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Author
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Topic: You get what you pay for...
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted August 15, 2007 11:13 AM
I could just kick myself. Despite good advice, I bought a cheap scope.
Yeah yeah, y'all told me so.
Now I am regretting that decision, as I look at a world too foggy to shoot through.
I gotta give BSA their props though, the RD30 held a zero well, the 5moa dot covers up too much of a small target, but it did stay put.
For $25, I barely got about $25 bucks worth out of it, before it died.
The middle of a bear hunt, a couple miles from camp, in a jungle, is a bad time to have your rifle become useless.
The Olympic National Forest, one of the only temperate rain forests, is a true torture test though. It's not the first scope I've seen come back to camp in a fog (or not pointed at the bullet hole anymore).
Looks like I am just going to have get an intermediate eye relief scope.
There's no way I can do any serious load development, without crosshairs. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
To add insult to injury, about the time I noticed my scope beginning to fog, the black granite stone paint on my stock began to fail. Thrashing, crawling, and falling, through wet brush in the rain was too much for it, rubbing it nearly down to the primer everywhere but under the shellholder on the buttstock.
The Limbsaver recoil pad I added is a little undersized, and I need to reshape the tail end of the monte carlo, from what I cutoff for the pad... but I had planned to wait until after hunting season.
Looks like the need for paint will push those plans forward, and the need for optics will bench my only hunting rifle, in the mean time.
Crap! ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
Krusty 
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 15, 2007 11:28 AM
God Krusty. That is such a rookie mistake. Especially under your conditions. You think people pay a thousand dollars for a scope just so they can say they paid a thousand dollars? That BSA scope belongs on a BB gun. This ain't your first rodeo in the Internet, how many times have you read advice about quality optics and that you get what you pay for?
Okay, end of rant. Good luck. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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csmithers
unknown comic
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posted August 15, 2007 12:12 PM
$25! For a scope? They sell $25 scopes?
Is it a length of PVC with two magnifying glass lenses in it?
If it were made for a BB gun it would have probably held up better than one made for a centerfire.
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JD
HONORARY OKIE .... and Tim's at fault!
Member # 768
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posted August 15, 2007 01:55 PM
quote:
You think people pay a thousand dollars for a scope just so they can say they paid a thousand dollars?
Yes! for the most part. Although I could see where big game hunters would feel a little more secure with one.
$25 dollars won`t cut it but $1,000 scopes aren`t necessary for the most part.
I always thought BSA stood for.... Bad Scopes for All.
I actually tried a BSA on a pellet gun, just as well unload the gun, grab it by the barrel & fling it at the target, you`d be much more accurate that way.
Sounds like you`re $25 is all used up Krusty, oh well, go a few (several) notches higher on the next one, at least you`re out in the field wearing things out. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Jason
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What do Obama & TA17Rem have in common........both are clueless asshats!!!
Posts: 1456 | From: NE. | Registered: Dec 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 15, 2007 02:12 PM
Well, shit, JD. Your advice comes a bit late. Now what?
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted August 15, 2007 02:54 PM
I originally purchased the scope, for my 10/22, after moving the Bushnell 4x12AO to my Mossberg.
The Ruger didn't/doesn't shoot that well, out of the box, so I didn't figure it needed much in the way of quality optics.
I had $25 and a nephew who wanted to shoot my rifle with his cousin (who uses my brother's 10/22). And we had to stop at Wall*Mart on the way to the range anyway.
How could I say no?
(*Red's boy thinks it's the coolest thing ever)
Then one day on the trap line, I realized I didn't need to aim, with the barrel of my Ruger stuffed through the cage wire... and decided to take the Mosin-Nagant to the range, since I hadn't shot it in a long time.
And as much as anything, I sorta wanted to see if the BSA would break?
I was able to work my way through a few bullets, and several loads.
At least figuring out, with a more consistent point of aim than the battle sights, what it didn't like. For sure.
It lasted a half dozen trips, to shoot paper, or more.
Eventually, inspired by the fact that I could readily put ten shots of ten in the boiler room out to far beyond any coyote I have yet called (or shot at and missed), I made the mistake of taking it into the woods.
Leonard,
People buy thousand dollar scopes, first and foremost, because they have a thousand dollars.
I don't. I bought a $79 rifle for a reason too.
I'm not very good at shopping for gun stuff, but it seems to me my choices of intermediate eye relief scopes is fairly limited.
In hindsight, if I'd known what I know now, I would not have purchased the rifle I did.
My plan has been to replace the red-dot with something better, but lots of other more important things come up.
Considering I haven't felt like hunting, upgrading my hunting rifle was way down on my list of priorities.
Good thing too, because it's not going to make it back up top anytime soon.
When and if I do upgrade/replace, for the Mosin-Nagant, I'm sure I'll end up closer to advice offered by JD, Vic, and the like.
