quote:

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A lot of this is also due to the prostitution of coyote calling on videos and CDs.

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What about the internet with sites like this, PM, CG, etc?

Alot of beginners running around the net. And it's free, no $$$ for DVD's.

later,
scruffy
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on December 27, 2005, 09:35 AM:
 
Well if it isn't Wiley E.Where the hell you been hiding.LOL Great to have you back on the HM.
 

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Posted by Bill (Member # 49) on December 27, 2005, 09:57 AM:
 
Here in Tucson the first of the big out door retailers open up, the Sportsman’s Warehouse. During the opening they drew in a huge number of local sportsmen to the store. The shelves were over stocked with everything including all things related to predator calling. They had a huge selection of mouth calls and wide selection of electronic calls. It was interesting to talk with or listen to guys considering what to buy, how the product worked, even where to go. There seemed to be a lot of guys that have an interest in calling but had little knowledge of the sport. Since the learning curve can be very steep for many new callers I’m thinking they will soon lose interest and find something easier to succeed at. In the past I have not ran into other caller in the field except for a very few times. But who knows, that may change.

Bill
 

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Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on December 27, 2005, 11:20 AM:
 
Welcome back Wiley E. You have always answered my questions in full when you see them so I will do my best here.

I see more and more guys that appear to be calling every year. However, I see few making stands. I think that there are more guys that are giving it a try and making 2 or three stands on an outing and road hunting the rest of the day. That is what I did before someone called one up for me and instilled confidence in what I was doing. I doubt many of these guys are out every chance they get and might go on 3 or 4 hunts after the big game seasons end. I don’t recognize vehicles so I guess new faces each time.???

Fur prices I think have little to no effect on new comers. I think most feel like they are doing ADC work to help ranchers or the game animals that they would rather pursue in the area.

On the howling end of it, I think more and more are trying it myself included, but I don’t do it on every stand, kind of a situational thing. Personally I’m afraid of sounding too big or aggressive. I can only assume that others have the same fears and might stick with what has worked for them in the past.

The standard Wiley E. type disclaimer applies.
 

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Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on December 27, 2005, 01:58 PM:
 
Hello SH, long time no hear. Interesting choice of words. “Prostituting the sport” that is. LOL Everything else hunting related has went commercial, you knew it would only be a matter of time.

Good hunting.

Q,
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 27, 2005, 02:18 PM:
 
Yeah, Scott.
What do you mean by: "prostituting the sport"?

Good hunting. Madame Leonard
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 27, 2005, 02:34 PM:
 
Wiley,
It is good to hear from you. I don't get out calling nearly as much as I once did. In my own stomping grounds, there are a lot more deer and turkey hunters than there ever was before. There are also a lot of guys who chase coyotes with pickup trucks and C.B. radio's, but not very many callers. Looking at the big picture however,I have to agree that the number of new callers are on the increase. Iowa coyotes see a lot of pressure from hunters, and this makes for spooky coyotes. Calling out in the more open farm country during mid-day is futile.

There are some willing coyotes to be found back in those loess hills, where it is too steep to farm. Even up there in the brush, the coyotes circle down-wind more than they once did. I still use coyote vocalizations, but I use them sparingly and I use them more during denning and breeding season than I do in early fall. Murry Burnham once told me that coyotes teach their young. I have come to believe him.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 27, 2005, 03:27 PM:
 
Scott,

Good to see you back and hope to shake your hand in St. Francis.

Here in Kansas, I'm seeing more and more guys getting into calling coyotes. Just this week, I've had three different guys hit me up to teach them "a few tricks". I show them the vanilla, Johnny Stewart cottontail in distress routine and let them learn from trial and screw up just like I did. Tell them where to subscribe to T&PC and go from there. LOL

The reason I think a lot of guys around here are turning to calling hasn't been mentioned here yet, so I'll throw it into the fray. Kansas has been beseiged by deer hunting guides and lease hunting and a large proportion of middle class sportsmen have been bumped out of deer hunting by wealthier non-residents that can afford to pay the asking price. In their search to get a "fix" for their hunting addiction, they turn to one critter that the landowners still seem to hold in a high degree of contempt - coyotes.

Like many places, they try it a couple times, fail, and look for something else to keep them busy. I hope.

As far as more guys using vocalizations, I don't, as a rule, demo howling for beginners and tell them up front that I won't. God knows I get hit up for it, but I make it clear that it demands a better understanding of calling then they possess and that they'd be better off just mastering the basics at first.
 

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Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on December 27, 2005, 03:48 PM:
 
Wiley E,

Prostitute? So am I a pimp or a whore?

My thoughts are that there are more callers than before but most won't do what it takes to become proficient and will get frustrated then quit, only to be replaced by others that will do the same. The learning curve is way steeper than most are willing to go through. There will be a few however, that will be persistent and will catch the bug.

I also don't think that there are to many callers out. Sure there may be a lot more but it is a long way from to many. I feel that 90% aren't willing to do what it takes to do much damage and are pretty much a non-issue. Those that are devout and eager will learn to be more proficient. Not much we can do about that.

At one time I was a new caller. I studied every article and hung on every word any body spoke pertaining to coyotes or calling. I was a sponge for any tidbit of information I could get my hands on. The difference with me, and the others I hung around with is that I had the fortitude and desire to apply the information I was receiving. It was not a hobby for me but a way of life. Everything I did revolved about me getting more time in the woods. Not many have this today but there are a few. CD's, DVD's and the Internet are just sources of information. Without a little gumption this information is useless. If I would of had something like the internet or DVD's when I was young I have no doubt it would have used it to gain knowledge for my passion.

Skip forward a few years. I'm not a new caller any more but still have a passion for it. I also enjoy sharing the things I've learned with others, especially guys that were in the same boat as I was thirty years ago. It takes an enormous amount of effort to produce a video or keep a internet forum up and running to share this knowledge. This is why I take a little offence to the negative connotation of the words you chose to describe what I do. Sure I make a little money off what I do but it is all done in a very respectful way and well worth the price I'm asking. Most are also quiet glad I took the time to produce such a product that was instrumental in getting them through the learning curve maybe a little faster. When it all boils down though they still have to get off the couch to get it done. To those that do get off the couch, I wish all the luck.

Information is a wonderful thing but useless if not put in action.

I'm a big boy and pretty thick skinned. I'm not pissed in the least, just think your choice of words was a poor. Your not alone in your seemingly, bitter assessment of others that would somehow like to enjoy and learn the art of calling critters and those that are willing to help them. I'm aware that your intentions may have been different that you conveyed in your written words. If I have misunderstood your intentions, I apologize. (Been doing that a lot lately.)

Byron (the pimp) South

[ December 27, 2005, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Byron South ]
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 27, 2005, 04:01 PM:
 
And now, time to pause for a short side track...

Just remember, Byron, "Pimpin' ain't easy!"
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on December 27, 2005, 04:54 PM:
 
Hey Leonard; Can we all be 'Coyote Pimp' members for a day, or would that be pushing it??

I'm seeing more & more sign of increased calling in my areas. Scouting, test calling in areas that produce good results in mid-Oct. often produce only warning barks & howls by late Nov. when the fur is fully prime.
 

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Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on December 27, 2005, 05:36 PM:
 
We're both pimps Byron, but so is Scott. We have figured out a way to make some or all of our income by killing stuff. There are several other pimps here too. Don't get your feelings hurt, be happy you're doing what you're doing and having some success. I have caught some grief from a few guys over making another video with dogs, but they make thier living killing coyotes or selling stuff to kill coyotes also, so I see no difference. As for callers here, it's about the same as always. A few new guys and plenty of two or three times a year guys, but not many die hards. Seems to be plenty or coyotes around. They may be a touch wiser than a few years ago, but then so am I! LOL!
 

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Posted by Baldknobber (Member # 514) on December 27, 2005, 05:36 PM:
 
Unlike some ot the newcomers that started the same time that I did, I have stuck with it and my coyote take has increased dramatically. Last year was my first year and I went all winter and only took a total of 4 coyotes. As of right now I have taken 11 so far. The difference is that this website with its experienced contributors and the people who produce the top quality videos such as Byron and Gerald Stewart have helped me to pay attention and to do things right. Without them I would just be out there educating coyotes and running the back roads searching for a wandering coyote to shoot at. I have been serious about my quest for information and my hat is off to the guys who produce the GOOD videos. Thanks guys.
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on December 27, 2005, 05:50 PM:
 
Leonard: "What do you mean by: "prostituting the sport"?"

It's self explanatory Leonard.

Prostitute: A person who degrades his talents for money.

Bob tells Joe how to call coyotes. Joe makes a video selling Bob's techniques for money. Happens all the time. Prostitution!

If that choice of words offended someone, there must be a reason. I'm not talking about selling a product through a video such as Gerald Stewart does, I'm talking about those who sell other's hard word and knowledge for their own financial gain.

Gee, didn't take me long to press buttons did it? LOL!

Thanks for the responses.

~SH~

[ December 27, 2005, 05:53 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 27, 2005, 06:09 PM:
 

quote:

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2. Exposure to coyote calling information via video and CD (prostitution of the sport).

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You've got my attention...

You tied that allegation to the video and CD medium in your original post, so how 'bout we cut to the chase and you be more specific. It's on the table so we might as well not dance around it.

[ December 27, 2005, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
 

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Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on December 27, 2005, 07:56 PM:
 
Wiley E,

You did, admittedly, strike a nerve with me with your blanket statement, but I'm not feeling defensive at all. Just puzzled. Who is Bob and Joe?

" A lot of this is also due to the prostitution of coyote calling on videos and CDs."

I was not aware that someone had a monopoly on disseminating this kind of information. Does the initial person that has an original thought have sole rights to that thought? Not sure if you've ever even seem my videos and we have certainly not met or hunted together, but what I've put on my videos are the tactics that I use. Most of which were learned by hard knocks and trial and error. Some were even learned from others. My feelings are not hurt in the least. In fact I find it both comical as well as sad that someone would have such a view. By your own definition I would love for you to demonstrate how I or any other video maker has prostituted themselves.

Why did you leave out the magazine writers that do much the same thing for profit? Are they prositutes as well? (Sorry Lance) (Dang I got to quit apologizing)

Why would Gerald be excluded? Did I miss something? Isn't he whoring himself out to HS by your definition? (sorry Gerald)(You see, I did it again )

Since I can remember I have always wanted to be able to make a living doing what I love. I'm not there yet but getting very close. I have not stepped on anyones toes in doing so either. I've worked long and hard to get to where I'm at in life. I can honestly say I've never prosituted myself or dignity in doing so. I'm used to having jabs thrown at me (I was a skinny kid). Just, it has never been in my nature not to throw a few back.

I don't wish to waste my time debating the issue as it will not accomplish much. I've spent way more time on this dang computer in the last few days than I should have. I have to round up a shooter or camera man for in the morning.

Cal,

My feelings ain't hurt. Just never quiet thought of myself as a pimp. . I was just wondering how someone could come to such a conclusion.

Baldknobber,

Thanks for purchasing my videos. Glad you enjoyed them.

Good night

Byron
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 27, 2005, 09:26 PM:
 
Byron, this is Scott Huber you are talking about.

Somebody brief Byron about Scott. He's a legend. And, a very good friend.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on December 27, 2005, 10:11 PM:
 
Scott you must have been reading my mind with parts of you're post. Especially with the " Bob tells Joe" part.

I received a E-Mail today from a good friend. The heading had the word WARNING written fifteen times followed by take you're blood pressure medicine before going to this web site. I clicked on the website to see a new calling hero with many years of studding Coyote vocalizations had started producing his own calls. My wife drove to this mans house less than a year ago. I gave him a prototype of the "She Howler" and "Ky-Yoter I developed for Lohman. A company I have been under contract with for nearly twenty years. I showed him how to use them. Damn I must be a good teacher. Now he is another one of our up and coming stars. By this time next year he will have thirty years experience. That seems to be the magic number for guys who are barely forty.

Another star called me just a few years back asking for legal advice as to what to do with his new video. Not having any legal knowledge I called Lohman's legal department to help him out. Explaining this was a young man I wonted to help out, and not see his hard work get ripped off. When my boss found out what I had done it nearly cost me my job. I also gave him advice on giving seminars. Now I see my advice given out as his own words, and he his proclaimed a genius. To add insult to injure I call to order his video, and am immediately asked for my credit card number.

I guess in the true since of the word I have been a prostitute for the last twenty years, because I received compensation from hunting, and appering in over a dozen TV shows and several videos. I thought what I was doing was trying to pass on what little knowledge I have to those that did not have any.

Thanks to Rich Higgins great generosity I recently had the privilege of watching his entire video collection. Some are the old classics, some hot off the press. Yes they were all made with the hopes of profit, and I truly hope they all made one. One thing that became very clear to me, and that was the reason they were made. The majority were made to pass on years of experience to old and new callers alike with credit given to the folks that helped them gain the knowledge they were sharing with the viewer.

