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Author
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Topic: Coyote calling demographics
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted January 02, 2006 09:33 AM
Pup,
The DVD should be 2 hours long. No more. No less. The actual hunting footage portion, including instructional segments, should not be any longer than 12 minutes and 30 seconds. The balance - 1 hour, 47 minutes and 30 seconds, will be rolling credits, beginning with the doctor that spanked your butt bringing you into this world. Of course, you could start with thanking your folks for your conception. But, only if both they and you are comfortable with that. The idea here is to make sure no one comes away from the deal feeling slighted or the least bit uncomfortable. Work your way up thru your grade school teachers, football coach, the good folks at the company that built every truck you've ever owned, not to mention your rifle or shotgun. (Don't leave out the ammo people.)
You might want to consider thanking the NRA for obvious reasons, the AFL-CIO and teamsters for representing all the various laborers that built your many "toys". The people of Japan for building your video camera can't be left out. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
And finally, but far from last, the coyotes, without whose contribution your video would not be possible. Good luck.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted January 02, 2006 09:35 AM
We did it!!!!
11 pages!!!
Pup, one last thought, remember that your contribution is the least significant to the project. After all, you're just pulling together the contributions of everyone else before you and slickly marketing it in one convenient, easy to peddle package. Can you imagine the confusion that would ensue if all the rest of us had to follow your life's road, as well as our own, to experience and benefit from those folks you've known. Total anarchy, man.
[ January 02, 2006, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Randy Buker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 134
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posted January 02, 2006 09:40 AM
Lance,
Just be sure I get some of the credit for these 11 pages. I sure worked hard to get it here.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Randy
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Hunting the Red Fox
www.geocities.com/foxhunter_56308
Posts: 158 | From: Parkers Prairie, MN | Registered: Feb 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted January 02, 2006 09:58 AM
Yes, of course. I would especially like to thank both Randy and Scott for their contributions. Over and over again.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted January 02, 2006 10:19 AM
quote:
Tim, one last thought, remnember that your contribution is the least significant to the project.
Huh???
What the hell did I do?
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Gerald Stewart
Knows what it's all about
Member # 162
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posted January 02, 2006 10:21 AM
Are you trying to start trouble Pup? I work so hard to finally get a hunt with Scott and end this thread and poof here you are with your questions. I had to put my lunch salad down to type this to boot. ![[Wink]](wink.gif) ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posts: 419 | From: Waco,Tx | Registered: Mar 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted January 02, 2006 10:23 AM
11 pages and you guys still don't get what Scott's trying to say. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted January 02, 2006 11:03 AM
Oops, Tim. My bad. I apologize. (Has been corrected.)
UTcaller,
I get it, but I think we'd better get used to it. Fact is, calling predators is on the cusp of becoming bigger than it's ever been before. I've said this for many years and see it going right down that road. I can understand the frustration that the ADC guys must have because let's face it, no one ever got paid to go out and kill problem ducks or pheasants. But what Scott points out is just going to become more and more prevalent as more ppl get into the industry and as the industry continues to cater to the almighty buck.
In the end, whan all this dust has cleared, the only things that will have been accomplished are that Scott will have said his piece, others will have more reason to not trust those they thought were in their corner up to now, and we'll have yet one more train wreck thread to look back at down the road. It sure as hell won't stop, or even slow down, the evolution of calling predators for public consumption. Just too much demand and interest out there.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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pup
Knows what it's all about
Member # 90
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posted January 02, 2006 11:13 AM
Gerald,
No Sir! and my appologies for interupting your lunch.
I kinda felt like a bull that couldn't see the gate, I was hoping for them to send a bull or lead steer out of the catch pen to show the way.
Although my observation noted your technique of obtaining that hunt, I will not use it to obtain a hunt with him of my own, without gaining your permission, and/or giving you credit for it.
I am curious about Scott's solution, if he would indulge.
Thanks for the input Lance, duly noted.
Byron, you are a good man. I bought the first two and will gladly be ordering the latest two. You have a style that shouts Byron South, which was God given. Don't change a thing.
