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Author
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Topic: Any opinions?
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JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228
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posted May 15, 2006 10:33 AM
My bet would be on a golden or an immature baldie. I've looked closely at hundreds of eagles and at times and certain angles their heads look too big to fit our picture of the streamlined bird. I've had to do a double-take more than 1x because the fat head said "owl" but the circumstance said eagle.
Also, I'd think that 10lbs. would be heavy for a fawn (not a muley)this time of year. I know I've picked up whitetail fawns in mid June that wouldn't weigh 10 pounds - as a rough guess.
Anybody ever read Kieths "Hell, I was there!". The "as he said it" second edition, not the first edition biography that was cleaned up. He is pretty hard on the eagles and hawks - just as I would expect from a fellow native Missourian.
He mentions the big horn sheep or mountain goat fawn leg count found under one golden eagle nest - I think there were 39 legs...
Posts: 646 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted May 15, 2006 02:24 PM
quote:
what is the best guess on the type of bird that drops a carp on a squad car? A bald eagle, right?
Maybe. Maybe an osprey, too. Owl? I seriously doubt it for the reasons you listed. I've seen ospreys hoist fish up to 3# before.
I've googled and reviewed a lot of material the past day about GHO feeding and hunting habits and have found many references to owls feeding on prey as large as racoons and housecats, and know for a fact that striped skunks are a favorite in their diet. But, no where is it found that any of these larger prey species were actually relocated from the kill site. I've tried to find a good picture of an owl carcass sans feathers so you could see just how scrawny they are. Literally look like a pencil with huge eyeballs. And as mentioned, the bones are all hollow, so there really is very little mass to them. Therefore, inutition and personal, hands on experience tells me that no great horned owl could cart off a fawn-sized critter. If anyone can prove otherwise, I'll admit I am wrong. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Just food for thought, here's an interesting report of a witnessed kill of a coyote by a golden eagle in 1998.
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ws/nwrc/is/00pubs/00-41.pdf
Now, THAT would be something to see.
[ May 15, 2006, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
Member # 19
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posted May 15, 2006 04:57 PM
While deer hunting in some heavy timber a number of years ago, I heard some thrashing in the knee high brush 30 yards ahead of me. I paused to see what was making the racket. A big owl flapped up out of the brush clutching a snowshoe hare. The owl looked like it was really struggling with the load and it dropped the hare before getting much more than six feet off the ground. I don't know for sure if it dropped the hare because of the weight or if having me close by made it decide to get airborne and away from any danger. I went up to take a look at the hare and suddenly that damn owl swooped over my head. I didn't expect that, and it scared the heck out of me. I figured if it wanted the meal that bad it could have it. I saw an owl carrying a rooster pheasant once, and another time what looked to be a grouse.
My father-in law watched a golden eagle pack off a mule deer fawn. It swooped in picked up the fawn and carried it for almost a half mile before landing in a cloud of dust, where it spent the next two hours eating the catch. According to him, the eagle never got more than about 30 feet off the ground with the fawn, but it didn't appear to struggle with the load either.
My guess would be the golden eagle. Either way Leonard, your daughter got to witness something very interesting.
Posts: 1209 | From: Lewiston, Idaho USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
Member # 19
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posted May 15, 2006 05:18 PM
Thanks for posting that C-dog. A trapper that I sold whole coyotes to when I was a teenager told me one coyote that he bought from me had some serious scars on it when he peeled the hide off. I asked him what would cause that? and he said likely an eagle.
My uncle told me of watching a golden eagle "ride" a mule deer doe its death on the range where they winter their cattle. The eagle just kept coming back and hitting and riding the doe until it was finally dead.
Posts: 1209 | From: Lewiston, Idaho USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228
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posted May 17, 2006 08:48 AM
Just some internet numbers I found, no guarantees - I just did a simple search on each bird name.
GH Owl weight - 3.1 lbs, avg.
Lift ability 8-9lbs. (wow! - came from a state univ. site???)
Baldie weight 9-14 lbs
Lift ability 1/2 body weight.
Carry (long term lift) 1/3 body weoght.
Goldie weight 18-22 lbs.
Lift ability 9-11 lbs.
Pound for pound that owl is impressive.