The others that were also both old and new turned my stomach. They were made to say look at me. I invented predator calling, aren't you lucky I am coming into you're home so you can see just how great I am. No credit given to those that helped them. They reminded me of the end zone dances you used to see in the NFL. look at me I scored all by myself. No help from the coaches I had all my life, no help from my team mates. I am the almighty glorious one. Now a word from my sponsors.

Recent post on this board and others have almost made me sick to be part of this profession. I have even considered resigning a position that has been dear to me for many years. Then I think of the unselfish folks we have here who leap to help any and all that ask for help. Not to mention Leonard who provides us with this playing field we sometimes turn into a hog wollow. lord how does he put up with us?.

Scott, Thanks for this post. Thanks to a man of you're calaber I have had many questions that I have been asking myself answerd tonight. Just maybe I am not the only one getting a wiff of something rotten in the wind. Please visit more often.

[ December 27, 2005, 10:25 PM: Message edited by: varmit hunter ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 27, 2005, 11:36 PM:
 
Ronnie, don't despair. You are not the only one with questions.

I know how you feel. All I ever wanted to do, was become a successful predator hunter. Have not earned a dime from it and I'm not famous, either.

You know what, I don't care. LB
 

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Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on December 28, 2005, 01:41 AM:
 
Hot Dog! Wiley E. is back! He has something under his saddle blanket and true to form has generated a lot of ink. Tell us what it is Wiley E. we can handle the truth.
 

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Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on December 28, 2005, 01:45 AM:
 
Ronnie, this is what Craig O’Gorman had to say about the subject. These same issues run in trapping circles as well.

O’Gormans catalog page one……

Speaking of Bud Hall Bill, Nelson, Don Bolte, John Smith, Curtis Grigg, Slim Pedersen, George Good, Bill Austin, Vern Dorn, Paul Bunke, Vernon Hopkins. These, and many dozens of more men that kill fur for a living have helped shape my career, ideas and concepts.

Page 34…..

Some People with fragile egos often claim they are self-made men. But they read all the books; go to the conventions, etc., and it would be impossible that they haven’t picked up things of value from others in the trade. So no man is an island. Often these same men give credit for an idea to a friend yet the true recognition belongs to where the friend learned or picked up the information. Thus, they disguise where the knowledge originated. Often because it came from a man that was a competitor of they were jealous or envious of his success. Their fragile egos wouldn’t permit giving credit to a man that had accomplished more than they because it would leave them insecure and make them feel smaller in their paper image.

I learned early in life that to recognize the truly great trappers that I have learned from and express my admiration, acknowledge their contribution to my career is proper, manly thing to do. It only increases your stature, it doesn’t detract from it.

Good hunting.

Q,
 

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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on December 28, 2005, 04:40 AM:
 
Interesting choice of examples Q. When I think of who might be a whore to the sport of trapping, Craig is at the top of my list.

I've always felt a little guilty of the opinion that I have held of him. I'm never actually met the man in person, but I've read a number of his catalogues. The first one back in the late 80's. My first impression still stands, I think that Craig is a blowhart, a liar and a prick who will tell you anything that he thinks you want to hear, just to make another sale, or to build up his ego.

I hope to some day meet the man, and find out that I was wrong, I've had a number of guys over the years tell me that I was wrong. But then I've also had a number of guys tell me I was spot on.

I will give him one thing, he makes the best coyote bait I've ever tried, and I buy a half a gallon or more from him each year.

Byron,

Relax, you are no pimp. Gerald is a pimp, but you are just a common coyote whore, same as Cal or Lance. But then a lot of us here are just a bunch of coyote sluts. We are giving away for free what you are selling.
 

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Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on December 28, 2005, 05:25 AM:
 
Leonard,

I know who Scott Huber is, and I respect him enough not to judge him. I was simply expecting the same courtousy.

Ronnie,

I also know who Byron South is. And he ain't a prositute by any stretch. I've never tried to claim credit for invinting a dang thing, and have never proclaimed to be an expert on any subject. What I have done is stuck my neck out and produced a video or four that have been well recieved. I have received advise fom many along the way and their help has been noted when credit was due maybe not on film, but I'll bet you will be hard press to find where I have patted myself on the back either. I am in the video business. It cost money to be in the video business. I have a young family that likes to eat. If I gave every new friend I have gained through making these videos a free video I would be bankrupt. All of my true friends that appreciate what struggles I've been through to produce these videos gladly bought theirs.

Anybody that truly knows me knows that I have no ego or false impression of who I really am. It was not my intention to put myself above others to say look at me, but to simply make an instructional video with the things that I have learned over many years from both trial and error as well as others. I have never in the slightest way insinuated that I invented a damn thing when it comes to anything I do. I simply state my approach to calling.

What seems to be happening here is that Tom told Bob then Bob told Joe then Joe took his own money and his own reputation and a lot of hard work, put it on the line by putting it on video but forgot to give Bob the credit. Bob got his feelings hurt because he didn't get to share the profits of Joe's work and risk. So now he's whinning.

My life is pretty transparent. I took a huge risk and put my ass on the line for people to take jabs at. I put my face on video with my money but yet others here seem to get their feelings hurt when the credit is not given to them. If you will watch on my videos I only shoot two coyotes on the first two volumes. My friends do most of the shooting because I'm behind the camera. I didn't make my video to hock a new whiz bang super call, or to say looky here I'm Byron South super man coyote caller. I simply made some instructional calling videos. Get over it.

I have never and will never tear at anothers reputation to try and make myself appear better. I respect and give a man the benefit of doubt and do my dead level best not to judge.

Through doing these videos it has opened a lot of doors for me and I have had the opportunity to meet some extraordinary people some of which were childhood hero's. Also along the way it seems that some are envious of my limited success. This is a shame and also very petty.

I'm late to go kill some coyotes because of this sensless debate. Good Day.

Byron
 

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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on December 28, 2005, 06:10 AM:
 
Giving, passing on, handing down, info, ect, ect. Is what hunting/calling/trapping is all about to me, personally.

The only person[s] who have taught me on spot/stalking, useing hounds, ect, ect. Were my Dad & his 2 bud's. I have learned or improved upon what they all taught me. Throughout my yrs of trial/error on my own.

All of which, is pricelss to me .

------------------------
As for calling, I have learned from many of you & others. Besides my own experience's, on my own.

"Prostituting" that doesn't figure in, IMB. For the folks, whom try to make a living doing so.

People have shared with myself. I feel obligated to do the same to others. Maybe one [tibit] from myself, will help someone do a better job.

Thats the only reward, I get. Money can't buy that
 

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Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on December 28, 2005, 07:04 AM:
 
Byron, I did not use you're name in my post. I called myself a prostitute not you. Why don't you go back and take a look at who introduced you to this board, and encouraged the members to bye you're first "Instructional" video. You know the one with live Coyotes in the back ground while the high five's are going on.

Son (Texas definition) this is not the time to tread on me. I am watching my home crack and crumble every day from Rita shifting it on the slab while I was in it. Now I am waiting to hear from the insurance company if my home of 28 years has to be torn down.

Maybe I should not be posting in the state of mind I am in now. I come here to escape the destruction of my world only to see the destruction of a sport,hobby, addiction, business I dearly love.

I have only used you're name to promote what you do. At this point in time it would be wise for you not to use my name as some one that has tried to do you harm. Tell you what from now on don't address me, and I will do the same.
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on December 28, 2005, 07:12 AM:
 
Scott, the demographics in this area change constantly, with calling pressure increasing at a constant rate. Phoenix is now the 5th largest city in the nation, six million people live in this valley. There are three large predator calling clubs in this metro area alone. There are three Sportsman's Warehouses in the metro area and each present predator calling seminars throughout the season with the objective of cultivating more customers to buy the related neccessaries they stock on their shelves.
They are successful.
There are no virgin ears left. There are no private honey holes left. I run into trucks of callers often. I see butt prints and brass in my old calling areas. This extends for miles in all directions. Tyler and I talked to the manager of a n olive farm down by Gila Bend , about 120 miles from PHX. He told us that he runs callers off the property 3-4 times a week, all week long, not just weekends. A rancher down by Casa Grande told us the same thing 2 years ago. He said he runs callers off almost daily. "They come up from Tucson and they come down from Phoenix." to quote the man. All areas of the state are getting pressured because the huge numbers of callers are driving further to get some elbow room. This state was a paradise 25 years ago. No longer.

Pampass Knowitall Calling Slut
Wannabe Whore
 

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Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on December 28, 2005, 07:18 AM:
 
I think this is a hell of a good thread too. One thing about Scott, he can generate some thought provoking ideas in a matter of a sentence or two. It makes me think back to try to recall if I have ever not given credit where credit is due. I have learned damn near everything I know from someone else. Of course a guy picks a few things up on his own, but I have made an effort to learn about coyotes from alot of different people. And I feel that I have been lucky enough to have spent some time with some guys that I really respect. Most of them never have been and never will be heard of on the great WWW, but they are guys that have made their living killing coyotes and were good at it and well respected in their field. I even went to Tim's buddy Craig O'Gorman this year. That was my 40th birthday present to myself and well worth it.

One of my best learning experiences actuall came at a team roping school years ago. Jake Barnes was the heading instructor and one of his theories was that a person could learn something from everyone, whether they were great or not. He said if you were watching someone that was really struggling just watch what they do, and then don't do it.
 

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Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on December 28, 2005, 07:29 AM:
 
well, according to Tim's catagories (got to give credit ) I'm a coyote slut. Do it for free, and do it often.

I'm still trying to figure out the prostitute thing.

"Prostitute: A person who degrades his talents for money."

The "for money" part I understand, but the "person who degrades his talents" is the part I don't get. I don't see how Byron, Lance, or anyone is "degrading his talents" by the making of their products for sale. They're selling knowledge for coyote hunting, just like Savage sold me a rifle for coyote hunting. Is savage a prostitue because they sold the rifle for money? Should they have given me the rifle? Should they have contributed thier knowledge of gun building, the materials, tool costs, shipping, production costs, etc and given me the rifle for free? Or by selling me the rifle for money have they degraded their talents? How? I'm confused.

As far as someone being given an idea and then using it to make a profit without giving credit to the source, well, that's why the gov't has patents and copyrights. If you want credit you patent or copyright it. Right??? Isn't that how it works for everything that is made or printed? The problem of someone "stealing" and idea someone gave them and making a profit from it has been around for as long as man has been here. Who knows, maybe the idea of the wheel was invented by Joe who told Tom and then Tom "stole" the idea and started selling wheels with the name "Tom" stamped on the side with no reference to Joe anywhere.

In the end if you have something that someone can use for profit you either patent/copyright it and make the profit yourself after alot of blood, sweat, and tears, or keep it to yourself. If you give something away for free expect it to be taken.

And once you give it away, is it still yours? If I give you a can of pop, is it still mine? If you tell me a coyote calling secret is it still yours? You gave it to me, I took it. It's mine to use. Right? Otherwise why did you give it to me?

Now if I lie and say I've been coyote hunting for 30 years, etc, I'm just a liar. Everybody lies, some more than others. Lieing has been around since Adam and Eve. It was wrong then, it's wrong now, but people do it. So I'm not surprised someone took something you gave them and then lied about it.

But I'll continue to be a humble coyote slut. Someday I might be a prostitute, I'm writing and storing off all my calling short stories (one short story per hunt) in the event I decide to put the best in a collection, one short story per chapter, and sell them as a book. I'm sure there will be a couple tidbits of knowlege in there even though it's supposed to be an easy reeding, take you along on my hunts, book. Since I'll obviously have to charge money for it to cover printing and heaven forbid a little profit that would help to pay the bills, I'll probably be a prostitute at that point. That'll be a happy day.

later,
scruffy
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on December 28, 2005, 08:11 AM:
 
Leonard,

Although I appreciate your vote of confidence and/or sarcasm (LOL!), I am not a "legend" in any way shape or form. I have not done anything that many others before me have done and I am not doing anything that others aren't doing now. "Legend" is an opinion. Please spare me from further embarrassment you awnry cuss. LOL!

My "legendary" status is confined to spending 2 weeks painting bus sheds for throwing a match in a wastebasket on the last day of my Senior year in high school. I may have also received "legendary" status for my actions relating to a few parties I have attended at Vocational school. I might achieve legendary status by some for stirring the pot on public forums. Haha!

Other than that I am just a seasoned coyote trapper and caller that will let his accomplishments speak for themselves.

