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Here is the dilemma, I just ordered a reamer from Dave(PT&G) and I told him that I wanted it so that there would be no neck turning. He said I want a .202 neck and .025 freebore for the 30gr bullets. A .202 neck would leave .008 (.202-.194) tolerance for the neck. Is that too much? Seems awful big to me.

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WORD

Listen to Dave!

I was lucky in that he allowed me to pick his brain before spec'ing my .17Predator.

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Seems like I should be entitled to a finder's fee?

I also have some input via email, from he who shall be nameless.Let me find it.....
 

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Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on April 02, 2014, 06:33 AM:
 
The measuring is as follows, .172 caliber bullet, plus one side of the brass thickness(.011), since there is 2 sides, add another .011, for a total of .194. Are we missing something?
 

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Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on April 02, 2014, 06:35 AM:
 
Also, if our measuring is correct, should I call Dave back and tell him that .008 is more than I would like and we will turn necks after all? If so, how tight should the neck tolerances be? .002?
 

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Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on April 02, 2014, 06:37 AM:
 
One final thing for this morning, we don't have a loaded round to deal with as of now and probably won't for another month as the bullets are out about that long. Thanks for the help.
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on April 02, 2014, 06:54 AM:
 
Leonard, I have much to thank you for, but this was, circa 2008? Dave didn't know me from Adam, yet was still gracious enough to help me. Great learning experience!

Aaron, how are you measuring neck thickness?
.011 seems kinda thin, without any turning?

I barely skimmed my resized Lapua brass, down to ~.0125, or the best I could extrapolate on my Redding Case Neck Gauge.

F.W.I.W, I use a .003" neck tension in my other bolt rifles. Little extra peace of mind for magazine fed rounds...

[ April 02, 2014, 07:03 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 02, 2014, 06:57 AM:
 
FAIR WARNING !

MAKE WOMEN AND CHILDREN LEAVE THE ROOM!

First off they need to know what the neck dia. is for the chamber. Lets say its a no turn neck, that should be .198 .. Next they need to take a 17-204 case with a seated bullet and take a measurement, lets say it comes to .196. For a neck sizing bushing they can go with .195, .194 and .193 with .193 being the better of the three choices. In other words .003 smaller than the outside measurement of a loaded round...
If they are making a case from scratch then I recommend two bushings minimum to size the neck down, can be done with one but there is a chance of splitting the neck or crushing it...

P.S. just incase a neck with a seated bullet is the same size as chamber then some neck turning will be needed, .002 0r .003 less than chamber...
Free bore should be at .010 with bullet seated so the base of bullet is at the bottom of neck/ shoulder junction...

signed: (he who shall be nameless)
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 02, 2014, 07:08 AM:
 
Okay, time for a word of caution from an old fart who has been there.

People can get a bit to carried away on this precision shit in regards to a rifle for hunting live targets. Be very careful specifying tight necks. More better to have a little slop, this ain't bench rest.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on April 02, 2014, 07:59 AM:
 
If it were me, I'd find someone with the .17 cal. bullet that you plan to use, and have them send you a couple, so that you can get the seated bullet neck dia. I've got 30 gr. bergers, 25 gr. nagels, and some 20 gr. v-max that I could send ya.
With win. brass, I sized down to .196 bushing and end up with .198 loaded neck dia., .002 tension. If I remember right, my rifle has a .201 neck.
I start with a .219 bushing, then a .212, then the .196.

[ April 02, 2014, 08:05 AM: Message edited by: TRnCO ]
 

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Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on April 02, 2014, 12:09 PM:
 
Aaron, if you're going to single *load*, less neck tension can be desirable for better bench type groups. But if loading thru your magazine box, more neck tension will be required along with slightly thicker case necks. I guess the argument is do you want benchrest accuracy or an accurate rifle that causes no loading problems.

single *load*, not single shot... Sorry bout that

[ April 02, 2014, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: Prune Picker ]
 

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Posted by 92soggy (Member # 4362) on April 02, 2014, 01:32 PM:
 
We appreciate all the help guys.
TRNCO can i get your email or phone number?
 

