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Author Topic: Coyote calling demographics
JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228

Icon 1 posted December 31, 2005 11:01 AM      Profile for JoeF   Email JoeF         Edit/Delete Post 
From the very start of this thread I've had a currently popular monotonous 3 minute 30 second song - that plays every 30 seconds on the radio - running through my mind. It says something like," falling is easy, it's getting back up that becomes the problem, becomes the problem." That said in a grossly monotonous voice.

Somewhere in the middle of that monotony the song states that "you have become the problem, become the problem..." Kinda where we're at.

Being a bit of a music fan I know that there is a message within most popular songs. The sad part is that when the monotony (sp?) continues on to the point of saying that "you've solved the problem, solved the probbbblem" I've done tuned it out. Kinda like this thread.

Gerald made a brilliant and very tactful post up above a bit. Everybody ought to read it and then think about what they've posted - not what someone else put out. I'd like to hear the "then you've solved the problem, solved, the problem" part of the afore mentioned song on this thread.

I realize that that makes no sense unless you've heard that annoying tune. No skin off my back, I'll just revert to the Stones and "I can't get no....."

Posts: 646 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72

Icon 1 posted December 31, 2005 11:12 AM      Profile for Krustyklimber   Email Krustyklimber         Edit/Delete Post 
Leonard,

Yup, I can FEEL it. I'll never forget it's there.

Every time I post I have to check myself, and I never ever "let it all hang out" anymore.

I don't think I feel compelled, the same way Randy does, I am not defending myself.
To use Lance's analogy, even though I might get thrown right into the dirt, I still want my chance to "ride the bull".

Just like riding bulls as a kid, if I can, I laugh when I get up and brush myself off... and cowboy up, and get ready for my next turn.

I sucked at jr rodeo, and I never went on to ride the PBA, but I am damn proud of the fact that I never gave up.
Sometimes it hurt, and I cried, but I never walked away.

Q,

Sorry to ruin your night's sleep.

quote:
The respect I appreciate most happens at trapping and hunting conventions.

It feels good to get publicly recognized...

It also feels good to wade through a crowd of people huddled around Major Boddicker or John Graham or Vern Howey to see them stop what ever they are doing immediately... address me by my first name and ask, “How are you doing Quinton?...

That pretty much says it all, how you are, says a lot to me about what you are.

That you have your facts about me all wrong, and assume you know who I am because of that, also says a lot.

If I said (or more importantly TYPED) "it's raining again today" for 92 days in a row, and it had rained for the last 92 days in a row, is that whining? Or is that stating the facts?

92 days is the record here. [Wink] Just a fact.

I didn't fracture my skull rockclimbing, I was hit by a drunk driver, on my motorcycle.
It wasn't my fault, I left a one foot long skid mark, I had no time to even react.
I said "OH..." (didn't even get to say shit) and there was a big flash like in the cartoons!
The next thing I knew, the paramedic was backing away from me, with defibulator paddles in his hands "saying we got him back!".

The excessively large sum of money inherited, do to the death of a loved one, has nothing to do with my head injury, or my perfectly good job at the excavating company.
I'd give every fricken dime back in a heartbeat, but it don't work that way.
I understand that you work hard, just like I do, and I at least respect that about you.
That you can't find it in yourself to extend me that same courtesy, also says a lot.

If you wanna grab the bull by the horns, at least make sure you know which end the horns are on, huh? Get your facts straight.

In the few years I been kickin' around the hunting boards, I have learned to be a better person, and have improved my people skills a lot.
I think that says a lot about what I am. [Wink]

My sig line is from an inside joke, from when many of us used the chat. It's sorta about how I got here (on HM), and about how you "know it alls" need an idiot like me (so you can feel superior), who can take being the idiot without giving up.

The joke was... Leonard got Locohead for the court jester, and me, to be the village idiot.

When I am not around here anymore, I wonder if my village will miss me or not?

Krusty  -

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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!

Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209

Icon 1 posted December 31, 2005 12:16 PM      Profile for Tim Behle   Author's Homepage   Email Tim Behle         Edit/Delete Post 
Hey Krusty,

Do you like to swig tequela and dance in the smoke as much as Locohead does?

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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.

Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
varmit hunter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 37

Icon 1 posted December 31, 2005 12:28 PM      Profile for varmit hunter   Email varmit hunter         Edit/Delete Post 
I cant help but wonder. How long will it be before we see a Country Western singing star, or a NASCAR driver on a predator video". Well at least a worn out ball player.

