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Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on April 04, 2015, 08:14 AM:
 
I know the title (might) pain LB a little bit, but, 223's need a little love too.. ;-)

I won't bombard this thread with lots of range data, but I did find an interesting result at the range.

Here's the back ground.. I'm determining optimum load for several of my guns this year, so I've been determining how to do this without wasting $$ and/or burning out my barrels.

I bought three pounds of the new IMR4166; suppose to be low copper foul, and low temperature sensitivity. The magical powder?

So, the OCW by Dan Berry , made a lot of sense to me , so I went ahead and loaded up some 223 rounds to find the "optimal" charge.

OCW

All you guys probably know this, but I developed 18 rounds w/ 6 different charges. Shoot three groups of the "same" charge, and the idea is to determine which powder range shows similar POC; this shows that a powder range is tolerant to some variability..

Anyway, I shot my groups, and I noticed vertical stringing in three of the 6 charges. This was an immediate red flag for me.

What I found was very interesting. The vertical stringing had very, very strong correlation to velocity. See plot below. Remember, groups of three.

caliber:223
powder: IMR 4166
trim: 1.75
bullet: 55 sie HP
jump: 10 mil, I mean .010" (my bad)
primer: 210M



So, I think there's two things going on here:

1) My reloading process sucks (no, say it ain't so)
2) The powder sucks at specific grn weights; the combination of volume, etc, etc, is such that the powder doesn't burn consistently

What do you guys think? Thanks.

[ April 04, 2015, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: Fur_n_Dirt ]
 

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Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on April 04, 2015, 08:33 AM:
 
I think if you pick up a can of Winchester 748, and a box of 55 grain Nosler BTs', you won't have to spend your time fucking around at the range.
Ive owned a dozen or more rifles chambered in .223, from big heavy varmint rigs, to light weight walking guns, and every one shot absolutely wonderful with that combination.....I had always thought everyone knew W748 was "the" powder for that caliber?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 04, 2015, 09:23 AM:
 
Well, gee! What could we possibly add to that from Mr Crusty McNeal?

My contribution might be, use any combination of bullet, primer and powder that didn't quite work out in other rifles.

However, to demonstrate my ignorance, I didn't know about W748? And, I have a pound of that stuff sitting on the shelf, bought with no clue as to what I was going to do with it? Now I know.

I have a 223Ackley that likes Varget and 55 gr. VMax bullets, but have not fired it since I lost a cripple... in front of a witness, no less!

Getting back to the OP, (original poster) and the Dan Berry OCW method that has all the tacticool types enthralled, I am not sure anything has been demonstrated by that (to me) confusing graph? Seems like either 24.6 or 25.3 grains gives the best groups, but I can't figure out the vertical stringing? Probably a "senior thing"?

BTW, the 55 Spitzer is a better bullet, most of the time, over the HP.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on April 04, 2015, 09:42 AM:
 
Don't feel bad LB, I'm also confused by the graph

I agree a "spritzer" 55gr bullet is a better choice in a 223.

Vic's right W748 is a great powder 25-26 grains should get a guy to where he needs to be.

However the 4166 should be fine as it's comparable to Varget ? and I also like Varget in 223. From my experience's 25-26 grains of Varget and a 55gr spritzer shot great in a couple 223's I've had. Of course as well as the W748.

[ April 04, 2015, 09:43 AM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]
 

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Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on April 04, 2015, 11:02 AM:
 
What's confusing?

Hopefully not the graph. It's just ctc vs es. It clearly shows that when es increases, groups go to shit..

I was hoping folks would being saying, oh yeah, at some powder levels, burn rates are not as consistent as other levels.

I shot these using a lead sled type of rest and each shot felt good, but who knows?

Yes, imr 4166 is very similar to varget. I think it's too early dump imr 4166

[ April 04, 2015, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: Fur_n_Dirt ]
 

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Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on April 04, 2015, 11:04 AM:
 
So Dave ,

You tested sierra 55 grn HP versus spritzers?

All bullets measured 55.1 grn, not sure if it's the bullet..

[ April 04, 2015, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: Fur_n_Dirt ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 04, 2015, 12:23 PM:
 
That kinda defines "ES" doesn't it?

Just to pick a couple

24.8gr. 2968fps ES 53.0
25.0gr. 2944fps ES 24.0

That's a lot of difference for two tenths of a grain, but....

then we have 25.1gr. (why, may I ask)?
three feet per second slower and producing a one inch group?

It seems to me that your ES is startlingly different, polar opposites.
3.0, 6.0 and 8.0 followed by some numbers that fly in the face of consistency; 53, 24 and 34.

