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Author
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Topic: Foxpro Contest
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted March 20, 2010 03:58 PM
I see there is once again some bullshit going on in the Foxpro contest. At least it looks like it to me? I saw where Vic tried to call bullshit and was shot down.
What gives? Do they make up the rules as they go? I would be pissed off as hell if I were going against that team.
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted March 20, 2010 04:14 PM
Link?
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted March 20, 2010 04:18 PM
http://forum.gofoxpro.com/fp_forums/showthread.php?t=113
I think the brew ha ha starts about page 5 or 6 or so....
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted March 20, 2010 05:20 PM
The first problem I see is that Foxpro doesn't define a "participant."
They are allowing eaglerock/sac81 to compete as a team, however eaglerock is the registered participant and sac81 is the shooter, who takes credit for the kills.
The way I see it, lacking further explanation of the term "participant," sac should be registered and not eaglerock.
Kind of like "make up the rules as you go." I serve on a board of directors here, and I know from experience that if someone like Vic doesn't keep them honest they will do as they please.
It looks like the Foxpro staff shot him down though.
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 20, 2010 06:25 PM
The thing is, Vic usually has his ducks in a row before he squalks. I know that Dillon is trying to do the right thing and dismiss those pesky rules, but on the other hand, to an outsider, it looks like a hometown decision. It doesn't help that a couple yappers that (most probably) don't know shit, have been taking shots at AZ for voicing his legit concerns. It would be nice if they addressed his concerns on a point by point basis, and explained why certain rules are overlooked. Also, if there was some discusion about that team, early on, that should have been made known right away, instead of telling everybody, after the point was raised, that way back, this team and it's unregistered participant had an okay from the big cheese, himself. Okay, so Vic is a good friend, but it still stinks, and this contest continues to lose respect, what with Robby Krause and all of his shenanigans the past few years. Pull the plug, Dillon, it's not working any more.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31473 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted March 20, 2010 07:03 PM
Looks to me like Vic has a clear understanding of the posted rules, and is correct.
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futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
Posts: 1465 | From: flyover country | Registered: Feb 2004
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted March 20, 2010 07:54 PM
Yeah, I havent been impressed with many things the Dillons have done. Their contest seems to be a sham to let whoever win they want to win. You gotta kill coyotes, but the rest of the rules are optional if they like you.
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted March 20, 2010 08:22 PM
I haven't paid any attention, at all, to the contest. Have not read one single post about it. Just not interested. So I've no clue what's going on with it.
But I know the Dillon's personally, and have been very impressed by a lot of things they have done. For a lot of years. Whatever they did on this contest thing (and I honestly don't know what it was and ain't gonna spend any time reading about a contest to find out...), I'm sure they did it for what they felt were the right reasons.
I'd be surprised if Vic's complaint isn't legitimate, too, whatever it is.
Sometimes you just can't make everyone happy. Hell, most of the time, you just can't make everyone happy.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted March 20, 2010 08:39 PM
Dave, different folks have different relationships and experiences with different folks. The way the world works.
As for the contest, the rules are cut and dried. Dillon claims this guy called in ahead of time and told him what they were going to do and he gave it the ok. My question is, if they did call in before the contest, why didnt they have the rules explained to them and just sign up the right way and there wouldnt be a question. Leads me to believe either they didnt call in and this was a made up excuse, or, it was piss poor planning and they should stand up and do the right thing. I know if I were the guy in second place, I would be pissed.
Rules is rules.
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 20, 2010 08:57 PM
Dave, I have a feeling that Dillon is a decent sort, and I know that you have respect for him, which goes a long way, in my book.
So, I am not trashing him, for what he thinks is the right thing to do, fair, and all. I just don't think he has provided a reasonable explanation, as to why all of these rules don't matter when you are the boss. It's like; "I decided". End of subject.
He needs to soothe feathers and explain why he is not bending, but breaking published rules, and address every question, point by point. If he does nothing more than he already has, there will be some people that won't think he is a fair person, regardless of how fair he attempts to be in dealing with this father/son team, who have had a very good season. Not great, but good, maybe good enough to win?
If we consider what Little Stevie Wonder tried to do last year, which was to invalidate all of Vic's entries because of some crap about holding the caller and fingers instead of thumbs. Now, that was petty shit, there was essential compliance with all rules.
