands, sizes 2 3/4, 3", and 3 1/2" and if you reload varis types of shot-cups (wadds) or different size shot to get you close to what you want in performance but there is no guarentee its going to perform the same from one shot to the next or a different day or change in temp.s. Cold steel, dirty barrel or a build-up of wadd material is a few of the reasons..
I remember awhile back Clevor Gary did a post on a cracked choke tube and claimed it was the cause of poor patterns.. When you screw a choke into a barrel it will fit tite against the threads of the barrel even if its cracked and the barrel will keep it from exspanding , there is no movement or play in a cracked tube to allow it to make any changes in a pattern or enough to notice the diffence...LMAO...
Learned a long time ago use a choke/shot size that comes close to what distance and size of game you intend to shoot and go hunting but don't exspect one shot kills everytime it dose'nt work like that..
IMO a shotgun is for the birds..
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on January 13, 2012, 04:12 PM:
 
Leonard I've also owned a few shotguns in my day. At one time I had a 28 ga double barrel, 16 ga, double (still have it) 12 ga. rem. 870, 11-87, 12 ga. over under, browning BPS 10 ga., Ithica 10 ga, ithica 12 feather weight,Berretta exstrema 12 ga., rem. model 11 12 ga. and a few others.. I don't know as much as some but do know a little more than others..LOL
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on January 13, 2012, 05:16 PM:
 
What was the title of this thread?
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 13, 2012, 06:00 PM:
 
JD,
I believe the title was "Can we have a serious discussion about shotguns for coyotes?" Now I know why you dubbed T.A. a Clueless Ass hat.
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on January 13, 2012, 08:12 PM:
 

 

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Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on January 14, 2012, 01:59 PM:
 
Cal what choke you using?

I have kind of came full circle with my shotguns. Started off with a 18inch mossberg pump with a cylinder bore shooting #4 buck and remember using this gun to kill my first and only true double with a shotgun.

Then I bought an off brand semi auto and a dead coyote choke and never really liked it because it would jam.

Then I stepped up to a Benelli semi auto with a dead coyote choke. Thinking this would solve my jamming issues. It was much better but I learned I'm too hard on shotguns as they always seem to get tossed in the sand when I need my rifle. A semi auto's action full of sand never works.
I also seemed to be missing lots of hard charging coyotes with the dead coyote choke.

I decided that I would go back to a pump gun with a more open choke and try to shoot only close coyotes with it and leave those 40+ yard coyotes for the rifle. With a pump that has a fair amount of sand in it you can slam the action shut with some force.

Currently I'm using a mossberg pump with a IM choke. I think I would like upgrade to the Benelli pump so I could try out that speed bead sight since they dont make it for my mossberg.

[ January 14, 2012, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: JeremyKS ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 14, 2012, 02:25 PM:
 
Maybe they don't have sand, in Wyoming? Either that, or it's frozen?

I had that dead coyote shell fail to eject so I decided to clean the shotgun, including polishing the chamber with a rolled up scotchbrite pad. Half ass anyway? it was a 3½" shell, maybe that ad somethin to do with it? I don't think I will buy anymore 3½" shells. My shottie adviser, TA says they get too crowded in the barrel. He has owned 10 gauge and even a 28 gauge!

Me? I sold the best shotgun I ever owned, a Remington 11-47 or was it 48? I should ask the guy if I can buy it back but he has told me several times, he loves it! Yeah, for $50 bucks, who wouldn't?

Good hunting. LB

[ January 14, 2012, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 14, 2012, 04:12 PM:
 
Leonard,
I had one of those 11-48's also. It was a good reliable gun, but not equipped with screw-in choke tubes. Besides that, I like to shoot 3", and sometimes 3&1/2" fodder on coyotes. I knew that I wanted to shoot those hard kicking 3&1/2" boomers, which is why I bought the gas operated semi Auto. Your shotgun has about same bore diameter as the mighty ten gauge, so crowding the shot too much is unlikely. Hey, if you get that .710 tube from Indian Creek, be sure to let us know how well it patterns. Never fear about penetration with Hevi-shot T,s, that stuff will blow right through 1/2" plywood at 40 yards. I plan to go out and try a couple more of these 3&1/2" lead #4 BUCK that I have in Winchester brand. I recall that those buggers showed a pretty good pattern out at 50 yards. I will let you know if my memory is correct on that. I will turn 71 the day after tomorrow, and my memory does not improve with age.
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on January 14, 2012, 04:18 PM:
 
JeremyKS
"I also seemed to be missing lots of hard charging coyotes with the Dead Coyote choke".

Thank You!!!! I've been trying to make that point for quite a while.
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on January 14, 2012, 04:20 PM:
 
Happy B'Day, Rich!!!!!
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 14, 2012, 04:39 PM:
 
koko, have you ever had trouble hitting hard chargers with a dead coyote choke, or something similar? Odd? First I heard of it?

Happy birthday, Mr Rich Cronk. That many candles on a birthday cake could cause it to collapse. Be careful, my friend.

I have a box of 3½" #4Buck. Haven't tried it yet but sounds like serious coyote medicine. You are right about that Remington, a 2¾" chamber, but I still wish I had it. One of those things, ya know? It just felt good, every time I picked it up.

I will let you know how that new fangled choke tube works. As I said, it's a sexy looking number. That's how I judge everything, if it looks good, I'll buy it.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on January 14, 2012, 05:06 PM:
 

quote:

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I've been trying to make that point for quite a while.

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quote:

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Once you get used to a scope, you are on the target as quick as gun hits your shoulder,

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Thats abunch of BS right there and you know it...
You should plan on attending the Mr. coyote shoot next year and you can show the boys how its done..LOL
Without a scope your eye has a wider field of view and able to pick up a target faster than trying to find it through a scope with smaller field of view..
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on January 14, 2012, 08:53 PM:
 
As far as Jim's post goes yep I get it.. There are some areas that nothing else may work except a shotgun.. But like I mentioned earlier I avoid those spots and pick a place where i can use a rifle and call the coyotes to me, thats what calls are for, you know bring the animal to you...
I have some thick stuff I call at home and just set up on the edge of it and call the coyotes out into the open, corn fields and CRP to name a few..
Even in AZ there are high spots a caller can set up on and call from and also get the jump on a coyote with a rifle.

Even In S.D. I come across some thick stuff that holds coyotes, just call them out and shoot.

 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on January 14, 2012, 09:17 PM:
 

quote:

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and he shot ducks and pheasants...

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Yep and most of my experience is on live targets and not paper or clay pigeons...
Shooting birds is'nt much different than coyotes, you still have to match the load to the size of target and distance and also the size of your shot pattern. Too tite can end up with alot of misses or waste of meat, too loose you end up with alot of misses or criples..Same goes for shot that dose'nt penatrate deep enough or goes through and through..
I have nothing against useing a shot gun if its used in the right place and shots kept at 40 yds or less, just hate to see people waste money on them to try and make it do something its not capable of doing consistantly....
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 14, 2012, 09:18 PM:
 
"Once you get used to a scope, you are on the target as quick as gun hits your shoulder"
------------------------------------------------
And with iron sights you have to line up the front sight with the rear sight, while with a scope you only have ONE sight to place on the kill zone. Scopes are hard to use for a beginner. Like everything in life, it takes practice to master the art. Now it takes common sense for a man to learn to simply keep his mouth shut when he doesn't know what the hell he is talking about. I have no time to waste by arguing with an idiot, so Timmy I will ignore your post's from this time forward.
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on January 14, 2012, 11:45 PM:
 
No plug. So what, are you coming to Arizona to try out our new night regs?
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on January 14, 2012, 11:49 PM:
 
Tim, you ninny, the stuff in that picture aint thick. Good gawd man you can see for 10 miles, I know you're referring to the strip of trees in the wash but really?! Nincompoop!! (sp)
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on January 15, 2012, 12:46 AM:
 

quote:

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And with iron sights you have to line up the front sight with the rear sight, while with a scope you only have ONE sight to place on the kill zone. Scopes are hard to use for a beginner. Like everything in life, it takes practice to master the art. Now it takes common sense for a man to learn to simply keep his mouth shut when he doesn't know what the hell he is talking about. I have no time to waste by arguing with an idiot, so Timmy I will ignore your post's from this time forward.

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Tim, you ninny, the stuff in that picture aint thick. Good gawd man you can see for 10 miles,

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Yep your right you can see a long ways from up on top. Get down in it and tell me how far you can see..