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Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on April 02, 2014, 01:45 PM:
 
soggy, I Emailed both to you from here at work.
 

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Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on April 02, 2014, 05:01 PM:
 
Thanks a lot for the help TR! I measured the case neck thickness and it varies between .011 and .012 with the majority being .012. This is with new Nosler brass. As far as how we are measuring it, just with calipers, I have a picture incoming.
 

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Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on April 02, 2014, 05:13 PM:
 
So now where we are at is, .172+.024(.012+.012)=.196. So with a .202 reamer neck we still have .006 clearance in the chamber neck total around the case neck(or .003 per side). TR says he has .003 and the unnamed says .002-.003 is the number to shoot for. I'm guessing once we get a loaded dummy round the loaded case will measure a little bigger(.197-.198) than what our figuring comes up with. So is the .202 bigger than what most of you guys like?

[ April 02, 2014, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: Aaron Rhoades ]
 

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Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on April 02, 2014, 05:16 PM:
 
Kelly, what size neck on your rifle?
 

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Posted by Duckdog (Member # 3842) on April 02, 2014, 05:29 PM:
 
If you're looking for an absolute hard number on which bushing to buy, you're not going to get it that way.
If you're collecting parts and components for when the rifle gets done, I'd suggest buying a .193, a .194, and a .195.
One of those will probably get you there, and you may eventually use all of them if you switch brands of brass, or maybe find some thicker necks...etc.

I'm not Kelly, but my 17/204 is a .201 neck.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 02, 2014, 07:58 PM:
 
Bushings aren't cheap. Personally, I'd buy the one I think I need, maybe the middle one and if it's not gonna work go one size up or one size down.

What I am a little puzzled about is where are you guys buying bushings in .0005" increments?

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on April 03, 2014, 03:52 AM:
 
Measuring neck thickness with calibers, as shown, is not an exact science. And I certainly would not recommend spec'ing reamer dimensions based off case necks measured that way.

Here's my advice. If you have ZERO inclination of EVER turning necks on ANY brass, just stick with that "no turn" .202 neck.
By doing so, you will be able to neck down brass from any manufacturer and KNOW that it will reliably & safely function in your rifle. That's what a "no turn" reamer designates.

If you want to mess with going a thou. or two smaller to try to eeek out some extra accuracy, then be advised that the next batch of brass you neck down for that stick might have thicker necks from the factory. THEN...you are fucked!

IMHO, shit...or get off the pot.

If you're really that concerned with accuracy, then pursue it right from the start! Spec out a tight chamber, turn your necks true to fit with minimal clearance, use the right bushing, have your action fully blueprinted/ squared, bolt sleeved, firing pin bushed, etc.

Or, keep shit simple, go with a "no turn" neck, and live happily ever after.

TR, KJ, Kevin, and a bunch of other guys have "no turn" chambers in .17hotrods and I don't get any inclination of them wanting for accuracy.

Choice is yours, but don't overthink it. (that's coming from someone who tends to overthink things)

Good luck!
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on April 03, 2014, 05:45 AM:
 
Yup. I wasn't going to say anything. But since Fred did, I'll just chime in to agree with him.

Calipers are not the tool for the measuring task you are using them for.

And if that is the level of precision you are wanting to pursue, just go with the sloppy chamber and call it good.

BTW... It's a whole 'nuther subject that I don't feel like repeating for the thousandth time, but if you aren't going to turn necks, you'll want to keep the expander with the bushing dies. But they probably aren't going to come out of the box with a .17 caliber expander? Or maybe they will? I haven't looked into buying any of those dies for years and years.

Leonard, about the half thousandth bushings... I use full thousandth size, but turn my necks for a loaded OD of ~.0015 larger than the bushing.

