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Author
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Topic: A white Christmas?
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted December 30, 2009 04:14 AM
I'd be willing to bet that I don't even SEE 90% of the coyotes I call. LOL
Patterson,
To clarify, I don't hold a lot of faith in howling to locate prior to calling around here. Just not a reliable indicator of their presence because of their tendency to be tight-lipped. Not at all uncommon in country where these coyotes are relentlessly being shoved around by us, dog wagons, pheasant hunters, etc., ad nauseum.
But, as far as howling in general, I use it a LOT. Almost every stand, in fact. I've laid off of it for the last month or so just to let it cool down, but it is a critical part of my repertoire. You've noticed how, with those <100 yard coyotes who seem to just appear and be by you and gone, the hunting here is somewhat different than in Colorado. I hate that, too, but holwing is one way to minimize those occurences. When coming to just dinner, they'll hard charge and be there and gone before you can react. Start things out with 1 or 3 young female howls and it gives them reason to approach with some caution to check things out. Often circling downwind, at a conservative lope. Easy target.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted December 30, 2009 04:44 AM
A few pics from the hunting the past couple days,
This first is the coyote I got Sunday morning behind a feedlot full of longhorn cattle. I'm using a factory load that is spot on accurate, but I've yet to see a bang flop with it. My prior handloads were dropping them dead with a mv of 3680 fps. These new loads are stated to be at 3500 fps mv and there is a difference in losing that 180 fps.
Second one is the 2 of 3 I got yesterday morning. Again, same load, the first unzipped and stood out there while I reloaded. He's the big one hanging. The one I'm holding ran at me about forty yards before piling up.
This last pic is of a pair I saw on the way to a dr's appointment. They're actually 300 yards away and then some, across a river. Used my camera's max zoom and wish they hadn't split to opposite sides of this cottonwood tree. I have permission over there, but didn't have a gun with me.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 30, 2009 09:44 AM
Lance, maybe I should remember what you are using, but I don't? 22-250? What is the cartridge and what's the bullet and who makes it? If the published velocity is 3500, how did you determine the velocity of your handloads and why did you quit using them? I just figure, once a handloader, always a handloader? Of the six or eight rifles that I use most often, none of them has seen a factory cartridge, ever.
I use howls very frequently, but like you, the coyotes don't often respond vocally. However, by "very frequently" I mean, on almost every stand, but only a couple times in a twelve minute stand.
I think the reason Higgins routinely gets them in close is because the coyotes are a lot more confident to approach in that heavier cover, and he is persistant and mixes it up nicely? The other thing is they will be downwind and he uses a lot of mist. I'm pretty sure he uses as much in the daytime as I use at night?
The axiom; the heavier the cover, the softer the call, the closer the approach, is a good one.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31460 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Patterson
19.6 miles down the Yellow Brick Road from THE EMERALD CITY
Member # 3304
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posted December 30, 2009 10:31 AM
Thats why I love this site compared to all the others. Actual useful hints among all the BS(which I like, even the WT fiascos) from guys that actually know how to hunt them sucessfully and have years under their belts.Thats why I lurk here more then anywhere else ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) .
I know a lot of guys like to howl to start a stand, but I really like your theory on why/when you do it Lance and Leonard. It does make sense. I have tried it to open a stand but the few times I have done it I got scenes of a coyote running the other way tail tucked engrained in my head. Might have been younger dogs but more then likely it was because I dont truelly understand howling all well. That will take time reading, learning, experimenting and doing to figure out. I dont even leave the truck without the shotgun around here anymore. In fact multiple times this year I have only grabbed the shotgun. I guess that is how I have combated the fast hard charger in tight cover issue using only distresses.
