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Author
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Topic: Coyote calling demographics
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JD
HONORARY OKIE .... and Tim's at fault!
Member # 768
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posted December 30, 2005 05:38 PM
Leonard, I didn`t mean to be rude in my ignorance although I do have a knack for being rude at times, I was just under the impression that there was a thread of some sort that pertained to it on PM & I`m sincere in my efforts to get the facts concerning it. I`m not all that interested in bygones between boards or who called who a hairlip, it`s all quite amusing at times but after the dust settles I`m really more interested in improving my calling skills, I believe that is the common thread between MOST callers no matter how ugly it gets on the boards. Again, I didn`t mean to insult you, just looking for answers.
[ December 30, 2005, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: JD ]
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Jason
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What do Obama & TA17Rem have in common........both are clueless asshats!!!
Posts: 1456 | From: NE. | Registered: Dec 2005
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Gerald Stewart
Knows what it's all about
Member # 162
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posted December 30, 2005 05:42 PM
Hey Cal, not offended at all about your opinion of the OP2 video, even in light of the fact that I was the one that pushed the hardest for that philosophy to be used. The first OP was 2\3rds completed when our company was bought in 99. I was sort of fit in at the last minute. It was purely an entertainment video.
I personally have never liked the whack'em and stack'em videos from any catagory of wildlife. That is just me personally. If it has to be done, it should be done with taste, but that is another chest thumping debate...not for this thread.
I liked the teaching\action philosophy that HS used on their award winning "So you want to be" series on Archery and Turkey hunting. I even pushed for them to get away from the OP Title and use "So you want to be a Coyote Hunter" title. I lost on that one.
They were reluctant to use that style on coyotes because the first two were not the tremendous financial successes they hoped for ...in spite of their quality production and informational values. I came from a background of having had my ear to the ground on what most of my JS customers were asking for. That was a good teaching video on calling coyotes. The Eastern hunters were strongly asking for that.
Take two useful, very sought after products that appeal one each to Eastern and Western Coyote hunters and I would want to market the one the Easterners want. The potential for sales is far greater East of the Mississippi than west of it.
I wanted a teaching video for all watchers to be in our library, which is more closely satisfied by the OP2 video. The Eastern guys will still be left wanting somewhat and I tend to agree with them. There is a ton of very good and useful info in that one for viewers on both sides of the big river.
A seasoned veteran like yourself and the "pampus knows it alls" will be pretty bored with it but I am thrilled and gratified with the feedback we get from those thirsting for knowledge....on any level. If a viewer who wants to see lots of splatter looks at OP2 he will be dissappointed. If you only want to be entertained...you may be let down. We have quite a number congratulate us on both. As for your reluctance to teach...man give us all you got and then acknowledge those you have learned from at some point on the video. I personally believe that your attitude about that is misplaced. I say that in a "brotherly" way.
I am really torn about this thread. I think it has gotten way out of hand and am honestly pretty dissappointed about how it has gone on. I have good friends on both sides and probably will just have to remain as neutral as I can. My mouth will get me in trouble if I speak frankly about it. I went over and found the misting thread on the PM board and read it.
I can't help but believe ego's have run amuck. Characterizations are being validated right and left. Factionalism abounds. I will stop short of being that Rodney guy from LA, but it is almost to that point. I honestly don't see much respect being shown for others opinions on this subject.
The internet is the last place to have a discussion like this because of its shortcomings. Kind of reminds me of the old flame wars on the Shade Tree. That makes me very sad. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
[ December 30, 2005, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]
Posts: 419 | From: Waco,Tx | Registered: Mar 2003
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JD
HONORARY OKIE .... and Tim's at fault!
Member # 768
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posted December 30, 2005 06:08 PM
I couldn`t find that thread nor do I want to if it`s merely a flame fest, I guess I`ll see if I can find the controversial article to satisfy my curiosity but don`t worry, regardless of my conclusion I promise I wont call anyone names.