It won't be at the upper end, but it won't be at the bottom end either.
I should sell the 10/22, and get a scope with the money.
Krusty
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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JD
HONORARY OKIE .... and Tim's at fault!
Member # 768
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posted August 15, 2007 02:58 PM
Hell Leonard, take it back & exchange it for 40 of those BSA scopes, That should work.
Or were you refering to using a BSA on a pellet gun? You confuse myself sometimes.
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Jason
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What do Obama & TA17Rem have in common........both are clueless asshats!!!
Posts: 1456 | From: NE. | Registered: Dec 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 15, 2007 03:37 PM
No, you got it right, the first time. Now, I'm stuck with them. They prolly ain't worth spit?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Norm
Knows what it's all about
Member # 240
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posted August 15, 2007 04:32 PM
Krusty, sorry to hear of the challenges. All scopes fail at some time... in the conditions you have to hunt in there....
The real question... did the failure of equipment, cost you any good shots?? Doesn't sound like it... Good luck in the equipment upgrade.
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Carpe Diem
Posts: 778 | From: Phx AZ | Registered: Oct 2003
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted August 15, 2007 05:20 PM
Ive had a couple of bsa scopes(Bareley See Anything).both held up well and held zero with major abuse ,fog is not a big concern in the desert not the best but for the $75.00 to $80.00 I paid for them not bad. as said above most all else are probably better.You really do get what you pay for with optics.
PM
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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
Posts: 4188 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted August 15, 2007 06:57 PM
Norm,
Yep, you got it, the real answer is... on about 497 of 500 stands, I have had no need for a firearm or a scope, at all.
And I still didn't have any need for one, over this last weekend.
Thanks for solving my problem. lol ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Krusty
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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Bofire
READ MY LIPS!
Member # 221
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posted August 15, 2007 08:32 PM
Krusty,
If you are interested I have a Leupold VX-1, 3X9 X40, gloss finish,duplex cross hairs, condition as new, I might even have the original box. Cabelas lists it for 219. new.
I'd trade it to you for a call. If you think you might want to lets negotiate in private.
Carl
[ August 15, 2007, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: Bofire ]
Posts: 322 | From: Wild West | Registered: Jul 2003
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted August 15, 2007 10:26 PM
A few things;
One, I cannot use a standard eye relief scope.
The action on my rifle is not round or true, it was hand ground in a hurry.
A regular scope base cannot be mounted to the action.
There is a side mount, but it is not very well thought of. It makes feeding shells into the magazine difficult, and empties are ejected straight out the top, and into the scope. And it would require a new bolt, or a fair amount of machining of my bolt, for the handle to clear a conventionally mounted scope.
The PU sniper scope mount is decent, but doesn't fit modern scope tubes. To set my rifle up as a PU would cost in the neighborhood of $500.
Thanks to everyone who has offered the use, or trade, of a conventional scope.
That's mighty nice of y'all.
Two, I cannot use a pistol scope.
The eye relief on most pistol scopes, on average, is too long for the scout mount I have on my rifle.
I need an intermediate eye relief scope, or one with infinite eye relief (ie. a red-dot).
Three, does the benefit outweigh the risk?
As Norm states, all scopes will be pushed towards their limits of failure, in the conditions I hunt.
Is it worth risking hundreds of dollars, instead of risking less, especially in a high risk environment?
If "all scopes" are doomed, here, how do I justify spending a lot of money on that scope?
Thanks, again, for everyone's input.
Krusty
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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JD
HONORARY OKIE .... and Tim's at fault!
Member # 768
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posted August 15, 2007 10:53 PM
Well heck Leonard, if your using a $1000 scope on a calling rifle it`s no wonder you always win every contest hunt.
Seriously, if you have one, do tell.
I`ve peered through a Swarovski a few times & I suppose you might say it`s a tiny bit better than the bargain basement scopes that I use.
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Jason
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What do Obama & TA17Rem have in common........both are clueless asshats!!!
Posts: 1456 | From: NE. | Registered: Dec 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 15, 2007 11:17 PM
Yeah, I used to say that when I was your age. But, as they say in the gun mags, the true test is under low light conditions, and I'm a night hunter, so ...superb optics cost more, that's the way it is.
Krusty. All scopes won't fog under your conditions. But, you are right. Hard to justify putting quality glass on a pos rifle. Maybe you would be better off with a Williams aperture sight? Never saw anybody with so many problems!
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted August 16, 2007 12:54 AM
So many problems?
I had the original front sight come loose (out of the box), staked it in place, and shot a ragged hole at 50 yards.
Now, the Red-dot fogged, after most of a season of trapping, plenty of load development, and a hard weekend of bushbeating in a monsoon.
That's two more problems than I wish I had, but that's not "so many" is it?
