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Author
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Topic: Reliable source
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Dan Carey
unknown comic
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posted March 04, 2010 05:52 AM
I read these pages with great wonderment. What drives grown men to argue about an animal with a street value of about $5. I'm appalled, life was never meant to be a drama over such a trivial subject
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Joel Hughes
SPECIAL GUEST
Member # 384
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posted March 04, 2010 05:59 AM
"What drives grown men to argue about...."
Now you have to admit, that right there is pretty funny. From Mr. internet grownup himself. LOL
Posts: 145 | From: texas | Registered: Aug 2004
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Randy Roede
"It's Roede, like in Yotie
Member # 1273
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posted March 04, 2010 06:22 AM
A question I would have for those units in AZ. with such fawn mortality is, what if the survival rate goes up in the future? Is there a season then in those units, left to be dictated by a magical number? The old foot in the door concept.
Sometimes the agenda of a season or a regulation is hidden in its conception and revealed later on when it is to late. It takes much less time to make a regulation than to change one!
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The only person dumber than the village idiot is the person who argues with him!
Posts: 669 | From: Pierre SD | Registered: Mar 2007
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 04, 2010 06:35 AM
I think I agree with DAA, Joel Geordie and Randy Roade. And Kelly. But, Carey told me at the campout that the first thing he does is lie, so let's see what else happens?
It seems that the subject is seasons on coyotes, which is what my source told me before our "Reliable Source" (Higgins) corrected my statement with a refute that still doesn't tell me what is his position?
I've asked, but I get no response so until he grows a backbone, we will still be guessing?
And, Andy is "this close" to shutting this thread down! ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
Can't blame him, either.
Good hunting. LB
[ March 04, 2010, 06:37 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
Member # 19
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posted March 04, 2010 07:07 AM
Just like Geordie said, I'm also "cautiously optimistic" about the future of hunting predators big and small. I don't lie awake at night worrying about what the anti's are up to or the possibility of my kids getting attacked by a coyotes while waiting for the school bus. At this point, making changes like coyote seasons, just so a coyote can be given some kind of status in the eyes of the big game crowd is a step in the wrong direction.
Just the thought of seasons, tag fees, special licenses, scoring charts, skull measurements, etc.. applied to coyotes makes me sick. I just don't understand the need to possibly change something that is pretty damn good just the way it is to help promote the "sport." Gawd, I thought I was the only one who hated that term "sport" applied to coyote hunting...
Posts: 1209 | From: Lewiston, Idaho USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 04, 2010 08:02 AM
Hmm? I didn't know there was a problem with describing predator hunting as sport, versus "control effort"? I mean, if some people think I'm performing a valuable service, that's fine, but for me, it's just recreation, so is there a more politically correct term we should be using? Maybe Cult Guru Higgins can tell us what he wants to call it?
By the way, I also think (like Dave) that we need more coyotes, in some cases. Seasons and bag limits is not a good way to get that way. All you have to do is look at the bobcat situation in CA. It went from unregulated to five per season, upon the purchase of tags, applied for in person at F&G District Headquarters, a distinct (and unnecessary) inconvenience. Also, unjustified. That's what can happen when you petition for elevated status. What kind of dumb shit would want state or federal involvement in protecting the noble coyote?
Hey Rich, feel free to jump in here with corrections, anytime. FYI, he is one of my closest friends and now, regretably, I don't even know him?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
Member # 19
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posted March 04, 2010 09:00 AM
Leonard, Just some petty bitchin' on my part. I'm sure I've used the term myself. For me, it mostly comes from the internet promoters who are constantly reminding anyone and everyone that we must "promote the sport" "save the sport" "regulate the sport" and "represent the sport."
Hell, after awhile I'm not sure if we are talking about golf or coyote hunting.
Posts: 1209 | From: Lewiston, Idaho USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
Member # 884
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posted March 04, 2010 09:18 AM
Lonny, I think there a a fair number of people who feel the same way about the term 'sport'. I think it is more the people using the term and the implications they imply. As if something needs saving or promoting.
quote:
... so is there a more politically correct term we should be using?