And yes Leonard I hunt with a .17 & Airedales, why? Could you feel the presence of the "Darkside". (just playin`) ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ December 30, 2005, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: JD ]
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Jason
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What do Obama & TA17Rem have in common........both are clueless asshats!!!
Posts: 1456 | From: NE. | Registered: Dec 2005
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Randy Buker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 134
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posted December 30, 2005 06:32 PM
Gerald,
I agree with you. But, you know, it's funny. I've got my pride all fluffed up and every derogatory thing that is said about me or a friend and I just get more and more upset. And, when one doesn't respect someone who you feel is attacking you, it's easy to lash out.
If I were a bigger man, I'd let this go. I guess I'm just not that big of a man.
Randy
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Hunting the Red Fox
www.geocities.com/foxhunter_56308
Posts: 158 | From: Parkers Prairie, MN | Registered: Feb 2003
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted December 30, 2005 06:53 PM
I'm glad you took no offense Gerald, none was intended and there's no doubt that you have a better grasp on what the general public wants than I do. My personal feelings are still somewhere else. I never want to come off as a "pampass ass" even though I get to post at Leonards. I will agree on part of what you said, for me personally, I don't care for the splatter and blood and guts dragging, and I hope thats not what you think I personally want in a video. I want to see a coyote handled well and dispatched efficiently. I like videos and buy many, but I am probably not a major demographic. I still don't feel qualified to preach to the masses and my style of hunting with dogs isn't what I personally feel John Q Everybody should be doing, so that is probably part of why I don't care to offer any instruction. There are others that have preached that decoy dogs are for everybody, but in reality very few can give those type of dogs the work they need. Someday, I would like to do a straight calling video, no dogs, maybe with some instruction, but the market seems flooded to me right now and I think there are plenty of others out there right now that are well qualified to do just as they are doing. And there are plenty of unqualified having at it also. Like most here, I was hunting coyotes before this craze started and I'll probably be out in the brush somewhere hunting coyotes when it's over. I'm not planning a career in the video industy that is for sure, but I have enjoyed some of the filming we have done. It is fun for me to get some of the footage of the stuff I have have seen with coyotes and dogs, that most haven't seen. To guys like Scott, it's nothing new, but to many it is. I have a bunch of footage sitting on my computer shelf right now that is spectacular, but I don't know if it will ever get into video form or not, and I'm not too worried about it either way. Another major difference is that it is your business to sell products with your videos, and you are the grand old master that has seen this end of the deal for as long as you have been alive, and there is no doubt that you know your business well. I'm pretty green in that department and have nothing to sell! LOL!
I am however interested in your opinions of how the industry that you are in has changed in the last 20 years. You surely have seen changes that you both like and dislike.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
Posts: 1069 | From: Wyoming | Registered: May 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted December 30, 2005 07:16 PM
Man, I haven't had this much entertainment since the old days on the old Posse Country when Wiley and Dr.Ed had their disscussions.LOL
I do believe alot of what Wiley is trying to say though.I think we are getting alot of new guys to the sport that haven't learned all the in's and out's of Predator hunting by putting there time in with experience.They want to be the best RIGHT NOW. and it is hurting the sport as a whole.Guys that watch a video especially one by a not so experienced caller,then they go out and educate all the coyotes in a given area.LOL And for what? To grease someones pocket with some fast cash.There are lots of great informitive videos out there that HELP to make you a BETTER caller and I don't think Wiley is discrediting them.It's like he said "showboaters" just in it for the money that are the problem.
And like he said only YOU can decide which one you are.
But keep the comments coming,This beats watching CSI.LOL Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Gerald Stewart
Knows what it's all about
Member # 162
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posted December 30, 2005 07:38 PM
Cal, I have never gotten the impression that you would be other than you have stated. I wasn't trying to tag you with that, it just happened that you ended up in the same sentence as others that view those entertainment videos for different reasons.