Here, right off the bat, the guy scheduled to win isn't registered. How much more basic can you get, than that?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31473 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted March 20, 2010 09:11 PM
Leonard, like I said, I really have no idea what the situation is. I don't even know what happened with Krause last year. I see "contest" and my eyes glaze over and I never look again. It's a general subject I just have no use for. Hell, I'm a moderator on NPHA and I haven't any clue what's going on with their contest either, haven't paid the slightest bit of attention to it.
So, I can't, won't comment on the specifics.
All I'm saying, is that Mike and Steve ARE decent folks. I know it. So, whatever it is they have done, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt. Even if they made a mistake, which, after all, shit happens, I'm sure it wasn't out of any bad intentions.
I guess I just get tired of all the conspiracy theory bullshit that seems to be the fuel the internet predator boards run on. Guys get all worked up over nothting at all, or simple human error without evil intent. All kinds of whacked out motives for stuff that happens get thrown around. And, my friends at Foxpro seem to be fairly popular targets for that kind of stuff, and I just get tired of seeing it.
But, since I really do not know anything at all, about this particular episode, I'm not going to inject myself into it any further. I've said what I wanted to say. And, I do, very much, appreciate your thoughts on it as well.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted March 20, 2010 09:17 PM
You know Dave, with folks like you and Cal talkin good about Foxpro, it makes it hard for me to not like em. Even though I think what they did, and have done in the past, is bullshit.
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted March 21, 2010 06:00 AM
I've met Vic. He seems like a pretty decent guy who's opinions are worth a listen. I also use a FoxPro 416 caller. It's a good little unit.
Soooooo..............I have to conclude that the Dillons are better at making callers than they are at running contests. Mayhap they should just have a third party that 'don't have no dog in this fight' do the contest admin stuff. Seems like a pretty simple solution to a number of problems.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7584 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 21, 2010 07:51 AM
Sounds like we have a volunteer stepping forward?
All the negative crap about Foxpro can be traced back to the policies at PMS. The way the moderators handled those situations where the conversation turned to machines that were in direct competition with Foxpro. For years, that has been something that reflected poorly on Foxpro because they did nothing to correct the situation. Unfortunate.
I had an invitation from one of the Dillons to discuss some issue, once, never took advantage of the offer, but that is the only thing I have to form an opinion. Except, two people that I have a great deal of respect, Dave and Cal speak very highly of the Dillons and that does not go unnoticed around here.
Therefore, I have to cut them some slack and offer advice, instead of criticism. My advice; make decisions when and where necessary, and defend those decisions in a fair and logical manor. I do not think this has been done. Needs work.
It would be interesting to hear from AZ on the subject, would it not?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted March 21, 2010 09:11 AM
Nope; My computer skills pretty much max out with getting these little smiley things to go where I want. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Better that they get some college student that doesn't even hunt coyotes to run it by the rules posted at the beginning.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7584 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 21, 2010 09:44 AM
Translation: no huevos
edit: Hey, that would make a jim dandy custom title! Who deserves it?
[ March 21, 2010, 09:46 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted March 21, 2010 10:33 AM
I certainly do not want to be misconstrued to be taking a position either for or against a major player in this community, as I have been recently accused of doing to the detriment of the entire community/ industry, but, to me, there seems to be one glaringly obvious fact here that no one is noting.
Dead stuff.
The contest at FP is for one thing, and one thing only: to show the results that a Fox Pro caller can be expected to produce. Market a call or caller and not be able to show piles of dead critters and see how far you get.
Mike and Steve likely see this issue as a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't because, regardless of where you stand on it, even at its present controversial state, guys are killing stuff with FP callers and that s e l l s product. In fact, all the static over this issue is probably selling a few callers, too, and settling the matter once and for all only hurts that.
As far as managing a contest like this, as DAA points out, you can't make everyone happy. Our own contest here in Kansas had a rules violation this past year by three different teams that resulted in their disqualification. Myself and the other judge had decided beforehand that we would cover each rule, one by one, in the rules meeting and that there would be no deviations. Yet, after the hunt, one team chose to continuously make the final ruling an issue. The questions becomes, "where do you draw the line?" To us, it has become apparent that the rules are the rules. I don't envy Mike and Steve for having to deal with this all the time. It takes a lot of the fun out of what was to be an otherwise enjoyable sideline to the industry and a way to get your customers in the field and hopefully bring in new ones.
At the same time, Vic has put a lot of time into his hunting and gone by the rules. He deserves something for that.