About a half hour before the pic was taken there was a coyote down in that stuff. If I liked to use a shotgun on my stands I proably would of gone down in there and called it in and shot it with the shot gun.. But since I don't I just called it out into the open instead and potted it with the rifle...

Here is some thicker stuff;;



Anytime you have to go into the thick stuff then you are playing according to the coyotes terms and in alot of instances the coyote comes out on top.. I don't play that way and always try to make my stands so I have the upper hand..

[ January 15, 2012, 01:06 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 15, 2012, 02:03 PM:
 
Leonard,
I ordered a Burris "speed bead" this morning. You have to purchase one of these that is made specifically for you shotgun make and model. I know that 3 Toes thinks highly of the speed bead, and I think maybe the low profile of this particular mounting method will still allow me to use my regular shotgun case.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 15, 2012, 04:26 PM:
 
These patterns were shot some time ago, so you may have seen the photos before. Shotgun was Beretta Extrema2, choke was Kicks .680 Gobbling Thunder, and ammo was 3" Hevi shot "dead coyote" T,s.



 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 15, 2012, 04:33 PM:
 
That 50 yard plate looks a lot like my 40 yard target with the 3½" Dead Coyote. Well, I am anxious to see what I wind up with using the BLACK DIAMOND CHOKE. It better be worth $90 Bucks.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 15, 2012, 05:40 PM:
 
"That 50 yard plate looks a lot like my 40 yard target with the 3½" Dead Coyote. Well, I am anxious to see what I wind up with using the BLACK DIAMOND CHOKE. It better be worth $90 Bucks."
------------------------------------------
I am anxiously awaiting to see the results the new Black Diamond produces also. Shotguns are sorta like people. They all prefer something a bit different. I have kicked myself in the arse for trading off a Remington model 870 "Magnum" several years ago. That thing shot nice dense patterns that hit where I was looking. Another shotgun I stupidly traded of was a Zabala side by side that killed pheasants like a real champion. That was back in the days before I patterned on paper before taking a shotgun out hunting. Well, shucks! At least I have learned a little bit since then.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 15, 2012, 06:09 PM:
 
Yeah, me too. I can't remember the last time I shot this much paper? Yes I do, it was when I first bought this Mossberg and that had to have been at least 15 years ago? I think I decided it was good enough, mainly for walking up cripples. I've always liked the Federal 2 oz BB's for that chore.

Damn, that Dead Coyote kicks! I might use the 3" #4Buck as first up followed by Dead Coyote, if I need it....which I hope that I won't?

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 15, 2012, 07:01 PM:
 
"Damn, that Dead Coyote kicks! I might use the 3" #4Buck as first up followed by Dead Coyote, if I need it....which I hope that I won't?"
----------------------------------------------
I think the 3" #4 BUCK will kill coyotes out to 45 yards or so with the right choke tube for your gun. That Winchester 3&1/2" fodder will likely add another 5-10 yards. You may be wise to bite the bullet and buy a gas operated semi auto shotgun. The kick is still there of course, but the gas operated action soaks up quite a bit of it. I won't be going back out with my shotgun until I have the new speed bead installed. I hope to have some exciting news real soon. I may soon change my screen name to SHOTgunKiller or something really important sounding. I will be a year older in less than four hours now ya see.
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on January 15, 2012, 07:34 PM:
 
Happy Birthday Rich!
 

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Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on January 15, 2012, 08:14 PM:
 
Concerning shotguns, fit plays a very important role if you intend to hit what you are looking at. A few things to think about.

When your shotgun is mounted, there should be 2 to 3 finger width between the tip of your nose and your thumb as it comes over the top of the grip. Head in an upright position, not tilted to see down the barrel.

Hang a bed sheet on a barb wire fence, make a target in the center and step back about 25 yards. Using a tight choke and bird shot, mount your shotgun and shoot without aiming as it is intended to be done. Lower your gun and repeat for 5 to 7 shots. About this time you will see a hole begin to form in the sheet which indicates where the gun shoots and how it fits you.

Most people mount the gun then chase the target. Your gun should be moving towards the target with your left hand as it is brought to the shoulder by both. This helps to establish your swing and follow-thru. I like to insert my shotgun on the target, then pull ahead for proper lead. No chasing.

Also, your left index finger is layed along side the forearm. You are actually pointing towards the target with this finger. Think about it.

This does not apply to seated shooting, but the shotgun should be mounted from the muzzle down position. Both hands move up to mount versus muzzle up when left is coming down and right is going up. See-saw effect.

Shoot with both eyes open. Try to face as far to the right as you can. It is much easier for a right hander to hit right to left targets by doing this. You are coming into a twist and the stock is continually pressed against the cheek. It also allows much more movement when you have the left to right shots.

I only use a shotgun for birds and targets, not coyotes, but a moving target is a moving target.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 15, 2012, 08:28 PM:
 
Sounds reasonable? As I said, I'm just not a natural shottie shooter, I learned that a long time ago. Some people got it and some don't. What seems natural for AR is anything but, for me. All I can say is; I manage. With conscious effort.

Good hunting. El Beezer
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 15, 2012, 10:02 PM:
 
Most folks have a dominate eye, and do well with shooting with both eyes open. My eyes are equal, meaning that I have learned to shoot with left eye closed. I shoot both scoped rifles and shotguns in same manner. My shotgun is aimed like a rifle. Most shotgun stocks are too long for me, and I end up cutting them down. Remington shotguns are 14" length of pull, which works fine for me. Browning and others with longer pull really suck, because they catch on my clothing when I am dressed in heavy winter clothing. My point? Use what works for you. I will be 71 years old in less than one hour. I have earned the right to shoot my guns however I want, and nobody can take that away from me.
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on January 16, 2012, 06:30 AM:
 
R.Shaw;
"...........a moving target is a moving target."

I have to respectfully disagree. Not all moving targets are created equal. I can put the bead on a coyotes nose, aiming the shotgun like a rifle, and do rather well. Needless to say, I really suck at wingshooting.
 

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Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on January 16, 2012, 07:15 AM:
 
Koko...This goes without saying, but I will say it anyways. The amount of lead necessary and how a person acquires the lead is all relative.

I think a hold on a 35 yard coyotes nose as he lopes through your stand would be about right.

A crossing clay target at 35 yards from a Lincoln trap with the spring cranked tight requires about a canoe length. Depending on how you get there.

Then you have a squirrel target. Where a clay is rolled down a wooden trough using gravity to power it. Cant shoot until it reaches the ground and you must kill it before it tips over which usually occurs within 8 feet depending on the terrain. And the terrain changes after every shot including your own. Sounds easy. No lead for this one, but it is a nerve rattling, flinch developing SOB.
At least for me. LOL

[ January 16, 2012, 07:44 AM: Message edited by: R.Shaw ]
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on January 16, 2012, 07:41 AM:
 
both eyes open, shoulder, swing and shoot.
Nothing to it.
Dang its a shotgun...no need to be surgical when you have to carry the bitch.

Stay after them
Kelly

edit to add - I have only killed one coyote with a shotgun this season, but it is the only one I shot at....so I know what I'm doing...lol

[ January 16, 2012, 07:44 AM: Message edited by: Kelly Jackson ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 16, 2012, 10:29 AM:
 
Kelly Jackson,
It is nice to see you over here Kelly! I know that you are busy calling coyotes and all, but you have a lot of tips and tricks to share.
Good hunting,
Rich
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 16, 2012, 11:41 AM:
 

quote:

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both eyes open, shoulder, swing and shoot.
Nothing to it. Kelly Jackson

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Great advice! The only thing you forgot was: "ah shucks"I can't tell you just how many dove I have missed with that method.

You know, it's one thing to be a natural wing shooter, and another to not understand the agony those of us not so blessed suffer.

And you, Shaw. I have seen you kill coyotes behind a hill, out of sight, so spare us mere mortals, K?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on January 16, 2012, 12:20 PM:
 
your shooting behind them LB..lol....and you are picking your head up...
At least half of that is right, for what its worth.

Rich - Happy Birthday, hope all is well.

Stay after them
Kelly
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 16, 2012, 01:02 PM:
 
None of those. I do notice that I have a habit of stopping the swing as the gun discharges. Anyway, I'm not totally inept, but I'm not a natural, either. Count your blessings.

As I said, I manage. But, things can be improved upon. And, that's why I'm doing this shit.

Good hunting. El Beeno
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 16, 2012, 01:40 PM:
 
"I do notice that I have a habit of stopping the swing as the gun discharges. Anyway, I'm not totally inept, but I'm not a natural, either. Count your blessings."
-----------------------------
Man I can relate to THAT alright! I finally have learned the "swing through" method which works well for me.
 