And yes, the graph part is difficult to understand. But, I'm old.

Normally, vertical stringing would indicate that either your charge weight is inconsistent, or you have some capacity variance in your cases. Question, are the cases weighed or selected by some means?

Good hunting. El Bee

edit: as far as spitzer versus HP. Any testing done by Dave would be valid in his barrel and not much more. However, in reading the tea leaves for many years, yes, the consensus is that the spitzer (I think the number is 1365? but don't quote me) is generally considered by many many coyote hunters to be a better bullet in terms of accuracy and terminal performance.

[ April 04, 2015, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on April 04, 2015, 01:00 PM:
 
Nope, I haven't.

My bad, I was thinking 53gr for some reason ? anyway I believe the 52-53 hp's are better suited for 22/250 and such velocities. Why ? I can't really explain.

Now the Sierra #1390 55gr HP might be a whole different animal I really don't know ?

I guess what I'm really trying to say is the Sierra #1365 spitzer is about as good as it gets for a coyote bullet in 223.

As they say on the "net" your mileage may vary. I'm @ work been tryin' to finish this post for two hours..Lol

[ April 04, 2015, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on April 04, 2015, 01:14 PM:
 
The Nosler 50 gr BT's shoot better, much better, than the 55's do in my 1-12 223AI. They worked well for killing them giant 25lb coyotes out west too.

In my 22-250 AI I have only shot the 55 SBT's and NBT's. Luckily they both used the same accuracy load and shoot almost to the same POI.
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on April 04, 2015, 01:37 PM:
 
I didn't bother reading any of that gobbeldegook. I also never tried Win748, but if Vic says so, I believe it. I will tell you that 25 grains of Benchmark, A Remington small rifle primer, and a 55gr VMax will get you better muzzle velocity that what you're testing. I'm getting somewhere in the neighborhood of 3100 fps (if my old brain recalls correctly) out of an 18 inch AR. And here's a group I shot with that load several years ago checking zero (not with the EOTech).



[ April 04, 2015, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: jimanaz ]
 

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Posted by Moe (Member # 4494) on April 04, 2015, 02:06 PM:
 
For my 223AI I settled on the 50 grain V-Max using H4895. The load averages around 3670 FPS and groups a little over 1/2 inch. I've killed a bunch of coyotes with it.

Last Fall I got to kill a cougar that weighed in just under 100 lbs with it. One shot. I was playing Jackrabbit Distress on the FX5 when It tried to sneak in.

Since the Berger Match Varmints seem to shoot very well in my other rifles and make a mess of coyotes out of my Swift and my 22-250's I'm thinking of trying out the 50 grain bullet in the 223AI.

The first time powder got scarce I bought a lb of W748 but I never got around to loading it in anything. I wound up giving it to an old friend.
 

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Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on April 04, 2015, 04:36 PM:
 
LB, no I did not weight sort this go around.. I am using one brand, Hornady...

So, I checked weights of the two most affending ES powder charges.

24.8 grn..

1st case = 94.6 grn
2nd case = 95.5
3rd case = 97.8

25.1 grn
1st case = 94.4
2nd case = 96.4
3rd case = 97.3

Did I just learn a lesson here?

PS.. Hey Jim, was that a 25 yard group?
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on April 04, 2015, 05:16 PM:
 
Interesting, I'm really curious to hear what others have to say ?

I've never weighed a case in my life ? Been lucky I guess ?

I've never bought Hornady brass either. I used to cruise many forums and such, it seems to me the boys over @ saubier.com used to complain about Hornady brass if, I remember correctly ?

Some of those dudes are pretty anal about small caliber stuff, good guys though.

I'm stuck with the after hours phone. Got home, some guy calls and I go back to get a part for a manure spreader. So maybe, I'm just spreadin' shit..


 

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Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on April 04, 2015, 06:39 PM:
 
I hear that Dave, Ive never weighed a case in my life, nor cleaned a primer pocket, or turned a neck, or wrung my hands over graphs and charts.
Anyone can read a few magazines or look at a few forums and find the powder du jour for the .223. In my hay-day, W748 was it,and I always stuck with it. I used it in .223 and it is a great one for .308 of which I had several. Its a ball type powder which flows and meters well. If I remember correctly I think 26 grains was the magic number. Most all my .223s' shot groups that looked just like Jims, 1/4"-1/2" inch was the norm.
Hell, I even had a Ruger #1B, that I once shot a ten shot group with, that held under an inch with that combination, and a number 1 is a fickle damned rifle for those that have had them.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 04, 2015, 07:00 PM:
 
It would be interesting to know of every rifle, (or handgun, for that matter) that Victor has owned, at one time or another. I get the impression that he is an inveterate "trader" rather than hoarder, because I have casually glanced inside his open safe and there is no evidence of a dozen 223's stacked in one corner.