I love watching what you do. I do not really have the opportunity to put any of what I would learn from your videos to good use because I simply do not have the time to train a dog or places to do it regularly. About the market being flooded, I wonder at times if many in this market are like the followers of Anima(Japanese cartoons). They can't seem to get enough of it. My son probably has several hundred of those episodes. Some guys have to have every hunting DVD that comes out. I think there will be ready market for DVDs for some time. The big companies crank a whole re-occurring series every year and have been doing it for some time. They would not be doing that if there was not anyone buying them.
As for "grand old master". Just how did you mean that? I am only 51. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
I am about 1\2 way through a powerpoint program on the history of Johnny Stewart Game Calls for the PM rendevous. It has really been a walk down memory lane as well as a good overview of how this industry evolved. It also has been very humbling in that I have relived a bunch of missteps I have made along the way. When I started reviewing how things turned out in my dealings with people who eventually became major competitors, I had a bunch of V8 moments where I realized in hind sight how foolish I was to not market something for them or provide something of ours for them to participate in this industry with.
I had the opportunity to make things turn out differently with the likes of Bill Delmonte (Bill Anderson Game calls), Dennis Kirk, John Dillion (Fox Pro) and several others who approached us at various times about working with them in some way.
Randy, that is one of the toughest things in the world to walk away from when you feel wronged in some way. I am living that myself right now having lost $200,000 trying to help a "friend" make a retirement for himself. Sometimes I wonder if the more I try to get others to know the truth if it doesn't start to reflect badly on me.
JD, go about 4 pages back in the predator hunting thread on PM and look for the "Misting" thread. I did not mean to insinuate that the PM thread was a flame war. This one takes the prize for that. Hey, someone bumped it up to page 1.
[ December 30, 2005, 08:05 PM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]
Posts: 419 | From: Waco,Tx | Registered: Mar 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 30, 2005 07:45 PM
There you go, Chad. Keep the proper perspective. This stuff is just cheap entertainment and a few chuckles. While some are wringing their hands; I'm glad you see the humor.
And, Cal! You sent up a few kernels of wisdom, dude. Or, stinging commentary, as you wish. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
And, I agree completely. Gerald has a unique perspective. As an insider, and a gentleman, he's well qualified to evaluate the direction the Sport and the Industry has taken, lo these many years.
You should do it, Gerald! A lot of folks would love to hear your side of the story. In any format.
Good hunting. LB
edit: we get some kind of flame war prize? hot dog!
[ December 30, 2005, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31459 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Gerald Stewart
Knows what it's all about
Member # 162
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posted December 30, 2005 07:54 PM
Hey UT caller, endulge me for a moment in a converstation so I can understand things better. I am not trying to challenge you on your words, I just want understand better what is the issue at hand. Give me your description of, or your interpretation of, a "showboater". You don't have to name names, just desrcibe better for me what you are referring to.
Additionally, in your best debators delivery explain why it is bad for someone to want to be the best they can be in the shortest amount of time. Do you prefer that guys go out there totally misinformed from the get go?
In my opinion that is the fastest way to educate coyotes. How do you learn all of the "In's" and "Outs" of calling if you do not start somewhere? Seems like watching DVD is a good place to start learning from. I believe experience is your best teacher but also believe that experience teaches a lot faster if it confirms or dispells something you have read or seen before experience kicks your butt or pats you on the back.
Say hey Leonard, maybe when I have time after this current project I will start a thread on the history of calling. It seems that in the past that subject has also been one of "me first" claims from you western guys and us easterners from Texas. That might be fun.