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Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on January 18, 2012, 08:40 PM:
 
Anybody ever try a pistol grip on their shotgun?
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on January 18, 2012, 08:56 PM:
 
I did and it was great sitting on sticks turkey hunting but when things picked up speed, it sucked. I went back to a straight wingshooting type shotgun.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on January 18, 2012, 08:59 PM:
 
I did and it was great sitting on sticks turkey hunting but when things picked up speed, it sucked. I went back to a straight wingshooting type shotgun.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 18, 2012, 09:01 PM:
 
JeremyKS,

I have observed that quite a few guys are setting up their shotguns with pistol grips. Those things make absolutely no sense to me. I have this notion that those guys simply want to look like soldiers.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on January 18, 2012, 09:03 PM:
 

quote:

---

I have this notion that those guys simply want to look like soldiers

---

I had the same thoughts when the AR's started showing up...
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 18, 2012, 10:02 PM:
 
I was never very impressed with the pistol grip on a shottie. lol To me, the pistol grip changes the whole dynamics. I am not a fan.

Good hunting. LB

(but, what do I know?)
 

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Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on January 18, 2012, 10:54 PM:
 
My experience runs counter to what most good shotgunners advise, which is the method Shaw laid out. I "aim" every firearm I shoot, rifle,shotgun or handgun. If I don't aim, I find I usually miss.
I held the record for a particular speed shotgun match in southern Arizona, bowling pin shooting. Five pins,25 feet away on a five foot high table,four feet in depth,with pins placed one foot back from the front edge, and spaced one foot apart. Start was low ready, shotgun not in shoulder, but muzzle forward, butt just above the hip. Pins had to be hit good to completely clear them off the table.
I shot a Rem 1100 with extended mag tube,pistol grip, and just a bead for front sight. My time of 2.17 seconds held until they quit holding the matches(pins became to expensive). I still aim my shotgun every time I shoot it, whether at birds,or clays.
I shot trap and sporting clays for a few years, and considered my self fairly competent, never beat the best guys, but could hang with them. They always tried to get me to change from "aiming" to what the conventional wisdom of proper shotgun mount and technique is, but I just couldn't break my ingrained aiming technique.
Im amazed watching a fine shotgunner, and realizing the sonofabitch is hitting those fast targets instinctually, or so it appears.

[ January 18, 2012, 11:16 PM: Message edited by: Az-Hunter ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 19, 2012, 12:53 PM:
 
Vic, that's where I'm at. And, that's why this EOTECH has the appeal for me. I have a bit of confidence that it is going to work out well for GROUND SLUICING hard chargers. Oh yeah, I have great appreciation for those natural pointers, until, that is, when they can't comprehend that some folks don't have the "point and click" gene.

Good hunting. LB

edit: ...and yes, I'm much better at trap than skeet. Okay, more accurately: mediocre, and stinks.

[ January 19, 2012, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on January 19, 2012, 02:21 PM:
 
So put that eo-thingie on one of those AR uppers and have at it.

Thought we'd forget didn't you?
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 19, 2012, 02:28 PM:
 
Here it is guys.

 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 19, 2012, 03:49 PM:
 
There you go, a killing machine if I ever saw one.

Good luck, El Bee

edit: hope it don't mess with your precise length of pull?

[ January 19, 2012, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 19, 2012, 04:24 PM:
 
"hope it don't mess with your precise length of pull?"
----------------------------
Nah, the original length of pull was longer than I like, and this gun was easy to fix that. I simply removed a spacer that was located just forward of recoil pad. That spacer was about 1" long, or a little less. This gun also has spacers to change cast on, cast off and other neat little things. The Beretta manual suggests hiring a gunsmith for this kind of work, but I am a pretty good fixer sometimes.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 19, 2012, 05:59 PM:
 
You haven't killed anything with it yet? How did it pattern? Get off the couch, dude!

Good hunting. El Byee
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 19, 2012, 06:58 PM:
 
Hey, guess what I got in the mail today? Yup; got the Black Diamond Assault Choke. Pretty good service, in my opinion. And, it turns out I will have the time to run to the range and check the pattern before my big hunt. Might not be able to sleep tonight. lol

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 19, 2012, 08:20 PM:
 
"You haven't killed anything with it yet? How did it pattern? Get off the couch, dude!"
----------------------------------
Hey it just arrived today. I have the installation and rough alignment of the red dot completed already. Pretty dang good for an old fart don't ya think? I hope to get out tomorrow for more precise point of impact adjustments. I see that your new choke tube arrived today. Where are the photos of your patterns? Oh right, you had to take a nap and sit in front of boob tube for awhile right? LOL On a more serious note, I really do hope that the new choke tube shoots nice tight and dense patterns for you sir.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 19, 2012, 09:11 PM:
 
I will say this, if looks could kill, this rig should do the job.

Hey look, when I got around to checking the mail, it was after 6:00 o'clock and around these parts, it's pitch dark! Not the time to drive into the mountains, and up that canyon. It's quiet, dark and a little spooky. It's a mile and a half off the road, they are installing a cell tower but it's not operational, yet. Not a place for a flat, in the middle of the night.

One of the things I like about the WEGC is that I have 24/7 access, the gate is locked but members have the combination. Daytime is better, in this case. Please be patient.

Good hunting. LB

[ January 19, 2012, 09:15 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 20, 2012, 05:50 AM:
 
Well Shucks, I thought that you were an old night hunter Leonard.
http://www.cronkpredatorcalls.com/sounds/RcCash.mp3
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 20, 2012, 09:21 AM:
 
I got an email from Victor Gray! He's willing to sell me back that 11-48, but only if I let him buy lunch. I don't know if I can do that; I always buy lunch?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 27, 2012, 12:49 PM:
 
Leonard,

Here are a couple of photo's of this morning's patterning results. Fodder was Winchester 3&1/2" #4 BUCK (54 pellet). These patterns were shot with Beretta Extema2. Choke is Kicks Industries .680 "Gobbling Thunder"


 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 27, 2012, 12:55 PM:
 
I'm leaving pretty soon, I still haven't patterned this new choke. Creeks been too high.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 27, 2012, 05:38 PM:
 


This is 40 yards
It's Winchester 12 gauge 3½" #4BUCK (54 pellets)

I could count 49 or 50 if I included a couple on the board, to the right? But, I think there is at least one double hole, so essentially, they are all there in about an 18" pattern. The point of aim was the white square and I adjusted the EOTECH down one click.

This load kicks like a friggin' mule!

Good hunting. LB

[ January 27, 2012, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by RonFin (Member # 3483) on January 27, 2012, 06:46 PM:
 
Rich, those are killer patterns, especially the 40 yard. The 50 would do too.

Been waitin' for your Speed Bead report...You likey?

Fortunately Tundra Wookies latest e-caller report has provided us with plenty of entertainment this week. It's like a group of scientific theory guys vs a guest from the Jerry Springer show.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 27, 2012, 07:49 PM:
 
RonFin,

Yes, I do like the speed bead. I want to put together a large square of cardboard, maybe 30" or so and check my pattern from 40 yards, just to see how well I am centered ya know? No hurry, because I have a coyote killer just the way it is. The head scratcher is that I still have some Hevi shot "T,s" and I know that they are striking higher than the #4 Buck. I am gonna shoot the #4 BUCK for rest of this season, kill a few coyotes, and THEN figure the rest out. I haven't read all of the CS-24 thread on other board, but I have quite a lot of respect for the knowledge of Snowcamoman in regard to E callers. Hey, are you related to Huckleberry Fin?

Edited for spelling

[ January 27, 2012, 07:52 PM: Message edited by: Rich ]
 

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Posted by RonFin (Member # 3483) on January 27, 2012, 08:41 PM:
 
Rich,
I plan to start doing some "shotgun only" stands next season. So will spend the summer learning to shoot, patterning and such. Recently purchased the Beretta A400 Extreme with KO. I believe it's the replacement for the 391 Extrema. Right now I've begun to learn how to shoot a shotgun at clays. Next will be choosing a choke to use with the same WinXB12L4 3 1/2's that you, LB, and some others are using for 50 yard kills.

I'm expecting the recoil while focused on a coyote will be ok. Patterning may be a different story.

I'm really a shotgun novice and am enjoying learning to shoot with both eyes open. Maybe the speed bead will be a shortcut since I only will use the shotgun for coyotes.

I was refering to the ongoing posts here on e-callers. Only thing I follow at PM is the 35 page post on shotgun patterning. Yep, the Alaskan and GC have the testing and comparrison of e-callers covered for the rest of us.