Wow I can see the check inn's now. Laser light shows, Shiny metal flake 4 X 4's lining up.

Get ready ESPN were coming and in hot pursuit of BASS MASTERS.

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Make them pay for the wind.

Posts: 932 | From: Orange,TX | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted December 31, 2005 12:56 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
I just watched Mark Zepp's video. With all of the statements and charges within this thread, of course, I had that in mind as I watched. Forgive me Mark. We have never met, but suddenly I realized that I was looking at the predator hunting version of Home Shopping Network!

You have to watch it to know what I'm talkng about. Commercials and a rehash of every coyote video you have ever seen, with scores of friends. I just had to wonder if this is the sort of thing that Scott has in mind, or maybe it was ***** in his golf cart hunting with ****** *******? Just jerking your chain, *****. Don't get ornry!

Good hunting. LB

[ December 31, 2005, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31509 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8

Icon 1 posted December 31, 2005 01:26 PM      Profile for UTcaller   Email UTcaller         Edit/Delete Post 
Ya But Leonard,you got to see the Big man work the dogs. [Wink]
Posts: 1637 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228

Icon 1 posted December 31, 2005 01:29 PM      Profile for JoeF   Email JoeF         Edit/Delete Post 
I have an idea about videos... Don't buy them.

I've bought two and can give pretty favorable reviews. I'm done.

Posts: 646 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108

Icon 1 posted December 31, 2005 01:46 PM      Profile for Wiley E   Email Wiley E         Edit/Delete Post 
I have an idea about videos. If you are looking for an instructional video check out the credentials and experience of the "flavor of the month" video before buying. If you are looking for entertainment, they all have entertainment value. Randy Anderson knocked it out of the park for entertainment value. Merv Griswold showed the value of decoy dogs for summer time ADC work. Rookie callers tried it in the fall with young coyotes and wondered why the dogs run the coyotes out of the country. The why is just as important as the how.

The real good instructional videos are few and far between. Some even advocate calling with the wind, which will put you years behind in the normal habitat conditions of SD, ND, NE, MT, & WY.

~SH~

Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Randy Buker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 134

Icon 1 posted December 31, 2005 02:14 PM      Profile for Randy Buker   Author's Homepage   Email Randy Buker         Edit/Delete Post 
Leonard,

You wrote: "Randy, I'm old and slow and my memory isn't what it used to be. Can you show me specifically where Scott has called Byron a derogatory name? In this thread, somewhere? "

I know you are smarter than that and you just sent out a tidbit of bait to see if I'd bite.

My posts never said "derogatory" nor did it ever say "calling names." The idea that I had said that came from Scott. I said he was disrespectful of Byron by not calling him by the right name. It would be no different than if I addressed Scott by *Scat* or something and then said Oopps, I misspelled it. Go through Scott's posts, he actually spells quite well. I don't buy for a second that he didn't know how to spell B-Y-R-O-N. It's not too hard.

It's common courtesy to call someone by the right name and only shows respect, even for an adversary. I could even agree that he may have misspelled his name if he did it once or twice. But, several times and several different ways just doesn't fly as an excuse.

Scott,

Your last post was pretty dismal. I thought you had more spunk and smarts in ya. You got caught and you don't like it. Cry to someone else, your excuses aren't flying.

To respond to that garbage would be giving some credence to it. It doesn't deserve it so I'll pass. If you come up with something that's honest and not twisted, I'll be glad to continue this discourse.

[ December 31, 2005, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: Randy Buker ]

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Hunting the Red Fox

www.geocities.com/foxhunter_56308

Posts: 158 | From: Parkers Prairie, MN | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8

Icon 1 posted December 31, 2005 02:16 PM      Profile for UTcaller   Email UTcaller         Edit/Delete Post 
No Way Scott.I'm not even tempted.LOL
Posts: 1637 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rich Higgins
unknown comic


Icon 1 posted December 31, 2005 02:21 PM            Edit/Delete Post 
I was looking at the video selection at Sportsman's Warehouse today. They have a very, very large selection and range in price from $49.95 for 600 Nitro Express production videos $9 for lesser known predator videos. When I asked how they determine the price I was told that the purchaser is told the maximum amount the store will pay based on quality.
IP: Logged
Randy Buker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 134

Icon 1 posted December 31, 2005 02:22 PM      Profile for Randy Buker   Author's Homepage   Email Randy Buker         Edit/Delete Post 
Higgins,

How in the hell did you deal with this in the old days. I'm trying to find something to "fall in love" with Scott over and I'm having a hell of a time.

