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Topic: Andy....fill us in!
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted September 26, 2005 01:32 PM
Andy: I read on the darkside, you were down this way for a bar hunt,with a premier southwest guide/outfitter we all know:) Lets hear about it!
Did you ride the ridges hither and yon, trailing the dulcet tones of bawling or squealing hairdales? Tree anything? Kill anything..details man, details!
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
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posted September 26, 2005 04:34 PM
Vic,
Yeah, we went bear hunting. No kill this time. Did see alot of good country. I like those rugged mountains. Makes the Rockys where I used to elk hunt look like a golf course. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
We did have some races. We did have some excitement. I never got to see one in a tree. But we did have one ground bayed. Due to my being out of shape and a back that wont let me walk on level ground, let alone crawl up that stuff, I was holding the horses while Tommy and his brother went up for a look. Quick draw Teskey was at it again. He always seems to end up standing where a bear intends to run. Didnt get him this time though.
One other race in particular had great promise. Only problem was the bear went into some gnarly country that he and the dogs could cover ground quickly and a man on a horse could only crawl at a snails pace. Even Teskey, aka The Man From Snowy River, couldnt come close to keeping pace in that counrty. Rough stuff, thats for sure.
But, it was a different experience than this ole hillbilly has ever seen. Im glad I did it. We sure dont have stuff like that around here.
Thanks for askin though!!
Andy
[ September 26, 2005, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: Andy L ]
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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catskin
Knows what it's all about
Member # 51
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posted September 26, 2005 07:09 PM
As a typical novice in the act of riding horses (I always seem to end up on my back gasping for air to refill my lungs!) I can only imagine chasing dogs on horseback in that country and surviving to tell about it. I envy the experience you must have had riding that country chasin a bear.
Ken
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted September 26, 2005 07:37 PM
It was an experience. I havent rode a horse in several years, but grew up on one, like every day, til I was old enough to fight back, around age 22 or so. I grew up on a pretty big ranch, in Missouri standards. It was like riding a bike in that respect. I didnt have problems there.
My back did hamper me quite a bit. I had to take it easy and take some breaks. Those steel rods dont give much.
As for the country, you gotta do it to appreciate it. Tommy also made me a believer in barefoot horses. I know he has been pushing that alot and I was a little skeptical, although I knew there was something to it or he wouldnt be pushing it. I have had a horse fall with me on slick rock on more than one occaision. Once broke my right ankle in three places.
We put those horses in some of the gawd awfullest crap I have ever seen. I let Tommy go first the first day. My butt was puckered on several occaisions. But they surely got more grip, alot more, thats no doubt. And they were conditioned to where the jagged broken rock didnt hurt them either. I would have never thought of putting a shod horse in some of those places.
The third day, JD and I were on our own following the hounds. I had some more confidence then. That was JDs first day riding that country and he probably thought I was nuts at times, but he did really well and was up and running in no time flat. He did great and I think he enjoyed that part of it as well.
Yeah, it was quite the experience. I always wanted to do that. Honestly for me, a bear has never been that high on my list of "to kills". That would have been a bonus. The experience and the rides in those gawd forsaken mountains were a thrill.
Andy
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Andy
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Doggitter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 489
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posted September 26, 2005 09:14 PM
If I can add a bit to your comment on the barefooting Andy... I have noticed with my gelding that he's also safer to ride in the rocks barefoot because he is a bit more tender so he slows down and picks his way, making him more careful. Shod, he acts like like he's invinceable, and barrels through. Loren.
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted September 26, 2005 09:59 PM
I noticed that as well. I didnt see it as tender. I saw it more as being able to feel their feet and much more willing to take their time to place each foot. Not nearly as much prancing and stumbling.
And in the country we were in, a stumble could have ruined your day, week, year, life.....
There were a couple of places where if a shod horse made a bad choice and stumbled, you may not land for good for a good quarter mile or so.
Im sold on it. I know that. Dr. Tomas Teskey knows things. No doubt.
Andy
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Andy
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted September 26, 2005 10:09 PM
Yeah, the barefoot crowd is still on the fringe Andy, they buy it....most horseman don't. I took my gelding up lion hunting last year with Bruce, and failed to have him shod prior to going....bad mistake. Given the rough country, and condition of the footing, I lamed him up pretty good, ground his front feet down like you took a rasp to them.