[ December 30, 2005, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]
Posts: 419 | From: Waco,Tx | Registered: Mar 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted December 30, 2005 08:36 PM
Gerald,I'm sorry. I guess I should have explained myself alittle better.I understand that with the information age comes both pro's and con's.When I started calling many years ago.The market was not flooded with information as it is today.I had the opportunity to learn from seasoned callers that had alot of experience.Along with some other more noteable veterans in the field of calling. Guys like Bill Austin,Ed Sceery,Yourself,and a few others were about it,back then.The information was SOUND and very helpful.Now fast forward to today.I AM IN NO WAY POINTING FINGERS AT ANYONE.There are so many video's with contradicting views from all types of callers,it would be very easy to be confused to which is the correct method of calling.And it's easy to say "test out all of the tactics and see which one fits best for YOU".But in the mean time when you have 10 times as many callers out there than say 5-10 years ago because they saw that "cool coyote calling DVD" and how easy it LOOKED to call and kill coyotes,it's easy to see why in some areas that used to produce alot of coyotes now produces few if any.I know I don't own exclusive rights to coyote calling,but it is frustrating none the less.What is the answer?Don't know.Just have to adapt to the changing times I guess..FWIW Good Hunting Chad
As far as "showboaters" go,I don't really have a DEFINITION for it, but I think Scott explained it very well.
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Q-Wagoner
FREE TRIAL MEMBERSHIP
Member # 33
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posted December 30, 2005 08:51 PM
First things first Randy. Do NOT send Krusty your video!!! The consequences would be devastating!! If he tried to shoot him self in the head I am sure he would F#%@ that up too. I am in no mood to listen to the whiney little bastur…. fella for the next 3 years. If Lance is a harelip, Byron is a Ho, Scott is a legend, Rich is a Doctor, and Vic is a God (formerly) we are all in good company. All this diversity begs the question “What the f@#$ is Krusty?”
I know quotes are sometimes annoying but I have a few thoughts on one in particular.
Leonard wrote….
quote:
There are many ways of gaining respect. Respect from some segments of the fraternity has more value than some others; such as the less informed newbie. Respect from the hardcore among us is more difficult and takes longer.
With all of the events that have transpired over the last couple of days I have had many of the same thoughts as Leonard. There are few rewards in predator hunting but gaining the respect of the most accomplished hunters in the field is about as high as the bar goes.
Now out of decency we always say we respect everyone and that may be true but that is not the kind of respect I am talking about. There is a kind of respect that is cherished far beyond a common mutual respect we all have for each other.
The respect I appreciate most happens at trapping and hunting conventions.
It feels good to get publicly recognized by some of the most accomplished guys out there. It also feels good to wade through a crowd of people huddled around Major Boddicker or John Graham or Vern Howey to see them stop what ever they are doing immediately. And with a smile and a handshake they address me by my first name and ask, “How are you doing Quinton? Good to see you again.” That followed up by a few minutes of catching up is priceless.
It is always humbling to have men like these whose accomplishments far exceed my own demonstrate that kind of respect. To me it is far better than a thousand leg humpers that are patronizing you for a pat on the head or a seat at the table. It is nice to be recognized for what you have done but there is certainly a value system for respect.
I think part of what irritates some of the old hands is that they see the commercialization of their way of life. They see videos with new faces and articles with new authors and are left wondering what the hell have they done to be qualified? What have they contributed?
Earlier I flipped open the November issue of the Trapper and looked at the inside cover of the last page. The header read “NEW VIDEOS 2005” I see names like Thorp, Plueger, Sterling, Graham and Pedersen. All of these men have walked the walk. They all have more than enough miles and numbers behind them to earn their peace of the pie. They have all donated time and money to organizations that preserve our heritage and privileges. More importantly they were doing all of this long before they had anything to sell.
Lets face it. There are guys out there making videos and writing articles that have accomplished nothing, have pioneered nothing and have contributed nothing in the world of predator calling, trapping and hunting outside of making a video or writing an article for money. I think they are looked upon to some extent as imposters that just “stepped in” when they saw a little money to be made and used other peoples hard earned knowledge as a springboard.