Quinton,

OG: "Often these same men give credit for an idea to a friend yet the true recognition belongs to where the friend learned or picked up the information. Thus, they disguise where the knowledge originated. Often because it came from a man that was a competitor of they were jealous or envious of his success. Their fragile egos wouldn’t permit giving credit to a man that had accomplished more than they because it would leave them insecure and make them feel smaller in their paper image."

Quinton,

Really think about Craig's statement. If Craig O'Gorman taught me how to trap, he's saying that I should be giving Bud Hall and George Good the credit since Bud and George taught Craig. Now you tell me how much sense that makes?

Credit should be given to the person who taught me, not to the person that taught the person who taught me. It's Craig's choice whether or not to give credit to the men who taught him. If I happen to know the originator of a particular method, it's more than proper to acknowledge the innovator but what's more important to me is that I acknowledge those who have taught me and their accomplishments.

I have personally learned a lot about trapping coyotes from Craig O'Gorman as well as a host of other good coyote men including some of which taught Craig but most of you would not know them anyway.

If "Joe the Hoe" teaches Sam Spam how to trap, Sam Spam might not even know that "Joe the Hoe" learned from "Bob the knob" (who attained legendary status from an old girl friend). Maybe Sam Spam didn't give "Bob the knob" credit for teaching "Joe the Hoe" because Sam Spam didn't know "Bob the knob" even existed, so how could Sam be "disguising where the knowledge originated"?? Think about it Q!

Ok Q, you can stop thinking about it. LOL!

Craig first assumes that Sam Spam even knew that "Joe the Hoe" learned from "Bob the Knob". Then Craig takes the leap into assuming Sam's motive for not mentioning Bob was because Sam was jealous, insecure, envious of Bob, and had a fragile ego. That takes quite an imagination wouldn't you say Q?

Craig also contradicts himself. He says "no man is an island" which is true so do we take this to it's eternal end and give credit to those who taught Bud and George since Bud and George wouldn't be islands either?

See how ridiculous his statement is?

Again, it's fine to give credit to where the knowledge originated if you are privy to that information but it's more important for me to give credit to the people who taught me.

I guess my "prostitution" comment has generated more discussion than the coyote calling demographics topic so we'll head down that road for awhile. Hehehe!

BS: "Your not alone in your seemingly, bitter assessment of others that would somehow like to enjoy and learn the art of calling critters and those that are willing to help them."

Just out of curiousity Brian, since I don't know you from Adam and have never seen your videos, would it be safe to say that you are helping others for monetary gain?

Secondly, why would you assume that I have anything against those who want to learn? Where did you derive that from anything I have stated? That's quite a leap considering all those who I have helped over the years.

BS: "Does the initial person that has an original thought have sole rights to that thought?"

Of course not. Does the person who showed you his favorite honey hole on public land have sole rights to that honey hole? Of course not. I doubt he'll buy you a beer if he sees you at that honey hole with someone else while filming a video the next time he goes to his favorite honey hole to shoot a coyote.

This is about respect.

To your and Lance's question regarding who is Bob and Joe? Bob is a an experienced fictional coyote caller who teaches a select few, that he trusts not to prostitute his knowledge, what he has learned over his many years of experience. Joe is also a fictional character who is one of Bob's select few who is limited in his experience but ***** what he learned from Joe for his own monetary gain and his own notoriety. Joe is so full of himself that he fails to even mention Bob's name as he's selling Bob's knowledge to others on videos and CDs. To my way of thinking, Joe is a real SOB hence, "Joe the Hoe". It really doesn't matter who Bob and Joe are because if Joe had any respect for Bob, he would be more careful about what he ***** to others disguised as his own knowledge. Nope, no contradiction in what I just said about Craig's comment because Joe actually takes credit for what he learned from Bob.

What purpose would it serve to mention Bob's name? The damage and disrespect has already been done. Poor Ol' "Joe the Hoe" will eventually learn that what goes around comes around.

BS: "Not sure if you've ever even seem my videos and we have certainly not met or hunted together, but what I've put on my videos are the tactics that I use. Most of which were learned by hard knocks and trial and error. Some were even learned from others."

BS: "I've never tried to claim credit for invinting a dang thing, and have never proclaimed to be an expert on any subject."

BS: "I have received advise fom many along the way and their help has been noted when credit was due maybe not on film, but I'll bet you will be hard press to find where I have patted myself on the back either."

BS: "I have never in the slightest way insinuated that I invented a damn thing when it comes to anything I do."

Hold your horses Brian, I don't know you from Adam. Never saw any of your videos. Don't jump to conclusions thinking my "prostitution" comment was referring to you.

It's good to see you acknowledge that you have never claimed to have invented a damn thing after claiming that most of what you teach was learned by trial and error and hard knocks.

Glad we cleared that up.

BS: "What seems to be happening here is that Tom told Bob then Bob told Joe then Joe took his own money and his own reputation and a lot of hard work, put it on the line by putting it on video but forgot to give Bob the credit. Bob got his feelings hurt because he didn't get to share the profits of Joe's work and risk. So now he's whinning."

Nah, what's really happening here is that "Joe the Hoe", with his limited experience, sold Bob's vast coyote calling knowledge and experience for his own financial gain and notoriety when that information was entrusted to him in confidentiality just to help the guy out. "Joe" is a parasite as far as I'm concerned. If you're not Joe, don't worry about it Bryan South. Keep doing what you are doing and let your conscience be your guide.

I find the opinions on this topic will vary depending on whether one is on the receiving and selling end of the information or the giving end of the information.

Trust me, I am not saying anything about Joe that I haven't already said to Joe. Joe doesn't have many friends left but he has the money he made from their knowledge.

~SH~

[ December 28, 2005, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 28, 2005, 09:28 AM:
 
Scott,

I think I see the points you're trying to make, but why now, and why here? In the last 24 hours, directly as a result of your initial posting of this thread, you've got Byron and Ronnie at each other's throats, not to mention having offended several of us that may, in some way, consider your remarks to be directed at one of us, whether those remarks have any validity or not. You'd think it was July from the posturing going on around here today.

Byron,

The fact that I'm getting filthy, stinkin' rich off my writing and that I may have been included in Scott's first sorty was not lost on me. I opted to not get my panties too bunched up until I had the chance to let Scott further expound on his position. He has, and still, things are a little convoluted for me and I know no more about what he's talking about now then I did earlier today.

I guess if the impression by those outside the conversations I have had, either personally or via the web, is that I may be seeking credit for the experience and expertise of my contributors, nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, without exception, every one of those contributors will acknowledge that nothing from me goes to print without the full approval of each and every contributor. In a few cases, those people have asked that they not have attention drawn to them, but those have been the exception rather than the rule. I've given full credit to every one of you that have worked with me, taught me, or offered me advice, so I can honestly say that I don't think SH's finger is pointing at me.

But, and this is my point, Scott, there are a lot of people on this forum that do make some of their income from calling coyotes and other predators. Somebody is going to make money, so why shouldn't it be people who have shown themselves to be the real deal by putting their knowledge on display for public consumption, then let the consumer decide. Today, the whole place is up in arms thinking everyone else thinks ill of them for something that all of us but one (apparantly) didn't do. Again, it must have been important enough to you that you feel compelled to bring it up. So, quit dancing around the issue, state your case and let everybody else off the hook.
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on December 28, 2005, 09:38 AM:
 
Varmit Hunter: "The majority were made to pass on years of experience to old and new callers alike with credit given to the folks that helped them gain the knowledge they were sharing with the viewer.

The others that were also both old and new turned my stomach. They were made to say look at me. I invented predator calling, aren't you lucky I am coming into you're home so you can see just how great I am. No credit given to those that helped them. They reminded me of the end zone dances you used to see in the NFL. look at me I scored all by myself. No help from the coaches I had all my life, no help from my team mates. I am the almighty glorious one."

TOUCHE'!!!!

Bill Etbauer is a former world champion saddle bronc rider and constant contender at the National Finals Rodeo. The best of the best. He is continually acknowledging those he has learned from. When he received his world champion belt buckle and saddle, when the doors opened he walked into the arena with his hat in his hand while the others raised their hats to the applause of the audience. When Billy Etbauer is interviewed, he is continually giving credit to the stock contractors for the quality of their bucking horses and thanking those who helped him. When he's not riding, he is helping someone and teaching them what he has learned. When Billy Etbauer rides at the National Finals the crowd is on it's feet and he has received more standing ovations than anyone else. YA THINK THERE'S A REASON?

I doubt Billy Etbauer will ever do a saddle bronc video but I wouldn't doubt that some "flash in the pan" will come along to prostitute Billy's saddle bronc riding knowledge.

~SH~
 

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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on December 28, 2005, 09:40 AM:
 
You folks should come up my way. Only 1 other coyote hunter in my territory . A couple thousand acres of cropland with brushy draws/creeks to hunt[permissioned].

Motels around $40.00 a night.

I'll put ya on some. You can kill'em all
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on December 28, 2005, 09:48 AM:
 
Lance: "I've given full credit to every one of you that have worked with me, taught me, or offered me advice, so I can honestly say that I don't think SH's finger is pointing at me."

So you got nothing to worry about then right?

I'm responsible for Lonnie and Bryon going at each other for a comment I made about neither of them? LOL! Ahhhh.....ok? If you say so!

~SH~
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 28, 2005, 10:03 AM:
 
Scott: So you got nothing to worry about then right?

You're right, and I don't think so. Truth be known, I don't even think I have a dog in this fight, so I'd probably be better off leaving well enough alone. Probably will, but you're the one that brought this subject up. Alright, you're trying to make a point. Fine. So, make it. Does this have something to do with Byron? Me? Cal? Ronnie? And if so, what about it? Better yet, why walk into the room, stir the turds, then stand in a corner and watch everyone fight amongst themselves? What does that contribute?
 

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Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on December 28, 2005, 11:03 AM:
 
I don't get it. I always felt prostitution is a fine profession. Buying that "Savage" helps further the career too. Also the cameras, gas, warm coats, etc. In about a week I'll be introducing a brand new look in the world of prostitution. Is prostitution a sport, business or indulgence? Hmmm. Do you think a real prostitute wastes time giving mentoring credits to clients? Hmmm. If you wanna call writers, videographers, seminar hosts all prostitutes, Hoes or OTG's, it's all a matter of perception.

Why... just today I was tutoring what possibly may be the newest prostitute in the industry, but for now we'll just refer to him as a Hoe. fer sure, fer sure.

And yes. I get my feelings hurt everytime I see one of Byron's new videos, but then again, I've been struggling with an over-sensitive personality for many years so it's probably not all his fault.

This is fun guys. Keep it up but PLEASE don't head down that BrokenBack Mountain path. I passed perfectly good beer through the nose on that one.

Mentors - None.
Teachers - many, many, many coyotes.
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on December 28, 2005, 11:11 AM:
 
Mentors - Many
Coyotes - None

Krusty
 

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Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on December 28, 2005, 11:45 AM:
 
Man what a freaking train wreck. All these new callers calling in MY spots, educating MY coyotes. Makes me want to cry. Blame it all on the Internet and videos, of which you partake and enjoy. This reeks of hypocrisy. Then get pissed when credit is not spread in ways that satisfies. Some even get pissed when they don't feel that they got their fair share of the credit. Sounds like a bunch of women.

Ronnie,

First, Thanks for introducing me to this board. It's been an eye opener for sure.

I'm sorry for your troubles and wish you the best of luck in overcoming them. I have a few of my own. Who doesn't? We do the best we can.

My intention was not to tread on you Ronnie, but wasn’t going to let anyone by with treading on me either, even you. Though you didn't mention me by name it was very obvious your comments were directed at me. I'm not sure where your feelings got hurt, but you can rest easy. There is no destruction of the sport, hobby, business you so dearly love going to happen any time soon. And especially from anything little ole me, the Internet, or videos have done.

Wiley E,

I don't wish to play word games with you. I'm a pretty simple person without any ill intentions or motives. I dearly love to call coyotes and have been doing so since I was about 10 years old.(I'm 41, so my math would make that about 30 years). We have never met but from reading your post I think we may agree on more things than which we disagree.

What I took offence to was, very simply, your seemingly negative view of the profession I find myself in. I merely did not agree with your assessment of what I do for a living. I simply provide a product that is of use to a very small niche market. If money or fame were my intentions I damn sure wouldn't have chosen predator calling. I feel very uncomfortable in front of the camera, or doing seminars but do it anyway because I feel I have something to add to the sport of calling. I can assure you neither ego, fame, or profit is the key motivator. I do, however, make money for sure and make no apologies for it. In fact I hope I make a ton of money because I'm sick and tired of having to weld and build fence for a living and would much rather call coyotes. Read that carefully. No contradiction.