Good hunting. El Bee

edit: here's a question about de jour, (I probably misspelled that, sorry Dan)

Anyway, I'm thinking that just about the most useful all around powder, at least for the type of things we do around here.

I nominate H4831 with an honorable mention to IMR4350.

I used to load 4831 in my 220Swift, but I admit, my needs are squired towards the larger cases.

[ April 04, 2015, 07:07 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on April 04, 2015, 07:53 PM:
 
Say, remember my run out issues using the Redding dies? For example, I can take a brand new Hornady brass .0015 to .002" run-out and after going through the die cycle, the brass run-out (not bullet run-out) would increase from .004" to .006"!

I finally figured it out (I think). I slowly was looking at the press while it was loading up the die on the down stroke and noticed, this fuckin thing wanted to pull the brass to the side! You want the shaft to pull straight down.. By the amount of side motion, I can completely see the brass canting to one side and tweaking the necks within the tolerances of the die.

I'd bet my left nut that's whats going on..

[ April 04, 2015, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: Fur_n_Dirt ]
 

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Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on April 04, 2015, 08:00 PM:
 
I have 4831 reserved for my 7mm mag

I'm going one more round w/ 4166. I'll be paying particular attention to the brass. If I get similar erratic velocity ES's, I'm switching.

Maybe I'll send it to Jimananz so he can shoot the bottles with his small groups..

[ April 04, 2015, 08:19 PM: Message edited by: Fur_n_Dirt ]
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on April 04, 2015, 08:27 PM:
 
Varget seems to work pretty well, H4895, RL-15, H4350, and Benchmark.
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on April 04, 2015, 10:20 PM:
 

quote:

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PS.. Hey Jim, was that a 25 yard group?

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Busted. 26, actually.
 

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Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on April 04, 2015, 10:23 PM:
 
You have me nailed Leonard. I was a trader for sure, not so much now days. It allowed me to play with many different rifles, handguns and various calibers.
I can remember one night where my old pard 20 gauge and I had around 13 firearms laid out on my gunroom floor, half or so his,the others mine, some handguns, most rifles. It took a few hours, but those 13 firearms were traded in one night.
You got me scratching my head on the number of .223s' Ive had, it's been around a dozen different ARs, and the bolt and single shots, I'd have to take a few days to remember.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on April 05, 2015, 03:27 AM:
 
I've had a few 223's as well and started out with W748, thought it was great till I borrowed Mikey's Ohler. Fell in love with Benchmark then Mikey showed me TAC. Been using it for years now but always looking at new powder. a new powder I'm gonna try is Leverloution or whatever they call it. It appears to be knocking H335 off the velocity mountain without being temp sensitive according to reports I've been reading.

Charts and graphs make no sense to me, speed kills and I've had very few guns that didn't shoot their best at full throttle.

Most useful powder? RL15
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 05, 2015, 05:47 AM:
 
20 Gauge. Seems like a decent guy. Vic, you probably have known him for a long time? How does he get so twisted and how can your friendship endure? Did college do it to him? I don't know anyone that far left. I don't know any lefties.

Good hunting. El Bee

Well, there was my nieces husband from Australia. He was anti American until he moved to Phoenix! Surprise, actually.
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on April 05, 2015, 06:42 AM:
 
Vic's trading is legendary.

This is a no shitter, story.

I ran into Jack and some cowboys in a Wilcox restaurant that were working for Jack, Vic knows the rancher by the old "rattlesnake crafts". We are shooting the breeze talking about cougars, coyotes, good looking women. Typical conversation. Anyways this young fellow, I think his name was Bill?, tells me he traded Vic something for a 22-250 he had when he was working on the ranch on the border (Douglas Area). I don't want to name too many names or locations, but Vic took my bro and I there once. You made me remember that with this thread.
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on April 05, 2015, 06:52 AM:
 
Have loaded all kinds of silly cartridges for AR duty.
After messin' & experimentin', found it advantageous to cut the bullshit and keep the task super simple for a brass much in' machine gun...