But, that said - bushings are tapered. Turn them over and you have a half thousandth difference.

- DAA

[ April 03, 2014, 05:46 AM: Message edited by: DAA ]
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on April 03, 2014, 06:38 AM:
 
Dave, I only opened my big yapper, cuz it is the same logic that resonated in my brain bucket, when I heard it from you.
Of course, you know that, but these guys might not. Just paying it forward, so to speak...
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on April 03, 2014, 07:00 AM:
 
will try and go by the shop and look at the reamer print for the neck size today
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 03, 2014, 03:19 PM:
 

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TR, KJ, Kevin, and a bunch of other guys have "no turn" chambers in .17hotrods and I don't get any inclination of them wanting for accuracy. (Fred from New Yawk)

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That's what I was trying to say, yesterday. If you want a tight neck, first of all you better be a pretty accomplished and experienced handloader. And, you have something in mind that is heavy on the precision aspect of shooting. Sometimes a hunting application means you have to have tradeoffs, which is where I'm at.

I don't load hot.I don't want split necks or pierced primers or case head separation. I also don't want 44 grains of spherical powder dumped in my action in the middle of the night just because I ejected a loaded round. So I don't jamb the lands. Period. I must suffer with whatever accuracy I wind up with by forgoing all those little accuracy twerks, the one's that potentially can cause me trouble.

Now, I have some tight necks but you know what? I just can't say, with conviction, that that is the reason for my wonderful accuracy.

Put me down for "luck of the draw" if you have a superbly accurate barrel, it makes up for a whole lot of hand loading mistakes and "improvements". Get down on your knees and pray for a super accurate barrel. Then trust some gunsmith to not fuck it up.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by 92soggy (Member # 4362) on April 07, 2014, 05:44 PM:
 
We got the bullets today, thanks much TR.
 

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Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on April 08, 2014, 05:30 AM:
 
good deal.
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on April 09, 2014, 05:50 AM:
 
the neck on my reamer is .201

Sorry for the delay. Been out of town.

LB - Crow Woman says your HOT. I think her eyes may be starting to go.

kj
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 09, 2014, 08:22 AM:
 
Kelly, believe me, being just another pretty face is actually a curse. I prefer women to desire me for my mind, not my body!

And, be sure and give Crow Woman my best, next time you see her.

Good hunting. El Bee

[ April 09, 2014, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on April 09, 2014, 10:02 AM:
 
What an eye opener this thread has been; at least for me. Ive been reloading since I was 14, using a hammer and a set of Lee 12 gauge shotgun dies, and it just progressed exponentially from there. Now I have two Dillon 550s and a Rock Chucker single stage press on my bench, along with the many accessories we collect, case trimmers,bullet pullers,electronic scales, case cleaning tumblers...on and on.
I sat here last night, and from memory, tried to recount every varmint type rifle Ive owned and loaded for, and Im sure I missed one or three, but I came up with 34 rifles chambered in .22 cal or smaller. Probably a third or more were, to some degree, "custom" or high end factory rifles ie: Kimber or Cooper.
Im a bit embarrassed to say, a week ago, if you had tossed me a "bushing" and asked me what it was, I'd have shrugged my shoulder and said no, what is it? Ive never used a neck bushing in my reloading regiment, but have owned some wonderfully accurate rifles, quite a few that were in the quarter inch realm.
My question being, how much more is there to be gained by chasing the perfect neck dimensions to chamber by using bushings and neck turning etc?
Trust me, Im not bashing the thread, Ive learned a lot by listening to this one, humbled me actually, for I thought I was an accomplished reloader. Goes to show, you don't know, what you don't know.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 09, 2014, 10:37 AM:
 
You're way too modest, but thanks for backing me up. Yes, it's the barrel where your accuracy resides.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on April 09, 2014, 04:24 PM:
 
Vic,
Have you ever FL sized a 17 Rem and not used and expander, then measured how much the die sized the brass (the neck mainly)? I think I still have a Hornady FL die that sizes the neck down to about .160 for the ID. Seriously overworks it and caused necks to split. Or you anneal more often.