Red's Burris Fullfield, covered in rain on the outside, wasn't any more likely to hit anything that day.
In fact before the fog set in inside my scope, we compared, and I had a better shot picture at the time.
My rifle isn't a pos, it's actually one of the nicer examples of what it is.
With all of the metal in nearly "as new" condition, and a very fresh clean bore.
Townsend Whelen said it was one of the finest rifles and cartridges ever designed (in a 1924 NRA Magazine article). In many ways, my M-44 is better, than the Model 91 he was referring to.
Name a better rifle, new in the box, for under $100. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Neither Williams, nor Lyman make a peep/aperture sight for my rifle.
Personally I can't stand a peep sight, we had one on the Mini, and there's one (Lyman) on the Springer.
My original plan, of the True-Glo 2x red-dot, with it's infinite eye relief, is looking better and better all the time.
It's probably leaps and bounds better than the BSA, has twice the magnification doubling my comfortable shooting distance, and is almost cheap enough to use in a "disposable" manner.
If it could stay dry inside, I would be back in business.
Thanks again for the help though.
Krusty
P.S. Though again, knowing what I know now, I wouldn't buy the M-N... I'd throw down twice as much (or so), and get a Mauser in 6.5 Swede.
[ August 16, 2007, 01:08 AM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted August 16, 2007 05:09 AM
quote:
and a very fresh clean bore
That's a common mistake that way too many once a year hunter make. Unless you are going to:
Hunt big game at close range
or
Sight in your rifle bly cleaning after EVERY shot
The rifle won't hit in the same spot with a clean barrel as it will with a dirty barrel. If you want a rifle that will consistanty shoot in the same spot, foul the barrel before hunting with it. That way any follow up shots, will hit in the same place as the first shot.
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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scruffy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 725
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posted August 16, 2007 07:59 AM
Krusty, if you ever want a non disposible scope for that environment for that rifle you might check the nikon buckmaster 1x20 rifle scope ($170 at swfa.com) wich lists eye relief as 4.3"-13". It has no batteries and should hold up well in your conditions given there simplicity.
later,
scruffy
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Git R Done
Posts: 361 | From: south central Iowa | Registered: Nov 2005
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JD
HONORARY OKIE .... and Tim's at fault!
Member # 768
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posted August 16, 2007 08:10 AM
Leonard, night hunting, now you`ve hit my week spot, I forget that you night hunt & if I could hunt from a rig like you guys I imagine I would eventually talk myself into a top notch scope but for practicle purposes on average guns on the average day of hunting,I just don`t think they`re needed. I could be wrong, maybe we all really do need one.
I suppose I`d really start a stink if I gave my opinion of Leupold scopes.
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Jason
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What do Obama & TA17Rem have in common........both are clueless asshats!!!
Posts: 1456 | From: NE. | Registered: Dec 2005
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted August 16, 2007 10:54 AM
Tim,
I meant a "fresh clean bore" in the sense that when the bore scope was run down it, it didn't reveal any scale, rust, or pitting.
There was no trace of copper in the very sharp lands, and the gunsmith said he thought my rifle had never been fired.
Scruffy,
Admittedly, I don't know much about scopes. But the eye relief on that scope is a wider range than any other I have ever looked into, is something else sacrificed to achieve that?
A 1x scope doesn't really "thrill me", either, that was the biggest shortcoming of my red-dot.
It limited my shots to about 100 yards, because I don't feel confident about shooting a small animal beyond that.
But thanks for the heads up, that's a scope I hadn't seen or heard of before.
Krusty
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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scruffy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 725
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posted August 16, 2007 02:04 PM
As far as I know nothing is sacrificed.
Here's the nikon website for this scope:
http://www.nikonsportoptics.com/product.php?group=16&subgroup=10&product=6460
When I recommended the 1x scope I didn't realize you were shooting small animals with it. I assumed coyote to deer sized game or bigger.
How much eye relief in inches are you looking for? Would 6" be enough, like the shotgun "cantilever" scopes? For instance a bushnell banner 1.75-4x32 cantilever scope with 6" of eye relief ($89.99 at cabelas)?
Or are you looking for more of a scout scope? Leopold makes a 2.5x28 FXII scout scope, with 9.3" of eye relief, kind of pricy though at $260 (swfa.com).
http://www.swfa.com/p-3642-leupold-25x28-fx-ii-scout-scope.aspx
Burris makes a scout scope also, 2.75x20, with 8.5-14" of eye relief, heavy duplex recticle, for $205.95 (swfa.com).
http://www.swfa.com/p-8093-burris-275x20-scout-scope.aspx
The negative for the scout scopes is the narrow field of view at 100 yards. The burris has 15' and the leupold has 22'.
I know it's above what you probably want to spend, but just sharing what I found out there. Maybe it'll help.