1. Pick your bullet
2. Seat it to cycle @ mag. length (< 2.260" coal)
3. Peruse manuals for powders that net the most velocity
4. Run a ladder to determine pressure & speed for each candidate
5. Back off a safe amount. Load five & accuracy test
6. If it groups </= 1" @100yds & nets good speed, USE IT

ARs beat up brass, and you'll lose your share in the field. So the notion of comprehensive load work up for my ARs quickly became lost.
As Tom said, find the powder that's net the most fps, run it hard, and have fun!

Benchmark, H335 for ~50s, Varget,TAC for 65gr+...
 

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Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on April 05, 2015, 08:46 AM:
 
Leonard; politicians, and their politics are a dime a dozen, hundreds of the bastards groveling to keep their place and seek re-election.
Friends on the other hand, are a commodity to me, I don't have many. There is such a long history, and number of adventures and hunts with the few friends I have, that it is very easy to keep one area of disagreement out of any conversations, when we have so much more to talk about.

[ April 05, 2015, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: Az-Hunter ]
 

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Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on April 05, 2015, 09:02 AM:
 
Well said Vic.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 05, 2015, 09:34 AM:
 
Ranch, Douglas, border? Yes, been there.

But, McNeal is still Coyote Central.

You know, my son-in-law hails from a well-to-do family in northern Kalifornia, Tiburon, which is just about as "Tony" as it gets, and he appeared to be liberal? I attended his bachelor party, and there were a number of fraternity brothers, including a couple Gays.

Well, that was twenty-five years ago. I have since been informed by my daughter that he is quite conservative! He even asked me about buying a Sig handgun from a cop agency that was getting new ones. I told him to go for it, but don't know if he did? In a conversation about suitable home protection: he discounted any revolver because they lack a safety. Huh? Just shows how little he knows, but he's coming around, wants to go hunting with me. Obviously, I am not a Crusader.

So, (point being) there's always hope for our friend (and member), 20gauge.

Good hunting. El Bee

edit: wait a minute! This thread is about a 223 AR?

[ April 05, 2015, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on April 05, 2015, 09:48 AM:
 
Dan; you took me down memory lane...I remember that particular trade, it was an old Socko 22-250 with massive roll over comb stock, which I had whittled down to fit a shooter from either side. Traded it for a pretty nice LC Smith 12 gauge SxS shotgun.
 

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Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on April 05, 2015, 09:50 AM:
 
You guys go reminisce , I'll be banging my head on this rcbs press..
 

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Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on April 05, 2015, 10:05 AM:
 
There's really not much to fuss over on a .223 for coyote? It's just one of those cartridges that seem inherently accurate.
Like mentioned, between W748, Benchmark and Varget, you don't need to play with any other powders.
Example; many years back,I traded for a bulky piece of shit H&R single shot, heavy 24" barreled rifle. I whittled down the cumbersome stock to suit my taste, cut and crowned the barrel to a modest 20", and camo painted the whole mess.
First load I used of course was 55 grain Nosler BT, on top of 26 grains of W748, only load I ever used in it and it would print 3/4" groups with boring consistency.
I just can't imagine spending much time at all pouring over load data, powders, bullets and testing on a .223? When it comes to reloading for a rifle cartridge, it's a "gimme", one of the easy ones compared to the more finicky calibers out there now with all the various wildcats etc?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 05, 2015, 11:13 AM:
 
Or, put it another way, as I already indicated. I always used those components that I wasn't quite pleased with, in 223 and never had accuracy problems. Pretty ho hum cartridge though. I'll probably never own another one?

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on April 05, 2015, 03:33 PM:
 
Listen man, I can't see your setup and I've never used Redding dies, but if it looks like your cases are being pulled one way or the other, check your shell holder. Make sure it installed properly, make sure you're getting the cases mounted properly. I spin my cases as I bring the press down, don't ask me why. Nevermind, I'll tell you, simple, and I mean SIMPLE way to find center on the downstroke. I'll bet my right nut it ain't the press. Don't have much use for 2 anymore.

I tried to tell you before a good and consistent technique is the key to any mechanical procedure. A tool can take the finest setup money can buy and still turn out junk. Setup and operation are the weak links.

[ April 05, 2015, 03:39 PM: Message edited by: jimanaz ]
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on April 05, 2015, 04:54 PM:
 
Quote.
I slowly was looking at the press while it was loading up the die on the down stroke and noticed, this fuckin thing wanted to pull the brass to the side! You want the shaft to pull straight down.. By the amount of side motion, I can completely see the brass canting to one side and tweaking the necks within the tolerances of the die.
----------------------------------------------
Other than what Jim said. I'm guessing here, but wonder if the cases are lubed correctly ?
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on April 05, 2015, 05:16 PM:
 
Don't take this the wrong way, Dave, but no. If your shoulders are kinking or cases sticking, then you have a lube issue. I'm only saying this so furrydirty can cut to the chase. I won't say that it never happens, because I'm sure it does, but the chances that his RCBS press was bored off center far enough to cause the differences he's seeing are miniscule.

