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Author
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Topic: Zepp video
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted August 12, 2004 03:01 PM
Higgins,
When you speak about stupid things people do because of not thinking, i.e., runnin g stoplights, etc., those acts are often as a result of thinking too much, just not about the task at hand. People start multi-tasking in their heads and pretty soon, they're distracted from the task at hand. Who's to say that the occasional stupid mistake a coyote makes isn't because his brain is mulling over something else altogether?
As far as coyotes being brain dead, I would think that a statement like that would be self-defeating for someone trying to market his e-caller as the best around. After all, if the presumed target was so stupid as to be completely void of thought, wouldn't it stand to reason that such an animal would respond with equal likelihood to any sound, regardless of quality? Most manufacturers promote their calls as being the best suited for calling those individuals that can't be duped by lesser machines or calls. After all, anyone can call a stupid pup.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Curt2u
Knows what it's all about
Member # 74
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posted August 14, 2004 10:14 AM
"Coyotes are brain dead". That has to be the most ridiculous statement I've heard yet regarding coyote calling. Yes, some calling areas certainly would give one the impression no thinking is going on. We all love those spots. In my opinion, coyote intelligence can vary greatly from area to area but there is some thinking going on simple as it may be. In fact I'd have to say much more thinking than is taking place in an individual making such a blanket statement. Makes one wonder if that person has ever called coyotes before. No, the coyote is not capable of working out complex algorithms. But they are quite capable of planning out a simple strategy to approach potential prey in distress that would present less of a hazard to their well being. Even the least experienced caller knows this.
"as a matter of fact some coyote hunters fall into the same category". Didn't realize how true that was till reading the first half of this statement. LOL!
Good hunting
Posts: 236 | From: NW | Registered: Jan 2003
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NASA
Knows what it's all about
Member # 177
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posted August 14, 2004 12:25 PM
I see the problem here is with the use of the word "thinking". Let's be scientific here for a minute. Humans think, animals respond. Animals don't have the capacity to think, except in Disney movies. BUT!, their response system is very capable and has evolved to the point where it almost challenges the human thought process.
Coyotes are born with "instinctual" responses. Their upbringing develops "behavorial" responses.
Their hunting success and failures develop "conditioned" responses.
And their close calls with civilization (and predator hunters) establishes their "learned" responses.
This massive "information warehouse" is stored in his brain and gives the coyote a lot of awareness and response choices. It does not equate to "thinking" but it is probably the next best thing to it.
Posts: 1168 | From: Typical White Person | Registered: Apr 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 14, 2004 12:33 PM
I have seen a few of those lists of smart, (intelligent) animals. Top ten, etc. For some reason, chimps, killer whales, crows, rats, certain breeds of dog....and coyote is usually one of the smartest. Brain dead is an interesting way of describing one of the most intelligent of the animal kingdom. Makes me think the definition of "brain dead" needs a little clarification.
All kidding aside.
Bill Martz, not to put you on the spot. I'm curious; have you ever hunted coyotes, and how many have you killed? There are a number of animals that don't present nearly the challenge that coyotes, do. How could all these guys be so misinformed?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31492 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Curt2u
Knows what it's all about
Member # 74
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posted August 14, 2004 02:09 PM
I guess it depends what your definition of "thinking" is. My definition is a lot broader I suppose and allows for a much more primitive process to be considered thinking. I still believe it falls in that category none the less however. Certainly not disputing your info NASA. I know you have a much deeper understanding of animal behavior than I. But my observations of coyotes and the many domestic dogs and other animals I've owned leads me to believe that they do posses the ability to "think" to some degree. Having the ability to access past experiences and use it to your advantage is limited thinking in my book. I've seen my own dogs do some problem solving that could only be explained by the dog employing some form of thinking as I define it. Just my opinion though. The debate still and will continue to rage about animals ability to think. Some animals posses other abilities that make humans look pretty inadequate. Take sight, smell, and hearing. Some use a form of sonar. We are pretty lame in that dept. Our biggest advantage is our opposing thumb. We are pretty much just smart monkeys with cars and guns. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Here are some tidbits from articles on the subject:
"For those who believe that animals are only capable of responding to a stimulus for a tangible reward, the answer is that these experiments are nothing more than elaborate survival skills. The real question is how are the elaborate tasks that humans learn and teach different from tasks that animals use to survive? "
"Anecdotal evidence suggests that dogs have a reasonably high intelligence, and scientific studies have confirmed this."
"The Border Collie has extraordinary instinct and an uncanny ability to reason."
"When it comes to testing members of a different species, the most any test can do is test what its designers think an intelligent dog should know. Right away that gets us into trouble because, although fewer and fewer people cling to the idea that dogs don't think, a lot of people still believe that dogs think—or should think—the same way we do. However, dogs perceive their worlds quite differently from humans and use their brains differently to process that data."