How about 'Activity'? Or maybe 'Recreational activity'(RA for short). Either way, in my opinion, sports involve balls, which seem to be lacking here lately.
Maintain
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
Posts: 1025 | From: on a water tower | Registered: Jul 2006
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Aznative
FARTS ON CLUELESS LIBERALS
Member # 506
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posted March 04, 2010 09:58 AM
We sure are arguing a whole lot about the issue of having a coyote season which I'm 100% against. With that said we need to stay super vigilant against those sandal wearing loonie tuners. We all know the type. They want to drain Lake Powell, mandate no lead ammo, eliminate roads in the national monuments, ban motorized river guides, reintroduce wolves everywhere possible, reinstate the AWB, and put more land under federal control thru creation of national monuments, etc. I know of one person that wants to do all of the above. Kim Crumbo is an ex navy seal that is working and politicking at every possible opportunity to accomplish all of the above. We need to be watchful against a season on coyotes, but we need to watch out for those sandal wearing loonie tuners even more so.
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Never thought the devil would need a teleprompter but I could be wrong.
United State of America: RIP
Born July 4th 1776 died November 6th 2012
Posts: 1924 | From: Phoenix Az | Registered: Jan 2005
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted March 04, 2010 11:16 AM
Geordie,
I am against any seasons to regulate the coyote itself. Don't think they need it because, as everyone knows, they do a dandy job of replacing any losses and filling any voids all on their own. If there was a way to manage them for more of them, I'd be all for that. We've had a great time this year with the highest numbers I've seen in my lifetime in KS along with weather conditions that shut the dog guys down completely.
If there was ever a need for some type management, I feel it would fall under people management as a way of protecting the image of coyote calling and public perception of the same. And, this is where organizing would be helpful, if for no other reason than to police our own ranks to avoid giving the greenies a foothold. We don't hunt in a vacuum. As much as the reasons for what we do seem valid, I still subscribe to the belief that we hunt because society allows us to do so. If the public is swayed against us, for any other reason, things can go badly, quickly. Just look at trapping in Colorado and the "Human Dimesions Division" of the Colorado Division of Wildlife to get a better understanding.
Short answer to your question: No.
[ March 04, 2010, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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fgf4
unknown comic
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posted March 04, 2010 11:32 AM
I'd just like to say, I use the term "sport" as an alternative to some of the more PC terms which some have pointed out. It is nothing more than a general term of description.
I am also against actually promoting the sport, hunt, kill or anything else we could call it as something everyone should be out doing. I especially don't believe in promoting coyote hunting just so companies can make more money, but that is also an effect of what we have all been doing. We buy the new camo, ecallers, guns and such so we are the problem there as well.
I love hunting coyotes... it is about the only hunting I do enjoy. Indirectly I guess we all are promoting the hunting of coyotes just by discussing it online and making it sound exciting.
I also hunt deer, but sitting in a tree stand waiting for a deer to walk by just isn't much fun. It's relaxing but isn't really what I call fun.
I am also dead set against seasons on coyotes or other predators, even cats, bears, cougar, wolves, badger, hogs etc. We as hunters should be able to impose our own restraints(notice I said restraints, not restrictions)on hunting during breeding times. That seems pretty simple logic to me.
I also don't believe in elevating any such predator to "Big Game" status, why do we as hunters need too? I sure as hell don't need a "Big Game" trophy hanging on the wall to feel good about my hunting experiences!
Nikonut
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tlbradford
Rimfires are MAGIC on COYOTES! If you do your part
Member # 1232
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posted March 04, 2010 12:18 PM
quote:
If there was ever a need for some type management, I feel it would fall under people management as a way of protecting the image of coyote calling and public perception of the same. And, this is where organizing would be helpful, if for no other reason than to police ournown ranks to avoid giving the greenies a foothold.
Sound like a good reason to shut PM down.