He needs to concentrate on the most likely culprit, and that's the human factor. Resolve one issue at a time, and I will almost guarantee you, it's operator error. No offense intended, it ain't for everybody.
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on April 05, 2015, 05:37 PM:
 
Gotcha' I re-read what was said. Now, I'm really confused ?

What he's saying is sure something, I've never experienced.
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on April 05, 2015, 05:58 PM:
 
Before I retire for the evening

Mucho' full after the 2nd round of a fine Easter meal. I noticed this by Fred.

If it groups </= 1" @100yds & nets good speed, USE IT

A lot to be said right there.
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on April 05, 2015, 06:13 PM:
 
Dude, I hear ya! I firmly believe it's a generational thing. These days it's more important to read things that are www popular, and ignore what some old has beens are trying to tell you. You know the drill. I was a hell of a lot smarter than my dad until I became a man smart enough to realize my mistake. Again, fur, no offense intended, cuz I get it. He came to the right place. All that remains is if he's openminded enough to accept what he's offered here.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 05, 2015, 06:41 PM:
 
Just to show yall that everybody is frustrated and trying to help, I will risk Jimanez getting the vapors by bringing up he who shall not be named. And an email exchange not long ago.

MY REPLY: That might be the problem with this guy. He never did it before and has nobody to help him and he is starting out with an exotic cartridge and making everything more complicated than it needs to be.

BTW, yes, glad to be rid of Sara Brady.

-----Original Message-----
From: Timothy Anderson <XXXXXX@hotmail.com>
To: nbosin <nbosin@aol.com>
Sent: Sun, Apr 5, 2015 6:50 pm
Subject: RE: Well.

For the head bangers having issue getting there brass necks straight or bullets seated straight..
1. Screw die down into press to desired depth
2. Raise ram so shell holder puts pressure against bottom of die. ( you can use something for a shim if not seating die down all the way, like some washers .)
3. Turn down locking ring and lock if so desired.
4. die should now be centered with the shell holder and everything should come out with very little run-out.
5. if you still have run out then repeat steps above and adjust die a 1/4-1/2 turn..

[ April 05, 2015, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on April 05, 2015, 07:06 PM:
 
I'm in the mood tonight, so I'll humor. That insight...purely genius. Thanks, dimwit...er I mean Tim. I can't imagine how we get along without his wisdom here, but I'll tell you that since his silencing, he's taken to having long, drawn out, conversations with himself about dogs over on another board. If it wasn't so funny, it'd be sad, but it's Tim so who gives a fuck?
 

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Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on April 05, 2015, 07:36 PM:
 
I'm already getting fan mail, huh?

Jimanaz has responded 5 times in this thread, so I'm convinced he cares.. I'll listen.

Might take a little time, but I'll figure it out. Plan is to go back and repeat w/ 4166. In the next couple of weeks.

Ps. I lube only with empirical and I have thrown out the other shit away..
 

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Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on April 05, 2015, 07:54 PM:
 
So I made a simple video. Seems to convey my concern..

I am pushing shaft with my thumb and u can see the amount of motion of the shaft with respect to the pin. This is the amount of travel the shaft does on the down stroke and looks like the brass is being slightly cocked in the die..

Utube video

[ April 05, 2015, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: Fur_n_Dirt ]
 

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Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on April 05, 2015, 08:12 PM:
 
I have to ask; after all the various suggestions given by those who know the .223, and the powder it likes to run on...why the obsession with that gawd damned 4166 powder?
I'd pour it down an ant hole and torch it, and run and get a can or Benchmark,Tac,H335,Varget or my favorite W748, and never look back?
I can promise you; your running down a path that will eventually lead you there anyway.
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on April 05, 2015, 08:14 PM:
 
How to cure that: Stop doing it!

Seriously, that Rockchucker is a $150 piece of machinery. It's going to preform well if you let it. It's going to fuck up if you force it. (I could get the pistons in your truck to do the same thing). Stop overthinking everything, and try operating well within the specs. I give up!
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 05, 2015, 09:23 PM:
 
I'm a little baffled by his video? it's much too close up, but if what he is demonstrating is real, then something is wrong in the body bushing that holds the ram? I have three presses and they all show a fair amount of play in the shell holder, but his looks very rigid, no wiggle of the cartridge. Don't know what the hell is going on but it just looks weird?