Fear not my friends! None of this is new in the business world. When the money runs out names will fade away like smoke in the wind. The same con artists that got under your skin will probably be off “prostituting” some other aspect of hunting or golf or what ever else they can offer there expert advice on. All being backed of course with there 20, 30 or 40 years experience and a money back guaranteeeeeeee . LOL
It will be only those with the real miles and the real accomplishments with the real background that will echo in our history and held in high esteem.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posts: 617 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted December 30, 2005 08:58 PM
Comparitively speaking only Gerald (the grand old master comment) You may be only 51 but I'm still going to call that 50 years experience in the calling industry. I don't know if anyone else that is currently successful in the business of selling calls and videos has been around it longer than that.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
Posts: 1069 | From: Wyoming | Registered: May 2003
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted December 30, 2005 09:42 PM
Q,
I have my self respect, I don't need yours.
I didn't whine about shit, the FACTS are my situation is pitiful (and some do pity me).
And just like Scott told Todd, you don't have to read what I write, if you don't like it.
Until you wanna come out here and show me how it's done, and ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO DO IT, then ...well, I'm sure you know what's comes next.
It's real easy for you, to drive around with your binoculars and rangefinder, and kill coyotes (sometimes) without ever tootin' on a call, but you'd get your ass handed to you here.
I guarantee it.
Yeah all this diversity does make me wonder, I'm not sure I'd put the same labels on everyone as you have, but I'd say I am a "trooper".
You've said it yourself, you'd quit if you were in my shoes.
I know, for sure, what I am not. I am not a quitter.
I am in plenty good company all by myself, are you?
I can already feel the short leash tightening, so before I overstep my limits, and tell you what I think you are... I'll just say "good night".
Krusty 
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 30, 2005 10:45 PM
You can actually FEEL that leash, K? I know you have to respond, kinda like Randy feels he has to respond. The funny part is that your name was mentioned, and Randy's was not.
I'm still trying to figure out why RB is so strenuously objecting to what Wiley said, since he has not named names, and it's still anybody's guess as to who (specifically) he has the problem with? He speaks in generalities, after all?
I tend to think that Scott is entitled to his opinion, and from here, it looks like Randy is saying that he doesn't like Scott's opinion; or that Scott shouldn't be entitled to voice his opinion? So, if Scott was/is trolling, it seems like he has accidentally snagged a "hook up" with 40 lb. test and can't shake him loose.
Cut the line, Scott; or reel him in!
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31459 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Q-Wagoner
FREE TRIAL MEMBERSHIP
Member # 33
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posted December 30, 2005 11:10 PM
Jesus Krusty I can’t sleep!!! PLEASE tell me what you think I am!!! Krusty I got to be honest with ya. You piss me off. I don’t know if it is that stupid little smiley face that always waves at me, or your chronic bitching? Listening to you whine all of the time is like fingernails being slowly raked over a chalkboard.
I know I know I don’t HAVE to read your posts but I can’t help it. It is like stumbling on to the Jerry Springer Show while channel surfing. It doesn’t matter that it is a total waste of time but you just got to watch. LOL
You said that some people do pity you but I simply can’t. I am sorry though about the traumatic head injury you suffered while rock climbing. But look at you now!! You have money!! I am happy you got your old job as a cart boy back at Wal Mart!! Before long they will promote you to greeter!!
The last thing I think I need to address is you not being a quitter. Now that is a good attitude to have but sometimes ya just got to throw in the towel. There has got to be something you can do? Knitting, bowling, hell you could problem even teach underwater fire prevention? There is a whole wide world of opportunity just waiting for you.
Now about your sig line krusty. They miss you man. Go home.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posts: 617 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted December 31, 2005 12:55 AM
I'm done with it. Randy's last post has nothing to respond to so I'll let him have the last word. When a post has reached the point of my mispelling someone's name being considered "name calling" the straws are about as thin as they're going to get. Anything further would just be a repeat of what has already been said and there's more than enough repitition already. I think I made my point and I have the satisfaction of knowing that I'm not alone in my concerns with the "fast buck artist". If everyone stops and thinks about the issue a little and tries to do the right thing, the rubber bullets and empty adjectives I absorb will be worth the effort.