Regarding your Hevi Shot, won't you just re-sight for them, shoot 'em and re-sight again? Like returning to zero on a rifle scope?

Never thought about the Huck Fin relationship, but I have been tricked into painting (whitewashing?) a few fences.
 

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Posted by RonFin (Member # 3483) on January 27, 2012, 08:46 PM:
 
LB,

Was in your area to buy and pick-up my new shotgun. PSA. John said he has an onging coyote problem in the canyon behind his house. I figured it must be illegal to shoot there. If not, maybe you have an area close to home to do live testing?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 27, 2012, 10:24 PM:
 
No, I'm a member at The West End Gun Club, which has a postal address here in Upland, but the range is off of Lydle Creek Road and up the canyon. There is a sign on the highway. You have to cross Lydle Creek.

I wouldn't do any shooting in the foothills although there are plenty of coyotes, we see them on my street frequently and once, in my back yard, actually running along the top of the block wall like the neighborhood cats. I have called coyotes in the canyons on both sides of town, they are here, for sure. (I have been tempted, sorely tempted)

I am very sure that a semi-auto would be a lot less punishing than this pump I am using.

Good hunting. LB

edit: I am positive I will be bruised, by tomorrow morning..... I still feel it!

[ January 27, 2012, 10:27 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 27, 2012, 10:27 PM:
 
"Regarding your Hevi Shot, won't you just re-sight for them, shoot 'em and re-sight again? Like returning to zero on a rifle scope?"
------------------------------------------
Yep! I just have to settle on what I want to use, which isn't easy for a guy like me. Kinda like deciding which Gal, er--I mean which GUN to take along on the next calling stand.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 27, 2012, 10:32 PM:
 
What are you paying for the #4Buck, Rich? I stopped at BassProshops on the way back from the range and bought two more boxes. $10. I think it was $21.50 with tax?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 27, 2012, 10:59 PM:
 
This choke I have is .745", just like the first factory choke I tried, which gave me a 16X30 pattern.

I scribed a 9" paper plate in the exact center of the pattern, and counted 13 hits, with three more within a quarter inch. I think it's a pretty good coverage, considering they are all within an 18" circle? Not "ALL" to be perfectly honest, but what is the percentage of birdshot they use when the talk about a 30" circle? Is there not a percentage that they consider a passing grade? It sure as hell ain't over 93%, is it?

Good hunting. LB

[ January 27, 2012, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 27, 2012, 11:53 PM:
 
Took me long enough!

How choke is determined. Choke is determined for all shotguns by the amount of shot it delivers within a 30" circle at 40yds.
(1) Cylinder bore-40%
(2) Improved cylinder-50%
(3) Modified-60%
(4) Full-70%

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 28, 2012, 08:11 AM:
 
LEONARD,

I paid a bit over 9.00 per box, but after shipping charges it was probably a bit more than the 10.00 you paid. By the way, your new choke ain't .745, ya Boob.
"I looked at their website. The operative word on the choke I bought is "Strike" and it's intended for turkey. If it had said; Black Diamond Assault then it's for coyotes and the choke is (I think?) .710", not .675" which is the turkey model/Strike."
--------------------------------------------
I believe that you sent the .675 Strike back and traded it for the .710 Assault. You are getting decent patterns with the new Assault, so I have to say that you did good.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 28, 2012, 08:27 AM:
 
I picked up the card that came with the choke and was very surprised that it said .745"! Nowhere on the website did it say .745" but the card says it. I have a decent calipers but I don't know where to measure the choke? Is it right at the muzzle, or what?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 28, 2012, 08:36 AM:
 
Leonard,
Only an educated guess, but try measuring at the front of tube. Inside diameter of course. I will be very surprised if it actually turns out to be .745 I.D.

Edited to add--I just looked on Indian Creek site and found this.
$84.95
FITS GUN MODELS
12 GA ONLY
MODEL # 3004 MOSS 835,935 - Standard Constriction - .710

[ January 28, 2012, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: Rich ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 28, 2012, 08:59 AM:
 
Yeah, I know! I might be a boob, but I can read the card and it says .745" choke. I might have to call them, but first I will try to measure it and get a number.

Good hunting. LB

edit: I measured it and it's .745" I called and apparently they take the weekend off but I left a message. Two messages, in fact. We will see if I get an explanation, Monday?

[ January 28, 2012, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 28, 2012, 10:35 AM:
 
Leonard,
I did a little search on Google. It looks like the nominal bore diameter of your 835 is .775, so the choke you received gives you .030 constriction.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 28, 2012, 11:36 AM:
 
I don't know what to think? The pattern seems reasonable, I don't really want a turkey choke; I'm not that good at pointing a shottie at a running target and as koko said, when they are fifteen or twenty feet away, and running, that pattern out of a turkey choke is pretty small. I think this pattern can kill a coyote and I intend to find out.

Now, the guy I talked to said they have other chokes, if I request them, but this is starting to get out of hand. I'm just screwing around, I don't want to make a career out of patterning different choke tubes. Even at $2 Bucks a pop, it's more money than I really want to invest.

I wish I was like AR Shaw, you just pick up a shottie and don't even think about it, it's automatic, (apparently) and they die. But, what if he uses a different shell, and it shoots to a different point? Is that natural talent going to miss 98% of his shots, or what?

One thing I am finding out, (well I actually knew it before) is that you never know what kind of pattern a specific gun and load will shoot. I hear about tight chokes and large shot and "donuts" and shooting high and all over the place. I saw some targets on line with 3 hits in an 8" circle from Remington shells. WTF? I think it was in a Benelli, too?

I might just call this good, but I would like to see what kind of performance I get on a volunteer.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 28, 2012, 11:56 AM:
 
Your pattern looks like a coyote killer to me also. Look at those pellet holes to right and left of center on your above photo. If that target was a broadside coyote, it would have made him very, very dead. You are correct in regard to shotguns being very different from each other in regard to where the pattern goes, which choke it likes and etc. too.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 28, 2012, 04:30 PM:
 
I went out to do a little shooting this afternoon. It was so windy that my makeshift target stand blew over three times. I shot one 3" Federal round that blew a hole right through my paper plate with the dang wad! Looked like I had shot it with a slug. The shotgun still likes the 3&1/2" Winchester #4 BUCK the best. I count 15 holes in that 5&1/2" center of the plate.

 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 18, 2012, 05:38 PM:
 
I finally got out to pattern the new Wad Wizard tube. It looks like it is a so-so coyote whacker. Good enough, but nothing to brag about.



 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 18, 2012, 05:42 PM:
 
Nice patterns.. With patterns that tite a shooter could do just as well with one shot from a rifle..

Oh almost forgot! When you do your next pattern test I would like to see 3 seperate plates shot with the same load at same distance if possable. Just for shits and giggles.

[ February 18, 2012, 05:44 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 19, 2012, 09:16 AM:
 
"Nice patterns.. With patterns that tite a shooter could do just as well with one shot from a rifle."
---------------------------------
That is true of course. A coyote shot with that choke/load at 20 yards will look like bloody swiss cheese. I am so old and crippled up that I am not able to do much actual hunting, so I spend a lot of time testing the shotgun. There is a lot of false claims of 70 yards or more coyote killing shotguns if you use a certain Hevi-shot and a certain brand of choke tube. My testing tells me that coyotes killed by shotguns at 70 yards is more luck than anything else. The Kicks .680 is giving me the best patterns with #4 BUCK and Dead Coyote "T,s". I have found that Hevi-shot patterns have a different point of impact than does lead shot. My gun shoots Hevi shot T,s high and left. Some guys are seeing Hevi shot impacting 14"-15" high, others are seeing 14"-15" low. If I decide to use Hevi shot, I will need to dial the spead bead so that the red dot centers my pattern. Even though the Hevi-shot T,s give me an extra ten yards of sure kill range, the extra money they demand for Hevi shot is holding me back. The Winchester Super X 3&1/2" #4 BUCK gets the nod for now.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 19, 2012, 12:02 PM:
 

quote:

---

I have found that Hevi-shot patterns have a different point of impact than does lead shot.