As far as the powder, at today's prices, if he can get it to work then I don't see a problem? However, wasn't it bought for the 22-250AI?

Fur, if you don't shape up, we might have to send Jimanez over there, and you don't want that! I'm pretty sure he's bigger than you, and the first thing he will do is scare you to death! And finger out your problem, in way less than a minute.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 07, 2015, 08:24 AM:
 
All quiet on the western front....

I'm waiting for an explain?

Why is he pushing the ram with his fingers and why is it moving sideways? Not right.
this: Utube video

Good hunting. El Bee

[ April 07, 2015, 08:25 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on April 07, 2015, 12:31 PM:
 
I won't leave you guys hanging...

I called RCBS tech support and of course they thought I was crazy to accuse their press of doing any wrong. I may have to check myself in the funny farm?

I'm not imagining it, when the press comes down (puts tension in the brass), it kicks over to the left. The video was demonstrating the amount of slop. When the press comes down, that is the amount of slop. Now, how much of this really effects run-out? Still trying to figure that one out. But I'm dumping this thing like a girlfriend gone bad!

Last night, I went over to Sportsmans to check out presses.. I was fondling all of their presses, the girl behind the counter must of thought I was a perv..

The Rock chucker is definitely a MORE stout and bad ass press. I didn't think the explorer would be so different. They also had the RCBS Summit press which moves the dies , not the shell .. The internet says that RCBS presses made 30 years ago are better. Who knows?

I almost pulled the trigger on that fancy RCBS summit press when I saw the highly rated Redding Bob Boss on the shelf.

I mounted that thing on the bench last night and it works as sexy and it looks. I got kinda of giddy actually.. The shaft has virtually no movement. Makes the explorer perform like a piece of junk.

Time to do some testing.. The RCBS shell holders are very loose in this press and not convinced its ok. I'm getting a 223 redding shell holder hopefully today. Guess I'm working from the bottom up.

Stay tuned.

[ April 07, 2015, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: Fur_n_Dirt ]
 

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Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on April 07, 2015, 12:42 PM:
 
Vic,

With high temperature extremes in AZ, seems a temperature insensitive power is best to stay on target.

IMR 4166 is one of them , using 2015 techology.

That W748 power is not. That was part of my thought process anyway..

[ April 07, 2015, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: Fur_n_Dirt ]
 

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Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on April 07, 2015, 01:02 PM:
 
I'll be damned; Im born and raised in Arizona, and have been using W78 in the .223.243 and .308 since I started loading for them, and have never had a single "heat sensitive" problem.
That whole heat sensitive problem is half bullshit as far as Im concerned. If a guy leaves a dark ammo case sitting on the dashboard of the truck in the summer, in full sun or sitting in the sun during a prolonged prarrie dog shooting safari, I'll buy a possible problem.
With responsible and common sense ammunition storage and toting around in the truck, Ive never had nor heard of any kind of problem.
I get wanting to use the latest and greatest components, but some aspects of shooting and reloading can be kept to "what works", and there is no need to reinvent the wheel.
 

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Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on April 07, 2015, 02:49 PM:
 
Good info Vic! Thanks..

Seems W748 is as elusive as Varget. I swear, its like a second hobby trying to find powder.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 07, 2015, 03:33 PM:
 
I also have always wondered about all this "temperature sensitive" bullshit? Maybe it's just something dreamed up by us anal types? But, for the life of me, I have never understood the concern.

However, if there is any doubt, I do like to check my zero on a serious hunt. Sometimes, you have to move a click or two one way or another...so what? Now, if a gullible person buys powder thinking he never needs to check his zero, regardless of the ambient temperature, that's just stupid.

In any case, it's never a factor when I buy powder. I'm just not sold on it as some kind of BFD.

Good hunting. El Bee

edit: PS if FUR is saying that there is a problem with the RCBS press, that would be almost a first, as far as I know? And, if it's defective, RCBS will take it back, I'm pretty sure of that? What are the odds? New reloader buys a defective press!

[ April 07, 2015, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on April 07, 2015, 06:28 PM:
 
Ok, looked @ the video. It would seem the wobble on the ram is excessive.

Mine doesn't do that and it's a Lee cast press about 12-13 years old.

I haven't fondled a Big Boss in a few years, if they're still the same, it's a pretty impressive press. If'n that don't cure you're problem not sure what will ?