Mike and Steve seem like good guys to me in our conversations. Maybe they were feeding me a line of crap when we discussed this PM thing, but I was under the impression that none of that was their doing but was done by a bunch of out of control cheerleaders who thought they were doing FP a favor. FP, at the same time, found themselves in the unfortunate position of having to decide "do we step in and surely piss off at least 50% of those involved and lose their business?, or "do we do nothing, accept that we cannot control what other people choose to do, and try to do things right in hopes that it will all go away?".
A lot of people expect the Dillons to fall on someone else's sword and martyr themselves just so a bunch of other people can get along. I don't see it happening, nor should it. If you aren't comfortable with the way the rules are flexed, maybe that contest isn't for you.
Having said that, I have a feeling that the static is welcomed. This is the internet - a lot of folks are driving by to rubberneck. Just like a car wreck, web trauma is a spectator sport and spectators have money.
[ March 21, 2010, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 21, 2010 10:51 AM
All well and good, Lance. However, I don't agree with this staement:
quote:
FP, at the same time, found themselves in the unfortunate position of having to decide "do we step in and surely piss off at least 50% of those involved and lose their business?, or "do we do nothing, accept that we cannot control what other people choose to do, and try to do things right in hopes that it will all go away?".
If this refers to the rabid attack dog policies at PMS; they sure as hell could straighten it out, or the, "do we do nothing" stuff is tacit approval.
If, on the other hand, you mean the contest disputes, that doesn't hold water, either. All those 50% involved that they piss off are already customers and not very many, in the overall scheme of things.
They aren't doing enough, either way. Great guys still need advice on how to make fair decisions and they either are not getting it, or they are ignoring it.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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tlbradford
Rimfires are MAGIC on COYOTES! If you do your part
Member # 1232
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posted March 21, 2010 12:41 PM
I don't see a problem with what they decided on, but I don't really believe that all of this was sanctioned prior to the contest. If that was the case then they could have registered correctly, or the admin could have done it for them. Why not just award two top prizes. Wouldn't that solve everything? The Dillons would be seen as fair and generous, and hopefully all the registered contestants would feel it was justifiable.
I disagree with a couple of points you made Lance. The first LEonard spoke on and I agree with that. The second is that all publicity is good publicity. This may be true for Hollywood, but it is not true for businesses. Just ask Toyota. Granted that was a problem with a product, but any company that maintains a relationship with their customers and relies upon this customer base to spread the word and buy the latest model, needs to keep a sterling reputation for customer service. IT may be a no-win situation for them, but good companies figure out a way to come out looking golden in these situations (see my simple solution above). Like Leonard stated, go through the rules, be honest and truthful about each point, and nobody can say anything bad about you.
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"Dan Carey ain't that special" - LB
Posts: 423 | From: Spokane Valley, WA | Registered: Mar 2007
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fgf4
unknown comic
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posted March 21, 2010 01:25 PM
quote:
All the negative crap about Foxpro can be traced back to the policies at PMS. The way the moderators handled those situations where the conversation turned to machines that were in direct competition with Foxpro. For years, that has been something that reflected poorly on Foxpro because they did nothing to correct the situation. Unfortunate.
I do agree with some of that... Mike Dillion still gets angry when that subject is brought up. He wasn't happy at all with the threads getting pulled and the negative fallout from that practice.
Mike did try to come to the forum and talk about his product but was often then the direct target of the opposition. Why would anyone want to be a target? Steve tried to clarify some technical stuff and got trashed as well. I have talked to both about what went on at PMS and their opinions were that they wanted to stay out of it as much as possible, whenever possible. They neither one have any say in the running of PMS! That's one thing I know. Not even the mods have a say! LOL
Could Mike have changed the way things were handled there at PMS? As a powerful sponsor/advertiser... maybe, but certainly not directly.
I think the Dillion's will make it right on the contest but rules are rules and they need to be followed from the start, not bent in the middle or at the end! Vic has followed the rules from the beginning... that's what really counts.
The contest is all about showing that their products work... that's the simple truth.
Nikonut
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted March 21, 2010 01:40 PM
Elbee and tlb,
I'm not saying that the way any of it has been handled is right, wrong or somewhere in the middle. I am saying that I can see why the contest may be getting run the way it is. Whether I agree with that means nothing, but I can see why they went the way they went, if that is, in fact true. I have no way to know if it is or not. Just speculating, which is pretty much what everyone here is left to do. I was raised in a small town, and this business - this "community" - is not unlike a small town, and like any small town, we have our small town politics, and you ask any businessperson in a small town how he or she likes the politics of a small town and you won't find a one that looks forward to the next issue coming down the pike.