Barefeet makes sense if it's just the animal carrying its own weight, but add 300 pounds of rider and tack, and there are different dynamics going on there. I'll continue to put steel on my horses feet thank you, and forego not hunting the next day becasue my pony is sore footed or worse, lame.
There are many products out now to give the shoes "grip" for anyone riding in slick rock, if thats a concern. Put that barefoot horse up in country that has that abrasive sandstone and long stretches of crumbling granite, and come morning, you'll be wearing out boot leather rather than riding that hayburner.
I alway figured, if the small contingent of the barefoot crowd was right.....how can so many millions that believe otherwise, be wrong? But, just like hunting, there are different factions that think "their" way is the best:)
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted September 26, 2005 10:56 PM
Maybe because it's cheaper?
Seems like them Apaches liked the appaloosa up in the 'cows because of their bigger feet and they had no means to shod their ponies; like three per rider.
But, seems like a lame mount is more trouble than he is worth? I don't like to trust my luck to a dumb horse with his head up his ass, under certain conditions, as described.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
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posted September 27, 2005 04:59 AM
Well, Im certainly no expert to be debating this, but I can tell you this. Failing to shoe your horse and riding him on a lion hunt with Bruce and him coming up lame is hardly an example of doing it properly. That was a bonehead, poor planned mistake, at best.
I talked to Tom at length, as I was impressed with it. I do know enough about horses and have enough common sense to know this. The horses feet have to be conditioned. You cant just forget to shoe them and take off through the 'cows, hell yes they will come back lame.
From the way I understand it, and what makes commmon sense is your horse needs to be trimmed correctly first. That means leaving the arch support in the foot, not flat like it would have been with just forgetting to shoe it. The foot would have no flex. You also would need to trim the edges around it to keep them from chipping and cracking. And the most important part would be to condition your horse first.
A young horse that has never been shod will do better than a 10 yr old that has always been shod. No doubt. But, with time and conditioning, the older foot can be brought back. I was talking with Tom about conditioning. We were riding across a pasture with mostly hard dirt and a few rocks. He said that was a prime example of where he would want his horses to run all the time, and ride in when conditioning a damaged foot from being shod. Then gradually riding them in rougher, rockier ground. And from what I understand, were not talking years here. More like weeks for a younger horse and months for older ones. Depending on how damaged the foot is. But sure as hell not leave the shoes off, foot flat, untrimmed and take off through the mountains. Thats nuts.
Vic, your a smart man. If you see one of them little kids runnin around that desert and up on the rocks barefoot at 10 yrs old. You reckon I can come down there and peel my shoes off and follow him around with my soft old white feet rigth off the bat? Hell no. Its the same principal.
Like I said, I hadnt been on a horse in years, but my family is made totally of ranchers, Im the first one out, maybe forever. And I grew up on horses. I was very impressed. I rode one of JHs horses hard. He was conditioned, nothing like Tom and Alans, you could still see the nail marks working out, but I could tell he had been working with him. I am a big boy myself and had a saddle bag and a backpack hangin off my horn and a big ass 500 SW hangin on my side. That horse never showed sign of lame during the week. Toms horses that they use on the ranch everyday hadnt been shod in years. Those were a fine pair of mares btw. And those mares are rode in that terrain on a daily basis. Seems like they would come up lame, no? We put those horses in places Im positive we would have had the ass under the horse on, if it stayed on its feet, with steel on. I wouldnt know of any of the new materials. When I ran from the ranch life, there was only one shoe material, steel.
Yeah Vic, they are on the fringe. But I really think its a fringe that is going to grow big. There are alot of thick skulls, such as yours, to be penetrated first. I say that because of your own comment. That made no sense at all, which really surprised me coming from a man of your intelligence. You forgot to shoe your horse and took him on a lion hunt and he came up lame. Thats not working a horse to be ridden barefoot my friend. That is utter Bravo Sierra. And a very irresponsible comment.
Andy
I forgot, Leonard, its not the price, but the horses health. Lets try the common sense thing again. As you get older, do your ankle and knee and hip joints get to aching more and more from abuse? How do you think that would have been if you wore steel shoes all your life?
As I said, Im no expert, but from what I saw firsthand and asked questions and absorbed, it made perfect sense to me. A horse is going to have far less problems with a cushion than with steel feet.
I dont know how much you have rode a horse, but I could damn sure tell the difference in the way the horses handled the terrain. They could actually feel their feet, the way they were intended to and placed them properly and there was no tripping or sliding. Not like a shod horse that tends to, as Loren said, plow on through and stumble and slip all over.
