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Author
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Topic: Something to ponder.
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Doggitter
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Member # 489
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posted June 02, 2005 11:02 PM
Copied from another board.
From the DEC
The large canid which resides in New York is a true species; they are not a hybrid. The proper name is the Eastern Coyote, Canis latrans. Coyotes and dogs theoretically can interbreed to produce what is called a ‘coydog'. However, these crossbreeds have a reproductive cycle of dogs, not coyotes, and will give birth at times of the year when the pups cannot possibly survive (i.e., January). In addition, there are behavioral differences between dogs and coyotes which prevent crossbreeding from occurring. Coyotes want to mate with other coyotes and not with dogs. Coyotes are actually more likely to prey upon a domestic dog instead of mating with it. It is in this manner that dog genes are prevented from entering the gene pool of true coyotes, maintaining the two separate species. Coydogs occurred at the leading edge of coyote range expansion during the 1950 to early 1970's. The occurrence of a coydog would be an extremely rare event in New York today.
Posts: 273 | From: Oregon rain forest | Registered: Dec 2004
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2dogs
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posted June 03, 2005 05:24 AM
Dogggitter,
Read that & other similiar info, some time ago. This topic, is quite interesting to me. This cross-breeding, does take place, IMO. More often than some scientists think/believe.
Personally, I "believe" much of what scientists/Biologists say on a given subject. However, I wonder how much "field-time"(actual-experience}collecting physical specimens. As well as whether their conclusions they come to. Are "geographically" {focal}ie; state or {generalized}ie region/country, when they form their "total" opinions.
There can be a wide gap, between science & experience. This seems to be the "Grey area" on varying opinions.
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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Cal Taylor
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posted June 03, 2005 06:35 AM
I have never seen a coydog of any kind. But I have always heard that the Blue Lacy breed of dog has coyote in them. I have some coyote pups here again this year that I caught the other day, maybe I should grow one up and try to cross it with one of my dogs. My kids have a Welsh Corgi that will breed anything. Maybe I can raise some short legged coyotes. That would be a funny looking critter.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
Posts: 1069 | From: Wyoming | Registered: May 2003
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2dogs
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posted June 03, 2005 07:35 AM
Cal,
Corgi-ote, That'd be a funny looking critter ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) . Might not have to lead'em so much, eh ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) .
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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Doggitter
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posted June 03, 2005 06:10 PM
When I read this thing it struck me as almost a joke just for the simple fact of how absolute the arguement was presented. The blanket statement type errors. "cannot possibly survive","differences between dogs and coyote which prevent crossbreeding". Never say always.
Posts: 273 | From: Oregon rain forest | Registered: Dec 2004
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Byron South
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posted June 03, 2005 10:03 PM
I'm with Cal on this. I have never seen what I would suspect as a coydog. I think it would be a very rare occurance in the wild. We have lots of stray dogs and coyotes, but have never seen a cross. Coydogs can and have been created under controlled situations.
Cal,
I have a new Blue Lacy pup, and you are correct in that they have coyote in their blood line. They are said to be a cross between greyhound, scent hound, and coyote. The breed has recently been ratified as the state breed of Texas. For more inforation on the breed you can go to LacyDog.com
Here is a couple of pictures of my pup (River)at 6 weeks. He is now 10 weeks old.
Byron
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"Coming to the Call" predator hunting videos. Volumes I, II, III and IV. Order two or more and pay no S&H www.comingtothecall.com
Posts: 313 | From: Texas | Registered: Jun 2003
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2dogs
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posted June 04, 2005 05:53 AM
I've read by 1-author, that a "coydog" is sterile. Also read 2-authors, saying their not??? But all spoke of different breeding cycles & spoke of the male(coydog or feral dog} not helping rear the pups. How can they say that with certainty. Without actually, studing a pair in the wild. One coydog & one coyote paired-up. As well as a feral-dog & a coyote paired-up???
None of these authors, actually admitted seeing/studying this scenario. Just gave their opinions.
I have personally seen a handfull over the yrs. That IMO were not "all" coyote. Mostly Coyote body shapes, but different shaped heads & very large(over 50lbs). A couple of them, looked to be mixed with wolf.
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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Cal Taylor
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posted June 04, 2005 06:56 AM
Damn nice looking pup, Byron
I had a Blue Lacy for a while. She was an ok decoy dog, but got snakebit, and just never was quite the same afterwards. I don't know why, but it really took the fire out of her.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
Posts: 1069 | From: Wyoming | Registered: May 2003
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varmit hunter
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posted June 04, 2005 08:21 AM
Can't type very long at this time(Surgery Thursday). Coydogs usually occur when Coyotes first move into a new aria. That occurred here in the early 80's. I came up on a Coyote bitch moving her pups and managed to get three of them. They append to be half blue healer. Two had one blue eye the other both eyes were blue.
These were very strange animals. I had to destroy two of then before they were two years old. The third razed three litters. She would keep the pups divide up into groups of three. If I found them, she would move them immediately.
Will try and find pictures and post more later. I still have two of her offspring from when she bread with a Rot.
Beautiful pup Byron. The two big dogs you saw when you were here are quarter Coyote.
Ronnie
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Posts: 932 | From: Orange,TX | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
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posted June 04, 2005 09:36 AM
It's like this, (at least as I see it) until it slaps you in the face, it does not exist.
I have observed thousands of pure bred coyotes since 1968, and was rightfully scornful of those that even mentioned a mix between dogs and coyotes.
I never saw one, ever.
Of course, that was only after 34 years, or so? Then, I killed a coyote that looked normal, except when her tongue rolled out of her mouth. Pure black, almost a purple color. The whole inside of the mouth. Like a Chow. Something to ponder.