DAA, Thanks for the sound. Nothing to add, my tail
Posts: 213 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Feb 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted January 02, 2006 12:31 PM
Lance,
I don't think Scott or anyone else for that matter can change what has and is taking place in the predator hunting industry,both good and bad.I think Scott is just voicing his frustration with the "showboaters,prostitutes of the sport,and fast buck artists" in the industry.Where this thread went south is how some people took it as a personal attack on them and what they do.Granted Scott did not come out with alot of tact,but like he said that's not his style.And again NO names were mentioned.And as Scott likes to stir the pot in most debates he has he said "let your conscience be your guide".Then all hell broke loose.If people would just think about what he said in context and not think he was talking specifically to THEM,You might see what he's trying to say.I know first hand how it is to get your feathers ruffled when debating an issue with Scott,so I can see how/why this Thread caused such a stir.FWIW Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 02, 2006 12:54 PM
I really don't see it, Chad? I wonder why some posts are ignored and some attract interest? Some can be attributed to Scott (Wiley E) It's been so long since he has posted, he needed assistance from the administrator to log on.
But, eleven pages? He has been willing and eagar to clarify every word he has used and yet, I guess that pup is still unsure how he might avoid being labeled as a prostitute, by Scott (I assume?) rather than the consuming public? I think he already said that you should let your conscience be your guide?
But, hey. Don't lose sight of the main thrust of his message. Go ahead and film some coyote action. But, if your credentials are flimsy, give credit where credit is due. It doesn't hurt to be honest about the source of your information. Pretty simple.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted January 02, 2006 01:17 PM
Leonard,
I think it is the negative that gets people to post/and gets the feathers ruffled.Cause like they say "opinions are like A$$H**** everyones got one". I truly have been entertained with this thread,and unlike some people I see the value in it.LOL If it makes someone stop and think before they make a video great, if not then "let your conscience be your guide".LOL
Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 02, 2006 01:32 PM
quote:
Leonard,
I think it is the negative that gets people to post/and gets the feathers ruffled. UTcaller
You are undoubtedly correct, Chad. For instance, Lana South registered a couple days ago. She may be tempted to share her opinion with us?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted January 02, 2006 02:03 PM
Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.LOL
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Gerald Stewart
Knows what it's all about
Member # 162
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posted January 02, 2006 02:58 PM
The medium absolutely sucks for these kinds of discussions Leonard. So much is left to assumption, misinterpretation and conjecture when you read the flat one dimensional words on the screen. You don't get to see a face, hear inflection and a whole host of other attributes to conversational exchange. ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
Throw in admittedly poor communication skills, honest mistakes, poor judgement on all of our parts and you have a recipe for what has happened here. That does not even consider the intentional pot stirrers and the havoc they reek. Add factionalism, the mutual admiration societies and you have even a worse mess.
Occassional pity parties and other screwed up mental cases stirred in and it is more than one should have to be subjected to. It is what drove me off the boards years ago and may do again some day. And besides ....those stupid little symbols must not mean a whole hell of a lot to some people because they don't use them or they ignore it when people do use them.
The older I get the less time I have for dealing with it........there I said it.....whew.......hey.......that felt...pretty good. I feel a whole lot better after getting that off my chest......hey...now I understand why some people do that all the time.
[ January 02, 2006, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]
Posts: 419 | From: Waco,Tx | Registered: Mar 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted January 02, 2006 03:47 PM
Where I agree that sometimes there can be bickering on huntmasters,I for one believe this to be one of if not the best hunting forums for predator calling on the net.Very seasoned callers with very good questions and advice.Where we lack the quantity of posters as some of the other forums have,there definitely is more quality here.GOOD QUESTIONS,GOOD ANSWERS,GOOD ADVICE.. PERIOD.....
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 02, 2006 03:52 PM
Gerald, I have never stood in the way of uncensored communication. There may be flaws in this medium, but it is all we have, for the present. Every once in a while, there seems to be a huge quarrel and people say what is on their mind. You must be aware that they are always using the back channels for the same reason, and it is generally a lot more direct.
I don't know what you are trying to convey, except you are angry at some of the comments, but that's life. You have a point of view, and so do the rest of the members.
I assure you, I value your contributions very much, glad that you choose to use this board, and am proud that you do. I am sorry that we are pulling you away from your powerpoint presentation. ![[Frown]](frown.gif) Huntmasters does not normally have a lot of bombthrowers, but we are not perfect.
I will tell you this much, I don't see this as good guys versus bad guys. I see people with honest differences of opinion and I don't have a problem with divergent opinion nor am I intimidated by views that do not coincide with my own. If it was me against the world, I'd stand my ground, and wish everybody the best of luck, because they are going to need it.
This entire subject will die a natural death, hand wringing or no, so don't fret. If you are suggesting that I shut it down, before every voice is heard, that won't happen. But, I sense that most everything worth saying has been said? And, (I grant you) a lot that didn't need saying.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted January 02, 2006 04:02 PM
Gotta keep you going Leonard, I see that you are about to break 5000 posts!!!!!!