Fawn birthweight numbers were all over tthe place - the lowest being 3-6lbs for western deer. More typically numbers stating a range of 6-8lbs; mostly dependant on fawn sex.
Posts: 646 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 17, 2006 10:43 AM
Joe, just about all your data I find surprising! Not doubting you, of course. Just raising an eyebrow! Sometimes these Institutional Scholars (read:eggheads) can't figure out why a frog turns deaf when they cut off all of it's legs; as the old joke tells us. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31595 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228
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posted May 17, 2006 11:03 AM
Leonard,
That's why I posted them. Thought maybe it would stimulate some of the more research inclined to throw down some more grounded numbers. I just looked at the first few returns on each search.
The owl weight and the fawn size I have a bit of personal exposure to and can believe. I'd have never guessed any of those other numbers.
I do know(have witnessed) that an owl can lift a full grown cottontail or a full-grown hen chicken. A fawn would not be a stretch from the hen perspective.
Posts: 646 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 17, 2006 11:47 AM
Not only that, the word "fawn" covers a lot of ground, from birth to X months old. I think I need to ask her what time of year this happened? LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31595 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 17, 2006 12:20 PM
March. She was going to visit her mother-in-law, almost to the top of the hill near Lyford and Bartell Ct. in Tiberon.
see here: http://www.zillow.com/search/Search.htm?addrstrthood=1+Bartell&citystatezip=Tiberon%2C+CA&mode=search
Many estates, lots of pine trees, and wildlife corridors. Now, I wish I knew when blacktails drop their fawns?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31595 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228
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posted May 17, 2006 12:42 PM
March? That 'splains it all - a "premie" (premature) birth. Any ole bird worth his salt ought to be able to fly around with one of them.
BTW, the fawn weight numbers above were birth weights.
Posts: 646 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2003
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JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228
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posted May 17, 2006 12:46 PM
Man, after looking at the property prices in the link above I have little doubt that any owl (or hawk, or eagle) who could afford to live in that neighborhood could easily afford a couple of JATO packs for each wing.
Posts: 646 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 17, 2006 05:02 PM
Yes, Joe, that's true. Tiberon/Belvedere is like the Beverly Hills of Northern California.
Very nice, but what I mean, a lot of open, green areas. Back up that view and you will see that there is a lot of open spaces where the deer and the antelope play.
Beverly Hills, on the other hand, is completely urban. LB
edit: what you are looking at is the top of a mountain, with $$ views of San Francisco Bay or the SF skyline.
[ May 17, 2006, 05:18 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31595 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted May 17, 2006 05:08 PM
Man, I'd hate to be that poor bastard with the $1.76M shanty there just to the left of center. Probably some type of mobile-home motif thing going on.
As far as the numbers, I still disagree. An owl may be able to lift that amount off the ground, but they'd never be able to sustain that weight for long, and definitely not to carry it into the air 20'. An owl doesn't even have enough surface area to his wings to maintain soaring or kettling. They're like a pheasant - flap like hell and glide.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted May 19, 2006 12:29 AM
Leonard: I'm not doubting your daughter's ability to identify wildlife, but is it possible that this 'fawn' was a half grown Jack Rabbit??
A female tree hugger in the oh-my-God-I-must-save-this-poor-creature mode mistaking a Jack for a fawn......it would 'splain a lot.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7657 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 19, 2006 09:11 AM
I'll tell her you said that.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31595 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted May 19, 2006 10:37 AM
Especially since she had it in her car, held it in her hands, even rec'd verification from the vets (it sounds like) that it was, in fact, a deer. If she was so deluded thru all that to think a rabbit was a deer, I've got a house worth, oh,... coupla mill that I'll sell her. Sight unseen, of course.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 19, 2006 11:46 AM
Yes, a tree and bunny hugger, she is.
Years ago, I took the family up to the Sierra's. We rented a boat and fished June Lake. We sat in one spot for hours, with nothing happening and decided to reel it in, and head for the dock.
Everything went fine, until Shelley's (age 6 or 7) line came up and there was a 10" trout floating belly up, having swallowed a cheese ball on a #14 trebble hook; hours ago, judging by the condition? Surprised, I took the rod from her, and she started shrieking:
"Don't kill it! Don't kill it!"