This issue is really not just inexperience, it's not just bad information or misunderstanding and misapplying good information, it's not just disrespect, and it's not just showboating. It's all of these combined into one hyper money hungry "fast buck artist" that doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground BUT GAWD DOES HE LOVE THE CAMERA.
Contrary to popular belief, I didn't expect the walls to come tumbling down for some at the mention of my concern with prostitution of the sport. In hindsight I should have thrown a complete explanation out right from the start on a seperate thread not tied to coyote calling demographics. I didn't expect the reaction or the misinterpretation. I guess I forgot how fragile some egos really are. Another lesson in human behavior.
Carry on!
~SH~
[ December 31, 2005, 12:58 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Randy Buker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 134
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posted December 31, 2005 02:39 AM
Leonard,
In a previous post you asked me specifically what my beef was and I told you. You still don't get it?
Let me try throwing insinuations directed in the general direction of you and your friends and see how you respond. Seems like the old .17rem debate where if you don't use one, you aren't a real hunter, blah, blah blah.
I know Scott is your friend but you can certainly see my point after all of this???
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Hunting the Red Fox
www.geocities.com/foxhunter_56308
Posts: 158 | From: Parkers Prairie, MN | Registered: Feb 2003
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Randy Buker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 134
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posted December 31, 2005 03:33 AM
Scott, you just don't quit, do ya?
You wrote: When a post has reached the point of my mispelling someone's name being considered "name calling"...
Why in the world would you quote me that I had said anything about you "name calling" when I never said that.
Just another expample of your manipulating what I've said to throw your spin on it. Just another attempt to discredit me that didn't work.
What I said, and it's quoted exactly below is that you "called Byron numerous other names" as in names that are not his.
"Hell, just as an example of his disrepectful self, he called Byron numerous other names all the way though."
You'll all have to give me most of the day off. I have to go out and try to get a few coyotes on film today.
Later,
Randy
[ December 31, 2005, 03:35 AM: Message edited by: Randy Buker ]
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Hunting the Red Fox
www.geocities.com/foxhunter_56308
Posts: 158 | From: Parkers Prairie, MN | Registered: Feb 2003
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Gerald Stewart
Knows what it's all about
Member # 162
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posted December 31, 2005 05:28 AM
Thanks Chad, your response was effective for me and has turned the gears. What you and others may be feeling frustrated with, may be the result of the maturing of our market, sport or whatever you what to characterize it as. When the trapping market collapse came about back in the late 80's, a phenomenom occurred that propelled our sales to a point it would have been hard for Dad to believe.
What was the turf of Trappers, ADC agents and a small but managable group of sport hunters, in the course of 15 years has grown to the point we are at today. After a short 3 year post collapse decline, our company grew back to three times the size of its pre-collapse size in only 6 years.
Hunters from many other areas of the hunting fraternity finally began to see what Dad and others had known since way back in the earliest days. Predator calling is a great way to enjoy the outdoors, in many cases year round. Coyotes density and range expanded dramatically and they became known and a factor, almost everywhere.
The maturing process actually began after the good fur years of the late 70's early 80's. That is when we saw new competitors start to proliferate. Dennis Kirk in the east, Bill Anderson(Bill Delmonte's sounds)and United States Sporting Products(our sounds, Murry's caller) in the West. When the late 80s collapse of the fur market came about we bought the Delmonte line and Nite light eventually bought Dennis Kirk. We sued USSP out of exsistence. The early to mid 90s saw the introduction of the Buddy Caller, Fox Pro and the Lohman\Western Rivers rip off of our 512 Cassette caller.