To me a coyote is a varmint, and should be regulated as such. If there comes a time when I see hunting actually affect the population, I may change my mind, but I don't see that happening anytime in the near future. If anything, I am hopeful that the pressure will die down in a few years when people realize it isn't as easy as it looks in the videos.
FWIW I don't think Higgins has stated what he is "for" either.
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"Dan Carey ain't that special" - LB
Posts: 423 | From: Spokane Valley, WA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted March 04, 2010 01:50 PM
Randy Roede wrote:
A question I would have for those units in AZ. with such fawn mortality is, what if the survival rate goes up in the future? Is there a season then in those units, left to be dictated by a magical number? The old foot in the door concept.
Sometimes the agenda of a season or a regulation is hidden in its conception and revealed later on when it is to late. It takes much less time to make a regulation than to change one!
Randy there is no season on coyotes in those units now,why would they put one in place later.
There is no season on coyotes anywhere in az.
I for one do not hunt coyotes druing dennig
But after hearing our furbearer biologist give his presentation on fawn mortality among the antelope in those units I plan to hunt up north both to get away from the desert heat and to do what little good we can for the antelope herds in those units,while extending my season. I really dont suspect any hidden agenda
p.s. our furbearer biologist is and avid caller and predator hunter as well.
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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
Posts: 4188 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 04, 2010 03:07 PM
Be that as it may....I have just got off the phone with "DEEP THROAT".
I know what Higgins wants and what he is doing but won't admit.
Thank god somebody has a set.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted March 04, 2010 03:37 PM
Can you fill us in Leonard?
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted March 04, 2010 03:50 PM
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 04, 2010 03:55 PM
Well, basically, in spite of all the carefully constructed denials, what I wrote several days ago is essentially accurate.
And, I guess he probably thought I was "in the know" and just tweaking him? Not the case. I had no clue what the hell he was talking about.
But, his honesty is what might possibly be in question, at this point? He started these three pages calling my source unreliable. My source appears to be more reliable than the Professor?
Good hunting. LB
Dan, you da man!
edit: Oops! can't say any more because Andy is just itching to lock er up!
[ March 04, 2010, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228
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posted March 04, 2010 04:23 PM
Gotta come back at/to Andy a page or so ago.
I was typing short and pissy yesterday - a work injury. Now I'm taking a steroid and they say one of the side effects is irritability....
Andy, you will never hear me bad mouth the Mo. Conservation Dept. They are a model dept that most states could only hope to imitate.
I have been on both sides of an interaction with them - pure professionalism.
Non-residents now have to have a furbearer's license or whatever it is called. Honestly, that could have been the law for years and I operated in ignorance.
Something like $140. Not much, but I have kids, step kids, college educations, an ex-wife (with a good lawyer), girlfriends, vast and varied interests, and a slew of bad habits. That extra $140 or so was kinda the straw that broke the camels back.
We do not need any more licensing, any more seasons, or any more attention.
Posts: 646 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted March 04, 2010 04:54 PM
I can be friends with someone and not agree with them. Rich is an example, as are ARShaw and Q who both detest the promotion of calling in any form. If I weren't an international predator calling sex symbol, I likely would never have met either of them. Irony.
Despite Rich's opinion, it's only one and in order for him to pursue a presumed agenda, he has to get the idea past a majority of members of that board. To me, in order for any nomination I make or vote for to pass the smell test, their position, past and present, on coyotes will have to support the concept of managing coyotes without the influence of emotional rhetoric, i.e., cute little puppies.
I've quit hunting recreationally for the year, but I just spent an hour loading the ATV in my truck and going through my gear for another one of my PDM hunts tomorrow morning because I have a pair of black-backed coyotes that have scored two kills on newborn calves in the past week and a half. My goal, free of any emotional investment, is very simple: Kill one or both of the mated pair as soon as I get the chance. Hopefully, the female will present herself and I can kill her and her tummy full of future munchers in one fell swoop, thus removing the onus for the male to continue doing his wet work. If'n I can't get that done before whelping, I'll just have to work on the male and eliminate her meals on wheels. I have no remorse for these two coyotes as they're causing my landowner grief. I won't mourn the loss of the pups knowing that any void killing them might create will quickly be filled by others nearby. Once the situation appears to be handled - such as if I kill one or both tomorrow - I'll put my gear away and do a follow up in a few days to see how things are going. If the owner is still seeing coyotes in the calving pasture, I'll return and do more calling, but I won't be killing coyotes just for the sake of killing coyotes. My "pay" for helping these guys is access to otherwise restricted private property and indiscriminate killing would simply be self-defeating in the long term.