---

I found this to be the same when switching from one type of ammo to the next.. 2 3/4" load of BB's is dead center in my shotgun and 3" Buck is high left with the BB's giveing the best pattern..
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on February 19, 2012, 02:16 PM:
 
Hey Rich;
Do you use anything like a Lead-Sled when patterning or do you just tough it out??
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 19, 2012, 02:38 PM:
 
Koko,

I don't use a Lead sled, or anything like that. I knew that I wanted to shoot these 3&1/2" BOOMERS, so I chose a gas operated semi Auto. This type of shotgun seems to soak up a lot of the recoil.
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on February 19, 2012, 06:11 PM:
 
Maybe you're not so `old & crippled` after all, just punch drunk from the beatings the recoil is giving you.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 19, 2012, 08:50 PM:
 
"I found this to be the same when switching from one type of ammo to the next.. 2 3/4" load of BB's is dead center in my shotgun and 3" Buck is high left with the BB's giveing the best pattern.."
---------------------------------
Copper plated BB's actually do a decent job on coyotes with the correct choke tube. I killed a lot of coyotes with the Winchester XX BB's. I still get upset when I remember Winchester dropping the XX line. I shot a Browning BPS Game gun with iron sights and 23" barrel. Choke was a Hastings .655 which gave me a sure kill range of 45 yards.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 19, 2012, 09:04 PM:
 
KOKO,

I am not recoil shy. I tested four different 10 gauge shotguns way back when. Two different double barrels, a Browning BPS, and a single shot that was a copy of the H&R Topper. That was where I learned that a ten is not superior to a twelve when shooting lead shot. As for the "crippled" statement, I have retained most of my arm and shoulder strength, but the old back and my knees are gone. My stamina has gone south also. Hell, I really should see an eye doctor as well because I can't judge distance worth a crap. Can't even parallel park anymore for fear of hitting another car as I back in there. Don't ever get old KOKO, because if you do you will live to regret it.
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on February 20, 2012, 03:56 AM:
 
LOL;
Yeah, I'm right at that point where I'm beginning to realize that getting old ain't for sissys.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 21, 2012, 09:10 PM:
 
Okay, before I start getting old, I'm going to wait and see what happens to Rich. Sounds like he can't shoot for shit?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 21, 2012, 09:36 PM:
 
"Okay, before I start getting old, I'm going to wait and see what happens to Rich. Sounds like he can't shoot for shit?"
----------------------------
Ya got THAT right!
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on April 11, 2012, 05:56 PM:
 
i had very little intrest in shotgunning coyote till this past winter. tried it a few times in thick cover and by golly, i had some shooting. now i'm thinking of getting a shotgun specifacaly for coyotes without spending a pile of money. does anyone have an opinion on a Stoeger semi-auto. probably won't use it a bunch but they seem reasonable in price and they fit me good.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 11, 2012, 06:39 PM:
 
My grandson has one. I have not used it but my son has. Not favorable opinion, but that's the way it is with opinions. I don't remember the specific issue, but he had some bitch about it. This is a 12 ga, semi auto with cornfield camo.

Good hunting. LB

edit: might have had something to do with loading?

[ April 11, 2012, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on April 11, 2012, 07:10 PM:
 
I had one for several years. It worked fine for me. Nothing fancy, but it worked ok. Put a dead coyote tube in and it shot both BB and #4 buck alright. Killed some dove with it also using light loads. This one had no issues.
Bought a Winchester SX3 and sold the stoger to one of my hunting buddies. He has had no issues.

Note: the SX3 don't killem any better, but I thought I just had to have another shotgun...lol

Still have an old Browning pump that I shoot about as good as any I eveer had.
Kelly

[ April 11, 2012, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: Kelly Jackson ]
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on April 11, 2012, 08:16 PM:
 
I shoot a 30 year old Remington 870 Wingmaster, that has a Hastings 26 inch barrel with a full choke tube and Dead Coyote 3 inch T shot. Shot a lot of coyotes with it .Nothing fancy but it does the job quite well.....

Good Hunting Chad
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 11, 2012, 09:18 PM:
 

quote:

---

does anyone have an opinion on a Stoeger semi-auto.

---

I have the model 2000 Stoeger, I traded a over-under Stoeger for it late this winter...
Shoots where I point it, handles well and appears to be a clone of the Berretta.
The Stoeger has a pretty tight tolerence and may require a box of ammo run through it to get broke in. I plan to get back into duck hunting if work allows for it this year....
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on April 12, 2012, 03:16 AM:
 
Tim. have you shot it much??
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 12, 2012, 03:57 AM:
 
I ran a box of trap loads through it and about 15 rounds of 2 3/4 BB'S and some 3" buckshot.
The BB's patterned the best so that what I've been useing for nite time stands when useing a lite.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 12, 2012, 06:35 AM:
 
I have my grandson's shottie in the safe somewhere, while he's in Europe. Maybe I'll dig it out this morning? I'm pretty sure there is something weird about it, something about the design, but with so many doves, I couldn't be bothered actually looking at it, at the time?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on April 12, 2012, 08:47 AM:
 
Leonard,
Embarrassed to say I hadn't read this thread or i wouldn't have been foolish enuf to suggest I may be able to help you.You've already got all the advice you need i'd say.
For craps and giggles though I'll throw this out.(As background I'll say i shot my first pheasant 61 yrs ago,shot over 200 honkers last year,and it's a rare year i don't shoot 3 cases of 'shottie' shells living here in Shottie heaven.)Here's what i tell the kids i start out with 'shotties'.I have them play 'touch the bird'for an hour or two before they shoot actual shell # one.Touch the bird is simply having them extend their dominant arm out fully and point and follow every bird that goes by.Have them keep swinging til the bird is past while concentrating their finger on the beak.The more repetitions the better.The more variety in bird size and speed the better.They quickly realize those birds are moving right along.
From there they graduate to doing it with an empty shottie and soon with a loaded one.(often clay ones to start)
A bit oversimplified but 'touching the bird' is the best method I've ever used.Try it on your doves.The computer between the ears can be programmed unless it's got a bad virus.
Enuf I suspect.As Bearhunter knows I did start actual testing yesterday but didn't get far.Six shots in with 3 inch 4 buck I found out the factory mod choke on my Extrema 2 had pretty much welded itself in place over the last season or two(first time ever)and it's now soaking in a cup of Sea Foam.
Sad cause i rarely get a calm day here like I had yesterday.Oh well,i only have a bunch of ammo and 4 more assorted chokes to go.I also had forgotten how brutal recoil can be when one actually snugs in and aims.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 12, 2012, 09:31 AM:
 
Sounds reasonable, I could give it a try. As I freely admit, I am not a particularly accomplished wing shooter although I can still shoot tight groups with an accurate rifle and always could.

I have an assortment of 3½" shells and they are brutal. At least when patterning? Maybe I don't need that much for 40 yard coyotes?

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on April 12, 2012, 03:08 PM:
 
DiYi;
Thanx for the tip on `touching the bird`. I'm going to give it an honest try. I suck at wing shooting.............as in, I can do about as well shooting from the hip as the shoulder. I keep trying to aim with the shottie & have little confidence in my ability. Hopefully, this will help.

Just realized; I've taken two pheasants out of the air with a bow, but have never killed one with a shotgun.
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on April 12, 2012, 04:01 PM:
 
i feel i used to be a fair wing shot. than we had to go to steel shot and everything went to shit.
i'll never forget this:. when i got a lab pup about 17 years ago, i took him out in the country when he was about 6 months old. intent was to shoot barn pigions to see how well he would fetch. i had a hodge-podge of shotshell. some 2's 4;s up to 8's. i think i had 28 rounds and knocked down a bird with each shot.i was feeling like King Shit and bragged about my shooting to all my buds. (non believed me). i than went and bought a box of 25 and went out again soon after. shot the whole box and killed 2
anywho, i don't hunt birds much anymore and have'nt for about 10 years. i shoot a 30+ old 870 and for some reason, the last few years i've been short stroking it and blowing follow up shots.
i seen a Stoger semi at scheels for 329.00 used. looks to be in good shape and it fit me well. might go snatch it up if still there and than hear what DY sais about choke tubes and go from there. years ago when we had fox, i shot truck loads with copper plated BB's. not sure what effective range would be for coyotes with them.
probabaly will settle for 4 buck
 

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Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on April 12, 2012, 04:38 PM:
 
KoKo,
With the bow,bet you are instinctively 'touching the bird'.Your computer is calculating it,not you ' 'thinking'it by aiming. Hope it helps.

By the way,kids who learn that way almost always have a great 'follow through' as well which is a good thing.
 