Personally I use a millet sp1 reddot on my 22mag. It's a 3moa dot, smaller dot than the bsa you were using, and the millet fits in regular 1" rings. If you decide to get another reddot, a smaller dot will help with smaller targets. The 2x42 truglo you mentioned has a small 2.5moa dot, so that and the 2x magnification will definetly help and sounds like a good choice.
later,
scruffy
[ August 16, 2007, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
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Git R Done
Posts: 361 | From: south central Iowa | Registered: Nov 2005
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted August 16, 2007 03:53 PM
Scruffy,
Thanks again for your help.
The Nikon and the Burris are new to me, but I'd seen the Leupold before.
To me, the boiler room of a coyote is a small target.
Once a year, I might shoot at a deer, but my rifle has killed more rodents than anything else (besides paper).
I'm not exactly sure, what eye relief I need, partly because that varies from scope to scope.
The length of the taper on the bell end of a scope, would have to be subtracted from the total distance from my eye to the rear ring (and offset rings could change that).
I'm terrible with numbers, but I want to say 10-11" was the minimum (making me stuff my nose right up to the back of the bolt, to catch sight of the Leupold and taking it out of the list of choices).
Simmons makes a scope that had caught my eye at one point... but I got so confused, I couldn't decide, and made a rookie mistake.
Krusty
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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scruffy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 725
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posted August 17, 2007 06:51 AM
Ok, well just messing around, I found the following that might fit the bill:
$150 - 200:
Burris 2x20 handgun scope, eye relief 10-24, FOV at 100 21', weight 7oz, plex recticle, $165
http://www.swfa.com/pc-8091-194-burris-2x20-handgun-scope.aspx
Same scope with "posi-lock" to lock adjustments, $198
http://www.swfa.com/pc-4542-194-burris-2x20-handgun-scope.aspx
Burris 4x26 handgun scope, eye relief 12-20, FOV at 100 11', weight 9oz, plex recticle, $200
http://www.swfa.com/pc-4545-194-burris-4x26-handgun-scope.aspx
Nikon 2x20 monarch ucc handgun scope, eye relief 10.5 - 26.4, fov at 100 22', weight 6.7oz, nikoplex recticle, matte finish $200 (gloss is $190)
http://www.swfa.com/pc-1926-49-nikon-2x20-monarch-ucc-handgun-scope.aspx
$100-$150
Simmons 2x20 prohunter handgun scope, eye relief 9-17", fov at 100 21.5', weight 6.75oz, truplex recticle, $100
http://www.swfa.com/pc-2299-50-simmons-2x20-prohunter-handgun-scope.aspx
Simmons 4x32 prohunter handgun scope, eye relief 11.6-11.8", fov at 100 15, weight 8oz, truplex recticle, $100
http://www.swfa.com/pc-2301-50-simmons-4x32-prohunter-handgun-scope.aspx
Weaver 4x28 classic handgun scope, eye relief 12-18", fov at 100 8.29', weight 6.4oz, dual-x recticle, $150
http://www.swfa.com/pc-2338-386-weaver-4x28-classic-handgun-scope.aspx
I doubt a variable magnification handgun scope would work, eye relief wise, could be wrong, but I'd guess based on the numbers a fixed power handgun scope would work. And the simplicity of the fixed should also survive better in your environment, plus be lighter weight.
It's been fun searching to see what's out there. It's been awhile since I researched handgun scopes. And with a 44 in the safe, maybe I'll get one, who knows.
later,
scruffy
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Git R Done
Posts: 361 | From: south central Iowa | Registered: Nov 2005
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted August 17, 2007 11:28 AM
Scruffy,
Dude, above and beyond!
Thanks again.
I'll definitely go into the next purchase better informed of my choices.
You're obviously way better at shopping for gun stuff than I am.
Krusty
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted September 08, 2007 04:34 PM
Well, I got my rifle back together.
I have the tailstock smoothed out and matched to the pad, and all repainted (with a coat of clear "liquid plastic" over the top, to make sure it's waterproof this time).
When I went down to Sportsman's Warehouse to meet Kokopelli, I bought the TruGlo 2x red-dot.
It's leaps and bounds better than the BSA. The 3MOA dot is not only smaller, but way cleaner than the 5MOA "flare" in the BSA.
They had a good selection of red-dots and holosights, but only had one pistol scope at all, a $299.00 Leupold.
I put the 2x on my 10/22 as a test, since I had the BSA on it in the past.
I am not thrilled to the moon with the optics, but it does shrink groups sizes down considerably, by having the target appear twice as big.
For a .22 rifle you'd shoot grouse with, a turkey gun, or in my carbine jungle world, this could work out well.
I'm still want to get a EER scope, but this gets me back in the woods, with my own rifle.
Krusty
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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