Im not up on this enough to debate much further. Ill see if I cant get ahold the Tom and get him to come on for a while. If your willing to open your ears and listen, you may just learn something.....
[ September 27, 2005, 05:14 AM: Message edited by: Andy L ]
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Andy
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted September 27, 2005 07:32 AM
This is a subject that has perplexed me for years. The horse was domesticated several thousands of years ago, yet metal shoes are a relatively recent innovation. Cavalry played a leading role war from the time of the Sumerians. It would seem that the professional military minds would stay on the cutting edge of practicality and efficiency. Yet the U.S. Cavalry considered the Comanches to be the finest lght cavalry in the world. The Nez Perce were masters of horse husbandry, developing the Appaloosa, which was one of the most prized breeds of the time. None of the ****** tribes shod their horses and reportedly were able to get more mileage from their barefeet than whites could from their shod horses.
I still don't understand.
Keeping a horse well shod is a constant and expensive chore and I can add silly to the list if it actually isn't neccessary.
I still don't understand.
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted September 27, 2005 07:38 AM
It's a great theory Andy, but for most folks it will never work and never catch on. I agree that horses that are raised in the rocks and "conditioned" to it have tougher feet. I also grew up on a ranch and it was a dirty tough rocky S.O.B. and my dad never shod nothing. But... We also had 80 to 100 head of saddle horses, so when one limped a little he got kicked out to heal up and you had plenty of others to ride. But for most folks in todays world it will never work, and I'm a prime example. My horse pasture is right here at the house, and there isn't hardly a rock in it, and most peoples horse pastures and stalls are that way, so if I were to want to take off Elk hunting tommorrow would I dare not shoe my horses? If I didn't shoe them, I'd cripple them in a day. There's not a doubt. And the vast majority are the same as me. I don't have rough stuff in my back yard to get them used to the rocks and I sure don't have the time to haul them to the mountains every week. I will point out that I hate having my horses shod, and I do it as sparingly as possible. I shoe my own, so cost isn't the objective, and I agree with many of the theories of not shoeing and keeping a big healthy foot on my horses, and thats fine in the flats and roping arenas I go to, but if I were to have to head to the rocks tommorrow, my horses aren't used to it and I would have to slap some iron on them or risk bruising one. I think that the vast majority of people are the same as me, and so that is why not shoeing in rough country will never work in most cases. If the horses are raised right there and always out in it, they will be conditioned to it. But that isn't the case for the majority.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted September 27, 2005 07:45 AM
Same thing for you Rich,
If one limped around the ******* , they ate him and rode a different one. Shoeing became a necessary evil due to the way most people keep their horses. In a stall or small pen, and their feet get soft. And it all depended on how much you were willing to invest in horses. If you only have one, and he limps, you are screwed. If you have 20 and one limps, you just saddle something else. By the way, do you know why the Appalosa was so prized by the native americans?
1. It was the only type of horse that they could catch, while they were afoot.
2. If you rode an App you were damn sure mad and ready to kill someone by the time you got to the battle.
[ September 27, 2005, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: Cal Taylor ]
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted September 27, 2005 07:58 AM
LOL
I owned an Appy for a time, pretty thing, perfect blanket. Have to admit, she was a real hammerhead.
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted September 27, 2005 09:25 AM
How often or what are the actual chances of having one slip or slide off the edge?
Quite a few years ago, I was on a packin elk hunt in ID and that really made me wonder. Ahead of me, I was watching the outfitters horse slipping and sliding on a narrow rocky trail over one hell of a drop off. I "casually" mentioned to the outfitter that it might be a hell of alot safer to dismount and walk the horses. He just looked back at me and smiled and said, "Hell Boy, just hang on. That horse doesn't want to fall any more than you do.!" That made me feel much better. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Dennis
[ September 27, 2005, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: Greenside ]
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted September 27, 2005 10:13 AM
LOL Cal,
I was just getting ready to say the same thing about catching and ridin appys for the ******* . Thats a good old joke....
I dont claim to be an expert in the unshod field. I do however claim to have alot of respect for the man that explained it to me and saw first hand how it worked for us. I was impressed.
You said something there that is exactly right. The conditioning and being on the terrain all the time makes all the difference, the way I understand it.
