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Author Topic: Smart People Question Tim Behle Administrator MacNeal Sector Member # 209 posted May 23, 2005 04:30 PM                       OK, I have a question for all of you smart people out there. How high would I have to mount an 1,100 gallon water tank, to have it push an average of 50 PSI though 3/4" pipe 50 yards away? I want it to still push no less than 40 PSI when it gets down to the last 200 gallons. Don't be offended, but can you show me the math? A mistake in calculations could get expensive on my side. Thanks, Tim -------------------- Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take an ass kickin'. Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged NASA Knows what it's all about Member # 177 posted May 23, 2005 05:15 PM                   Water weighs 8.33 lbs. per gallon, so that means you'll have over 9,000 lbs. on 20 foot stilts in your yard. It may cost more for permits and insurance than the alternative. Did you think about constructing a ground-standing tank with a solar pressure booster? Posts: 1168 | From: Typical White Person | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged Az-Hunter Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here Member # 17 posted May 23, 2005 05:29 PM                   Tim, give Dick Swisher a jingle, he could tell you all you want to know about water related stuff. He retired from the pump business, but is still listed under that I think. Posts: 1627 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged 2dogs Knows what it's all about Member # 649 posted May 23, 2005 06:04 PM                   For each foot of + elevation= .434lbs downward pressure. So, you'd have to have a tank elevated a little more than a 100'high. To get 50psi @ ground level, w/o the use of a "pump" from that tank(gravity-feed only). As was previously suggested...I'd consider a ground level tank with a solar operated-pump . Don't know off hand the friction loss in a 3/4" pipe. But a 1.5" pipe has roughly 15lbs. friction loss per 50'of pipe/hose. Personally, I'd use larger pipe & reduce it near the very end(If I wanted it to spray with some force or distance) Large; pipe/hose/nozzle= lower friction loss, higher (GPM) gallons per minute(volume) discharge gallonage. Small: pipe/hose/nozzle= Higher friction loss, lower (GMP) gallons per minute(volume) discharge gallonage. I'm not an "expert" on anything...Just trying to help. Obviously, before I invested men/money/materials...I'd find the best solution to my situation. Friction loss= eg; I want to pump & get 100psi nozzle pressure. My hose has 15lbs friction loss. Well, I'm gonna have my pump pressure set at 115psi, to get 100psi at the far end to the nozzle. BTW, I'm only average. Good luck [ May 23, 2005, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ] Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged brad h Knows what it's all about Member # 57 posted May 23, 2005 06:12 PM                    Water is .433 psi per ft so a tank size (length, width, or diameter and height of a cylinder) is needed to figure psi at ground level. .4896 x Dsq = gal per in (cylinder tank) .004329 x L(in) x W(in) = gal per in GPI x 8.33 x .052 = psi The capacity of 50' of a 3/4" ID line is just over 1 gallon. This should tell you what you'll have for psi at ground level with 200 gallons. Raising it up won't add psi but it will reduce friction which I may have to look to find. Brad Posts: 346 | From: Glendive MT | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged 2dogs Knows what it's all about Member # 649 posted May 23, 2005 06:30 PM                   Example a 1" diameter cylinder of water a 100' high. Will exert the same psi(head-pressure} as a tank of water a 100' diameter that is a 100' high as well. The pressure at the bottoms of both cylnders will be exactly the same at {ground level} or "Head-Pressure". "Ground level pressure" is called "Head-pressure" when talking hydraulics. The only difference would be between these two are. Obviously the larger tank has more "capacity". [ May 23, 2005, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ] Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged 2dogs Knows what it's all about Member # 649 posted May 23, 2005 06:48 PM                   Another thought to follow up NASA's idea, on this ground level tank. That runs by "Solar-power". Perhaps, it could also have stored batteries & a timer to run in the evening or non-peak periods, for conserving energy. Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged Tim Behle Administrator MacNeal Sector Member # 209 posted May 23, 2005 07:14 PM                       Permits? I guess I never thought of those. But then the county ( According to their maps ) think I live just under 2 miles due south of Vic. Truth is, I'm just over 5 miles East. I'll fill out the permit when they bring me one. Maybe a little more detail will help. My house is completely solar powered, anything I can do to reduce electric use, helps me a lot. My problem with a solar pump, is that I like to take my shower just before sunrise. At the point the battery bank is at it's lowest point. A few months ago, I took out my pressure tank, and installed a ground level 1,100 gallon tank and a jet pump. The tank fills when the generator runs every couple of days, and the jet pump maintains water pressure in the house. I was hoping the jet pump would use less energy. Unfortunately, by the end of the day, it uses as much or more than having the well kick on every time the pressure tank got down to 40 pounds. As a lineman, My cost of setting that tank 35' in the air would be equivalent to a couple of cases of beer and a half a dozen thick steaks. I was hoping for a cheap fix, but it doesn't look like I am going to find one. -------------------- Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take an ass kickin'. Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged Leonard HMFIC Member # 2 posted May 23, 2005 08:12 PM                       For those early showers, they have the instant "tankless" hot water units. The major problems are the cost $900/1000 and requires a two hundred amp service. Pumps with a high head start costing real money, if you need to get that water 35 feet from the ground and into the tank. Showers? Cologne is a lot cheaper. LB -------------------- EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All. Don't piss me off! Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged Jack Roberts Knows what it's all about Member # 13 posted May 23, 2005 11:08 PM                    You got some good replys as to altitude/pressure and also friction loss. Jack Posts: 499 | From: Elko NV formerly MD | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged 2dogs Knows what it's all about Member # 649 posted May 24, 2005 07:16 AM                   What I recall on measuring a tank to get cu.ft area. The equasion went something like the following; PIE= 3.14 So, PIE x Radius squared x Height= cu.ft. ----------------------------- I'm not to swell, with math/figures...I'm still working on my Gaz-end-da's . Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged Locohead World Famous Smoke Dancer Member # 15 posted May 24, 2005 08:39 AM                    Sheesh. Where did all you smart guys come from? I make a living working with numbers every day. Fortunately, I've never had to figure anything requiring more than your basic arithmitic. Its hard enough being lysdexic. -------------------- I love my critters and chick!!!! :) Posts: 2219 | From: CO | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged 2dogs Knows what it's all about Member # 649 posted May 24, 2005 10:19 AM                   A little more info, someone may use; Water under pressure, not in motion = "Static-pressure". Water flowing = "Flow pressure". It's normally measured with a Petot-guage. Water, left over,ie;(un-used) after measuring flow pressure. Is called "Residual pressure" or in other words "available water" This stuff, was repeadidly pounded into me & others. While in "The Fire Service" Never really used it since. Until this question came up. Sorry about any mistakes, I may of made. As it's been a long while... Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged Cal Taylor Knows what it's all about Member # 199 posted May 24, 2005 12:08 PM                    Boy, some of you guys are pretty smart. I'm impressed. What little I know about water came from what little bit of irrigating we did around the ranch. I remember my first and only lesson well. When I got old enough to be sent out on my own to change dams and etc. for the hayfields, I told my dad, "I don't know anything about irrigating, or what to do". My dad in his infinate wisdom said, "Why hell son, it's easy, there's only one thing you need to know. Water runs downhill." -------------------- Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. FoxPro Field Staff Member Posts: 1069 | From: Wyoming | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged 2dogs Knows what it's all about Member # 649 posted May 24, 2005 12:16 PM                   Cal, Do you have a video out on hunting coyotes with 2-white Mountain-Cur dogs? If so, I seen that video, my neighbor guy has it. Along with about every other callin video on the market. I thought it was pretty interesting & enlightening. Coyote behavior IMO, facinates most of us hunters, especially myself. Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged Cal Taylor Knows what it's all about Member # 199 posted May 26, 2005 06:12 AM                    2 Dogs, I'm guessing that video is one of E.L.K.S and is probably Merv Griswold and Murphy Love. I'm in a couple videos, but not those, and we have a new one that will be out in a couple weeks. It's called "Going to the Dogs". -------------------- Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. FoxPro Field Staff Member Posts: 1069 | From: Wyoming | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged The Outdoor Tripp Knows what it's all about Member # 619 posted May 26, 2005 04:29 PM                       Tim, Water pressure is created when water in a certain size container is "forced" (by gravity in this case) to another sized container -- in other words from a larger container (tank) to a conveyance pipe. I should be able to give you a credible answer, but need to know the radius or diameter of the tank and the shape of the tank (for calculating cross-section). Will also need to know tank depth (height of just tank without legs), and diameter of the pipe all the way down. Lemme know. -------------------- The Outdoor Tripp www.theoutdoortripp.com "All great truths begin as blasphemies." Posts: 805 | From: Texas | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged 2dogs Knows what it's all about Member # 649 posted May 26, 2005 07:14 PM                   Roger that, Cal. I'll borrow the tape from him again & take a look see. Coyotes tend to run flat-out(away), from a pack of sighthounds bearing down on'em LOL! See'em sail over barbed fences like a deer...VERY COOL! Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged Az-Hunter Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here Member # 17 posted May 26, 2005 09:10 PM                   Got this info from a man who has made his living playing with water. Regardless of shape or size, for every 2.3 feet of elevation above the outlet pipe source, you will gain one pound of pressure. So placing a tank at the 22 foot mark, should get a guy 50 pounds of pressure. My source claimed with todays pvc pipe, friction is not a big deal like it was using galvanized pipe. Posts: 1627 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged Melvin Knows what it's all about Member # 634 posted May 26, 2005 11:05 PM                    Lets see...If i stand 5 ft.10 and squirted a chaw of tobbaco juice between a horny toads eyes at 8-10 ft., i should wipe the little fellow out,right? Posts: 661 | From: PA. | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged 2dogs Knows what it's all about Member # 649 posted May 27, 2005 04:06 AM                   1-psi pressure in a 1" tube, will raise water in "said" tube, 2.304 ft. As Az, stated 2.304ft of elevation = (1)lb of downward pressure of water. ------------------------------- Melvin, What ya doing, hanging around toads, that are horney??? [ May 27, 2005, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: 2dogs ] Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged

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