quote:

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But, shooting a coyote between the eyes at 400 yards takes a little more than average accuracy.

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Yeah it does, and it's not something the average, or even waaaay above aveage guy can do on a regular basis in a hunting situation, day or night. Too many variables and contributing factors.

So where do you stop chasing? You can't possibly believe that the loads you've been swearing by for the last 40 years are the BEST, can you? You could take more steps in brass prep, no? Do you check each cartridge for concentricity? Do you charge every case down to the exact grain? On what kind of scale? How many coyotes is that last little bit of development going to net you? How good is good enough?

If a guy is a good enough marksman that refining a load to the BEST, whatever that is, is the big difference maker, he needs to be putting that talent towards setting records in competitions.

I didn't say anything about minute of coyote. Granted, it'll work in a lot of what I do, but I still try to remove as much mechanical error and variation as I REASONABLY can. When I fuck up I take solice in knowing it WASN'T my equipment. Perfect is not achievable. Again, how close is close enough?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 17, 2012, 10:03 PM:
 
Where are you going with this? "You can't possibly believe that the loads you've been swearing by for the last 40 years are the BEST, can you?"

Yeah, I kinda do think that.

I don't check every cartridge for concentricity, but I could. I seat all my hunting loads with a chamber type Wilson seating die and they are consistently within one or two thousandths of dead nuts, or good enough, in my view. And, yes, every charged weighed to the tenth of a grain on a beam scale-I can't help it.

No, there is not much more I could do in brass prep. I do all the weighing and separating beyond reason.

"How many coyotes is that last little bit of development going to net you? How good is good enough?"

Who knows? But I am confident that I have done all I can do to eliminate everything but the human factor in the equation.

"Perfect is not achievable. Again, how close is close enough?"

No, I guess it isn't, and that's the question: What IS close enough? I think everybody will have a different answer for that and I think that is fine. The rules I live by may not be for everyone.

But, who's setting limits here and why do we need to put everyone in the same box? It is what you make it. I don't give a shit what anybody else does but if it makes me feel good, I'll do it without complaint nor will I advocate it for anybody else.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on May 17, 2012, 10:44 PM:
 
Ugh, I deleted my entire reply.

Maybe tommorrow.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 17, 2012, 11:27 PM:
 
I hate when you do that shit!

Well, there's always tomorrow, tomorrow, I love you tomorrow. You're only a day away!

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 18, 2012, 05:10 AM:
 
DAA is THE MAN when it comes to this stuff...
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on May 18, 2012, 05:40 AM:
 
Ehhhh... Used to be "okay" maybe. Just garden variety tinker anymore. Appreciate the vote of confidence just the same though.

- DAA
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 18, 2012, 06:11 AM:
 
Don't sell yourself short, DAVE!!!

Lots of juicy stuff right there...
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 18, 2012, 07:25 AM:
 
I fire form my brass to fit the chamber, and set the sizer die to barely bump the shoulder. Being a velocity nut, I choose a powder from a manual that yielded close to highest velocity in their tests. I load very close to their listed maximum, and if no pressure signs I will go a bit higher than their maximum. I try to seat the bullet so that it is barely off of the lands. Not being the best shot in the world, if I can get three holes touching on a three shot group, then that is good enough. I do like to watch the velocity numbers on my chronograph because I see a plus if my shots yield a lot of duplicate velocities. In my limited experience, I have found that a pencil barrel is more sensitive to changes in my loads than is a barrel of heavier contour. I like Shilen's #3 contour barrels myself.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 18, 2012, 08:31 AM:
 
I seat a bullet to kiss the lands, choose a powder that gives good velocity and find pressure. Test in the middle of summer and if I can get 5 shots at MOA or under I'm fine with that for a hunting rifle cause I can't shoot any better than that under field conditions.

For a Bench gun, I don't have a clue as my guns seem to be as good as I am or better as things are.

400 yards between the eyes at night from a truck, everytime? Wow, I'm way behind...