That was the first time I had ever rode a barefoot horse, other than a rank colt that we wanted sored up. But, we never thought of not shoeign a horse. Thats just what you did. This really intrests me. I wish to hell I would have known this many moons ago. I would have tried it when I had the horses and acerage available if nothing else to save myself some back breaking work of puttin shoes on the damned things.
I got a call in. Im anxious to hear how this all comes together, if I can get the man with the plan on here.
Andy
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Andy
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted September 27, 2005 07:38 PM
Yeah, I may be thick skulled, but it seems as though yours is paper thin my friend:)
And, as a point of fact, I should have described the hunt, it was not riding cross country thru the Chirichauas, if thats what you meant by the "cows", never heard of them before?
I was in the Galuro mts, and rode only the two track road, for some miles, but never any thru hill and dale, kind of shit.
Conditioning is a good part of it,if they live in rough stuff, indeed the foot and hoof wall will toughen up. Proper trimming is necessary in shod horses to, not just for the barefoot crowd. If the navicular joints and coffin bone aren't in proper set,and the frog able to contact the ground, as well as the horse being able to set its foot down heel first, even a shod horse can lame up.
I would imagine you could ask any reputable big game outfitter, that uses horses or mules to chase bear or lion, and you'll be hard pressed to come up with one that thinks barefootin' is the way to go. As Cal implied, most cattleman shoe their stock also, Im sure there are some that follow the barefoot crowd, but not many I bet?
It's an interesting concept I suppose, if that kind of thing stimulates your interest. There is a strong contingent that loves to bandy about the "natural" horse concept. My opinion is nothing we do with a horse is natural to them. Just about every movement we require them to perform, is far from natural for them. Movements like backing up, changing leads,bending at the poll for proper head set,lateral flexion for softness,side passing,holding a bit in their mouth, having a saddle on their back, facing up to objects they would normally run from....none of it is "natural" for the horse. Horses are prey animals, big, goofy, herbivores, that naturally want to graze,sleep and be lazy.
To long a post, and I apologize, but hey, Im thick headed,and full of bravo sierra:)
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted September 27, 2005 08:25 PM
That big galoot down in McNeal always says: "the 'cows", Vic. How come you don't know that?
I don't know about these retro ideas, though? How can so many people been doing something wrong for so long?
I used to work with someone that kept a mare in a stable down by the riverbed. Barefoot. Mostly on sand, but still needed routine blacksmith service on her hooves.
I still say, if a trail is bare rock and slippery, I'm going to dismount and lead that nag across. They may not want to fall any more than I do, but I have seen a few that do not seem to have a clue as to how far is down.
Man, you guys should have watched Higgins work with Bruce's horse, last year! Three other men couldn't get him in the damned trailer, but Rich did. Impressive.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted September 27, 2005 09:50 PM
Some interesting, and an opposing view to the barefoot clique:
http://web.cetlink.net/~farrier/fads.htm
Posts: 1630 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Jack Roberts
Knows what it's all about
Member # 13
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posted September 27, 2005 10:30 PM
This horse stuff is way too complicated for me. I would not trade one dirt bike for a hundred horses.
Jack
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catskin
Knows what it's all about
Member # 51
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posted September 27, 2005 10:50 PM
and here's a supporting view, so what?
http://www.barefoothorse.com/
It's starting to sound like the 17 centerfires verses the 25-06 crowd isn't it.
I'm with Jack here, I've yet to have a bike or sled go out of it's way to wipe me off on a pondorosa.
[ September 27, 2005, 10:53 PM: Message edited by: catskin ]
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted September 27, 2005 11:14 PM
You mean I just wasted an hour on that stuff, including the revenge of the cult?
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted September 28, 2005 06:00 AM
Drag up all the blogs and think what you want Victor. Truth is, you have never tried it, your pissed off at someone that has and you dont have a clue what your talking about. For god sakes, you took a barefoot horse, that you forgot to shoe, lion hunting. That outta tell ya something. LOL.
Yeah, I called em 'cows. Probably because I didnt feel like looking up how to spell the correct name. No different than some of the goofy bastards that say "yote" because they are too lazy to look up how to spell "coyote".
Something else about this strikes me funny Vic. You and I have had some arguments in the past, imagine that. In the past, I was the the one that was stating written facts and opinions, and you were the one saying I was full of BS because I had no real world experience. Remember that? Funny how things change. You have never tried it, its obvious been around it even less than I have, yet your quite the expert on it. I challenge you to take a ride with Tomas and listen to him for a day, or even a half day. If he will have you. Then maybe, just maybe, you might get a little real world experience, to couple with your intelligence and you can make an informed decision. Not one formed out of BS and hatred.