RCBS Explorer. Never heard of that one ? Might need to get out more ?
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on April 07, 2015, 08:11 PM:
 
Ok I watched it just now, dude you need a new press, or maybe an old one if that is a new one. My rock chucker has no slack whatsoever.
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on April 08, 2015, 03:14 AM:
 
Yep, my Rockchucker don't do dat.

Can't know about the return policy from wherever you got that fault press, but RCBS CS has been very good to me in the past.
If things don't go well at the store, maybe holler at them, and ask if you could upgrade to a 'Chucker?
 

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Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on April 08, 2015, 04:57 AM:
 
as far as the temp sensitive powder goes, those of us that shoot colony rats in the summer, it is a concern, especially for a guy that is fling lots of ammo. and then jacks another round in the chamber and then decides to let it sit and "bake" in the chamber before engaging back into the action.
For casual shooting, coyote calling, just don't see it as ever being an issue.
 

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Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on April 08, 2015, 05:47 PM:
 
I'm happy to report that my issues are resolved!

After putting on a new redding shell holder and Hornady die set, to the new press, my brass run-out went down to .0005 to .0015 on used cases. No shit! Verified with 6 cases in a row..

AZ tech out!



[ April 09, 2015, 05:41 AM: Message edited by: Fur_n_Dirt ]
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on April 08, 2015, 07:34 PM:
 
Dude: That press is sick..


 

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Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on April 09, 2015, 10:36 AM:
 
Thanks Dave..

Seems Photobucket is having a bad day, can't see this pic!
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 09, 2015, 10:51 AM:
 
Fur, I'd really like to see a video of that RCBS press, in operation or not. I said before, that closeup of movement just doesn't explain much. I want to see WHY !

Thank you. LB

edit: PS is that die in above pic a Hornady lock and load?

edit: Just asking. Why are you not bolting that Redding press down? Or, using all the holes provided?

edit: when are you going to remove the priming arm?

[ April 09, 2015, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on April 09, 2015, 10:56 AM:
 
Im scratching my head over the priming system on that Redding, but I can see another tapped hole in the press body, so maybe there is an operation Im not envisioning?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 09, 2015, 11:00 AM:
 
It might swing backwards, over the top?
 

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Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on April 09, 2015, 11:19 AM:
 
Yeah; I see that possible operation, but it look to have no "wiggle" room to finesse the primer home?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 09, 2015, 01:04 PM:
 
The cast press part appears to be slightly overkill, compared to the ram, itself? You figure there is probably a slot for the primer apparatus to nest into, so it doesn't strike me as overly robust?

They have changed their color to look more like RCBS, or what?

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on April 09, 2015, 04:03 PM:
 
Lb,

edit: PS is that die in above pic a Hornady lock and load?

Yup, that's the sizing die. Overall, a lot value in these dies for the price. The seating die is very cool.

edit: Just asking. Why are you not bolting that Redding press down? Or, using all the holes provided?

My fastener was not long enough for that hole; need to go to ACE. At the time being, its using 2 of the three mounting holes.

edit: when are you going to remove the priming arm?

Not impress with the seating arm. Flip the arm and place a single primer in the cup. Put brass in the shell holder and make the ram go down. The primer comes up underneath the shell holder and puts the primer in...

I already had video of the explorer press moving... here you go.. Not the same as being there..

video of POS explorer
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 09, 2015, 06:58 PM:
 
Well fuck. I give up. You are filming the results, we already saw that.

I want to see the ram and the bored hole in the body of the press. You already demonstrated that there is movement as the case enters the die. There shouldn't be any, in any press I have ever seen.

Therefore, either the ram is defective and not perfectly round, OR the drilled hole in the press body may have slipped in the holder. This would cause an oblong hole, something that can easily happen should the clamps come loose. But then, that press body would be thrown in the trash by Q.C. Should have never made it out the door.

Don't you wonder "why" you have movement?

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on April 10, 2015, 07:55 AM:
 
I'm not flexing the shaft with my thumb, so the tolerances of the shaft and/or hole in the press are loose!

The new press made a 25% decrease in run -out using RCBS shell holder and redding dies. The combination of new press, new redding shell holder, and new Hornady dies fixed the problem. Life is good again..
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on April 11, 2015, 08:56 PM:
 
Fur,

Is that press the Big Boss ?

I might be going thru some press envy ? there is nothing at all wrong with what I have, but, you know ?

The wife and daughter wanted to go to Boise tonight for shopping and dining. I haven't been to Boise in awhile, so figured, I should be a good husband and dad, so I went with the girls.

I hadn't been to Cabela's in long time. My daughter came in while the wife did other stuff. I wanted to look at presses, none were on display ?