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
Posts: 1069 | From: Wyoming | Registered: May 2003
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Gerald Stewart
Knows what it's all about
Member # 162
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posted January 02, 2006 04:07 PM
See I proved my point...didn't I? The little symbols mean nothing. I was not mad at all...I ended with a wink didn't I. That was an attempt to be humorous and it failed on the first person that read it. How can a serious discussion have any chance of surviving? HHhhmmmmnnnnnn.
Let me try this again.
After a soild day of staring at a laptop screen working and reworking powerpoint slides I just needed some relief Leonard. I"m OK....really.
Posts: 419 | From: Waco,Tx | Registered: Mar 2003
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TheHuntedOne
Knows what it's all about
Member # 623
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posted January 02, 2006 04:46 PM
quote:
Welcome, Bill. I watched your video last night. You have some damned fine looking coyotes and some sorry shooters in New Hampshire.
Whoa - hold on there Mr Leonard.
That was not nice at all You keep this stuff up and I will have to move to Vermont. Or maybe Maine.
Al
In New Hampshire
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The On Line Resource For Custom Call Makers
THO Game Calls
Posts: 266 | From: New Hampshire | Registered: Mar 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 02, 2006 05:00 PM
Okay, you got me, Al. I assume there are some hunters in New Hampshire that can put a coyote on the ground, and that wasn't a fair dig. But, Bill himself was not very complimentary. That ten foot, (or yard) miss was a real jaw dropper. I'm surprised it made the cut? Nice looking country and nice looking animals.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 02, 2006 05:04 PM
You guys think I'm on the keyboard 24/7 but I'm actually watching a football game. That's about all I can do, I'm not getting around very well with this knee surgery. Sitting here in my sweats, rain, etc.
I have two sets of crutches at both ends of the house and a cane, in the middle.
Good hunting. LB
[ January 02, 2006, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted January 02, 2006 09:17 PM
pup: "If I compile the footage I have, (if I ever get the house done), and make a dvd. What do I do to keep from falling into your category of "prostituion of the industry"."
That's an honest question pup. Too bad the thread didn't start right here.
1. If your video is for entertainment purposes and not instructional, present it as such. State that it is not an instructional video then nobody will assume that it is an instructional video and it won't have to meet any expectations.
2. If your video is instructional, make sure you have enough experience with the information you are presenting to know that there is no misrepresentation. In other words, don't be teaching about things that you may not have any personal knowledge about.
For example, anyone that says that cover scents have value doesn't know a damn thing about coyotes and has never put scent screens to the test. When drug dogs are finding cocaine in cargo loads of fish, when bird dogs are pointing birds after taking a load of skunk in the face, when a bird dog can point a bird with a bird in it's mouth, don't be telling someone that understands coyotes how coyotes can't smell you through a skunk screen because it's bullsh*t. Information like that is totally misleading and only hurts the novice caller.
Make sure you can back what you are saying.
3. If your video is educational, always give credit to those who taught you out of respect for them. Nobody has to mention everyone's name that helped them along the way, just a simple, "I want to thank those of you who helped me, yada yada" and mention a few that helped you the most.
4. Be humble and show a desire to either entertain or to educate. Don't do a "look at me" video but rather a "look at this" video. Acknowledge your assets such as a heavy coyote population, lack of calling competition, great weather, etc. Don't be an arrogant jerk and social misfit like I am. LOL!
5. Always keep in mind that your circumstances may not be someone else's circumstances. For instance, calling with the wind might work in the Pinon Junipers of New Mexico but it isn't worth a crap in the northern states with different habitat. Full camoflauge might be important in certain habitats but less important than others.
One of the most knowledgeable coyote men I have had the privelage to meet, George Good, always answered a question with, "well, under my conditions with my coyotes.....yada yada". This disclaimer acknowledges the difference from one area to the next and how methods might vary from one area to the next.
6. Edit out the dragging guts, blown legs, wind blowing in the microphone, laughing at a crippling shot, and edit out the never ending "waaaah, waaaaah, waaaaah, waaaaah, waaaaah". A few "wabbit scweams" will more than make the point. Once an animal is spotted, then it's fine because a person can watch the reaction of the animal to certain sounds.
7. Have the Dahm triplets hold up your coyotes in the end.
Pretty simple!