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Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on April 14, 2012, 07:03 AM:
 
Need a few ideas if anyone has any.As mentioned I have my factory mod choke in my Berreta Extrema.After shooting my 4 buck test patterns with that(OK to about 35 yds,getting dismal rapidly beyond that)I tried to remove it without success.A first!!!
A buddy from Mpls,Mn works for the company that makes Sea Foam and on his last trip out here hunting he left me a case of it plus some 'Creep' they make that was supposed to 'creep' into and loosen anything.Long story short=after Foaming and Creeping and heating and...for days it's still stuck beyond tight.
Called him and he called his gunsmith in the Twin Cities(a Jim Kolbe I think he said)The smith said this happens fairly often with screw in chokes,it's impossible in those situations to loosen them,and I would need to secure it,then cut carefully through the choke insert and pry it out.Said obviously thats the end of that choke tube but the barrel and threading etc would be good to go IF done right.He suggested strongly a gunsmith be employed to do it.
Thoughts?Suggestions?
Heck I've never heard of this happening,not to mention hearing its 'fairly common'.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 14, 2012, 07:26 AM:
 
DiYi; Put the barrel in the freezer for a few days and then try to screw the choke out..
If that don't work then take it to a gunsmith...
 

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Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on April 14, 2012, 07:53 AM:
 
Midway sells a choke tube removal tool. Took a look at it on their site and it looks like it should do the job, but for 70 bucks it should. LOL. I have no personal experience with the device, but have talked with others and they said it works.

Personally, I see no way to remove the choke by cutting it and prying the durn thing out. How do you cut and pry without damageing threads in the barrel?
 

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Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on April 14, 2012, 08:23 AM:
 
Thanks TA,will try it.No harm there that I can see.
R Shaw,I agree for sure.That cutting business would be my absolute last option!If nothing else,with that mod choke it's a great gun for waterfowling so may just leave it.I've got another I could try rig up for coyote use.
A very strange deal.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 14, 2012, 08:40 AM:
 
Liquid nitrogen wouldbe the best route if you know someone that has some.. We use it alot for installing piston sleeves but you have to be dam carefull with the stuff or you could loose a finger or hand....
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on April 14, 2012, 09:03 AM:
 
We used to use dry ice to install bearings. Not sure how this freezing would work for un-installing something.
Think that I'll pick up a can of Anti-Seize & hit the threads on my chokes. (Assuming that mine will come out)
And what, you ask, does one do with the rest of the can of the lovely silver anti-seize??
Glad you asked; You keep it in your truck for those special dick-wads that park next to you with the mirrors overlapping or the dildos that think the Handicap Space is just for their lazy asses even though they don't have or need a Handicap Plate. Just a smear under the door handle. Silver anti-seize is no big deal to remove from your hands in the shop.......damn near impossible to remove out in public, though. And it gets on EVERYTHING.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 14, 2012, 09:53 AM:
 
I like to use a trapping lure dumped down the heaters air intake...

For other uses of anti-seize I use it on the threads of the bolt shroud and little on the fireing pin, and just a dabb of it on the backside of the locking luggs and also on the threads of my switch barrels.. good stuff...
 

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Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on April 14, 2012, 10:10 AM:
 
R.Shaw,
Found the Midway tool.Yup,$72 plus they sell just the 'tool heads' for that tool.Tells even my mind a few things:
1.Stuck chokes are in fact 'fairly common'.
2.Some are stuck so bad you may need to replace the 'head'on the tool at times.
3.Their ad says 'gunsmith required'.
All that though tells me somewhere there are Gunsmiths with tools that can solve my problem short of the 'saw' idea.I'd better look around.Would think here in SoDak many would have them since most people,trucks and homes have at least one 'shottie'.
Thanks.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 14, 2012, 11:07 AM:
 
I think I would try some Kroil or a liquid wrench type of solvent.

If you were careful, you might be able to heat the threaded area with a propane torch. A barrel can take quite a bit of heat without damaging. Can't get it red, of course.

What kind of notches does your choke have? My Remington has a wrench with 4 cuts and I think it would be possible to use a small hammer on it as an impact wrench.

I suppose an ordinary "easy out" of the correct size could work, but it would damage the choke. I have one that I use on broken off ½" pipe nipples that would be just about the right size.

Good luck, LB
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on April 14, 2012, 11:11 AM:
 
Almost everything we work on is seized up. With things of same material and thickness try a little heat. Just don't turn it blue.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 14, 2012, 11:30 AM:
 
koko, when you buy the anti seize, and have a bunch left over, could you put some in a baggie and send it this way? I might keep it in the truck for occasional use. I might even use a bit on threads? But, this fancy choke I bought recently was very clear about degreasing the barrel threads before installation. The part that sticks out has a very positive grip area of about two inches and requires no wrench, at all.

Good hunting. El Bee

edit: also, I have to unscrew the choke on the 835 just to stack it in the safe, which I have done a number of times, already. It comes apart pretty good, so far? Mossbergs have a crummy choke wrench, BTW

[ April 14, 2012, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on April 14, 2012, 01:13 PM:
 
I did own an Autoloader shotgun at one time a Remington 550 then I went back to my Remington 870 soon after....lol

Good Hunting Chad
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 14, 2012, 02:40 PM:
 
I don't think you want to be applying any heat to that shot-gun barrel. Heat will soften the metal and if you have a vent rib there is a good chance of disturbing the solder that holds it on as well..
 

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Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on April 14, 2012, 03:12 PM:
 
Well My mech skills are very limited but just tried the hammer approach and only part of my factory choke 'wrench' survived.I'm putting the barrel in the freezer and forgetting about it for awhile.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 14, 2012, 05:34 PM:
 
You should have used the Kroil first, or heat first. THEN impact.

And, I don't agree with TA, you can get away with some heat and we aren't talking about enough heat to loosen silver solder, just enough to un seize threads. Heat works wonders for seized threaded parts.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 14, 2012, 05:53 PM:
 
Sure Leonard I agree you can get by with a little heat. The question is how much and how do you know your not over heating the metal..
I know you can use what they call Temp stick but I doubt he has any and you can't just buy the stuff anywhere...

Usually anytime you get a cartridge stuck in a chamber and it won't tap out with a rod or the bolt won't even open you can just toss it in a freezer..
Freezeing the barrel is the cheapest route to go and if it don't work no harm done.. Any of the other ways mentioned just puts him at risk of damageing something which has already happened....He is'nt set up yo do the work so he should just get someone that is.. Cheaper in the long run..
Not every gun manufacture makes a good strong choke wrench, some are plastic and cheap metal. I think I have one out of five of them that couldbe safely tapped on, the rest I'm sure would break.

At work we have even gone so far to dump Liguid nitrogen on a very large bearing or bushing and got it to come off from the shaft..
I've seen heat used as well and in most cases damage was done to something by pounding on it and sooner or later the tourch had to be used to get it off and then time had to be spent fixing up what was damaged...
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on April 14, 2012, 07:25 PM:
 
Note I said "don't turn it blue"...

The problem with freezing it is it's probably a stainless tube and thicker or at least as thick as the barrel so the barrel will shrink first.

Where as heat will expand the barrel without affecting the tube. Silver solder melts way beyond not turning it blue. The old side by side shotguns were poorly soldered with lead/tin but even they needed 300 degrees to flow so you ain't gonna hurt the metal.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on April 14, 2012, 07:29 PM:
 
Heat expands, cold contracts...
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 14, 2012, 08:10 PM:
 
Yep. And after you remove a barrel from the freezer the outside is going to warm up faster than the inside and hopefully enough he can remove the choke..
 

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Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on April 14, 2012, 08:14 PM:
 
I agree with Tom.

Various metals expand and contract differently. I can understand how freezing an action with a stuck case would work. Brass cartridge...steel chamber.

However, doing the same thing with a steel choke tube and steel barrel would not deliver the same results.

Heating the outside of the barrel would make the barrel threads hotter than the choke tube threads causing them to expand more rapidly allowing the removal of the tube.

I now await Tim's post proving me wrong.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 14, 2012, 08:35 PM:
 
LOL Randy. I don't have to,its up to DiYi...

Question; How do you know its a steel choke in DiYi shotgun. Chokes are made from all kinds of material...

[ April 14, 2012, 08:37 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on April 14, 2012, 09:05 PM:
 
Just a wild ass guess, but I'm betting it's harder than brass.
 