The Lohman venture into the electronic predator calling niche was the first of the big boys who were watching the rapidly rising coyote market. Hunters Specialties wanted to be a major player and decided to grow by aquisition rather than by copying someone else. Primos has added Randy Anderson. I suspect they would be smart to stay out of the electronic end of the game for a while longer to see where it goes. They may eventually do what HS did by aquiring a smaller but rising company.
From Stage left....The Loudmouth, the Minaska, the Extreme Dimension, the Predation, the Preymaster and lord knows what else that is still on the drawing board. Throw in improvements and upgrades of existing units and you have a toxic mix of product and promotion that evidently is causing some....a problem with the good and bad effects....of a capitalistic, maturing market.
I say "bring it on" for the consumer. It can't be anything but good for them from the standpoint of increasingly better products and information about how to do what we have advocated all along. Where the rub comes is exactly what some on this thread are feeling discomfort with....when and where are all of the newbies going to be able to do what they are entitled to do....call and shoot coyotes.
I know exactly what is making you feel upset because I too long for the good ol days. Remember the glory days of Tennis or Track...Boxing or any number of other niches in our lives. They come and they go, rise and fall and yet somehow along the way we have all had the opportunity to continue participating directly or indirectly in those activities. Maybe not to the degree of the "glory" days but yet it is still there for us to participate in.
As for Byron, the Twins or anybody else who wants to jump in with a contribution of entertainment, teaching, or other calling related products...more power to them...come on in and swim with the sharks. Time will weed out the imposters, fakes, also rans or simply ineffective business people who try their hand at this game. Only the strong will survive.
I have seen that principle work many times and trust that it will continue to work.
Let me throw out one more morsel of thought for your consumption. Could this issue possibly be a microcosm for the Hunting industry itself. Will we see a more dramatic day when hunting itself grows to the point where there are too many participants, too few places or it is too expensive for the average Joe to be involved any longer. Depressing thought isn't it. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
[ December 31, 2005, 05:34 AM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]
Posts: 419 | From: Waco,Tx | Registered: Mar 2003
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varmit hunter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 37
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posted December 31, 2005 08:07 AM
Gerald. I don't think you could have summed up the state of this post and the state of the entire outdoor industry any better.
Well written sir.
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Make them pay for the wind.
Posts: 932 | From: Orange,TX | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted December 31, 2005 09:02 AM
Well I guess Randy's not done with it even when he's empty handed.
Randy, you honestly want to split the hair between "calling Byron other names" and "name calling"???
"Calling Byron other names" implies "name calling" not "mispelling Byron's name".
If your issue of contention was "mispelling Byron's name", that's what you should have said instead of "calling Byron other names".
That's what you are left holding at this point???? That's your definition of manipulation???? LOL!
Ahhhhh....ok? Whatever you say Randy!
Talk about desperate. That's funny! Why would you even sink your teeth into something so meaningless when "name calling" came from your bad or deceiving choice of words.
What a fragile ego!
You want to split the hair between "name calling" and "calling Byron other names" while you change complete sentences to back out of what you said:
First you said, "you feel everyone who responds is guilty" then when I called you on it, THAT STATEMENT SUDDENLY TRANSFORMS INTO "why do you keep INSINUATING that anyone who has responded to your post IN A DEFENSIVE MANNER feels guilty".
RB: "I said: "For some reason you feel everyone who responds is guilty." You said that's a bold faced lie. If that's not true, then why do you keep insinuating that anyone who has responded to your post in a defensive manner feels guilty????"
You said, "YOU FEEL EVERYONE WHO RESPONDS IS GUILTY", I never suggested such a thing so you change the meaning to become more accurate then accuse me of twisting words, damn hypocrite!
Want to make a fool of yourself defending that twist? Go ahead, you have the stage!
RB: "Playing games with someone's name like that just further shows your disrepect. Your saying you hadn't done it shows your dishonesty."
More deception. You're saying "calling Byron other names" instead of saying "mispelling Byron's name" was where the dishonesty lies.