~SH~
[ January 02, 2006, 09:31 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Locohead
World Famous Smoke Dancer
Member # 15
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posted January 02, 2006 10:57 PM
Sheeeesh! That would make one fine video. Get that house done man. I can't hardly wait to see yours!!!! Sounds down right perfect. So let's not just whine about the problem. Let's get it fixified. Hurry and get your house built and quit worrying about competing with your mentors. Make the damn video and give them credit while they're still alive to appreciate your gratitude. I'm sure you've got a lot to contribute and you could still keep your favorite tricks secret. I bet you'd make some money at it (I'm fairly certain you're not against making dough from a video endeavor [if I understand your point right]) I bet you'd have a lot of fun too. You might need something to do to replace all theat time you were sppending on your house.
One of the best things I've ever seen or heard on a video is that CLASSIC Randy Anderson SONG, "Come Little Coyote Come..." Sometimes that tune will get stuck in my brain and not come out until I re-watch the video! LOL
[ January 02, 2006, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: Locohead ]
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I love my critters and chick!!!! :)
Posts: 2219 | From: CO | Registered: Jan 2003
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Q-Wagoner
FREE TRIAL MEMBERSHIP
Member # 33
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posted January 03, 2006 12:33 AM
As hard as I can try, I still can’t get as worked up over this as Scott and others. It may be annoying that some people build them selves up off the work and experience of other hunters but in the end, who is to blame?
Leonard has in the past said “Keep your secret spots secrete. No matter how much you trust some one.” It has happened to him it has happened to me it has happened to everyone. When you let someone in on your honey holes you might as well count on it that they will be back or the person they tell about it will hunt there. In the end, who is really to blame? It is we for sharing the information. It is no wonder why Leonard is so secretive about a lot of his information.
It is not only that either. Take misting for example. Leonard has got nothing but grief over that little tidbit of information and for what? Sense he divulged the concept to the Internet he has done nothing but defend the usage of it to hunters with a fraction of his experience. LOL That is another good reason to be secretive.
If you are not parroting information like so many do it is hard for the general public to accept it. People are always begging for “information” but when they get something original they can’t accept it because they haven’t heard about it before. Go figure.
Someday a video with misting on it will be available by a “flash in the pan” type. Maybe even in the same video there will be mention of Dykem? The hero of the show will pass it along as one of his “secrets” of success and then the next guy that passes on the information will regarded it as common knowledge. Now every one here knows the real story behind Dykem and mist. The imposter will modestly offend some of us because he is using Leonards ideas as his own for no other reason than to make money and gain notoriety from the masses.
The story would change if the person would recognize Leonard as who he learned it from and enforce the information by saying….
“I have used “Leonard’s” magic mist for more than 10 years now and with over a thousand coyotes under my belt I can say with experience that this stuff can work for you. Now this is how you use it and this is the kind of results you should expect to get. You will see that it is not a magic bullet but in the end it will put a few more coyotes on your stretchers.”
Some might see it in prospective now. Scott and other old hunters see information that there friend or friends have discovered being cashed in on by third and fourth hand parties. They set there and think to them selves “Hey! I know where that idea came from!!! Who does this guy think he is selling it on TV as his own idea and not giving credit where credit is due!! What has this guy done or accomplished in his life to even think he can speak about the subject anyway?
In the end Leonard can’t do anything about misting or dykem or anything else he has contributed to the Internet crowed if it makes it to T.V. because he is the one who dropped the ball.
If your knowledge is out there and someone else is using it; well it is like crying over spilled milk. Just like your honey holes, what else can you expect? People are hungry for money and notoriety and will not mind stepping on a few toes to get it.
There is really not that much money in calling videos anyway. Randy Anderson is the only person that is really doing well in this industry as far as self-starters are concerned. A good friend of mine that I went to school with is the advertising director of Cabelas and he told me that Randy is still selling considerably more videos than ALL of the other calling videos COMBINED. I have another friend that is a floor manager at Scheels in Lincoln NE and it is the same story. Randy has the corner of the market and everyone else is small fish. Even at that I doubt Randy will be quitting his day job anytime soon. LOL
Guys like Randy will make more money off the videos in the major chain stores because 1. He ***** more and 2. Because of the fact he ***** more he can sell them to the stores for more money than the smaller fish.
Again, I can’t get to worked up about the deal because I guard my few secrets and will likely take them to the grave. Not having a dog in the fight I can see both sides but even at that there are only a small percentage of people that can apply the skills to their newfound knowledge. Take Krusy for example. LOL Ok I’ll stop there.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posts: 617 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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