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Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on April 15, 2012, 05:08 AM:
 
Gentlemen,
Sorry if I've started arguments here.Lots of good ideas here that I'm sure a normal white guy could have/would have used by now to solve this lil problem of mine.Sadly I've never been that guy nor have I ever found a tool that fit my hands.I've tried some of the ideas w/out success but put the barrel in the freezer yesterday and despite concern over "heat expands/cold contracts",will leave it today then try again and see what happens.If not,I intend to soak it a few hours in my home brewed 'liquid wrench' and call in my nearest neighbor who basically keeps my tractor and every other piece of equipment on my farm going in exchange for leaving his combine and assorted equipment in my sheds.(and for taking his and other neighbor kids hunting etc)If he can't fix it,I'll find a gunsmith somewhere.In the 10 yrs I've lived here now I've yet to see an 'equipment' problem this neighbor can't handle so my odds there are good.
In hindsight I should have called him in earlier but all this time I've had him and my other neighbors fooled thinking there was one area(guns/hunting gear)I was proficient and knowledgeable in so was hesitant.
Reviewing Cdogs posts on the weather makes one realize how small a problem I've got.Hope he and all in those areas are fine.
Thanks again for the help and I'll update-one way or the other.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 15, 2012, 11:05 AM:
 
I would like to point out, and protest, that Tom stole my suggestion, and credit, of which AR is so impressed with. Have I become almost as credible as TA? Where's the justice? I can fix tractors too, you know? Via the keyboard.

NOT FAIR!
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on April 15, 2012, 02:14 PM:
 
Almost Elbee, almost.
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on April 15, 2012, 05:03 PM:
 
Have to agree with Tom and the others....a little heat would be my first attempt. I keep LN2 around for some applications, but I don't think freezing it would be as effective as the heat. The different make up of the two metals as well as the non continuity of the the union, would make heating the best choice. In other words, heat will transfer through the barrel and the choke tube differently.
As for a liquid penetrant; a mixture of 50% power steering fluid and 50% acetone works the best of anything I have found. Be careful though, it may remove some blueing, and it shouldn't be used in conjuntion with heat (for obvious reasons).

Maintain
 

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Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on April 21, 2012, 04:34 AM:
 
For those interested,the tube is still stuck.Tried the freezing and i think about everything else suggested here w/out success.My neighbor is busy planting and views making a living for his family as taking priority over my choke so it may be awhile.It's presently drowning in another concoction I came up with awaiting his arrival.
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on April 21, 2012, 06:47 AM:
 
what causes a c tube to get so stuck in the first place??
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on April 21, 2012, 07:16 AM:
 
From experience, heat works. And they will take way more heat than you think. I think a lot of the problem is plastic from the wad and fouling getting in the threads. I don't know how it forces itself in there but I have heated them until the plastic literally melted out of there in smoke and liquid. Put the barrel in a vice to do all this. Due to the aerial hunting and sometimes shooting hundreds of heavy loads before cleaning this happens occasionally if we dont remember to pull the choke and re grease it occasionally. On that note, grease your choke tube threads every time you clean your shotgun.
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on April 24, 2012, 05:14 AM:
 
Well, I went ahead & had a cup of 'Speedbead Koolaid' and I LIKE IT!

I did adjust POI a few inches right after that shot. 45 yds with my turkey load, Win Supreme HV #5s, 3.5" 2oz.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 10, 2012, 06:09 PM:
 
Beretta Extema2 with Kicks .690 tube and Hevi-shot T,s at 40 yards.


Fifty yards.

 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 10, 2012, 06:19 PM:
 
17 cal. at 500 yards..



Don't need a shotty if you shoot when they stop to potty.

[ May 10, 2012, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 10, 2012, 08:26 PM:
 
Damn nice shootin' there, Tim. And the bullets didn't even bounce off of that weathered plywood, so maybe they actually could kill something at that range. I imagine that follow-up shots at spinners might be kind of tough, though.
Here's where I have one itsy-bitsy problem with the long lob; In the time that it takes you to walk out 500 yards, find the coyote, carry it back to the stand, & then back however far from there to the truck, I can kill one with the shottie, have it skinned, take a coffee break, & get in another stand.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 10, 2012, 09:13 PM:
 
Hah-Ha-Ha, Timmy has a .17 caliber pencil.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 11, 2012, 03:24 AM:
 
Actualy Koko while your waiting for them to get close enough for the shotty I may have 2-3 already laying dead and in the back of the truck and headed for my next stand while slamming down a cold Dew.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 11, 2012, 08:28 AM:
 
Don't you mean a slushy, frozen 'Dew? What's colder, SD or Minneesota?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 11, 2012, 05:16 PM:
 
I keep one or two laying on top of the defroster between hunts, it thaws them out in no time..

S.D. is about 10 degrees warmer than home...
 

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Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on May 12, 2012, 08:34 PM:
 
Tim that grouping wouldn't do much in 600yrd BR comps you have to shrink that down by a few inches and increase the range by 100 yrds.



But not bad for a little 17 too bad they barely have enough energy left to break paper at those ranges. Thats why I like a 6mm at extended ranges.

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek060.html

[ May 12, 2012, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: coyote whacker ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 12, 2012, 09:19 PM:
 
LOL.. That group was'nt shot by me but by a young fellow who fired a centerfire rifle for the first time.. Just think how it would group in the hands of a pro like me.. Ha ha
The 17 cal bullet can go through a water jug at a 1000 yds, I'm sure you knew that..

It will also do the same amount of damage to a steel plate as my 22-250 ackley.

 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 13, 2012, 05:22 AM:
 
I never had any use for a machine gun myself. If I did decide to get one it would be a Thompson sub machine gun lookalike. I prefer real rifles for coyotes in open country, and shotgun for the thick stuff. Shooting at 500 yard coyotes is mostly hail Mary, hope I hit him type of horse play.
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 13, 2012, 08:43 AM:
 
`It (.17 Cal bullet) will do the same amount of damage to a steel plate as a 22-250 ackely`

Uh...................May have to think about that one for a bit.

Ok......While giving the killer dog it's morning belly rub, I had one of those epiphany things and realized that by that logic, when I shoot BB loads in my shottie, I'm sending little round .177 cal bullets downrange and should be able to do the same amount of damage as a 22-250 ackely on full auto.
No......????

 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 13, 2012, 10:09 AM:
 
Uh.. No Koko..

BB's are round and don't penatrate like a bullet does, plus the BB's are running a little short in vel. and energy..
The pic. of the shot up steel plate shows clearly what a 17 cal bullet will do at the same range as the 22-250 ackley shooting 52 gr. A-Maxs.. Both loads where doing about the same in Vel. At best you would be lucky if the BB's had enough energy to chip the paint off the steel plate at 30 yds....

Rich just take that 25-06 rhino slayer you have and zero it for 100 yds and then shoot at one of your paper pie plates at 500 yds and just aim for the top of the plate.. Bet you can hit it, even at your old age...

Koko just remember once you start giveing the dog those belly rubbs you better not stop or she will turn on you.

[ May 13, 2012, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 13, 2012, 10:15 AM:
 
Well, if both were traveling at the same speed, I guess the .224" 52 grain would have twice the energy as a 30 grain .177"?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on May 13, 2012, 10:45 AM:
 

quote:

---

Rich just take that 25-06 rhino slayer you have and zero it for 100 yds and then shoot at one of your paper pie plates at 500 yds and just aim for the top of the plate.. Bet you can hit it, even at your old age...

---

Really?
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 13, 2012, 11:08 AM:
 
"Rich just take that 25-06 rhino slayer you have and zero it for 100 yds and then shoot at one of your paper pie plates at 500 yds and just aim for the top of the plate.. Bet you can hit it, even at your old age."
------------------------------------
Only a clueless Ass Hat would zero a coyote rifle for 100 yards. Even an old fart like me knows that with my present 200 yard zero, I would need to hold about 36" high to center a pie plate at 500 yards. Since I don't own a range finder, I would need to take 500 long paces out there to set up my target. Since I am too old to walk that far and too smart to be shooting at a 500 yard coyote, I guess I won't bother.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 13, 2012, 12:07 PM:
 
If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a 200 yd zero, should be able to hold on fur out to 300 yds..

I use a BDC dial so all my rifles that have one are zeroed for 100 yds.

If you can't walk 500 yds just use your truck and measure off with the speedomiter..
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 13, 2012, 01:09 PM:
 
Just retrieving data from my memory banks, which can be haphazard at best. I do not recall Mr Cronk telling us about a 25'06? I think he has a 257Ackley and if I'm not mistaken, it is based on the 257 Roberts case? Essentially, the same capacity as 6MM Remington and 7X57Mauser, before blowing out the shoulder. Or, do I have it wrong? Not that it matters, but that case doesn't have the capacity of the '06.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 13, 2012, 01:21 PM:
 
Hmmm............Using the odometer thingy in the speedometer to accurately measure distance for sighting in. Gotta admit, I never would've thought of that one.