For instance, in my hometown we had a huge bond issue to build a new school to replace the one that was woefully out of ADA complaince and at risk of being shut down. I asked a good friend who owned a service station in town what she thought and she said she agreed with me, and with every other sumbitch that walked in her door, regardless of where they stood, because no matter what stance she took, half the people in town would end up pissed at her.
If the circumstances at PM are as they appear to be to me, then Mike and Steve would have had no more control over the direction that took then Toyota would if it was Ford trashing them. (And, BTW, there has been conspiracist speculation that this entire problem with Toyota was sabotage by another carmaker.)Once someone has it in their mind to run with a story, you're in a reactive posture and it's really hard to get out front of it wihtout getting it all over you. I'm firmly convinced that the Dillons had nothing to do with those events over there, nor were they backing the ones that did. Their presence on PM ***** them a lot of product, so despite the problems, they've chosen to stay there and make their money. I think it would be a bad business decision for them to abandon PM on simple principals. Like it or not, that's the way it might be.
I can't say that their past contest isn't first and foremost in my mind when we consider rules and rule changes for our event. Make them solid, clear to understand, and hard to circumvent. Try to identify how people are going to get around the rules, because it's human nature to do so. If and when questions arise, refer to the rules by default and even if you're my best friend, you break the rules, you're out.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted March 21, 2010 01:48 PM
I didnt know Vic was playing? I see Velvet Jones claims to have not been out. Im sure that will change the day before its over. Maybe Vic is playing the same game?
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Andy
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted March 21, 2010 01:54 PM
To be clear; Im not entered in the contest, I merely commented a few times on the threads posted by a couple guys who had failed to follow several of the most important rules. Voicing my opinion caused a few of the fellas to get pissy, but it's been no big deal, and for the most part, the fellas who I hold in regard, supported and concurred with my opinions.
The rules state that a contestant must be registered and start their "own" topic by dec 1st ( the contest started nov 1st), plenty of time to get registered.
The rules state the contestant must create a single topic within their regional division. The rules state the contestant must post individual photos of their kills within their individual topic. The rules state, all posted predators must be harvested by the person in the topic only. Contestants hunting as a team, only the shooter can take credit for the predators in the photo.
The non-registered contestant I had made comments about was hunting with his father, who did have a specific topic and the father was registered according to the rules. The shooter is not a registered contestant, nor does he have his own specific topic, and his photos are not posted in his own topic.
Thats it in a nutshell, seems pretty straight forward and would appear that no hand wringing and parsing of the rules under a microscope would be necessary.
These infractions are blatant, not a silly faux paux of incorrect pose, or face missing in photo to indentify a contestant, those kinds of things are petty. You all tell me; how can a guy participate in a contest, where he is not even registered?
Thats it, I made my peace there,and only chimed in a time or two more in answer to two stupid fucks who just couldn't wrap their simple minds around what a rule is, and seemed to shut them up?
Mike Dillon is captain of the ship over there, and he gave his final word on the matter, and said he was comfortable with his decision....case closed.
[ March 21, 2010, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: Az-Hunter ]
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted March 21, 2010 02:27 PM
I agree 100%. The rules were broken. They should be disqualified. If they called in before the contest, they should have made him his own entry. That kind of shoots that defense down.
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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DEL GUE
SECOND PLACE: Mad Bomber lookalike contest
Member # 1526
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posted March 31, 2010 09:05 PM
Well, Vic, I saw you were in the 2008-2009 contest and had a good year, and I was disappointed that you weren't in the 2009-2010 one, because I enjoy reading your posts and seeing your success, but after seeing how Foxpro is running their contest, in a basically TEGWAR fashion, I can understand why you didn't enter it. The rules are the rules are the rules. If they contacted Dillon directly then he shoulda explained to them what they had to do to legitimately participate, which he could have done just as easily as giving them their special dispensation. I think I have to agree...Foxpro is better at making calls than running contests, and they either need to let a 3rd party run it, or run it the right way, or shut it down. When management plays fast and loose with the rules, the legitimacy and fairness of the whole contest is compromised.
[ March 31, 2010, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: DEL GUE ]
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"I never could find no tracks on a woman's heart." - Bear Claw
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