[Big Grin]

Rich, regarding price... I don't think that's true. Their job is not to decide which videos are quality. Their job is to carry videos that will sell the most. They pass on the poor once completely because they don't think they'll sell. They pass completely on the ones that for such a small niche that they don't think they will sell very many of.

[ December 31, 2005, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: Randy Buker ]

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Hunting the Red Fox

www.geocities.com/foxhunter_56308

Posts: 158 | From: Parkers Prairie, MN | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72

Icon 1 posted December 31, 2005 02:38 PM      Profile for Krustyklimber   Email Krustyklimber         Edit/Delete Post 
Oh I forgot a couple things...

Q,

You say if I tried to shoot myself "I'd F#%@ that up too".

You seem to inferr that I have done so in the past.
Can you name one time, coyote hunting or otherwise, that I F#%@ed up anything that was within my control?

I know of one time I totally did (and missed a coyote), but I'll take the 5th, I don't have to incriminate myself and say when it was.

I do have other interests, and I did say I'd pretty much thrown in the towel on calling coyotes close to home.
I'll keep workin' the clearcuts close to home, and I'll be even more suprised than the coyote, if I ever put a bullet in one around here.

I won't be suprised when I call in another bear, lion, or bobcat though. [Smile]

Speaking of other hobbies, I gotta get back to work on my duck boat, I want to go duck hunting (since it's raining) tomorrow. [Wink]

Tim,

In no way, shape, or form, am I up to Loco's job (anymore).
It is awesome to work with the best, we both do our jobs pretty well, if you ask me. [Big Grin]

Krusty  -

--------------------
Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!

Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
brad h
Knows what it's all about
Member # 57

Icon 1 posted December 31, 2005 02:56 PM      Profile for brad h   Email brad h         Edit/Delete Post 
Randy,
How and when is the price of the less expensive ones determined then?

Maybe some get deemed slow movers after some shelf time bringing the price down, but they don't all start out the same.

The shorter product promotional ones seem less expensive right off the bat in comparison to the 3-4 hour Randy Anderson videos.

Quality, length, and content would determine the initial price I would think.

Brad

Posts: 346 | From: Glendive MT | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Randy Buker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 134

Icon 1 posted December 31, 2005 03:06 PM      Profile for Randy Buker   Author's Homepage   Email Randy Buker         Edit/Delete Post 
Brad,

As I mentioned, they try to determine what will be good sellers. I suppose somewhere in there they have to go with some kind of "quality" issue. When I was marketing our video to the stores they were hesitant before they even saw them because night hunting isn't as popular as daytime hunting. They informed us up front that they'd be priced lower based on that fact and they hadn't even seen a copy yet.

Randy

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Hunting the Red Fox

www.geocities.com/foxhunter_56308

Posts: 158 | From: Parkers Prairie, MN | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7

Icon 1 posted December 31, 2005 03:43 PM      Profile for Cdog911   Author's Homepage   Email Cdog911         Edit/Delete Post 
In my own misguided attempt at having the last word on this train wreck, Leonard said:

quote:
Both those guys are excellent masturbators, eh I mean superior debaters
I think you were right the first time around. LOL Everyone just keeps doing their own thing in their own little corner, herkin' and jerkin', with their eye on the ultimate goal of dominatorical (new word!) superiority, with little regard to what anyone else is saying or doing, intent in gaining only their own personal satisfaction. In the end, when all is said and done, everyone will be sitting around, wasted and out of breath, knowing for a fact that they feel good about only themselves and they don't care if anyone else got "their's". [Smile]

Just an observation. I'll shut up now.

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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.

Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Q-Wagoner
FREE TRIAL MEMBERSHIP
Member # 33

Icon 1 posted December 31, 2005 05:12 PM      Profile for Q-Wagoner           Edit/Delete Post 
Now I don’t want to sound insensitive krusty but I’ll bet you a dollar you would F@#$ it up. So until you prove me wrong I will stick to my guns. BTW Masturbating will make you go blind. Drunk driver? [Roll Eyes] Sheesh But I guess with out a job, a girl friend and 92 consecutive days of rain; what else is a guy to do?