Oh and I do most of my bench shooting at 200 yards.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 18, 2012, 08:32 AM:
 
BTW, how far apart are the eyes on those western coyotes?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 18, 2012, 09:29 AM:
 
We standardized @ 3½ inches some time ago. Every time? I didn't say that, but I don't take a shot unless I'm pretty confident of success. If you hear the plop, it's sure as hell worth walking out there.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on May 18, 2012, 09:29 AM:
 
Anyhoo...

I wasn't going anywhere, just blathering I guess.

I think I was trying to say that load development can be as simple or complex as an individual chooses to make it and there's always something else to mess with, if you want to. The "best" or the "perfect" load is simply unattainable, IMO. Nothing is static. Good enough is a relative level to each individual and one guy's standards apply only to that one guy.

For example: Last summer I shot a pretty impressive (to me) group from one of my rifles. Do I have the best load? Nope, but I ain't changing a damn thing. Good enough!
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 18, 2012, 09:31 AM:
 
Ooh! Zen! I love it!

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 18, 2012, 10:04 AM:
 
Anyway, forget about me and what I do. This is an attempt to find out what (you, out there) do about your rifle, your load and your practical accuracy. Like DAA, he has wrote it out for all to see, but what part of it do (you, out there) do to make sure you connect?

Everyone will be different. I am interested in what you do because I believe that coyote hunters as a group are fairly knowledgeable and have a certain amount of ability.
(and Zen; you know who you are)

So give it up already!

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 18, 2012, 10:53 AM:
 
I'm going to toss this in, for what it's worth;...... YMMV!!!!

The places that I call & the stands that I choose, I rarely even have the opportunity to shoot over 100 yards. The last time I shot a coyote at 200 yards was years ago & a couple of states away. My go-to boom stick is the shotgun & my long range shooter (50 to 100 yards) is usually the Mini-14 with it's 1/2 minute of coyote accuracy. If I feel the need for more accuracy than that, I have a really sweet Thompson Contender set up as a carbine. I dialed it in at 100 by knocking the centers out of a few clay pigeons & called it good.

My point is, in my case, for my hunting style, the time spent dicking around with rifles & loads to achieve sub-minute of angle would not put as much fur in the truck as the same amount of time spent scouting new areas & fine tuning stand locations in proven spots.

I do admire & somewhat envy guys that can take coyotes out at 300 - 400 & 500 yards, but it's a skill that I rarely need. Besides, this quest for accuracy can be addictive. I knew a guy up in Wash. at the gun club that re barreled a rifle & started from scratch because it wouldn't shoot under 1/2 inch @ 100. He spent the summer at the bench & I spent the summer bowfishing. I still ended up getting just as many coyotes that fall as he did.

Again, this works for me..........if you're out in the wide open spaces, none of the above may apply to you.
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on May 18, 2012, 12:23 PM:
 
I pick a bullet first, based upon what I know, have read, and or heard about it's accuracy and terminal performance. Then I choose 2 or 3 powders that I think will get me the ballpark MV I'm looking for. Primers, I'm a whore. I've always used Remington primers, so that's what I prefer, but if they're not available, CCI primers make the thing go bang too.

Then comes the basic ladder test in .5 grain increments. Based upon what I see on the chronograph and the paper, I narrow it down and do it again in .3 grain increments. Repeat until I've narrowed it down to the powder I'm going to use. Then, if I haven't already come across something that trips my trigger, test charge weights in .1 grain increments. I'm fortunate in the fact that I have the luxury of being able to call friends who have mucho real life experience, and never hesitate to do so.

With my machine guns, I never play with seating depth or concern myself with proximity to the lands. They are what they are. I seat 'em at book or mag length and leave it at that. On the bolts, I may play with it a bit.

I don't weigh brass. I don't clean primer pockets or flash holes except when blowing the case off after the acetone bath following sizing. I meter charges on an electronic combo gizmo. .223 loads, + or - .2 grain, everything else is dead nuts. Why the difference? Just cuz. And the powder I use for the .223s meters so nice, I rarely have any variation. I get into an assembly line mind set and I ain't stopping to fuck around with .2 grain on a 300 yard max load.