Then two years later, I killed a long and lanky animal that had coyote color, except he was quite a bit bigger, and had a short coat, in the middle of winter. Oh yeah....and his ears were coal black. Actually, a nice looking animal, but it changed thirty-some years of opinion, right there, on the spot.
There was no other explanation, and I have had time to ponder the question. Not the breeding cycle, or how rare they might be; just the simple fact that they do (indeed) exist. Now, I have to build on that startling development. From a personal perspective.
Good hunting. LB
PS I kept the ears, still in my freezer in the garage.
[ June 04, 2005, 09:37 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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The Outdoor Tripp
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posted June 04, 2005 09:49 AM
Jeez Leonard. How old's your freezer?
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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The Outdoor Tripp
www.theoutdoortripp.com
"All great truths begin as blasphemies."
Posts: 805 | From: Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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Doggitter
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posted June 04, 2005 10:47 AM
Anyone from around New York that can add to this?
Posts: 273 | From: Oregon rain forest | Registered: Dec 2004
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Byron South
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posted June 04, 2005 11:10 AM
Cal,
Thanks. He is eager to learn and getting the obedience training down pat, along with a few hand and voice comands.
Ronnie,
Thanks.I remember them dogs. Hope you can find the pictures. I'd like to see them. Hang in there my friend.
Leonard,
How many coyotes do you think you have seen over the years? How many do you suspect were crossed with dogs?
Byron
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"Coming to the Call" predator hunting videos. Volumes I, II, III and IV. Order two or more and pay no S&H www.comingtothecall.com
Posts: 313 | From: Texas | Registered: Jun 2003
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Melvin
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posted June 04, 2005 12:02 PM
Wolf,coyote and dog will mate,it's a scientific proven fact,even though it is rare. I have personaly never seen a cross between dog, or coyote, but believe a couple i have taken were a cross between the canadian timber wolf and coyote.I think if you would look at the size of the head and muscular build of the 55lb.coyote i posted earlier on another board,you can see that it seems to be a cross breed,"between coyote and wolf"..now this is my judgement,but you can make your own.
Posts: 661 | From: PA. | Registered: Apr 2005
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NASA
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Member # 177
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posted June 04, 2005 12:29 PM
There is only ony way to resolve this. Coyotes have a DNA code and domestic dogs have a DNA code. There is a discernable difference. A cross of these two animals can easily be proven with a simple DNA profile. All we need is a tissue sample of a coydog suspect. Leonards freezer is a good start. Then contact a forensics lab (http://www.dnacenter.com/forensic/animal.html) for shipping instructions. Simple enough. I'll ante up the first $10 to cover expenses. Anybody else want to do more than speculate?
Posts: 1168 | From: Typical White Person | Registered: Apr 2003
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The Outdoor Tripp
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Member # 619
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posted June 04, 2005 12:42 PM
NASA,
I'm with you. Ought to be simple answers out there and DNA testing is the best bet in my opinion.
I'll chip in ten bucks.
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The Outdoor Tripp
www.theoutdoortripp.com
"All great truths begin as blasphemies."
Posts: 805 | From: Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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2dogs
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posted June 04, 2005 01:04 PM
Last winter, I spotted a very large "rust" colored varmint with a very wooly/scruffy pelt. He looked all coyote, except his head. We seen each other about the same time.
I put my spotting scope on him, et zoomed in. He was pretty large, around 70lbs or so. He took off Northbound in a rolling picked cornfield. I drove around the section a few times. Never seen him again.
I spoke with the farmer. Who said, "I seen him up real close" "Scared the hell out of me". He thought it was a wolf. His head didn't look "wolf" to me.
Hope to get a crack @ him or atleast a pic. This coming winter.
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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Melvin
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posted June 04, 2005 01:04 PM
Somthing i would like clear up to some is the difference between the bush wolf and the timber wolf. Most canadians know what the bush wolf is and also some of you. There are some that think you are talking about another strain of wolf,but it is no other than the common coyote. I have spent much time in the canadian bush, 'as they call it', and got familiar with both animals while hunting the black bear and fishing remote lakes...'Spending time with the nicest people i ever met', learned me a lot about both animals and that they do interbreed on occasion.
Posts: 661 | From: PA. | Registered: Apr 2005
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Melvin
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posted June 04, 2005 01:14 PM
check this out
.http://www.greenapple.com/~jorp/amzanim/cross04a.htm
if you go to this link,you can see pictures of coyote and dog cross breeds
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
A coydog, or dogote as they are sometimes called, is the hybrid offspring of a coyote (canis latrans) and a dog (canis lupus familiaris). Together they are genetically capable of producing fertile young. Coydogs don't tend to exist in the wild, but for good reason. One being that coyotes are usully only most fertile for 60 days of the year.
[ June 04, 2005, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: Melvin ]
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Leonard
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posted June 04, 2005 02:24 PM
Fact is, the freezer is almost new, but the ears are probably three years old, whenever the Tom Mix Hunt was?
Are we talking thousands of dollars to check DNA, or what? I might not want to know, that bad.
But, I guess I'm good for ten bucks? Just don't tell the wife, or it will come out of my allowance.
Good hunting. LB
[ June 04, 2005, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31529 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Melvin
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posted June 04, 2005 02:48 PM
Leonard,I think there just after your prized coydog ears I would put a lock on the freezer...LOL (I'm willing to go ten...Only if Leonard gets his ears back)
Tom Mix !!!...SHEEEEESH
[ June 04, 2005, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: Melvin ]
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