Since then, only the boys have gone fishing.
......yes, the Vet and the Humane shelter both confirmed it was a dead fawn. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31595 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted May 19, 2006 06:57 PM
Oh well, just a thought.
My taxidermist has had a trophy 'bobcat' brought in that was an orange tabby so I didn't think that a Jack for a fawn would be to much of a streach.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7657 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted May 19, 2006 07:02 PM
A jackrabbit, in Marin County (a lush green thick jungle, on a coastal peninsula) would be harder to swallow than any of the other "facts" in this case.
I'd be just as shocked if the fawn was the size of a cottontail (with long pencils for legs).
I remember seeing a picture of a fawn, curled up in a wide shoebox, at the animal rescue center (they are often found, and assumed abandoned).
That an owl, might make a daylight attempt, to steal away with a fresh blacktail fawn (in the deep dark of a coastal rain forest), and fail at that attempt (espescially in the face of danger, like an approaching vehicle), doesn't sound any more far fetched than many of the things I have seen, or heard of, critters doing.
It's not like she said the owl zoomed skyward with the load, never to be seen again.
I believe her.
My wife, Shelly, is a bunny hugger too (but she will bait her own hook, club her own fish, and cook anything I bring home cleaned... even if she might not eat it).
Krusty 
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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NASA
Knows what it's all about
Member # 177
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posted June 19, 2006 01:40 PM
OK, here's an "opinion" from a falconer. I've had hawks, eagles, falcons, and owls. I've trapped them and taken them from nests for training. I've carried them around on my fist for hours on end. I know what they are capable of "killing" and what a trained bird will "attempt" to kill.
A horned owl won't even consider killing a fawn. Males are smaller than females, which only weigh 3 lbs, anyway. Neither will a redtail, the largest of the buteos in CA. A female redtail is about 3.5 lbs. These birds look large, but they are all feathers.
Vultures and condors are large enough and strong enough, but are physically incapable of the task. They have feet like a chicken and are only capable of scratching and perching. They cannot grasp and clutch like the other raptors. That's why they gorge on carrion, fly back to the nest, and regurgitate to feed their young. Hawks, eagles, falcons, and owls carry prey in their talons back to the nest to feed their young.
The answer to the riddle is golden eagle. They have the power and size, 7' wingspan and up to 18 lbs in wieght. Probably an immature golden which are much darker than than the adults.
A young golden can carry about 7 lbs, where an adult can easily carry 9-10 lbs. This would account for the fawn being dropped. It was a little more than an immature bird was capable of carrying for any significant distance.
Posts: 1168 | From: Typical White Person | Registered: Apr 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted June 19, 2006 02:24 PM
Tom, Other than my own and my former boss's, your opinion on all matters raptor is solid as a rock with me. Your remarks pretty much parallel mine and after the last 24 hours, it's good to see someone on this board that I can agree with on something. Now, the big questioon... have you ever shot one and, if so, did I arrest you?
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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NASA
Knows what it's all about
Member # 177
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posted June 19, 2006 03:47 PM
Lance, in all honesty, I'll fess up. I've never admitted this before, but in 19xx I did it. Not intentional. Well, maybe. A little. Hell, I was only seventeen. Dove hunting in a grove of trees a little after noon. Trying to kick some out of the trees. All of a sudden, a bigassed horned owl comes off a low branch near me. Scared the Shite outta' me. It was just an impulse reaction and I turned and fired from the hip. I didn't even realize what it was until I picked it up.
So that is my transgression. I've spent the rest of my life trying to make it up to birds of prey, every chance I get. Take this last weekend, for example. For 4 days I left offerings of dissected prairie dogs and jack rabbits all over the southern Wy landscape. They didn't even have to break a sweat to dine on that fine buffet I left for them. I hope I'm forgiven. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ June 19, 2006, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: NASA ]
Posts: 1168 | From: Typical White Person | Registered: Apr 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 19, 2006 04:06 PM
Sic him, Lance!
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31595 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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NASA
Knows what it's all about
Member # 177
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posted June 19, 2006 04:28 PM
Sic 'em? ![[Confused]](confused.gif) Hey, what about the statute of limitations?
Posts: 1168 | From: Typical White Person | Registered: Apr 2003
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