My equipment is middle of the road stuff, nothing fancy. I think it's a good match for my barbaric and basic reloading practices.

What's good enough? I strive for 1/2 MOA. Sometimes I get lucky and end up with less than that. Sometimes I run into good enough before I get there and after I've run into damn frustrated.

In a nutshell, that's how I roll.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 18, 2012, 01:00 PM:
 
One thing that a lot of guys have a hard time with. Knowing when he is getting all he can get, out of a rifle barrel. If you have a ¾" barrel, switching primers won't make it a one holer.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on May 19, 2012, 10:50 AM:
 
22 x 47 Lapua
This one shoots good enough. 3 shot groups are good enough for me.

 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on May 19, 2012, 03:13 PM:
 
yeah,but 3toes, can you do it ALL DAY LONG??????lol.
nice group.
i can live with a 3/4" @100 rifle but strive for better. however, some days i just seem to shoot better than others??.
used to go nuts on trying to get all rifles to print 3/8" but realized i was spending to much $ and time and un-nessasarily burning up my barrels. 0nce i hit 3/4", i'm confidant that "most" coyotes under 300 are dead.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 19, 2012, 03:16 PM:
 
What's that load, Cal? What MV?

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on May 19, 2012, 03:22 PM:
 
Leonard, that is a 62 grain Berger at 3820 fps. It takes a CCI sr mag primer and 38.0 grains of Norma 203B to get it there.

That rifle is on a Lawton action and McGowan barrel. 1 in 10 twist. On another note, I think they are out of business anyway, but never buy a Lawton action. The scope mount holes were crooked enough that when I mounted a pic rail for the scope mounts there isn't enough windage adjustment in any scope to work. Tried several rails first and the ended up putting a Leupold adjustable mount to get the scope centered. And it's an ill feeding piece of shit, but it does shoot.

[ May 19, 2012, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: 3 Toes ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 19, 2012, 03:26 PM:
 

quote:

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If you have a ¾" barrel, switching primers won't make it a one holer.

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quote:

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Leonard, that is a 62 grain Berger at 3820 fps. It takes a CCI sr mag primer and 38.0 grains of Norma 203B to get it there.

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I'm shooting the same bullet in my 22-243Middlested. But it's 47.7 grains of H4831 Fed 210M @ very close to the same velocity, around 3810fps.

Good hunting. LB

PS Tim, I do not refine my load and then switch primers at the last minute. If I want a Rem9½, I start with a Rem9½ and see where it goes.

edit: I think the best 3shot group I have seen was about .140". I have not really done much serious bench work with this rig, but like bearhunter said, it's good enough.

[ May 19, 2012, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 19, 2012, 04:14 PM:
 
well Leonard,
How's this for a 400.00 rifle?

 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 19, 2012, 04:24 PM:
 
Here is a closeup of that 400.00 rifle. Built on an old Mexican Mauser action.

 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on May 19, 2012, 04:24 PM:
 
Rich. you save fur??. if so, i think the 85 tsx would be a good fur round in a .257 cal.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 19, 2012, 04:33 PM:
 
Bearhunter,
Are you really from Minnifornia? Nah, you are MUCH to wise for that to be true. Regarding fur, I USED to keep every single one, but not so much anymore. I still search for good bullets that kill without skinning and gutting in the process though. I might just try your Barnes TSX some time soon. If it will shoot tiny groups, it will indeed be a good one.
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on May 19, 2012, 05:02 PM:
 
yeah Rich,fraid so
same state as the great Al Franken and T.A.
I've tried the tsx's in various rifles and have never acieved great accuarcy but have shot some coyotes with them and they perform great. usually exits but small.
for some reason, the 25's seem to shoot the tsx's quite well from those i know that shoot them.