Did I learn a lot from others? Hell yes I did, but who hasn't? It has never been even remotely insinuated in my videos that I'm a self-made calling wizard (can’t speak for the others). I didn't grown up with a dad or granddad that hunted. Matter of fact no in my family hunted. An uncle gave me a call when I was 8-9 years old. I called my first coyote with that call and have been at it every since. Growing up in a farm a ranch environment gave me a lot of testing ground. With no mentors, I picked up what I could from magazine articles and when I got older and started getting around I would talk with other hunters. Most of these guys weren't callers but deer hunters with predator calls. So most of what I learned was pretty much self-taught trial and error with very little from outside sources other than a few magazine articles. Now, whom should I give the credit to? The magazine? The writer? Or the persons he quoted? You see, I didn't have a mentor. Sure I looked up to the same guys most of you did like Murry Burnham, Winston Burnham and Johnny Stewart. I took a lot of there advice and used it. I simply don't feel the need to run around spouting their names as shaping me into who I am. No ego involved, just don't see the need or purpose. Again this is not about egos and who gets the credit. I for sure don't want any.

Don't take my remarks or defensive posture as weakness, shame, or guilt. It is neither. I make no apologies for what I do for a living and actually take a certain amount of pride in it. Vanity? Maybe, but I think a poor country boy can afford a little.

While I'm on my soapbox, this "union employee" type mentality that insinuates, "the boss is making money off my labor" stinks of liberalism to me. My videos are 20 bucks each and I feel that is a bargain. If you don't then simply don't buy them, and don't hold you’re breaths expecting one for free. They weren’t free to me.

In the last couple of years, I’ve received a little notoriety in our sport. I actually find it somewhat flattering but kind of silly. I’m still the same as I always was, and it this stage in my life I doubt I will ever change.

I'm going to take a breath now walk away a try to get some work done. I hate it when I let this stinking thinking get to me. I'm not as upset as it might seem by reading my post. Just don't quiet understand what makes some people feel the way they do sometimes. I suspect it has something to do with some type of perceived inadequacy maybe even my own.

You’re all a bunch of whores and sluts.

Byron

[ December 28, 2005, 12:01 PM: Message edited by: Byron South ]
 

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Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on December 28, 2005, 12:03 PM:
 
Hmmm. I suppose I should keep my mouth shut at this point but it's just not my style....

Lots and lots of ideas and opinions expressed here and perhaps all we video makers, seminar givers and writers shouldn't have to take offense unless we want to. But, Scott has never had the best tact so it feels that anyone who profits off this sport is who he's pointing the finger at.

I suppose that to give credit where credit is due, my next video will be two scenes of coyotes getting killed and 72.5 minutes of credits thanking everyone who ever taught me anything. Think it'll be a good seller????

You know, no matter what field someone enters into, he has mentors all through life that turn him into the man he is today. The best of surgeons had great teachers along the way. We all had help getting to where we are.

Not everyone wants to make a buck off of predator hunting. But, for those that do, the difference between those making a buck and those who aren't is that those making the money are taking all of their knowledge, adding in some sweat and hard work and taking the risk to do it. It's plain and simple. And, my knowledge is a mixture of what I learned from others and what my own experiences have taught me. No one is any different.

What I don't understand is Scott's apparent need for a pat on the back (or maybe a cut of the profit???) from whomever he thinks took all this info and never gave him any credit????

But, frankly I just don't care what anyone else thinks of my writing and video and making money from predator hunting. If that makes me a pimp or a prostitute, then I'm in very good company.
 

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Posted by RonDell (Member # 761) on December 28, 2005, 12:12 PM:
 
I'm somewhat new to the sport compared to most of you. So where do people like me fit in? If I read some article or watch a hunting video am I contributing to the promotion of prostitution? Personally I enjoy reading about predator hunting and watching videos about it because it is more enjoyable than anything I see on television. I know that some writers aren't the real experts but they have the art for writing on behalf of the expert that can't write or does not have the skill or time to do it. Everyone has their own expertise. Wouldn't it be boring if the hunter on camera was the narrator an all he said was "We are here to call some coyotes so we done it"?
Sometimes the middle-man is necessary in order to get something we have no clue getting on our own. Go-getters like Bill Gates are persecuted for their over-achieving by those who didn't invent the internet and now want to cash in on something they couldn't come up with on their own. Same thing for the Hoes talked about here. Their initiative is what's being attacked.

Thank God that Al Gore invented the internet. At least he gives credit where credit is due.
 

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Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on December 28, 2005, 12:21 PM:
 

quote:

---

I doubt Billy Etbauer will ever do a saddle bronc video but I wouldn't doubt that some "flash in the pan" will come along to prostitute Billy's saddle bronc riding knowledge.

---

Say Bill is not going to make a video, he tells someone all his secrets, that person goes out and makes a video, doesn't give credit to Bill, some people buy it and learn from it and are better bronc riders.

Given the type of person you described Billy to be, is Billy going to A. be upset and hurt that someone passed on his knowledge and didn't give him credit. Or B. Billy will look past that he didn't get credit for it and know that the video helped alot of people be better bronc riders.

I don't know the answer, I don't know anything about Bill Etbauer except for your short writeup.

But what's more important, getting the credit or that people are helped?

later,
scruffy

[ December 28, 2005, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
 

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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on December 28, 2005, 12:35 PM:
 
Last winter, I took a young new-guy coyote hunting. Spotted one for him over 1/2 mile away. Chewing on a cow carcass.

I said, see that little speck, out there..[I pointed]. He says "Where?....Ok I see it now"

I said, "There is a coyote feeding on that carcass & your gonna kill him" I'm sure he doubted all of this.

He asked, "Can you hunt that land?" I say's "ya"

We had to stalk into the section from the other side "blindly". We neared the last ridge, before the coyote. I took him by the shoulder & whispered to him.

"He's right over this hill, right there[pointing]. I said he's around a 110yrds away. told him to "do what, I do".

We crept slowly over the ridge. Bingo!...coyote a 100yrds, right where I said, he'd be. We both got a [SEG] on our face's.

He whispered, "I can't hold still, for a shot". I whispered, "Put your rifle across my Right shoulder. He did....Bang! Coyote down. Young guy, looked like he won the LOTTO.

Coyote, gets up, walking in circles. He keeps shooting can't connect to finish her. He asked me to, I did.

I was elated for this young man! I think more so than himself.

Cost him, nothing. But was priceless, to me

The other day, he solo stalked in on a Red. Shot him, 1-shot...1-kill @ 200yrds. I was proud of him.

[ December 28, 2005, 12:38 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
 

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Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on December 28, 2005, 12:40 PM:
 
scruffy,
I guess the concern lies with future legends overshadowing the ones we know today causing us to forget them and history gets distorted down the road.

Aaron received death threats prior to breaking Babe Ruth's record. Babe Ruth was the greatest baseball player there was. Was he? Even though his records have been broken? I know kids who don't know who Michael Jordan is but a lot of BBall players use his style.

As far as predator calling goes, I don't want to be a howler like Higgins, nor a mister like Bosinski, nor wear out my shoes like a Q, nor spit 'bacci like a South, nor wear funny hats like a Behle, nor make videos like a Martz, nor brave the cold like a Buker, nor make 1000 yard shots like a Robison, nor record sounds like a Stewart, nor any of that stuff.

Oh wait! I'm guilty of not mentioning the original Legendary Hoes like Weems, Cain, Mossinger, Alcorn, Lindsey, Burnham, Lohman, Thompson, Bosinski, Thomas, Dougherty, Kitridge, Dudley, Higley, Mills, Henry, Clancy, Rogers, Blair, Moore and Bosinski.

[ December 28, 2005, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: Jay Nistetter ]
 

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Posted by Bill (Member # 49) on December 28, 2005, 12:43 PM:
 
RonDell in this little scenerio we're the Johns

Bill
 

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Posted by RonDell (Member # 761) on December 28, 2005, 12:46 PM:
 
LOL!
Hope I don't catch anything.

Looks like we're just 2 Johns surrounded by a bunch of Hoes.

[ December 28, 2005, 12:47 PM: Message edited by: RonDell ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 28, 2005, 01:05 PM:
 

quote:

---

Say Bill is not going to make a video, he tells someone all his secrets, that person goes out and makes a video, doesn't give credit to Bill, some people buy it and learn from it and are better bronc riders.

Given the type of person you described Billy to be, is Billy going to A. be upset and hurt that someone passed on his knowledge and didn't give him credit. Or B. Billy will look past that he didn't get credit for it and know that the video helped alot of people be better bronc riders.

---

As to the question posed by scruffy: I think the answer is neither. It would be "other" folks that happen to know the history.

Look, I think we have stumbled on a great buzz word. I had no idea there would be such a strong reaction to the word prostitute, as it is used in this thread.

Further observation. Some of you guys are taking offense; where I can't fathom the reason? Cripes, just laugh it off if you can't see where it has your name on it. The worst thing you can do is respond. Now, everybody knows that a nerve was struck and they wonder why that may be?

Pertinent statement #1:
You gotta have a thick skin on the Internet, we all know that.
Statement #2 we are all friends here, don't get bent out of shape over small $hit.

Good hunting. Madame LB

And, I'm a little miffed that nobody has mentioned my name as a vast reservoir of knowledge, contributing greatly to y'alls ability to kill coyotes AND make a living. (like a coyote god)
Donations in cash, Mastercard and Visa accepted, no checks.

edit: thanks for mentioning my name ***! the recognition is long overdue. But, only twice?

[ December 28, 2005, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on December 28, 2005, 01:09 PM:
 
For forty years all I did was shoot them. No videos or DVD's back in those days. No internet experts, either. Read an occasional Field & Stream article when I was in the barber shop. Read tips from guys like Jim Dougherty and Johnny Stewart. Got my "firsthand" tutoring from the instruction pamphlets that came with a Burnham Bros. and Bowen Weems calls. Never wrote a book, never even took pictures. For me it was fun, not business. Maybe I just don't take life seriously enough?
 

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Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on December 28, 2005, 01:13 PM:
 

quote:

---

scruffy,
I guess the concern lies with future legends overshadowing the ones we know today causing us to forget them and history gets distorted down the road.

---

quote:

---

as the time passes. It'll be South, Anderson, etc. And then those after them.

---

Oh boy, scruffy! I think you have framed the discussion quite well.

[ December 28, 2005, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on December 28, 2005, 01:17 PM:
 
Scruffy,
I heard a YaHoo coming from East Texas on that one. You gave South marquee billing ahead of Anderson.

Leonard,
I was referring to past and present. That only leaves you unmentioned for "Future" and your "Future" depends on how your video turns out. what's it going to be called?

Coyotes in the Mist

I was a bit uncomfortable lumping you in with the Legendary ***s, but as they say "Indiscretion is the bitter part of valour" and Generating ire is far easier than winning friends.

[ December 28, 2005, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: Jay Nistetter ]
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 28, 2005, 01:35 PM:
 
Leonard: "I think you have framed the discussion quite well."

You only say that because he listed your name twice. You Ho. Well deserved.

(And BTW, it's "ho" without the "e". A hoe is a garden utensil. Source of information - my 14 y/o son. I don't know no ho's. Then again, I didn't know he knew any either. Credit where due. Also, if we're giving credit where due, wouldn't we all just say Alcorn and call it good?)

(I don't yet know that I have any idea what Scott's point is, though. )
 

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Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on December 28, 2005, 01:38 PM:
 
No mistake made.LOL!
I think of all of 'em as garden Hoes.

It's a tough row to Ho.

[ December 28, 2005, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: Jay Nistetter ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 28, 2005, 02:05 PM:
 
I always thought "ho" was eubonics for black women? No offense.

Lance, no question about it, you give credit.....as well you should.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Bill (Member # 49) on December 28, 2005, 02:09 PM:
 
I think I get it now. This was Wiley E's Christmas joke. Ol' Saint Nick says " Merry Christmas, Ho, Ho Ho", while pointing at you and you and YOU!

Bill
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on December 28, 2005, 02:17 PM:
 
Hey Byron,
you wrote
"All these new callers calling MY areas. Calling MY coyotes. Makes me want to cry." Etc.
Was that in response to my post to Wiley?
 

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Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on December 28, 2005, 02:37 PM:
 
I'd change my login to Joe the Ho(hoe) except I haven't cleared a penny on a coyote since I quit trapping 27 years ago at the end of this season.
Joe the Slut just ain't got no swing...
 

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Posted by Todd Woodall (Member # 439) on December 28, 2005, 03:28 PM:
 
Yahoo, I have always wanted to be a pimp!! Can Jeff and I both be pimps or does one of us have to be a ho? We could run into the old "too may pimps and not enough ho's" situation. That would be bad.

I do have a question though. If we all get together and make a video would it be an orgy?

I can gaurantee you one thing, you wont see me taking credit for misting. Take that you dead horse. I am going to go aggrivate my pregnant wife, she whines better than you guys anyway.

I vote Bryon for "Pimp of the year". We got to find you some boots with goldfish in the heels.