Posts: 236 | From: Kansas | Registered: Nov 2008
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted December 30, 2009 03:43 PM
Leonard,
I do use 22-250. I was running short on handloads this year that another guy does for me - 55 grain Sierra Blitzkings on those and he had them chrono'd. Despite my best efforts, I could not get any primers for him, so I went to Plan B and bought a bunch of factory stuff so I had ammo at least whose ballistics show a mv of 3500 fps. They're shooting 55 grn Vmaxes which I also like and, off the bench, I could put 5 rounds under a nickel at 100 (better than the handloads were doing). You can tell the difference in the recoil and report, and I can tolerate them running just a bit as long as they eventually fall over. ![[Wink]](wink.gif) All the shots I've made with this round have been from 30-200 yards with the same results. I'm curious about how this lesser terminal performance will come out on 'cats. I'll let you know if I ever get a shot at another one this season.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 30, 2009 06:29 PM
I use that same bullet, 55 VMax in a 223AI. I have not had anything but bang/flops. I have saved tapes out in the garage, chron'od through my Oehler, but for some reason I can't tell you what the MV is, exactly? All I remember is I get about 50fps over a stock 223Rem, hardly worth the fuss and bother? But, it's a good killer at that velocity and not (first and foremost) a particularly good fur bullet. Which is what I want in a coyote bullet.
I didn't realize that you don't handload, yourself? I think everybody with a centerfire rifle would be wise to handload, and it's not because of economy.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31460 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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fgf4
unknown comic
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posted December 31, 2009 04:19 AM
I tried shooting the 55VMax's from my 22PPC(1-14 twist)at around 3450-3500fps, they did the job and make jellied coyote at under 300yds but they also will splash if you hit a bone up close.
I really prefer the 50VMax's at 3650-3700 in my .22PPC but they can sometimes get real nasty on bone! They just seem to work better all around and are more accurate in my gun, too.
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted December 31, 2009 05:57 AM
quote:
To clarify, I don't hold a lot of faith in howling to locate prior to calling around here. Just not a reliable indicator of their presence because of their tendency to be tight-lipped. Not at all uncommon in country where these coyotes are relentlessly being shoved around by us, dog wagons, pheasant hunters, etc.,
My coyotes are pressured just as much as youre's Lance and i'll also admitt there are a few that won't respond to a locate howl, but those that don't are far and very few..
I located alot of coyotes here at home all summer long and dureing the fall and winter. I know where they are and have called to many of them and still no response other than i got some to howl while i was calling at nite.. They had there chance to come in to the call and die like a coyote but they refused..LOL To date the crew and I have taken almost 3/4 of the coyotes i have located..
As far as locateing in S.D. it will put you onto alot of coyotes and i also found out you don't have to locate everytime out once you know where they like to hang and what the numbers are.. Another thing on locateing is you can get a good idea of whats there and by knowing this you will know what sounds you should use and what not to use..
My last trip i did a little howling on some stands and lost some coyotes for doing so.. On a good note i was still able to comeback and call them in the following day on just prey distress..
I still use howls on my stands but i save them for towards the end of the stand or if i know i'm calling to an older coyote.. Did i say i also use a WT???
From what i've seen on shot coyotes if a bullet is traveling 3700 or faster it seems to do a better job of putting them down than a slower bullet.. A hunter also needs to keep in mind when hunting the colder temp.s that you are going to lose more vel.. So if you have a cartridge thats comeing out of the barrel at 3500 dureing the summer its only going about 3200 in the colder temps, thats why i like to reload and use what Leonard calls hotrods....
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted December 31, 2009 02:10 PM
I haven't been enough yet this year to know nothing but I don't like to howl much. Knowing where they "should be" is what I concentrate on.
On boolits, I've always had better luck with 50's than 55's in the 22-250 or 223's.
Maybe I can find some time this weekend to try my theory out again.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted December 31, 2009 02:52 PM
quote:
My coyotes are pressured just as much as youre's Lance and i'll also admitt there are a few that won't respond to a locate howl, but those that don't are far and very few..
When I refer to my coyotes being pressured, Tim, I don't simply mean myself and a half-dozen other guys calling them. I'd be willing to bet that most coyotes around here get bumped around and shot in the ass at least twice every week, and more like four to five times by people hunting just about everything, including pheasants, quail, ducks, geese, rabbits, and of course, coyotes. I'll bet that those SD coyotes don't see nearly the human presence in their country that mine do.