"Intelligence is an elusive construct. Measuring problem solving skills helps us assess the intelligence quotient or IQ of an individual. Animals, including humans, learn to solve problems through interaction with their environments. Through trial and error or observation, an intelligent individual learns to predict outcomes of his actions accurately. "
"Aristotle, for example, argued that dogs and human beings differ only in the degree to which they possess certain mental abilities. Both have emotions, but those of human beings are more complex. Both learn, remember, solve problems, and benefit from experience, but human beings do these things better."
Good hunting
Posts: 236 | From: NW | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 14, 2004 05:35 PM
quote:
"Aristotle, for example, argued that dogs and human beings differ only in the degree to which they possess certain mental abilities. Both have emotions, but those of human beings are more complex. Both learn, remember, solve problems, and benefit from experience, but human beings do these things better."
Therfore; coyotes are "brain dead"?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31492 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted August 14, 2004 07:21 PM
Hmmmmm. Let's see. having had the opportunity in my pre-calling days to chase coyotes by every legal means in Kansas that I could afford, and that pretty much leaves the ol' door wide open, I recall an instance where we had three dog wagons bearing down on a coyote as he approached a country road. At ground zero, there was a big concrete culvert/ bridge through which a waterway ran from one section to the next. The coyote was coming south down that waterway when the first cast of four dogs was dropped on him. He immediately turned and came back over the top of the road between two trucks and down the other embankment, going out of sight of the pursuing greyhounds. While those four came to a screeching halt, wagon number two drops a second cast of four dogs on him. The first four heard the door drop, followed the sound, and took chase with the second group of four as the coyote ran up the waterway. The coyote circled up out of the basin onto the rim, made a 180 and headed back past the eight dogs in the bottom as he ran on the top. Dog wagon number three arrives on the scene, sees the melee unfolding and drops all eight of the dogs he had on board as the coyote once again crossed the road in front of us. The coyote hears the door drop, turns back into the waterway and heads back in amongst the previous eight, causing the first eight to run headlong into the second eight generating a huge amount of general confusion in the bottom of that "draw" with sixteen ramped up greyhounds looking for something to chew on. With dogs yelping, others barking, rolling around and running into and over one another, the coyote slips out the north (far) end of this cluster (oops!) and damned near makes his escape as we sit there with no more dogs. Unfortunately, he turned a fraction of a second too soon and tried to climb the slope along the waterway's edge thru a snow drift that was 'bout that much too long for coyote length legs. He got spotted, and the rest is history. Pretty damned impressive job of evading capture by sixteen guys that are bigger, faster and meaner than you are. Then again, maybe that coyote had been thru this exact same scenario enough times in its life to have developed a conditioned response. LOL
It's one thing to see a coyote respond to a call, totally duped, then in a split second, make a WAG to escape being shot. It's entirely something different to see a coyote run for its life over several miles only to find out he was headed someplace on purpose, and for a good reason. Especially when the coyote just disappears into thin air. I've seen them run three miles to bee line straight into a drain tube coming out of a pond dam. Conditioned? Wow!
Nope, I've studied animal behavior, too, and I've seen coyotes do things under the pressure of being pursued that are strongly indicative of reasoning and rationalization, albeit less extensive than what we are capable of doing. But, none the less, it's there.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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NASA
Knows what it's all about
Member # 177
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posted August 14, 2004 07:50 PM
5 million years ago, when early man was still on all fours and living in the trees, did he have the capacity to think? Or was he still just another "animal"?
3.6 million years later he left the trees and stood on his hind legs to survey the landscape. Still not much more than a terrestrial ape, but now he's Homo Erectus. Is that when animal instinct transitioned to thought processing? Remember, he still hadn't figured out fire or the wheel, yet. Not a whole lot of thought process evident at that stage, either.
It took Homo Erectus another 500,000 years before he finally figured out fire.
Who's to say that 500,000 years from now coyotes won't evolve into the mental equivalent of a present day Democrat?
[ August 14, 2004, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: NASA ]
Posts: 1168 | From: Typical White Person | Registered: Apr 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted August 14, 2004 08:17 PM
Cmon, NASA!!!
One minute, you're telling us that coyotes are mind numbingly stupid. The next, you insult them by suggesting that they'll devolve over the next 500K years. What?!?!? They'll get "feelings"??? LMAO
As one who professes to loving the coyote, that Democrat remark was just plain mean.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 14, 2004 10:23 PM
Man, a lot of material to choose from, but I'll pass. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31492 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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NASA
Knows what it's all about
Member # 177
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posted August 14, 2004 10:35 PM
Quote, "One minute, you're telling us that coyotes are mind numbingly stupid." No, no Lance, that was my buddy BM who said that. I hold coyotes in much higher regard. I said that in 500K years they may have moved up a notch on the evolutionary scale where they are no longer responsible for their own survival. They'll become wards of society and live a tax supported existence at the expense of the higher life forms. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
(edit) And by the way, I don't "love" coyotes. I understand and respect them. I admire them as a highly intelligent and cunning animal. However, I don't endow them with human characteristics. They are still just animals.