Todd

[ December 28, 2005, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: Todd Woodall ]
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on December 28, 2005, 04:02 PM:
 
Lance: "Alright, you're trying to make a point. Fine. So, make it."

I thought I did? With one word I flushed out 3 guilty consciences. LOL! I found that quite amazing considering that I never even mentioned anyone's name.

Lance: "Does this have something to do with Byron? Me? Cal? Ronnie? And if so, what about it?"

Only Bryon, You, Cal, and Ronnie can answer that.

Was my remark intended for you guys? Nope! I haven't seen where any of you have prostituted anything that I told you in confidentiality.

Until this post, I didn't know a Bryon South but it appears he has a guilty conscience or he wouldn't have taken offense to my opinion of the less experienced callers selling the knowledge of the more experienced callers for their own financial gain and notoriety.

I've never met Ronnie nor have I ever seen him in a video. It appears that he has seen his knowledge and experience sold by someone.

Cal and I are friends. He knows exactly what I'm talking about. Cal has the miles behind him and has never acted like he was a self made man. That's why I enjoy hunting with Cal. Cal's motives are right.

As far as you Lance? I don't have any thoughts about you one way or the other and why would you care anyway? I don't give a sh*t what anyone thinks of me or my opinion why should you?

RB: "I suppose that to give credit where credit is due, my next video will be two scenes of coyotes getting killed and 72.5 minutes of credits thanking everyone who ever taught me anything. Think it'll be a good seller????"

That statement speaks for itself.

RB: "What I don't understand is Scott's apparent need for a pat on the back (or maybe a cut of the profit???) from whomever he thinks took all this info and never gave him any credit????"

Hahaha! That's funny!

Randy you're really grasping here and as with Bryon's remarks, I have to wonder why? Hmmmm????

Varmit hunter summed up the differences perfectly between those who are genuinely interested in teaching and sharing their experience and knowledge with others on video and DVD and those who are into showboating and prostituting other's experiences and knowledge for their own notoriety and financial gain. The difference lies in attitude and respect. If that offends you, I honestly don't care. Showboats offend me!

The only pat on the back I have ever needed is the distinct sound of yet another 55 gr. Nosler ballistic tip finding it's way home. My feelings of satisfaction comes from my accomplishments with both trapping and calling, not from what someone else thinks of my accomplisments. I have been a lone wolf for the better part of my life and prefer it that way. If I needed a pat on the back it would be because I was insecure in my abilities as a trapper and a caller. I can assure you that such is not the case.

As far as "a cut of the profit", that's another reach. If I wanted to sell my knowledge in trapping, snaring, calling, and M-44s, I would have already done it. I had many offers. Someday I might when I feel I have enough experience and those I teach will not be competing against those who taught me.

I volunteered for one video only to be made to look like a babbling idiot by an inexperienced cameraman who spooked the coytoes. Once bitten twice shy.

As far as not getting credit, that's another reach. I have taught some new callers how to call coyotes and saw this information on a video before this person even had a chance to apply what I had taught him. My friends and I got quite a kick out of that. I didn't take it personal, I just considered the source and moved on. I certainly didn't share anything with that person again.

Funny Randy, I've never met you either yet you think you know so much about me. You don't know sh*t about me and you just made a fool of yourself by proving it.

~SH~

[ December 28, 2005, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on December 28, 2005, 05:07 PM:
 
Scott,

Sounds like I hit a nerve?

Actually what I posted is based on perceptions. In fact that's all any of us have to go on. In fact, that's all you have to go on with me too.

And because I've had the chance to read much of what you've written over the years I've drawn some conclusions. I do know at least what you've chosen to let us know. When you say I don't know you, that's just plain false. I do know you from what you've written. I simply have never met you.

In the case of this thread, I find it very rude that you choose to hint and make inuendo and when someone calls you on it you become sarcastic accusatory. If you've got something to say, be a man and come out and say it.

Scott H. I volunteered for one video only to be made to look like a babbling idiot by an inexperienced cameraman who spooked the coytoes. Once bitten twice shy.

A camera man make you look liek a "babblin" idot? Wow, one tough camera man.

Scott, you've got an excellent reputation as a coyote hunter. Your people skills are severely lacking though.

Randy
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 28, 2005, 05:23 PM:
 
Come on, Scott. You can tone down the rhetoric a notch, I think you were stiring the pot quite well before you started getting specific.

Reminds me of last year at the campout. Higgins wanted to know why I didn't tell him and everyone else, everything I have ever learned about night hunting since I'm not doing much competing anymore. Well, I just don't have a burning desire to offer for free, all that I know, and have it disregarded, or discounted; or used by others and purported to be original discoveries by those intent on padding their own resume. I have seen a number of my theories bandied about on the internet without credit. I must admit, it bothers me, some.

Then, there is the negative opinions on misting. Those are more amusing, than irritating. Ah yes, why do predator hunters have to have such large egos? Is it because they lack in other respects? lol

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by InjunJoe (Member # 658) on December 28, 2005, 05:33 PM:
 
I fail to see any real problem on either side. Yolanda's a Ho and damn proud of it.

Yeah, I see guys with 4 or 5 coyotes under their belts giving advice on how to hunt coyotes all the time. Mostly I just chuckle to myself, but when they start boasting falsehoods to places like Gander Mountain in order to make a buck, I have a real problem with it.

Let's be honest. It only takes a couple minutes talking to someone to absolutely know if he is blowing smoke up your pipes. Sure he can be repeating truisms and bits and pieces of things he's read or watched on TV and I don't really have any problem with that. The real trouble lies when I see other dumb SOB's starting to believe in a false idol when the experience isn't really there.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 28, 2005, 05:49 PM:
 
Randy, I really don't see why you are involving yourself? I don't think Wiley singled you out, just because you made a video...and I'm not sticking up for him, either. Who would have read his first remarks and said:

"wow, he's talking about Buker, plain as day!"

You are certainly entitled to an opinion, as is everyone else, but I am a bit puzzled by you taking his comments as personal? Rude, yes, but I didn't read anyone's name into his comments, no one in particular?

You guys use a little restraint or there might be some hard feelings, down the road. Just friendly advice for all concerned. Not a threat, I'd just hate to see someone acquire an enemy over frivilous $hit.

Good hunting. LB

[ December 28, 2005, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on December 28, 2005, 05:56 PM:
 
RB: "In the case of this thread, I find it very rude that you choose to hint and make inuendo and when someone calls you on it you become sarcastic accusatory. If you've got something to say, be a man and come out and say it."

I don't know how I could make my thoughts any plainer than I have Randy. For your sake I'll explain it again. Any inexperienced caller who ***** an experienced callers knowledge and experience, that was given to him in confidentiatlity, for his own financial gain and notoriety is a prostitute in my opinion. If that offends you, I DON'T CARE! If you see that as "rude", I DON'T CARE! Fast Buck Artists and showboats offend me.

Plain enough for ya?

RB: "Scott, you've got an excellent reputation as a coyote hunter. Your people skills are severely lacking though."

Your opinion of my people skills and $.05 will buy you a cup of coffee at Wall Drug Randy because I honestly don't care what you think of me. I'm not out to win any popularity contests by addressing the issue of coyote calling prostitution. The reactions go with the territory but rest assured I have made my point.

~SH~

[ December 28, 2005, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 28, 2005, 06:06 PM:
 

quote:

---

I don't have any thoughts about you one way or the other and why would you care anyway? I don't give a sh*t what anyone thinks of me or my opinion why should you?

---

Pretty simple. Because where I work, in the public, it is important to me that I am perceived with at least a minimum of respectand regarded to have some credibility. In short, I respect you - you have earned that with the knowledge you have exhibited. I expect at least a minimum of respect in return. Pretty much what everyone here expects.

The first part of that quote is pretty easy to say, but how well does that work in the real world? Somebody signs your check, at some point, so you must hope that someone respects you.

I've heard tell that you're a pretty good guy face to face and don't doubt that for a fact. Still looking forward to meeting you on the 8th. Be safe getting there.
 

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Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on December 28, 2005, 06:17 PM:
 
Rich,

I must have missed your post, did lots of speed reading though some of it. That comment was mentioned because it is a common complaint I hear pertaining to the question WE posed about to many hunters, especially from those that hunt public land. Complaints about the bird, and deer hunters run a close second. Public land is just that public. Everybody has equal rights to it. I wish sometimes we had more public land. So much of Texas is locked up and unaccessable it makes it very tough for me to have much simpathy for guys that can pull over wherever they like to call. I drive by places every day I wish I could call but know I will never have access to. New guys here can't hardly even find a place to hunt unless they have conections, family land or a silver spoon. The lawyers have people so scared that they are afraid to let anyone set foot on their property. Also Texas has very strict tresspass laws (felony= loose hunting rights), jail, and fine)that are stricly enforced. I spend an enormous amount of time maintaining access to the few places I have. I'm not complaining about it. Thats just the way it is. It will probably get worse as populations grow. We can do like the coyote and adapt or we can wither.

I went just now and found your post and see where your coming from. 6 Million people, no wonder you have a hard time.

Leonard,

Don't worry about me, I'm plenty thick skinned but also speak my mind when sometimes I would be better off just keeping my mouth shut. I have never met the elustrious Scott Huber, but just simply didn't like the way my choosen profession was characterized by him, and said so. I work hard at what I do and didn't appreciate it one bit. Still don't. I'll try to do better in the future to either agree or just keep my mouth shut. No wait, on second thought I will speak my mind or just get my hat and leave. Which ever is better for you and your flock you let me know.

Scott,

Damn man, your on a roll. You have skillfully bent my words around into things I have not said. I'll admit your good at it but I won't play your game. I find it childish and petty, not to mention rude. I have nothing else to say to you and certainly don't feel any need to defend anything I've done. You drew me in with your rude behavior and insinuations but I'm not playing along. You had me for a while though. Your good at stiring shit. I'll certainly give you CREDIT for that. You must be proud.

Todd,

You know me. Do I have an Ego?

See you "Pampass Assholes" later.

Byron
 

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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on December 28, 2005, 06:21 PM:
 
Leonard,

You just stated the reasons I used for leaving you off of my list. I can't call you a coyote whore, because you have a ton of hunting knowledge, and refuse to sell it to anyone.

I can't call you a coyote slut, because you won't give it away for free either.

You come close to being a pimp by running this board, but you refuse to profit in any way from it.

Therefore you are just a hell of a good guy in my book.

Pimp Daddy Gerald is the only pimp I can think of on the board.

He makes money off of coyote hunters and wanna-be coyote hunters, but not by actually doing the dirty work, He organizes and builds the customer base, therefore keeping the coyote whores busy.
 

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Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on December 28, 2005, 06:22 PM:
 
Wiley/Scott, go back to your original unqualified statement #2 in your original post and ask yourself why ANY person who had ever made a video would be offended.
Your subsequent posts have qualified that some, but the opening shot was there. Gerald, Byron, or anybody that has made a video could look at that and take offense.
As a casual observer with no dog in this fight it reads that anyone who ever made a video is a prostitute. Period. It's there in black and white.
You're really not setting on the higher ground that you'd like to claim now.
Blame it on the fragileness of the medium, that may not be what you meant, but it is there.

Re-read it and see what you think.
Leonard, you defended the opening shot. Re-read it and see what you think.
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on December 28, 2005, 06:22 PM:
 


[ December 28, 2005, 06:25 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on December 28, 2005, 06:25 PM:
 
Fair enough Lance!

The fact that you were not offended by my thoughts on coyote calling prostitution speaks well of you. See you in St. Francis.

Good post Leonard!

People's reactions say alot about them doesn't it? Some self evaluate while others puff up and take offense. LOL! Kills me!

I was thinking about Vic Carlson's video today. It's obvious to any seasoned caller that there is information in that video that is original and unique. Specifically in regards to learning coyote body language and applying certain stand set ups for varying habitats. Obviously useful information. He's also held his ground on the use of a .17 and when you see the habitat, you understand why it works for them. I have no problems with videos from someone with experience like Vic, who isn't parroting someone else's knowledge and experience as his own. The CG video is a perfect example of a video backed with experience and originality.

~SH~
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on December 28, 2005, 06:36 PM:
 
BS: "Damn man, your on a roll. You have skillfully bent my words around into things I have not said. I'll admit your good at it but I won't play your game."

Nice try Bryon but that's impossible when responding to your exact quote.

BS: "Your good at stiring shit. I'll certainly give you CREDIT for that. You must be proud."

Why thank you! If I made everyone think a little about this topic, then I accomplished my goal. If I offended you, then perhaps you have a guilty conscience.

~SH~
 

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Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on December 28, 2005, 06:36 PM:
 
On a lighter note...

Tim, does that mean that Leonard is a "tease"?
 