Oh, by the way; Let me assure you that copper plated lead BBs will at least chip paint at 30 yards. The foot pounds of all of those little BBs added together becomes pretty impressive.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 13, 2012, 04:26 PM:
 
Leonard,
I actually have two .25-06 rifles, and one .257 Roberts Improved. The Roberts Improved is my favorite coyote rifle, but I still shoot .25-06 now and then also.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 13, 2012, 04:41 PM:
 

quote:

---

..Using the odometer thingy in the speedometer to accurately measure distance for sighting in. Gotta admit, I never would've thought of that one.

---

Thats how we measured distance here on a bedded fox or coyote before the range finders hit the market.
Would get on a road parrell to the animal and then measure distance to next road that we planned to walk in from or take a shot from..
As you walk in just count the steps and subtract..
Its not like trying to put a rocket on the moon and dosen't have to be that exact...

[ May 13, 2012, 04:43 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 13, 2012, 04:50 PM:
 
Okay, I just don't ever remember you mentioning a 25'06? But, I did remember the 257AI because it's a little bit different. What are the 25'06 for, then? Deer rifles? Makes a hell of a decent deer rifle and will drop a coyote's dick in the dirt when necessary.

What's your bullet of choice? I like the 100gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip as an all around bullet, but am using a 96.5 grain Starke just for coyotes, at night.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 13, 2012, 05:05 PM:
 
Leonard,
I have never hunted deer with a rifle, so my own .25-06 rifles are used for coyote whacking. The 100 grain Nosler ballistic tip you mention is one good choice if you are saving hides. I shot a lot of coyotes with a 100 grain Sierra PRO Hunter with good results, and also had good luck with their 90 grain GameKing. Right now I am testing Speer's 87 grain Hot Core, but the jury is still out on that one. Here are a couple photo's of my very first .25-06.



My second .25-06




 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 13, 2012, 05:07 PM:
 
My Mexican Mauser in .257 Roberts Improved leaning on a mangy coyote.


Close up of the Roberts Improved.

 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 13, 2012, 05:52 PM:
 
I like the stock on the first rifle..
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on May 13, 2012, 07:34 PM:
 
I agree. There's some interesting angles going on there and the wood ain't half bad either.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 13, 2012, 08:18 PM:
 
Yes, my friend who built the rifle owned a duplicarver. The wood is genuine walnut, the stock was carved on an original Winslow pattern, and there is a stiffener of German silver inserted up through the pistol grip.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 13, 2012, 08:21 PM:
 
I carried this photo around in my wallet too long, but as you can see, the old Mauser shoots pretty good.

 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 13, 2012, 08:32 PM:
 
I wish someone made a better bullet for the 25 calibers. I wound up with another 25-06AI but my 243AI with the 105 A-max beats any combo I can come up with.

But I still want a 25 caliber in my safe for some reason.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 13, 2012, 08:55 PM:
 
Tom,
I LOVE my .25's, but the 6mm bug keeps biting me. I am wondering if a 6mm/06 A.I. would produce enough more velocity over the standard 6mm Remington to be worth my time and money? Problems, Problems!
 

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Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on June 27, 2012, 02:25 PM:
 
For what its worth , i have both a 6mm AI & 257 Rbts AI . I had a gunsmith friend build both using Shilen match grade blanks. I ordered Clymer floating pilot reamers cut to "my" specs.
The 6mm is probably my favorite , for no other reason than it's built on a Rem M7 action & #2 bbl. I considered a 22-250AI , 25-06 AI & 250Sav AI , all fine calibers and will do what most anyone would want out of them. I have run them warm & hot using Re19, Re22, Imr4350 & 4831. Which one a guy decides on will probably turn out well if done right. I also considered the 6-284 , but at the time i couldn't locate any brass to work with. The 6-06 is a heck of a round , basically same cap as 6-284 and or 240 Wtby . Check them out to get an idea of what the 6-06 , 6-06AI will do.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 27, 2012, 03:00 PM:
 
I don't know? I own a 243Winchester and a 6MM Remington and a 243Ackley. I tend to think the 243Improved is as close to overbore as I want to get. Just how much performance can we expect from a .243" bore? If economy means anything and you do your own barrel work, etc. And, why? Do coyotes require that much killing? Every once in a while, somebody needs to drag us back to reality, even if it is kicking and screaming. Whatever, it's building a dream. Everybody has one.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on June 27, 2012, 03:31 PM:
 
No argument from me Leonard. I honestly think the whole AI craze was caused by getting a good straight min specd chamber, cut by a good smith. Heck the 243,308& 358 wins are already an Improved case to begin with. aka 300 sav improved.
 

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Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on June 27, 2012, 03:37 PM:
 
I had the 6mm AI built so i could hunt varmits & mule deer using one rifle. And it does a kickass job doing both with the bullets we now have to choose from. I have pretty much settled on Barnes X 75's,80's & 85's at 3600 to 3850 fps
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on June 28, 2012, 07:50 AM:
 
I agree that the .243 or 6mm Rem have the best bullets available for the purpose of killing coyotes. I haven't moved past the suggested maximum loads for those calibers to learn when the case and primer begin showing excessive pressure signs. If you can safely load a .243 to shoot 80 or 85 grain Barnes X bullets at a velocity of 3600 fps, then you have the ultimate coyote whacker. I know that I can do that with my .257 AI, so right now the quarter bore appears to be supreme. I think that my model 98 Mausers in .25-06 could also do that, but I just have not tried it with the good, strongly constructed bullets, so I can't claim that they actually WILL do it. Now Kelly Jackson is shooting the little 55 grain bullets out of his .243 at mind boggling velocities (around 3800 I think), and he has been seeing very good results on called coyotes. Never fear for the .243, as it will always rank near the top as a good coyote caliber.
 

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Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on June 28, 2012, 08:59 AM:
 
Rich , when i started loading for the 6mm AI i bought a box of WW factory ammo for fire forming.
I used that brass , searching for and finding safe max loads. The 75gr Barnes X i used was newly released then and a long for caliber bullet, so i paid a lot of attention to bumping the powder charges up to max. When the vel reached 3850 fps i stopped , double checked everything . then loaded and fired those original 20 rds 9 times each over the next 6 months. I still have that box of fired brass, having fired them a total of 17 times.
 

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Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on July 10, 2012, 05:08 PM:
 
Im late to the party. However, 2 3/4 in 4 buck out of a modified or full, depends on what your gun likes, kills em just as dead as anything at shotgun ranges. Or what I consider shotgun ranges.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 10, 2012, 09:46 PM:
 
I just got back from browsing at Bass ProShops. I had a hard time finding anything to buy that I didn't already have, but picked up two boxes of Remington "Viper" LR because that is what turned out to group best in my new Browning Camper. Like I said, I already have a box on hand, plus two bricks of Winchester and six other boxes, but had to have a couple more of the Vipers.

But, here's the interesting part. They had one box of 3" Dead Coyote and I figured, might as well stock up on that but when I got to the register, they rang it up at $52.99 for 10! So, I left it since I like #4Buck better anyway and it's like 6 something for five shells. Fuck Dead Coyote at that price; I have a box on hand anyway.

I'm still thinking that Winchester XX #4Buck with 41 pellets is really good coyote medicine. So, for less than a buck and a half for #4Buck versus $5.30 each for Dead Coyote, it ain't that much better.

IS IT?

Good hunting. Lima Bravo

edit: so why do they get $52.99 for Dead Coyote? How do they justify a price like that. Now, somebody is going to tell me they buy it for ten dollars over at Billy Bob's. I can't win.

[ July 10, 2012, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on July 11, 2012, 07:38 AM:
 
Rich - I put a 26" 12 twist barrel chambered 243AI on that action this summer.

The 55's are really smokin.

Only killed a few coyotes with it so far, but have not been disappointed.

If my other reamer will ever get here, I am going to neck down a 204 and build a BB gun just for the hell of it.

Stay after them
Kelly
 

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Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on July 11, 2012, 01:58 PM:
 
Leonard , if you go shopping at Billy Bobs leave your firearms in the p/u , but make sure "your gun" is loaded & ready for action. The 52.99 you saved by leaving the Dead Coyote shells on the counter can be used towards a brand new pair Of Tony Lamas you should wear while shopping in Fort Worth.

Back to scatter guns, Copper or Nickle plated #4 buck is the best i have found for larger varmits at longer shotgun ranges in 12ga 2 3/4 & 3" regardless of choke size,(EXCEPT EXTRA FULL).
The extra full chokes i have used tend to blow the patterns to hell with holes/gaps at random distances.
 

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