I have a couple rifles that I have to turn necks. Not really that bad unless you have to do hundreds.
 

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Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on April 09, 2014, 06:10 PM:
 
We got the dies today with .212, .196 and .194 bushings. Took apart the die and removed the expander and dropped the .212 bushing in. Ran about 6 cases through and took some measurements then put the .196 bushing in and ran them through again and measured again. This time, after the .196 bushing the necks measured .195. Is this what you meant, Dave, about using a .17cal expander? We seated 3 of the bullets that we got from TR to 2.26 and measured the outside neck dimension and got .197.
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on April 10, 2014, 04:22 AM:
 
Mr. Vic,
A sizer bushing isn't any magical 'cure all' for a reloader's accuracy issues. However, sizing case necks that have been turned to a uniform thickness, is where a bushing/die will allow the reloader to 'dial in' a particular amount of neck tension. And thanks to the trued, turned neck diameter, that tension will be evenly imparted around the circumfrence of the bullet.

As described in the above posts, for desired 3 thou. tension, simply use a bushing that measures .003" smaller than your loaded rd. neck. diameter.

When sizing cases with a bushing/die, there are two benefits I'm shooting for.
One, that consistent tension hopefully will result in a lower ES, as the bullet is being released from the same amount of grip upon firing. Any improvement in accuracy might not be as evident @ 100yds, but it darn sure will show as less vertical dispersion on target, at increasing distance.
Two, when sized with a bushing (and expander removed), the case neck itself is only being manipulated by a very small amount. And that amount is your choice! The less that neck gets squeezed & stretched back & forth, the longer the life of the case will be.

With traditional resizing, the case neck itself is literally 'squashed down' waaaay tight on the downstroke. Much too tight to get a bullet seated! But, on the upstroke, the expander button comes up thru and re-opens the neck to the pre-determined diameter. And usually there's mucho neck tension present.
The result is, necks being over-worked, no consistency of neck tension, and importantly...potential runout induced by stretching/bending of the necks as the expander pulls up through. Toom uch lube on one neck, and not enough on the other, and you're yankin' up on them necks! Soft brass is gonna give under the strain...

Also, I use bushings to size cases down when building wildcats. I'm using a Redding Type S .243AI bushing die to neck down cases for use in my .22-243Imp wildcat. Just hafta swap the bushing out, and run the cases thru...
Same for my 6.5SAUM wildcat. Type S 7SAUM dies, just with the appropriate bushings to step down, incrementally...

I'm curious, Mr. Vic. With all those wacky sub calibers you've loaded for, have you used any 'custom' dies to load for any?
A custom FL die that's cut for a particular chamber won't have those same 'generic' deficiencies that over the counter FL dies might. A custom die can be reamed to where its not overly-working the necks on each pass. And expanders can be polished to a degree where they pass up thru the necks with less stress.

FWIW, in the Redding FL dies I DO use, I put floating carbide expander balls in them. No need to lube the inside necks, and they pass up thru quite smoothly...
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 10, 2014, 06:33 AM:
 
I've looked in Vic's safe. He appears to be more of a trader than a hoarder. I also think those Dillons were bought primarily for handgun stuff, and you know how accurate they can be?

But, don't think he does not know his way around a reloading room. Shit, his weight room/reloading room is the size of my family room with lots of bench and shelf space. A nice touch is the lion pelt that hangs unobtrusively, (and modestly) behind the door!

All of this stuff is peeling back layers. We might get into something and after a while, decide it's not cracked up for what we thought. In other words, yeah, there's an advantage in turning necks and bushings measured in half a thousandth. And, mercifully, some never visit that affliction and somehow manage to kill a critter, now and then.

Carry on, y'all.
 

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