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Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on December 28, 2005, 06:37 PM:
 
Leonard,

I didn't take it as personally as it may seem. These written words are hard to express as meant, sometimes.

Scott painted with a broad brush in a negative manner. You'll notice those who felt the brush stroke being folks who've made a dollar or two in this game.

I just felt it unfair and like I said in my first post, I suppose I should keep my mouth shut but it's just not my nature.

I am actually pretty easy going and don't get riled too easily. What Scott says or alludes to in regards to me really has no bearing on how happy I'll be again tomorrow. I've been around these boards too long to let this kind of thing get to me personally.

No harm, no foul.

Scott,

You said: Your opinion of my people skills and $.05 will buy you a cup of coffee at Wall Drug Randy because I honestly don't care what you think of me. I'm not out to win any popularity contests by addressing the issue of coyote calling prostitution.

I'll take that cup of coffee. On the other points, we are dead even. I don't care what you think of me either. And, I totally agree that you don't win any popularity contests.

You also said: People's reactions say alot about them doesn't it? Some self evaluate while others puff up and take offense. LOL! Kills me

Reactions are funny that way. They tend to be a result of someone's ACTIONS. Those who fail to evaluate their actions and how others may potentially react are simply revealing a huge ego and disregard for others. As I said before... Your people skills are terrible. I'll take that cup of coffee now.
 

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Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on December 28, 2005, 06:38 PM:
 
JoeF,

Thank you. That was my precisely my point before it got diluted.

I'm realitively new to these boards (2 years or so) and all the quirky personalities. I find them ammusing.

Byron
 

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Posted by 17vforcoyote (Member # 548) on December 28, 2005, 06:53 PM:
 
I am new to calling and enjoy getting as much information as I can on the subject. I am offended by the referral to "prostitution" in as much as it makes me a "John". I respect those who are knowlegable on a subject and not afraid to share their knowledge with others. So may I send my thanks to all of you that share your knowledge in print or video. Those that questioned the use of the term "prostitution" such as Cdog911 and Byron South had every right to do so and I have enjoyed all of their articles or videos. Byron said it best. No point in wasting time on such comments. Again thanks for the info.
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on December 28, 2005, 06:58 PM:
 
Scott enjoys calling coyotes and he enjoys calling coyote callers. He sends a dog out to make a pass and see if anything follows it back. Scott does the same thing with a post. He got a lot of takers with this one. It's always interesting to watch him position and work the responders.

Ho! Ho! Ho!
(What the hell does Santa mean by that?)

Save a mouse--- Eat a pussy

[ December 28, 2005, 07:02 PM: Message edited by: Rich Higgins ]
 

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Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on December 28, 2005, 07:03 PM:
 
Rich,

Sometimes even the good coyote callers get burned. Sometimes the prey gets down wind and smells the setup.

Randy
 

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Posted by Todd Woodall (Member # 439) on December 28, 2005, 07:08 PM:
 
Hey Scott, I heard CG have their own website, GO TALK TO THEM!!!!

I agree that Vic is a very nice guy with a ton of experience and knowledge. I could not think of a nicer guy to set around a campfire and chat with. Several of us did just that in November and I would love to do it again.

As far as videos and being original or ripping off others ideas, what do you expect? This aint rocket science and if you havent noticed there are certian things that work, and things that dont. Its pretty cut and dry. Not everyone that makes a video can have some brilliant idea that will change the way everyone views predator hunting. That has already been done years ago and you cant "reinvent the wheel" so to speak. just because I blow into the same end of a call as someone before me doesnt mean I cheated him out of something or stabbed him in the back.

I dont see your motives for even starting this whole thing up, but there is one I am sure. Maybe you just like to stir the pot or maybe there is a specific instance you are pertainting to. In any case, I dont really care, but you sure got this pot churning.

I dont know you, but I have heard your name brought up in some very nice conversations with respect and admiration. This tread is really contradictory to how I would expect you to conduct yourself.

Leonard, Sorry about the misting comment. I just threw that in there for good measure. Trying to lighten the mood a little. DIDNT WORK, by the way.

Byron, I dont think you have an EGO problem at all. You do smell funny though.

Todd

[ December 28, 2005, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: Todd Woodall ]
 

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Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on December 28, 2005, 07:08 PM:
 
Rich, are we supposed to be impressed?
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on December 28, 2005, 07:18 PM:
 
Joe, I'm not going to suggest that you are supposed to be anything at all. I did offer a little insight into motive, which Randy appears to have fathomed. Got your hackles up, didn't he?

Save a tree---- Eat a beaver
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 28, 2005, 07:26 PM:
 
Yup. He's feelin' better.
 

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Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on December 28, 2005, 07:29 PM:
 
Maybe I missed something, because there has been alot to read here in short order and I may have completely missed something, but my understanding of what Wiley is trying to say is that the guys that have very little experience and little actual knowledge, but then gain some nugget of wisdom from a source that willingly or unknowingly gives it up, then said person immediately uses it as his own and profits from it, and is a flamboyant showboat concerning his new found knowledge in any medium such as print or video, is what Wileys irritation is. I really don't think it started off as insinuating that any of the experienced callers here were guilty parties. As far as I know, most of the guys here are die hards that have been at this for some time, and while they may have learned from others, they also have had enough experience in their own areas to know what works and what doesn't. After that, it was up to each person here to decide that maybe Wiley was pointing a finger at them, and some took that ball and ran with it. Myself, I didn't feel that he was talking about me in particular, so I wasn't insulted. I don't think he was refering to the video industry as a whole or the magazine industry, just the new guys that a year or two ago were probably making turkey videos or pornos or something and now all of the sudden they are predator "experts". Where were they 5 years ago? or 10? when predator hunting wasn't the "in" thing. I think that is what Wiley's hackles were up about. I have seen alot of coyote hunting experts in print and on film lately that I really don't think know squat about coyotes, but they can write well or look good on camera, so some camo company hires them and that supposidly MAKES them an expert. It kinda rubs me the wrong way also, but I'll include a disclaimer that as far as I know NONE of them post here.
 

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Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on December 28, 2005, 07:44 PM:
 
Rich, I like your by-lines...

Cal, you have the benefit of reading the complete justification. I saw the original post and saw the storm comimg.

To Scott's original question:

I've seen the best marketing efforts of most fail. Calls gathering dust on shelves everywhere. The craze isn't taking root here.
That said with some qualification: I found out 12/27 that a guy called the farm next to me at daybreak on 12/25 and killed two coyotes and a fox. Two coyotes are not worth a stir, the fox is noteworthy. The good news is that he's an old hand like the some of "you guys". The even better news is that nobody else can call there. Everybody else has to struggle for access to hunt and I don't see the predator craze taking hold.
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on December 28, 2005, 07:49 PM:
 
RB: "Sometimes even the good coyote callers get burned. Sometimes the prey gets down wind and smells the setup."

Most of the good coyote callers I know don't let the coyotes get down wind and smell the setup.

TW: "This tread is really contradictory to how I would expect you to conduct yourself."

How could you have any expectations of me if you don't even know me?

Perhaps it's abnormal behavior for me not to care what others think about me for taking a stand on an issue but I honestly don't care. If everyone on this site lined up to chastise me for picking on the coyote calling prostitutes I wouldn't care. I don't care for inexperienced fast buck artists or coyote calling prostitutes that sell other's knowledge and hard work and that's just the way it is. I don't care how you think I should conduct myself.

~SH~

[ December 28, 2005, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on December 28, 2005, 08:11 PM:
 
Todd,

That funny smell is Byron's mystery mix. (this will make me rich and famous I'm sure of it) If you promise not tell anyone and for God sake don't prositute it on your damn videos I'll tell you what it is. Listeen close. I mix hot lead and burning gun powder, I then spray it out the barrel of my machine gun. The secret to this formula is that it works equally as well upwind as well as down wind. You should see what it does to a crack house. Luv that smell.

Now thats funny I don't care who you are.

Byron
 

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Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on December 28, 2005, 08:39 PM:
 
WOW! Very interesting read! Sure made the shit hit the fan!

Very good read though!

Brent
 

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Posted by Norm (Member # 240) on December 28, 2005, 08:39 PM:
 
Byron, you are too much... I was figuring to read something about mixing some sheep urine with Leonards's majic mist to come up a new hunting deodarant...
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 28, 2005, 08:57 PM:
 
....yeah, me too
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 28, 2005, 09:03 PM:
 
For those that have not been around forever. Wiley E and Rich Higgins used to be at each other's throats over snotty remarks on the Internet. Now, they are in love.

Same with Higgins and Vic Carlson. Same story, now they best of friends. Actually, same as with ME and Vic. But, not no more.

Why? Because you get over the petty $hit and realize that the other guy )actually) is speaking the same language.

Therefore. I expect that Buker and Byron and Huber will turn out to be bossom buddies, in the not to distant future. Count on it.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on December 28, 2005, 09:10 PM:
 
Speaking of Sheep Leonard... What happened to those two sheep at your camp? Where'd they go?

A word of caution. If you ever hunt with Higgins please make sure you are NOT downwind when he checks the wind direction. Trust me on this tidbit of knowledge. You can pass it on free of charge too.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 28, 2005, 09:21 PM:
 
Jay, I have no idea, but the only person I have heard bring it up, like three, maybe four(?) times, is you. Last I saw, she was sleeping in your tent. All I can tell you is I'm totally innocent. I guess somebody scored a nice souvenir? Get over it, Anna doesn't love you any more.

But, did we frisk the Texans, I don't recall?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on December 28, 2005, 09:26 PM:
 
Scott,
If you email me your mailing address, I will send you my newest predator video coming out in about 10 days. I'm pretty sure you've never seen anything like it.
 

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Posted by Todd Woodall (Member # 439) on December 28, 2005, 09:36 PM:
 
Alright Leonard, Your right lets all have a group hug. Ahhhh, thats nice, SHEW who smells like piss.

Byron, you just make sure to keep that Machine Gun of yours pointed in the other direction. I dont see how you hit anything with that light barrel anyway.

Todd
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on December 29, 2005, 03:49 AM:
 
Leonard: "Wiley E and Rich Higgins used to be at each other's throats over snotty remarks on the Internet. Now, they are in love."

Hahaha! In love????? Try "have developed a mutual respect".

Here's the Huber version of a typical Higgins/Huber conversation (paraphrasing):

Higgins: "Did you know Dirty Johnny shot a 50 lb. coyote in Tenbucktwo".

Huber: "The biggest coyotes around this area top out at about 40 pounds but most large coyotes run in the 30 - 35 pound category. Upstate NY has a lot of 50 pound coyotes."

Higgins: "Yes, in the Western part of the state they have a red wolf subspecies of Canis Latrans Mesidus Lupus Hectus Steroidis Largis"

Huber: ".................."

Higgins: "Hello?"

Huber: "Yeh, I'm still here. I'm not so sure I believe all the coyote subspecies research. It seems to have merit to some based on the fact that it is difficult to disprove. Remember researchers were trying to convince the public that sasquatch existed based on the infamous photo we all know now was a hoax"

Higgins: "............"

Huber: "Hello?"

Higgins: "Yeh, I'm still here"

Hahaha! I'll bet Higgins has a different version.

You see Leonard, neither of us have changed much we have just learned to tolerate eachother. LOL! I respect Rich as a passionate student of coyote behavior but I have taken coyote behavioral study in a different direction than he has. I still can't relate to calling up coyotes and filming them as they blink at me and tilt their heads but I have to admit that I don't learn anything about their behavior after they are dead other than watching their tail wag a few times. Nor do I relate to the taxonomy of subspecies or the alpha beta gama rho vocabulary of those conducting many of the studies that are based on their difficulty to disprove as opposed to solid supporting evidence.

What I like about Rich is that I have the confidence in him that he respects me enough not to prostitute anything I have told him in confidentiality.

One thing I find quite common among veteran callers is a very low tolerance for this arrogant unappreciative attitude by the "flash in the pans" who think 35+ years of coyote calling tips are owed them for their own commercialization. It's obvious Leonard and Ronnie have the same opinion but then they are on the giving end of the equation.

~SH~

[ December 29, 2005, 03:55 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on December 29, 2005, 04:34 AM:
 
You made my point Scott, I think?

Tim I assumed what Scott and Ronnie were talking about was the NEW rising stars in the industry show boating old knowledge to the NEW generation of beginners and taking full credit for what they know. Still not sure, Scott lost me somewhere between Bob Knob and Sam somebody? LOL

Craig has already gone through that stage under similar circumstances so I tried to liken the two situations with my quotes. Because I am laid up with a bad knee and have nothing better to do I will expand on the subject. LOL Better put on a pot of coffee and not the unleaded stuff either! LOL

You said, “When I think of who might be a whore to the sport of trapping, Craig is at the top of my list.”