[ May 19, 2012, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: the bearhunter ]
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 19, 2012, 06:26 PM:
 
I should stick with 3 shot groups but just can't...


[ May 19, 2012, 06:31 PM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on May 19, 2012, 06:36 PM:
 
Tom, in a lot of situations more than a 3 shotter is required. I shot a tactical shoot here last year and knew the gun for that had to stay good for a long time, many rounds and much heat so I pounded it hard. 10 and 20 shot groups with a hot barrel. But for my coyote rifles, I treat them like a sore thumb and baby the crap out of them. I am really only interested in the first or second shot from a cold barrel.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 19, 2012, 06:57 PM:
 
I even shoot 5 shot groups with my mountain rifle contoured barrels, I just gotta shoot 5 and keep them all under MOA, usually 1/2 to 3/4 MOA to be happy.

Of course, not counting machine guns all but one of my bolt guns wear factory tubes. The 25-06AI has a 3 groove PacNor but I've yet to shoot it.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 19, 2012, 07:12 PM:
 
Since Cal showed us his dime I thought I would show mine as well..

These kind of groups is what I exspect from a custom job along with a good load and then tested a few more times to be sure.. I even went so far as to shoot a 10 shot group with the rest being 5 shot groups...
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/002-10.jpg[/IMG]]
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 19, 2012, 07:49 PM:
 
3 shots .413 .17 Rem AR factory ammo Tell me again why I need to develop a load.


[ May 19, 2012, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: JD ]
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on May 19, 2012, 07:52 PM:
 
See what you started, Cal?

I said something about a group I shot last summer. I was putting the finishing touches on my 22-250AI and was shooting 200 yards. Usually when I get a good one going I manage to screw it up, but didn't crumble under the pressure this time. Packed up my shit and went home without firing another shot and have no desire to shoot anymore paper with that rifle.


 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on May 19, 2012, 09:02 PM:
 
Well, good shootin one and all!
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 20, 2012, 08:17 AM:
 
Question;
How much (if any) would you guys expect those groups to open up out in the real world of shooting sticks, elbows to knees, or off of truck hoods and still be happy????
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 20, 2012, 08:22 AM:
 
KOKO,
The groups that I have posted were shot while draped over hood of my truck. Does this info help?
 

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Posted by Bofire (Member # 221) on May 20, 2012, 09:25 AM:
 
I have shot a few good groups, won a few contests, rarely miss a coyote, but I do not know if that is because I am careful to make a shot and would rather let an animal go then take a risky shot.
That said; I HATE SHOOTING PAPER TARGETS and hate reloading. I would never try to shoot a coyote or anything else at 400 yards "between the eyes". I'll take the chest/shouldders.
Carl
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on May 20, 2012, 09:30 AM:
 
Is precise equipment of no benefit in field use? Is there no disadvantage to equipment lacking precision in field use?

Is it useful to remove as much potential for error as possible from every possible source for field use? Is allowing equipment error where it need not exist of any concern for field use?

I don't think everyone can answer these questions exactly the same for all conditions. I know in which direction my answers are going to consistently be though.

- DAA
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 20, 2012, 10:47 AM:
 
Koko the only time I shoot groups is for load work up and to find the best load combo, along with a little testing at longer ranges to see what the load is going to do..
Once thats done then all I worry about is the first shot and putting it where it needs to go..
Usually when hunting or calling I use some type of shooting aid weither it be shooting sticks or bi-pods and will at times have both along. I also rely on a position that puts me flat on the ground or sitting on the ground so I can also use my knees for support..
Any shooting done with out stick or bipods will also be done in the sitting or kneeling on one knee position. some areas I hunt I can't use the ground for support so I will take a standing shot but will use the sling for added support or rest the rifle up along side a fence post or power pole...( barricade position)
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 20, 2012, 11:14 AM:
 

quote:

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I would never try to shoot a coyote or anything else at 400 yards "between the eyes". I'll take the chest/shouldders.
Carl

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Well, Carl. That's what makes the world go 'round. Everybody, like Clint said; "needs to know his limitations." Besides, many times shooting eyes, I am more than happy if my shot drops down into the chest as that allows a little leeway in range calculations.