I'm just saying that, at this time of the year, especially in the wake of firearms deer season when these idiots around here will groom a stand site for a month then blow it opening morning by ripping a 300 yard shot at a mangy coyote across the field because they couldn't help themselves then wonder why they didn't see any deer. (Deep breath) Anyway, at this time of the year, there isn't a coyote worth his shit that will be seen in the light of day on open ground, and you can howl your fool head off before you're going to get one to answer you back. And that goes for the WT sounds, too. They're good, but they ain't fooling no ears around here enough to make them answer back. They'll come and check it out, but they aren't going to sound off first. On a very rare occasion, they will, but rarely after deer season.
As far as the value of howling in locating, I find my 30+ years of calling these spots more reliable because of the land use around here. Coyotes use the same pockets and trails now that they did when I started chasing them with my dad and grandpa in trucks 40 years ago. Even if and when I do howl, the results can be misleading. If one answers, they're there. If they don't answer, that tells you nothing. Maybe they aren't there. Maybe they are and don't want to answer. Do you pass up that spot and move on even though your gut and experience tells you that it's a good place to call? What if you get no responses? Call it a day and go home before sunrise?
I've tried a lot of different sceanarios as far as where I put a howl into my sequence and have found that at the begiining works best for me. It's been my experience, which may differ from yours, that howling tends to slow things down this early on and through most of fur season. Rather than running pell mell into me as with a distress sound, they tend to circle downwind and move in with some caution, head down, taking a few steps and stopping to raise their head and reconnoiter, then repeat. By my best guess, most times a howl will put the stand at a minimum 15 minutes and more like 20 minutes before they make an appearance, so I like to howl at the beginning rather than somewhere in the middle where all it does is put the skids to things, slow things down when the stand is mostly over and protract things to a half-hour or more of waiting. I keep my howls very high-pitched, somewhat long and tapering, and try not to elicit too radical a response. I just want them curious, not all radicalized like a panty bomber.
It's always interesting to see and read other guys' ways of using different sounds.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 31, 2009 02:53 PM
Coyotes and 50 grain .224" bullets don't mix, Amigo.
Eventually, you will find this to be true.
Oh hell, go ahead! Who cares?
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31460 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted December 31, 2009 03:00 PM
Lance. The pressured coyotes i'm refering to are the ones here in Mn.. They also get kicked around likes youre's do for two to three months by farmers and other hunters, but most of them still respond to a howl at nite...
quote:
Even if and when I do howl, the results can be misleading. If one answers, they're there. If they don't answer, that tells you nothing. Maybe they aren't there. Maybe they are and don't want to answer. Do you pass up that spot and move on even though your gut and experience tells you that it's a good place to call? What if you get no responses? Call it a day and go home before sunrise?
I'm also like you i will call some areas even if i don't get a response, but i will work the areas where they did respond first...
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted December 31, 2009 04:13 PM
Sorry Leonard, I'll trust my own experience and know they kill better than any other weight in 22 caliber. I've tried 40's 45's 55's 60's and 77's in different brands in 222's 223's and 22-250's, many guns and many coyotes over the years.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted December 31, 2009 04:14 PM
Well the 77's are impressive.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 31, 2009 04:22 PM
quote:
Sorry Leonard, I'll trust my own experience and know they kill better than any other weight in 22 caliber. I've tried 40's 45's 55's 60's and 77's in different brands
Yeah, okay. Just remember, I told ya. lol
So, I'm curious. Not arguing, just curious. What 50 grain bullet?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31460 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted December 31, 2009 10:54 PM
I've run the Nosler Ballistic tips, Hornady V-max's, Sierra Blitz Kings, Rem & Win soft points and now Federal Hollow points along with a few others.
My first coyote rig was a rem 700 in 222 and the 40gr NBT's were my choice, then the 50's. I've run em at just under 3000 fps in a 223 contender pistol and my hunting partner runs them in his 223 WSSM at just over 4000 fps. Yes my 243 AI kills better, so did my 25-06 but there's nothing wrong with the 50's especialy when compared to the 55's and they remain my favorite bullet weight in .224 caliber for coyotes.
Happy New Year!
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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