Then you state that "you (Scott) aren't interested in helping people learn to kill more coyotes".
I see you conveniently diverted a feeble attempt at trying to defend that BOLD FACED LIE. At least you are that smart. Then lecture me on dishonesty??? What a hypocrite!
RB: "That choice would be that you've never written anything that I've seen that was new to me. Sorry, man. You aren't the only one with plenty of answers to the wiley ol' coyote."
Another dishonest statement. I never suggested I was the only one with plenty of answers to the Wiley Ol' coyote". To the contrary, I have given credit to many of the guys that I have learned from.
RB: "Tell me again that you don't lie or play games???"
Like I said Randy, talk is cheap! Your "supposed" lie has been addressed above.
RB: "I have got ask where in the world you assumed he was talking about you!?!?! He never mentioned your name at all."
Two can play at that game. Reading through this thread, a few words come to mind, "insecure, whiny, fragile supercharged ego, deceptive, liar, arrogant, desperate, inexperienced, yada, yada"
GOSH RANDY, WHY SO DEFENSIVE, I NEVER MENTIONED YOUR NAME DID I?
RB: "I've beaten this dead horse all I intend to. You may have the last word. Give it your best shot."
RB: "I've been around these boards too long to let this kind of thing get to me personally."
How many posts ago was that? You can't even be honest with yourself. You can't even drop it after I gave you the opportunity. You have to split the hair between "calling Byron other names" and "name calling". LOL! I'm sorry but that really is funny.
You're a dandy!
You think you can salvage something out of this post to save your sinking ship?
Here, I'll end this post with another of your outrageous statements:
RB: "I suppose that to give credit where credit is due, my next video will be two scenes of coyotes getting killed and 72.5 minutes of credits thanking everyone who ever taught me anything. Think it'll be a good seller????"
That's an amazing statement!
I can't think of how many Oscar or CMA awards shows I have watched and I've never seen credits take 72.5 minutes particularly with someone who claims they haven't learned anything from any of my posts.
You're something else Randy!
~SH~
[ December 31, 2005, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 31, 2005 09:27 AM
quote:
"Hell, just as an example of his disrepectful self, he called Byron numerous other names all the way though."
Randy, I'm old and slow and my memory isn't what it used to be. Can you show me specifically where Scott has called Byron a derogatory name? In this thread, somewhere? Specifically, where a reasonable man would assume that Scott is talking about Byron, while not actually using his name; such as "Byron is a jerk". That would violate my Board policy of not allowing personal attacks. It would take me (way) too long to go over the entire thread. If you could, point me in the right direct, I'd be grateful. Thanks.
Good hunting. LB
PS I've been asked to award special member status to everyone that has read every single post in this "train wreck". Hmmm? How could I do that?
edited for spelling. Please excuse
[ December 31, 2005, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31459 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Gerald Stewart
Knows what it's all about
Member # 162
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posted December 31, 2005 10:05 AM
Thanks Varmint Hunter, but you know...for some reason I sure am feeling like I would want Scott and Randy both on my side of the next arguement I start.
Posts: 419 | From: Waco,Tx | Registered: Mar 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 31, 2005 10:23 AM
Yeah. You are rght about that, Gerald. Both those guys are excellent masturbators, eh I mean superior debaters. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31459 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted December 31, 2005 10:52 AM
Gerald,
Very well said.I can see all of the points you made.As far as hunting as a whole,I think it has already headed in the direction you talked about.Big Money is the name of the game and us "average Joes" are just hanging around for the scraps.LOL
One thing is for sure though.With the many many new "wannabe callers" to the sport of predator hunting,it's made me a better caller,because I am constantally adapting and refining my calling to compensate for the pressure of the new "inexperienced" callers.
And Like MOST of the guys on here that have seasoned knowledge,I've become VERY tight lipped about the information I give out.Once Burned twice shy.LOL Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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