[ August 14, 2004, 10:49 PM: Message edited by: NASA ]
Posts: 1168 | From: Typical White Person | Registered: Apr 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 14, 2004 11:50 PM
quote:
And by the way, I don't "love" coyotes. I don't endow them with human characteristics. They are still just animals.
Baa yron, oh Baayron! Make him stop!
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31492 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted August 15, 2004 04:32 AM
Holy crap! I walzed right into that one.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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NASA
Knows what it's all about
Member # 177
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posted August 15, 2004 05:47 AM
Posts: 1168 | From: Typical White Person | Registered: Apr 2003
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Curt2u
Knows what it's all about
Member # 74
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posted August 15, 2004 07:37 AM
Ahhh, I can see it now. 500,000 years from now when coyotes evolve into the mental equivalent of a present day Democrat, calling will be a different game. The typical stand will have a Decoy Heart with a welfare check taped to it shaking furiously and a recording of trees and bunnies being hugged playing. Brain dead Demo-Yotes converging on the stand a dozen at a time.... LOL!
edit for spelling...
[ August 15, 2004, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: Curt2u ]
Posts: 236 | From: NW | Registered: Jan 2003
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NASA
Knows what it's all about
Member # 177
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posted August 15, 2004 08:03 AM
Now ya got it! And no season, no bag limit. Yee-haw!
Posts: 1168 | From: Typical White Person | Registered: Apr 2003
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brad h
Knows what it's all about
Member # 57
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posted August 15, 2004 08:12 AM
I would assume that by that point everyone's guns will have already been taken away.
Posts: 346 | From: Glendive MT | Registered: Jan 2003
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NASA
Knows what it's all about
Member # 177
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posted August 15, 2004 08:26 AM
...... and exchanged for Lithium Ion Phasers. Flat shooting within 1/1000 inch at 1500 meters with a 30 mph crosswind.
Posts: 1168 | From: Typical White Person | Registered: Apr 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted August 15, 2004 09:08 AM
and guaranteed to "neutralize (won't use harsh words like "kill" by that time) without any chance whatsoever that the demo-yote will "feel" anything.
And if you're a demo-yote hunter that can't quite get your spit straight, just ask for help. After all, by then, we'll most certainly have some kind of taxpayer funded entitlement program to help demo-yote wannabes be all they wannabe but don't wanna actually put in the time, gain the skills, or learn from trial and failure until they get it right.
[ August 15, 2004, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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NASA
Knows what it's all about
Member # 177
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posted August 15, 2004 10:06 AM
OMG, that's so funny, LOL! But I really should appologize for sidetracking this thread. Not intentional, but it sure took a funny turn. OK, I'm going to go watch Zepp's video now.
Posts: 1168 | From: Typical White Person | Registered: Apr 2003
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted August 15, 2004 10:28 AM
They are just damned coyotes, nothing more. Hell, Ive had a harder time catching a mouse thats been driving my wife nuts running around in our house. He's a smart sonofagun to. He has the uncanny ability to lick the peanut butter off the trip pan several times without getting his neck out of joint.Ive tried various baits, intricate positioning of the trap, nothing can catch this intellectual marvel of a rodent! Funny how smart they are, I suppose he will start leaving me notes soon. Hell, I think I'll calm my frazzled nerves and just go out and call a coyote in the morning....maybe giving me the contemplation I need to catch that little geniusus of a mouse.....he's almost human.
Posts: 1633 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted August 15, 2004 11:15 AM
Vic,
Put a little peanut butter or sharp cheddar cheese in the middle of a glue trap. Those things tend to put the frustration back on the mouse.
If you want even more fun, give the mouse, trap and all to the cats. Just don't tell your wife who suggested it!
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 15, 2004 12:43 PM
Slightly chewed bubblegum pressed well into the pan....or DeCon.
Jesus, if coyotes are only as smart as a Democrat, Krusty would have his 300 animal entry fee, by now.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31492 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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bucksnort
Miss Chris from AZ
Member # 202
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posted August 15, 2004 01:53 PM
Can somebody tell me if the new Martz Video comes with $500.00 HI-FI Stereo Speakers, a luggage carrier with wheels, a 2 mile remote, and weighs in around 25 lbs?????
As always, a very special "Hello" to my good friend Bill Martz.
Take care.
PS: The only dumb animal I know of, is an "Airdork"
Edited for dumb animal clarity.
[ August 15, 2004, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: bucksnort ]
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"There are lion chasers, lion catchers, and lying SOB's."
"Warriors of El Gato - The Lion"
Posts: 368 | From: Tucson, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Randy Buker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 134
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posted August 15, 2004 01:58 PM
Someone want to borrow me their copy of BM's tape? I'd love to see it but I won't give a dime to BM by buying it.
And, for the record, I believe that coyotes are at least as smart as BM.
Randy
[ August 15, 2004, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: Randy Buker ]
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Hunting the Red Fox
www.geocities.com/foxhunter_56308
Posts: 158 | From: Parkers Prairie, MN | Registered: Feb 2003
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