I know some guys that won't attempt a running shot, and they will never figure it out, if failure is a huge obstacle, too big to risk it.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 20, 2012, 12:33 PM:
 
I learned long ago that most folks don't realize that when we shoot a "group", we are trying to learn what that particular load is capable of, NOT what we as a hunter can do in the field. I have shown tight groups to a few people and often get "it's shooting a bit to the left ain't it?" I just smile and shake my head.
 

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Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on May 20, 2012, 02:25 PM:
 
Leonard: I've been busy and just haven't had the time to jump in, but I'll try a late start. Going back to the OCW link, I visited that site a long time ago. I always tried to do the same thing as Dan, the OCW guy, even before visiting his site. I called it charge weight insensitive loads. Many of you will probably call me a heretic, infidel or maybe even something worse because I would look for loads that had good groups that I could be happy with that wouldn't change zero or open up beyond an MOA despite varying the charge weight +-1%. The reason why I would look for these insensitive loads was because I'm both busy and lazy and I like to load off a Dillon. I need loads that can shoot good even when the power charge varies +-1%. I cannot always find a load that will do this with every gun but I've been successful with many of my rifles and ARs. I mean who would want to load for an AR and take all of the steps many of you take. I'm not knocking you, I just have to many irons in the fire to spend that much time and that doesn't take into account my pretty wife that requires attention from me daily. After what I've been thru lately, I feel very lucky to have a great woman. Maybe I'm pussy whipped but what a ....
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 20, 2012, 02:36 PM:
 
I load with a single stage press, and I weigh each and every charge on my scale. I just don't trust the throw a charge and dump it in the case method.
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on May 20, 2012, 03:26 PM:
 
i'll throw charges in my bigger calibers but weigh each one in the small's.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 20, 2012, 04:49 PM:
 
I weigh every charge with the charge Master powder dispenser. With most of the smaller size cases loads have to be a little more exact or you could end up with a pressure spike..
With the larger cases like a 22-250 and so on you canbe off as much as .3 gr. without seeing much if any of a increase in pressure. Most loading manuals show for each load worked up for a certain cartridge to be .5 gr. increase where the smaller case you have to stay around .3 to be on the safe side ..
Since I have a Charge master I just set it up for everything I load..
Another thing on the larger cases is you don't have to have the charge weight exact everytime to have a accurate load. So I agree a little on what Vic does in his reloading tech.

[ May 20, 2012, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 20, 2012, 06:25 PM:
 
Koko, I have no idea what my groups would look like shot off sticks, might be better than offhand but I don't know...

I do practice my long range shooting off sticks. Prone and a bi-pod if the grass isn't a factor.

The bench is just to see what I have to work with.
 

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Posted by Bofire (Member # 221) on May 20, 2012, 07:41 PM:
 




I am not a total klutz with a rifle, do take some real crappy photos tho.!!

I hear ya Leonard, and appreciate the freedom to speak freely on your board. Once in my life I was into that stuff but for me the kill rate did not inrease but the frustration rate did!! LOL the blurry one is a 270 short mag Winchester. that is 3 rounds, both at 100 yards.

Carl

[ May 20, 2012, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: Bofire ]
 

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Posted by sparkyibewlocal440 (Member # 397) on June 03, 2012, 08:07 AM:
 
Hey LB, A little late as normal, just don't check in often enough. One thing for sure, if a guy wants to get the best accuracy from his set up, above and beyond load prep, sight in at 100 yards, an inch- inch and a half, whatever,high at 100 and then shoot work up groups further out, at least 200 yards. 100 yards is child's play. Most folks will have an "eye opening experience" when extending the distance to 200-300 yards. It's when the rubber meets the road baby.
Very good insight and suggestions on DAA's website:
http://www.rmvh.com/Articles.htm
Cheers, Gary
 

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