Im not going to even touch the natural movement thing. Thats a whole other can of worms and you or I either one know enough to make informed posts without taking a crash course from a google blog of choice, kinda like you did before your last post.
As for outfitters and cattlemen, the way they do things now, its not practical. Cal hit it on the head. The horse has to be conditioned. Period. And that takes alot more time and different settings for the animal than stalls and lots. And unless they are willing to change their practices, at least a bit, and put some effort forth, it wont work. But, with some education and small changes it could. Im sure you couldnt have talked a "reputable" outfitter into letting you ride your horse that you forgot to shoe on the lion hunt. Im sure a "reputable" outfitter would have seen to it that you had another mount ready. Am I not right? I know, I know, he wasnt outfitting you, surely not, but since it was his gig, it would seem that he would have made sure that a good friend such as yourself would have been mounted properly, wouldnt he? I sure has hell wouldnt send one of my friends that I invited to hunt with me out on a four wheeler with one flat or four bald tires, even if he brought it.
I just get a kick out of some of this stuff. Some people in particular could say that ketchup is good. And a good portion of other people would make a stand and write page after page of how awful and stupid it is to use ketchup (better check Vic, I think there may be more than one spelling for it and you might have some more grounds here). And it would have nothing to do with ketchup. It only has to do with people that refuse to have common ground with people that they deeply hate. And they definitly refuse to listen to anything that may be a little different, or for god sakes try it, if the other camp thought of it. Its ignorance is what it is. Sounds alot like Capitol Hill.
This thread started as a smart ass remark from you Vic. You were hoping I would come back with alot of negative things to say. Dont say you werent. Instead, I had some postive things to say about the good time I had and something that really intrigued me, because it was totally opposite of anything I had ever seen and surely opposite of how I was raised. Since you couldnt get the ammo you wanted, you had to fire off on something. Maybe a little frustration there Vic?
Like I said, if you got the willingness to let some light in that bonehead of yours, and IF Tomas would have you, I would be willing to bet, whether you would be willing to admit it or not (seems like you have a hard time with not being right), you may actually have a different view of it. But, for some reason, that whole area down there is such a "Peyton Place", who the hell know what the relationship is between you and Tomas is. He may be a part of the Ketchup Party, god wouldnt that be awful.
Its a sad thing. There is no secret that there are two boards here that both have good qualities. Over different incidents and things that have happened in the past, people from one board are unwilling to accept people from the other board, or their views. They may try to make it look like they are accepting, but they arent. Thats what this whole thread boils down to. And the even sadder part of it is, that alot of the people werent even around and sure didnt have any stake in what formed the hatred. But, they are guilty by association. And Im not just saying that is one way. Its a two way street no doubt. There are very few, very few people that have successfully been able to bridge that gap and be both places. Its next to impossible. That truely is sad.
Anyway, this thread started off as a smart ass remark to try and start some crap about someone else. Now its turned to a horse arguement because I refused to play your game Vic. Funny thing is, neither of us are absolutely qualified to argue either way. I admitted that early on. You still havent. You continue to use practices of the masses for your basis. Not even a hint of real world. Sound familiar Vic? (hint, hmr) ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Whats next?
Andy
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Andy
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Jay Nistetter
Legalize Weed, Free the Dixie Chicks
Member # 140
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posted September 28, 2005 06:29 AM
Is there a Cliff Note version of this thread?
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Understanding the coyote is not as important as knowing where they are.
I usually let the fur prime up before I leave 'em lay.
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted September 28, 2005 06:40 AM
What are you trying to say Jay? Go ahead, you dont have to be coy....
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Andy
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bucksnort
Miss Chris from AZ
Member # 202
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posted September 28, 2005 07:48 AM
Leonard, you are dead on right about Rich Higgins and his handling of that horse. I for one am dang glad he was there, or we would still be eating on that horse.
Those ******* ran barefoot horses, because they didn't have shoes........simple as that.
If you don't want your horses slipping on the rocks, put "Drill Tech" on the shoes, and that is like putting them in 4 wheel drive...........no more slipping.
Take care.
Bruce A. Kennedy
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"There are lion chasers, lion catchers, and lying SOB's."
"Warriors of El Gato - The Lion"
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