They had Hornady in a box, seemed kinda light compared to a Chucker ? I was ready to buy something ? you know when ya get in the mood !!

Anyway, got kinda derailed on that, when I saw a new Salvage 22/250 with Accu-Stock made me think of you, for a AI build. $388.97

I'm full from Chili's better rack out amigo's
 

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Posted by Brent Parker (Member # 4354) on April 15, 2015, 11:04 AM:
 
Vic,

Your slipping, had a pair behind the house pestering the dogs, made a stand last night and killed them both. 12.5" .223 both close 50 and 75 yards. Trapper is coming along good. Will try to stop over this week and pick your brain.
 

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Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on April 15, 2015, 05:21 PM:
 
Dave,

Food, shopping, and family.. Sounds good to me!

Did u end up buying that Savage?

Yeah, that is the big boss. Great press for the money! Only around $175.00..
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on April 15, 2015, 07:26 PM:
 
Ok, thought that was the Big Boss. I mentioned ealier. I handn't fondled one in quite awhile, last I looked they were Indeed quite impressive.

Nope, haven't bought anything yet. Almost pulled the trigger Saturday night. I'm so indecisive sometimes !!

To be honest, I'm not a big Savage guy, yet the price is tempting ? I can't argue the fact, they shoot out of the box. Might be tempted to buy one and gamble to have the chamber punched out.

My wife just recently bought a "vintage" travel trailer, she wants to go camping now, as long as the RV is the way she wants. (edit) were going to fix up together. My coffee can money is draining fast !!

[ April 15, 2015, 07:31 PM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]
 

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Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on April 17, 2015, 10:35 AM:
 
I got to say, its been a good day.. Did three stands this morning, called a badger and a coyote..

Anyway, I just back from the range and did another 18 total rounds making groups of three at .2 grn increments.. Results are not so bad considering a really heavy trigger , a shotgun scope, and chamber that deforms brass run-out to .005" on every shot.

I was trying to validate the trends of the previous dataset, but didn't really work out. My vertical stringing is gone, but my ES differences between the rounds were the similar, but at different charge levels. This tells me loading inconsistencies or powder burning differently..

I went to great extents to make perfect rounds this time. Weight sorted brass, bullets, and power to +/- .02 grains (new digital)! My lengths should be to +/- .001"

I think I need to try other powder at this point to see differences. This IMR 4166 is not bad, my best group was .464" which is not too shabby considering the gun. If I could get consistent groups under .5" I should be happy..

Maybe I'll make some more at 24.7 grns and see if its repeatable.

One thing I don't like is that half of these loads are in compression! Can't get high velocity out of this powder.

I could stop here, but I'm still interested in if I can do better... why not.






[ April 17, 2015, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: Fur_n_Dirt ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 17, 2015, 11:18 AM:
 
I'm SHOCKED! SHOCKED!

In three pages, I don't think it ever dawned on me that we are discussing what looks like a Model 24 combo gun?

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on April 17, 2015, 12:29 PM:
 
I thought u knew my coyote gun? That's the Baikal M94..

Awesome little gun and perfect gun for AZ hunting. I basically shoot the shotgun barrel 8 out of 10 times on coyotes.

This year , going to try and shoot 223 barrel a little more to bring down costs!

[ April 17, 2015, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: Fur_n_Dirt ]
 

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Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on April 17, 2015, 02:16 PM:
 
Oh yeah, I have to use the large orange dots or else I can't see the dot with my shotgun scope!
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on April 17, 2015, 03:48 PM:
 
Man, I live in the same state, hunt the same coyotes, and will tell you with serious resolution, that ain't the perfect calling setup ANYWHERE. A single shot shotgun is almost ludicrous. How many coyotes do you fail to recover each year, Fur. I don't save 'em either, but I like to make 'em dead so my conscience doesn't bother me. In the brush we call, I run an automatic and STILL lose more than I care to. Knowing they're gonna die and seeing them dead is a line in the sand, I suppose.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 17, 2015, 04:54 PM:
 
Well, not perfect in my opinion, either. But, if he thinks it's perfect for what he does and how he does it; who are we to argue? One thing that is beyond dispute, for those that have been around a while; the "perfect coyote rifle" evolves.

Anyway, if you still can't crack 3,000fps with compressed loads, then yes, try another powder. The whole idea of temperature sensitive powders in a rig like that is a little silly.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on April 17, 2015, 05:22 PM:
 

quote:

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But, if he thinks it's perfect for what he does and how he does it; who are we to argue?

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