Do I support the concept of regulating hunting with a season during denning time? No. At the same time, I don't support killing coyotes for the sake of just killing. Once they cross the line, they've given us a reason to do what needs to be done.
Do I support the concept of establishing seasons on coyotes for any reason? No. Regulated harvests are a means by which a population is harvested in a controlled manner to reduce populations beneath what their habitat will carry over through the winter and to ensure that enough breeding stock survives to sustain ongoing yields. Because of the coyote's inherent ability to reproduce in response to weak or excessive harvest pressures and to fill the void created, I don't ever foresee any action taken to prevent such an extreme kill that the population will not recover.
Having said that, and referring back to the remarks I made about people management during my lunch today, I very much hope that we can avoid ever having to deal with "people management" as it applies to coyote management because, frankly, we're likely to lose that fight. The reasons for trapping make all the sense in the world to us, but look at the hits trappers take when scrutinized by an ignorant public. Sadly, any wildlife biologist will tel you that managing wildlife resources in today's world is 60%+ managing people, and the remainder managing the actual resource. It's a damned shame that this is what we've come to because the resource should ALWAYS be our primary concern regardless of petty emotional responses to non-natural mortality, i.e., hunting, trapping. I just am concerned that if we don't manage our own affairs, others will manage them for us. For now, I say we aggressively maintain the "mind your own business" stance, but prepare in advance to identify our fallback positions and expectations/ needs should we ever find ourselves defending what is, to us, not indefensible.
That's the nuts and bolts of where I stand on the entire issue. didn't have time to really get into it earlier, so I just added some to my earlier remarks. It simply isn't as simple to me as black and white. The issue is somewhat complex, as should be the response. Because of that, I think the worst position to take is one of all or none to one side. Realistically expect that down the line each of us may face compromises and know now what we expect, need and want.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted March 04, 2010 05:08 PM
Hey Lb, This is Tyler. I have to ask, whats your problem with my dad? I have never heard him say anything bad about you. And what do you mean you know what my dad wants but he's not willing to admit it, I asked him what he want's and he said a Ruger number 1.
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted March 04, 2010 05:43 PM
Leonard's giving away guns?!? Sign me up.
And Tyler, we need to talk.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted March 04, 2010 06:04 PM
An interesting situation, why do they call it a sport? Let's see, we have been known as sportsmen for decades, jumping ducks is giving them a sporting chance.
Non sportsmanlike is used mostly for football but have you ever heard of a football or basketball player called a sportsman? Even bull riders are called athletes not sportsmen.
But I still think of a game when I hear sport.
And not a single person has given the official position of AJ or Skippy.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted March 04, 2010 06:19 PM
Last warning, I cant take much more. Next person who claims we are not athletes and Im lockin this thread.
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted March 04, 2010 06:21 PM
quote:
Despite Rich's opinion, it's only one and in order for him to pursue a presumed agenda, he has to get the idea past a majority of members of that board
Cdog, the term "agenda" was used by me in my post. I meant nothing derogatory in its use, and it was (and still is) the best word I can think of for the issue.
If we can put our heads together and come up with a more appropriate, less offensive term I am all for it.
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted March 04, 2010 06:45 PM
You may have used it, but others have certainly inferred it, and hasn't this entire thread been based upon what one person felt someone else inferred? ![[Wink]](wink.gif) I'm not offended by it, and I guess that when others accuse Rich of some diabolically evil plan, "agenda" fits.
Whose "numbnuts"?
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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