Well he does go out of his way to give credit to his mentors and teachers. His record speaks for itself. By now he probably has one million trap line miles behind him. He was a founder of the Nebraska Fur Harvesters Association and his other credentials and contributions to trapping are too numerous to list here. If anyone has a right to capitalize on the sport or profession of trapping (not that a right is needed) Craig is probably the one. He makes his living PRIVATELY by trapping and selling lure and instructions. Given his reputation as a coyote trapper and his long list of accomplishments and acquaintances it is probably not by accident that his bate is the best you have ever tried.

I don't know Craig personally, I met him once and he is arrogant but that is not the issue. He gives credit where credit is due. He made mention of all the men that taught him and gave them credit for shaping him into who he is today. He readily admits that a good portion of the students who come to him for instruction come because of who has trained him. Why did Scott see him? Why did Cal? Why did most of the other big number men in the country go to him for instruction? Didn't Marty Senneker come to him despite having a 600 + coyote fur season under his belt? His personality or his ego had nothing to do with it. It is because of what he offers. I doubt very much that if guys of the caliber of Scott, Cal and Marty are going to him he is not the blowhard and liar you assume he is. Scott and I had a lengthy conversation about Craig but in the end he still recommend him to me if I were ever too decided to get into trapping. That tells me something.

With out picking apart everything the man has said or done in the past or what he says his instructors have done (Vern Dorn in particular) we have to allow a little leeway for marketing because everyone is guilty of some degree of embellishment. It is just like people quoting how many “years” of experience they have at calling or trapping coyotes. Years means shit compared to #s if you ask me. You could suck at calling all your life but if you have had a 100+ coyote FUR season and more importantly you can PROVE it you will have me sitting up strait. Years of experience is used far and wide in advertising of all shapes and forms but is of little value unless you know what that person has accomplished in those years.

Now to steer back to the point. Cal said…..

quote:

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I don't think he was refering to the video industry as a whole or the magazine industry, just the new guys that a year or two ago were probably making turkey videos or pornos or something and now all of the sudden they are predator "experts". Where were they 5 years ago? or 10? when predator hunting wasn't the "in" thing. I think that is what Wiley's hackles were up about. I have seen alot of coyote hunting experts in print and on film lately that I really don't think know squat about coyotes, but they can write well or look good on camera, so some camo company hires them and that supposidly MAKES them an expert. It kinda rubs me the wrong way also, but I'll include a disclaimer that as far as I know NONE of them post here.

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quote:

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Let's be honest. It only takes a couple minutes talking to someone to absolutely know if he is blowing smoke up your pipes. Sure he can be repeating truisms and bits and pieces of things he's read or watched on TV and I don't really have any problem with that. The real trouble lies when I see other dumb SOB's starting to believe in a false idol when the experience isn't really there.

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That is exactly true Joe! But it gets harder all the time to figure out who really has experience and who doesn’t. The Internet has so much information and the posts flow like water. Some people’s reputations are based almost completely on what they have sponged off of others. A couple of guys I know of have become true masters of the art of plagiarism. They fashion all the information they have accumulated in a fluent seamless language. I have been on the net for a while now as most of you have so I know you have seen the same people blossom into instant experts. LOL

The funny thing is that it doesn’t really matter. If what they are saying is right then who cares. It does rub me wrong when I see the leg humpers flock to these kinds of people not knowing them for who they truly are.

Maybe this is Scott’s beef? He may see the frauds like I described in other formats plagiarizing true experts in some way shape or form and making money off of it? No one likes a fraud.

It may not be as easy to tell a fraud from the real McCoy as it once was but every poker player has a tell. LOL

History repeats its self.

Today calling is the fad and we are getting the same reaction from the sellers and buyers as we got in the late 70s and early 80s of the fur boom.

This phenomenon is not only in the hunting industry. All that has been said is really a moot point because that is just Capitalism baby! LOL. If there is a market people will try to cash in on it. Bill Gates didn't invent the damn computer. He strong-armed his way into the industry and made a lot of money doing so. You don't see him thanking Apple and IBM for their contributions to his successes or anyone else he stepped on in the process.

Not to get off topic but I just had a revelation!!! I think I know now why Scott is pissed off at the world and doesn’t care what anybody thinks!! NO, it isn't about Byron or anyone else that flattered themselves by believing he was addressing them personally. It is because one of his closest and dearest personal friends has his own TV show now and didn't take him along for the ride. I think the first show airs in January? LOL Just kidding Scott take a pill. LOL

My take on it is that I can't bitch about or be envious of anyone else’s success in this industry because there is no reason why I can't be doing the same thing myself. This is America the land of the free. LOL

I don’t have an ax to grind with any of the new guys out there that have made videos or other products and am proud to call some of them my friends. I hope that history doesn’t see them as “flash in the pans.” because some day I might join the ranks of the prostitutes my self. If you can’t beat em join em right?

Last year I personally shot 100 coyotes in less than 30 consecutive days and was in on a number of additional kills that a couple of partners shot on hunts that I hosted. All of it is documented on PM and still stands. Because of this and other accomplishments and experiences I have had there is probably a market in this game for me also. So far I have handed it out for free. Knowledge is only part of what it takes to be good at killing coyotes but I am not convinced that it is the knowledge that ***** . Most people say they fast forward through the “boring” instructional parts anyway. LOL Go figure.

To me calling info is like advertising puppies in the paper. If you start the add with “to give away to good home” you just lost out. If you sell the same puppies people will buy them because you have put a value on them so they must be worth it right?

OK, that is probably a bad analogy but my point is that the money in the packaging and advertising. For example only, if some one wanted to find out what I think about a particular subject about coyote hunting all they would have to do is search the archives on this sight, PM or the Coyote Gods. Or just ask for that matter. Yet if I wrote a book about it there would be people that would buy it despite the fact that they could get all the info here for free. It is the same with the video crowd. Byron will help anyone who asks. So would Todd or Jay or who ever else for free.

Entertainment, it seams like, is what people want. People like to spend money on stuff they enjoy whether they employ it or not. The net is saturated with people that have spent a small fortune on calls, DVDs, Cammo and decoys. Most of which will only shoot a hand full of coyotes a year.

Grandiloquently speaking, I would hope to assume that the latter at least partially entertains Scott’s original question pertaining to coyote demographics and its like.

I am not worried or concerned about coyote populations being affected by new callers at all. What does bother me is losing ground or being denied access to ground for coyote contest. There is a contest hunt dang near every weekend within an hour and a half of my house through the winter months it seams. The second thing that annoys me is the increased caller keeping the coyotes tuned up. I really think that all the new wave of e-callers has done has allowed callers to educate coyotes at a higher rate and keep them that way.

Yes, I do believe that coyotes can be educated or “conditioned” to calls of any kind. Paranoid coyotes stick to there own routine. Yes Jay, they probably do forget but it might take them 6 months to do so. LOL

Well I better go ice my knee again.

Good hunting.

Q,
 

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Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on December 29, 2005, 04:38 AM:
 
Wow. Now I finally understand where that "Pampas Ass" thing came from.

Scott, you are a piece of work.

'nuff said.
 

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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on December 29, 2005, 05:16 AM:
 
Q,

You bring up some good points. Especially about the killing part, LOL!. Thats a [Gray] area fur me @ times
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on December 29, 2005, 05:32 AM:
 
Randy: "Scott, you are a piece of work."

Randy for some strange reason you still seem to think I should care what your opinion of me is or that other's need to know what your opinion of me is. Again, I don't care what your opinion of me is and I doubt anyone else does either so I hope you can get over it!

If you are the "less experienced" coyote caller selling the knowledge of the "more experienced" coyote caller for your own financial gain and notoriety without giving credit to those who have taught you out of personal respect for them, then you are a prostitute. If you are not in this category, why would you be concerned about my opinion particularly after suggesting that you didn't care what my opinion was? LOL! Take a position and stick with it Randy. Nuff said?

Same goes for Byron South.

Let your consciences be your guides but I'm not apologizing for anything I have stated or my reasoning behind it.

You are right about one thing Randy, I don't have the best tact and I'm not a people person but I don't really care either. My priorities lie within my constant self improvement to be a better coyote hunter/trapper.

Leonard gave me the benefit of the doubt and asked what I meant while you run off on an insecurity tangent. That says a lot about each of you.

What's more important Randy, what I meant or what you think I meant?

Joe F: "Wiley/Scott, go back to your original unqualified statement #2 in your original post and ask yourself why ANY person who had ever made a video would be offended.
Your subsequent posts have qualified that some, but the opening shot was there. Gerald, Byron, or anybody that has made a video could look at that and take offense.
As a casual observer with no dog in this fight it reads that anyone who ever made a video is a prostitute. Period. It's there in black and white.
You're really not setting on the higher ground that you'd like to claim now.
Blame it on the fragileness of the medium, that may not be what you meant, but it is there."

Fair enough Joe! Since you don't have a dog in this fight and can look at the entire issue objectively, allow me to rephrase my original statement to better explain exactly what I meant.

2. Exposure to coyote calling information via video and CD (prostitution of the sport).

Better wording would have been:

2. Exposure to coyote calling information via video and CD which would includes videos and CD's by inexperienced "fast buck artists" prostituting the knowledge that was taught to them by more experienced callers for their own notoriety and financial gain.


SH: "A lot of this is also due to the prostitution of coyote calling on videos and CDs."

Better wording would have been:

A lot of this is also due to the prostitution of coyote calling knowledge that was gained from more experienced callers and sold by less experienced callers for their own financial gain and notoriety.

Does that help clarify?

If this wording and my explanations still offend a few fragile egos on this forum then there must be a reason.

I make no apologies for my position and as anyone can plainly see, there is a common understanding amongst the more experienced callers of what has transpired in this fraternity. If this thread helps someone to stop and think about showing a little respect for the knowledge they have gained, then I'll gladly ruffle a few feathers and take the heat for the betterment of this sport.

Q,

I agree with your analogy of CO but I still do not agree with the quote he made for the reasons I mentioned.

Q: "Not to get off topic but I just had a revelation!!! I think I know now why Scott is pissed off at the world and doesn’t care what anybody thinks!! NO, it isn't about Byron or anyone else that flattered themselves by believing he was addressing them personally. It is because one of his closest and dearest personal friends has his own TV show now and didn't take him along for the ride. I think the first show airs in January? LOL Just kidding Scott take a pill. LOL"

Hahaha! Funny guy!

Yeh, me and ESPN TM go waaaaaaaaaay back too don't we? Hey, more power to him. One thing I have to say about TM though is that he felt just uncomfortable enough about prostituting other's hard work and knowledge on video that he felt an obligation to give them the credit. Still didn't sit well with the men who taught him because TM didn't have the experience to back the techniques he was selling.

Like I said Q, if I wanted to go down the commercialization road I had many chances. Someday I may sell a book or do another video with someone that gives me editing privelages but it will be when the men I teach will not be competing against the men who taught me.

You are right about experience too. Vic and I discussed that very issue. If you've called coyotes for 35 years and haven't improved much from when you started, that 35 years means nothing. If you only went out once or twice a year in 35 years, that doesn't tell you anything either.

In the same token, numbers are only relevant if you understand the availability of numbers from one area to the next. Sheep production areas are not known for large coyote populations.

I'll take a man who can kill "the coyote" over a man who kills "a coyote" any day.

~SH~

[ December 29, 2005, 06:02 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on December 29, 2005, 05:47 AM:
 
Byron,

If your coffee cup is missing, go look at Q's house. I think he's been drinking out of it.

Quinton,

Like I said, I hope I am wrong about Craig. But that was my first impression of him, and I've never had any reason to change it. The first few years that I was hearing of him, he sounded like the Mohamed Ali of the trapping world. I never did like Ali due to his mouth either.

I won't deny he does a lot of good for trapping associations. He gives a lot back to the industry. But something about him just rubs me wrong, and I can't help but feel that he got where he is today by spending someone else's money.

[ December 29, 2005, 05:53 AM: Message edited by: Tim Behle ]
 

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Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on December 29, 2005, 06:28 AM:
 
This just in!! Rob somebody Mitch Huggins and son Skyler Huggins shot 13 coyotes by 1:00!!!

Mitch please tell!

Good hunting.

Q,
 

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Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on December 29, 2005, 06:35 AM:
 
Scott,

You said: What's more important Randy, what I meant or what you think I meant?

And then you later went on to say: Fair enough Joe! Since you don't have a dog in this fight and can look at the entire issue objectively, allow me to rephrase my original statement to better explain exactly what I meant . Better wording would have been: 2. Exposure to coyote calling information via video and CD which would includes videos and CD's by inexperienced "fast buck artists" prostituting the knowledge that was taught to them by more experienced callers for their own notoriety and financial gain.