Honestly krusty, I had never heard you had bran damage. I just assumed. No hard feelings eh?

Good hunting

Q,

Posts: 617 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Gerald Stewart
Knows what it's all about
Member # 162

Icon 1 posted December 31, 2005 05:34 PM      Profile for Gerald Stewart           Edit/Delete Post 
Scott, I went up against a true "Fast Buck artist" in the early 90's. He pirated 15 of our sounds and was representing them as "good as Johnny Stewarts" in his national sales efforts. He was the epitome of a fast buck artist. In that legal battle I became aware of several other industries he had done the very same thing to. Everything from hardware products to Barbecue grills.

I do not consider someone who has to fund, produce and then market a DVD from scratch, a fast buck artist. I know the story behind several of these guys and simply can not support an arguement that they are anything but entreprenuers trying to capitalize on an opportunity that happens to deal with something they love and enjoy doing.

One of the TPP twins had come by my office years before his first effort at videos to talk coyotes. In a recent email, he reminded me of the moutchcall I gave him when we talked and he simply wanted to thank me for being willing to try and help him. I do not come close to feeling that he is taking credit for anything I may have suggested that day.

I had the opportunity to ride for thirty hours in my suburban with Byron to the HM campout and got to share quite a few stories back and forth. I think I know quite a bit about his background. I like running with good dogs and I consider Byron about as good as some of the best dogs I have ever hunted with. I trust he will not misinterpret that comment and you will understand the concept. [Smile]

I know Randy from our conversing on the phone and over the internet. I thought well enough of his experience and eagerness to ask him to be one of our testers for the failed BushWhacker project. I think I will send both of you a copy of Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People.

I know Mark Zepp and you won't find a nicer guy. I have met with and talked with Mark for years at our big trade shows. I know of his struggle to do the video. The time he took to shoot it and the concern he had for trying to make it informational as well as entertaining. If he deserves the title "Coyote Pimp" it is only because of that gaudy Pimp coat he wears on the video jacket picture. I wrag on him about that and he just smiles a big ol' teddy bear smile. I felt sorry for Mark upon reading Leonard's cruel words.

I like you a bunch Leonard but that was the second thing you have said that makes me want to give you a big spankin. I am not going to let you hide behind this Don Rickles approach to debate. He was caustic, cynical and acidic in his "humor". He would cut to the bone and then hide behind "I am only a comedian". I found myself using that kind of approach to humor in my marriage 30 years ago until I found out that under my wifes forced smiles was a deep hurt that was nothing but destructive. Don't take those words too hard Leonard, I will get over it eventually.

I am personally happy for all of these guys that they have been able to live out their dream and have made it into this market. I for one, am not afraid of them as competitors. I welcome new competitors...if they reveal themselves to be honest and possessing of some character. I have run into many that have not been of good character. Some that you probably have bought some product from. If I could wave a magic wand and replace all of the dishonest competitors we have dealt with over the years with the honest new ones,the turnover would be shocking to you.

I went back and re-read this whole thread again today and feel that things have gotten way out of hand to the detriment of some on both sides. I honestly feel that all of you guys would enjoy hunting with each other if given the opportunity. Of course, it would probably need to be under my supervision. [Smile]

P.S. I have hunted with Jay N. also... and he is Ok too. [Big Grin]

[ December 31, 2005, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]

Posts: 419 | From: Waco,Tx | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72

Icon 1 posted December 31, 2005 05:49 PM      Profile for Krustyklimber   Email Krustyklimber         Edit/Delete Post 
Q,

What else is a guy to do? Other than what? [Confused] Shoot myself in the head?

Learn to read, or write, or both, dude. [Roll Eyes]

I HAVE a good job, I have a really great girlfriend (same one for 22 years), and I don't mind that it once rained for 92 consecutive days.

Leonard said Scott and Randy were masturbators... is that what happened to your vision?
Mine is 20/20. [Smile]
But thanks for the warning.

My bran is fine, and so is MY brain... you better bring a lunch and flashlight if you wanna have a battle of wits with me, dipshit. [Big Grin]

Krusty  -

--------------------
Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!

Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted December 31, 2005 06:16 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Okay, Gerald. Not my finest moment.

But, a true expression of my feelings. Mark Zepp is probably a great person, but I have a problem with his approach. If I buy a video, I expect entertainment, or I expect knowledge, maybe a little of both? That's all I'm saying. I don't buy a product and expect to endure that many plugs and commercials. That's what it should say on the jacket. Not, 40 kills; there should be a disclaimer: : "Warning, 40 commercials"

That's my opinion, and, (I promise you) you are not big enough to spank me for expressing my opinion. [Smile]

Mark, if you are out there, I apologize for speaking my mind. [Smile] Please consider this constructive criticizm.

Good hunting. LB

--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31509 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7

Icon 1 posted December 31, 2005 06:22 PM      Profile for Cdog911   Author's Homepage   Email Cdog911         Edit/Delete Post 
I may just have to get to that next HM hunt since it appears that it's gonna be a big ol' fashioned ass whoopin'.

Gerald will be spankin' on Leonard while Leonard's whacking him with his crutch or his walker or whatever prothetic limb he might have at the time.

On the other side of the fire, Scott and Randy will be trying to talk each other to death.

While somewhere just beyond the glow of the campfire, it'll be the battle of the consonants: Q vs. K.

The rest of us will just be sitting around, drinking our beer, wrecking our necks switching from one dust up to the next trying not to miss a thing.

Let's set dates soon. A definite "must see". [Big Grin]

Oh, and Krusty, I don't think adding the " [Big Grin] " at the end did much to hide your true feelings. [Wink]

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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.

Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Todd Woodall
Knows what it's all about
Member # 439

Icon 1 posted December 31, 2005 06:44 PM      Profile for Todd Woodall   Author's Homepage   Email Todd Woodall         Edit/Delete Post 
Hey Gerald,

I always wanted a brother, and you gave me a twin!! [Razz] Thanks man, I will look at Jeff in a whole new light now. [Wink]

--------------------
Texas Predator Pursuit videos
110 hunts on 2 DVD's
www.texaspredatorpursuit.com

Posts: 181 | From: Weatherford Texas | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
JD
HONORARY OKIE .... and Tim's at fault!
Member # 768

Icon 1 posted December 31, 2005 06:56 PM      Profile for JD           Edit/Delete Post 
Now THAT`S funny Lance!!

Gerald, I`ve used JS products for some 18 years or so but that`s not why I like you, I don`t know if you`ve had a 100 coyote season to supposedly "earn" my respect, it wouldn`t matter much to me anyhow, but you ARE an honest man who wears his heart on his sleeve for the whole world to see & those are priceless qualities in a man. Reading your words always makes me stop & think a while.

[ December 31, 2005, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: JD ]

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Jason
--------------------------------------

What do Obama & TA17Rem have in common........both are clueless asshats!!!

Posts: 1456 | From: NE. | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted December 31, 2005 08:06 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
I forgot to ask what was my other offense, Gerald?

I will tell you this much. I have not said any where near what I would like to say on this whole subject, or express my true feelings. And, ( believe this if you want) it's because I try to be somewhat polite, while still being opinionated. Don Rickles? I'm like Don Rickles? (sob)

That hurts, Gerald. I'm a sensitive human being....calling a spade a spade.

Good hunting. LB

Happy New Year, everybody!

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31509 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Gerald Stewart
Knows what it's all about
Member # 162

Icon 7 posted December 31, 2005 08:11 PM      Profile for Gerald Stewart           Edit/Delete Post 
Leonard, I honestly do not remember the Ads. Has Mark done a second video? Could we be talkng about two different videos? I will have to dig it out and watch it again. I forgive you big guy. [Roll Eyes]

Lance, now thats a good one no matter who you are. Thanks for the laugh.

JD, thanks for the thought. If you are looking to me for a 100 dog year you are going to be looking for a long time. Dad nor I have ever come close to that. We were too busy making products and promoting a great way to enjoy the outdoors. I look to what a man has in his heart and mind to earn my respect. It is what comes from those two things that determine his actions and ultimately determine his accomplishments in life, good or bad.

I left this thread earlier and channel surfed across some Ultimate Fighting on the Spike network. I left it expecting an even bloodier mess on this thread but am pleased to read some great humor and engage in some civil conversation. That is a good way to end the day. I am going to bed. Good Night Grandpa...good night John Boy.

Posts: 419 | From: Waco,Tx | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged


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