See? Why in the hell didn't you say so in the first place? You spew forth a bunch of antagonistic garbage apparently meant to stir shit and then when you are confronted you backpeddle and "clarify" yourself to come off as less confrontational.

you obviously feel that some didn't give YOU credit that you thought was due. Get over it and move on. If, as you say, all you care about is becoming a better coyote hunter, then all you have to do get out and hunt, buy a few videos to help you learn a tip or two and enjoy. Life's too short to harbor such a bad attitude.

(Oh, yeah, I know you don't care what my opinion is so I assume you'll not even respond back to this post.)

[ December 29, 2005, 06:46 AM: Message edited by: Randy Buker ]
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on December 29, 2005, 07:03 AM:
 
THIS JUST IN!!!!
Mitch and Skyler attempted to tell but their anemic post was inundated by a cyber tsunami when Q removed his finger from the dike.
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on December 29, 2005, 07:11 AM:
 
Higgins: "Hello?"
Huber: "--------"
Higgins: "Coyotes are members of the canine family."
Huber: "Who told you that nonsense?"
Higgins: "I read a book once."
Huber: "Reading books will make you go blind and grow hair on your palms."
Higgins: "I can still see well enough to shave my palms."
Huber: "-------"
Higgins: "Hello?"
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on December 29, 2005, 07:24 AM:
 
RB: "See? Why in the hell didn't you say so in the first place? You spew forth a bunch of antagonistic garbage apparently meant to stir shit and then when you are confronted you backpeddle and "clarify" yourself to come off as less confrontational."

Why the hell didn't you ask what I meant instead of assuming in the first place?

I never backpeddled, I simply clarified my position which I did the minute I was asked and saw the reactions from the fragile egos on the forum.

Leonard asked what I meant and you amd Bryon assumed and run off on your insecurity tangents typical of someone with a guilty conscience.

You obviously have a guilt complex here that you'll have to deal with Randy. Perhaps 75 minutes of your next 80 minute coyote calling video can be donated to your own therapy.

RB: "...you obviously feel that some didn't give YOU credit that you thought was due."

There you go assuming again. You obviously have a short memory too. I know what I know, I don't need credit for it. I simply detest "fast buck artists" that use other people for their own personal gain.

This world is full of givers and takers, what are you Randy?

Hope you find a way to deal with your guilty conscience.

~SH~

[ December 29, 2005, 07:39 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on December 29, 2005, 07:33 AM:
 
Hmmmm, for someone who doesn't care what I think, you sure respond back to my notes.

You said: you assumed and run off on an insecurity tangent typical of someone with a guilty conscience

And, without assuming, how in the world did you come up with my being either insecure or guilty?

My biggest problem I've had with this entire discussion is that you come off as some holier-than-thou jerk. I'll not be talked down to by you or anyone else without defending myself. Perhaps instead of not caring what your people skills are like, you should work to develop them just a bit so you don't come off as such a jerk.

Then maybe people would be more willing to listen to what you say. Of course you don't care what people think anyway. (But then I have to wonder why you made the initial post in the first place and why you keep responding back here.) What a hypocrite!!

PS. I've beaten this dead horse all I intend to. You may have the last word. Give it your best shot.

[ December 29, 2005, 07:36 AM: Message edited by: Randy Buker ]
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on December 29, 2005, 07:48 AM:
 
RB: "Hmmmm, for someone who doesn't care what I think, you sure respond back to my notes."

I don't care what you think of me but I do care about the clarity of the issue I'm discussing. Don't confuse the two.

RB: "And, without assuming, how in the world did you come up with my being either insecure or guilty?"

That's obvious, because you didn't even bother to ask what I meant. You simply assumed I was talking about you for some crazy reason. If it wasn't insecurity or a guilty conscience, what was it?

RB: "My biggest problem I've had with this entire discussion is that you come off as some holier-than-thou jerk."

My biggest problem I've had with this entire discussion is that you come off as some insecure thumbsucker who thinks I was talking about you specifically.

I take it that you didn't notice you and Bryon were the only ones who took my comments as personal as you did which bodes the question why?

RB: "Perhaps instead of not caring what your people skills are like, you should work to develop them just a bit so you don't come off as such a jerk."

Perhaps instead of running off on an insecurity tangent you should ask someone what they meant instead of assuming.

RB: "I have to wonder why you made the initial post in the first place......"

You still haven't figured it out yet?

No wonder!

~SH~

[ December 29, 2005, 07:53 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on December 29, 2005, 08:02 AM:
 
Ok, it's agreed.

You are a holier-than-thou hypocritical jerk and I'll be an insecure thumbsucker.

Have a nice day.

[ December 29, 2005, 08:02 AM: Message edited by: Randy Buker ]
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on December 29, 2005, 09:07 AM:
 
RB: "You are a holier-than-thou hypocritical jerk and I'll be an insecure thumbsucker."

Well why the hell didn't you just say so in the first place? LOL!

Actually, you still don't have it right but you're getting closer.

You "ASSUME" I am a holier-than-thou hypocritical jerk BECAUSE you've proven yourself to be a hypocritical insecure thumsucker. LOL!

As you pointed out previously your action created a reaction when my original comment was not intended for you unless you are an inexperienced caller who is selling more experienced caller's knowledge for personal gain and notoriety. Have I mentioned that before? LOL!

Why are you hypocritical now you may wonder? Because you said you were done beating this dead horse and you're obviously not. WHOP WHOP! You fibbed! See what happens when you don't tell the truth?

I don't see where you get the "hypocritical" part from anything I have said because I'm not an inexperienced coyote caller who is prostituting an experienced caller's knowledge and hard work for my own personal gain and notoriety. Did I mention that before? That shoe doesn't fit.

I can see where you get the "holier-than-thou" jerk part from because "I STEPT ON YO TOES" when you misunderstood my original statement. That's ok Randy! Everyone makes mistakes. LOL! "Holier-than-thou hypocritical jerk it is".

Ok, now you can have a nice day AFTER you unwind your panties. LOL!

~SH~
 

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Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on December 29, 2005, 09:12 AM:
 
Ok, consider them unwound. Now I can have a nice day.
 

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Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on December 29, 2005, 09:37 AM:
 
In reading this thread a few words come to mind. Rude, arrogant, high and mighty, egotistical, paranoid, envious, insecure, smart assed, narrow minded, poor attitude, bitter, selfish, hypocritical, but most of all manipulative.

Scott,

I accept your apology for rudely insulting my profession. It takes a big man to admit he wrongly accused an entire industry for the antics and deceptive practices of a few. Hopefully you have learned to be more specific when you cast your accusations.

Byron

Edited because I left hypocritical out.

[ December 29, 2005, 09:53 AM: Message edited by: Byron South ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 29, 2005, 10:14 AM:
 
I was not an inexperienced caller when I drove to South Dakota a few years back and spent some time in the field with Scott Huber. Howling for coyotes wasn't really new to me either. Uncle Jay Nistetter can tell you about a coyote or two that came to my howls, whines and ki-yi's down in Arizona before I even met Scott Huber. What I did gain from Scott was more confidence in the art of howling for coyotes, and I also picked up on a new trick or two.

Scott is the one who got me started in howling with my own vocal chords, and using pup squeals more. I have never mentioned this in my instruction cassettes or in my howling for coyotes thread on another board. I mention these things now because Scott deserves credit for what he has done for me. Thank you Scott, I appreciate all of the help you have given me over the past few years. I would also like to thank Cal Taylor for helping me develop a small howler which is now known as the Taylor Special.
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on December 29, 2005, 10:39 AM:
 
BS: "In reading this thread a few words come to mind. Rude, arrogant, high and mighty, egotistical, paranoid, envious, insecure, smart assed, narrow minded, poor attitude, bitter, selfish, hypocritical, but most of all manipulative."

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

That's the exact response I would expect from someone with a guilty conscience from selling someone else's hard work and knowledge. I'll take that little rant as proof of making my point.

I thought you said you had nothing else to say to me? Changed your mind huh?

BS: "I accept your apology for rudely insulting my profession. It takes a big man to admit he wrongly accused an entire industry for the antics and deceptive practices of a few. Hopefully you have learned to be more specific when you cast your accusations."

You must have me mistaken for the last person you misunderstood Byron. I have nothing to apologize for. I admit only to having not picked better wording with my original statement that was more condusive to insecure callers such as yourself with an apparent guilty conscience.

You're the only one that knows whether or not you are an inexperienced caller who has prostituted the knowledge, that may have been given to you in confidentiality, from more experienced callers for your own financial gain and notoriety.

If that description fits you then you are a prostitute and a parasite to this industry and I have nothing to apologize for. If that description fits you I'll gladly acccept any adjectives you have to give me in response because what I said needs to be said. If that description fits you.

There's a lot of experienced callers that feel the same way I do on the subject and I'll gladly take the heat for them.

BTW, as Varmit Hunter has pointed out, there is a difference between a "look at me" and a "look at this" video.

~SH~

[ December 29, 2005, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on December 29, 2005, 10:46 AM:
 
Rich,

Thank you and you are more than welcome. I learned from you as well and enjoyed your company. What started out as a cyberspat between us on what improvements need to be made to manufactured howlers ended up being a mission to improve howlers. We both moved howlers a step forward based on our discussions. The respect is mutual. Send me a personal email. I need to tell you about my findings since then.

~SH~

[ December 29, 2005, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on December 29, 2005, 11:16 AM:
 
Can't all you Ho's just get along? You are ALL correct. ('cept for one).

I can’t think of ever having divulged predator calling techniques in confidentiality and have been writing for only a very short time and only because I was asked. Still, it’s flattering that others out there may be interested in what you might have to say. The perk is that you get paid cash money for it? The wife quit listening to my stories long ago and could probably write a better article about predators than I could.

I know lots of guys without mentors who have been calling on their own and have discovered the same basic truths about calling that I have. After you figure out what works and what doesn’t, the good’ns seem to spy the same calling spots as you do. Face the same way and probably spend about the same amount of time calling before they end the stand, all because of the way the set-up appeared to them. When I started calling there weren’t teachers to speak of and I think it’s a wonderful thing that the new callers have such a vast mountain of information to pour over. Yeah, some of it is tripe, but not most.

I did make an effort to portray the content of my video n a slightly different manor than others. I did think about making a profit. I did at least until I found out that re-sellers wanted HUGE friggin discounts.

The book was different altogether. Al and I approached that venture knowing we would lose $$ on it, but it was something we just wanted to do.

If I can sell information about things I know a little about… Why Not? Call me a Ho if you want, but this old Ho has a loaf of bread because of it. (Well actually cigarettes and beer in my case).

Cal... You were right. After a couple inexplicable delays, my new Ho-deo will ship on the 10th. Hopefully nothing dastardly will happen to the Ho-PS Delivery Truck.

BTW I'm having a few Ho's over this coming week for those interested. Some Ho's will be driving in and some flying in. We'll be attending a Ho Convention up in Globe, Arizony and sould be THE place to be for all the Voyeurs out there.

AND YES Leonard, I am upset about the loss of my sheep. Sheep rustling is a crime. I've suffered severe business losses from some prominent Texicans because of it.

Happy Hunting… EP
 

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Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on December 29, 2005, 11:43 AM:
 
" Paranoia strikes deep. Into you're heart it will creep". Buffalo Springfield 1967.
 

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Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on December 29, 2005, 11:46 AM:
 
I can see it now. There'll be a big push to get legislation to copyright all our ideas so no one can use them except the one who actually came up with the idea.

Let's see, calling downwind is taken, crosswind is taken and upwind is taken. What's left for me?

I'll call my congressman now!
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 29, 2005, 12:16 PM:
 
I probably would be sued if I tried to copywrite "Magic Mist"? Some enterprising youngster has probably beat me to it? Which remeinds me. Byron? Are you missing a stainless coffee cup? I asked everybody, who left it in the back seat of my truck, then (recently) spent 30 minutes decontaminating it, but if you want it, give me an address.

This has been quite a roller coaster ride, thus far. Hell, just those posts by Randy claiming it will be his last, would fill quite a thread, by itself/themselves, whatever?

Good hunting. LB

PS ....we don't get French Benefits?
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 29, 2005, 12:17 PM:
 
Randy Buker,
How about "Calling in the snow banks of Minnesota"?
 

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Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on December 29, 2005, 12:23 PM:
 
Jay, I liked what you had to say about the mentor/ idolless learning what it takes.

I had an idol once, then the guy drowned in his own puke. Ain't cared for em much since.
 

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Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on December 29, 2005, 12:25 PM:
 
Rich,

Nope, I'm pretty sure that one has been done before I came onto the scene... Bummer....

Leonard,

I'm glad I can entertain you so easily. See, I'm good for something!

Like I said, I won't let anyone talk down to me without defending myself. Scott wants to keep it up, so will I. However, I'll freely admit to it being beating a dead horse. But, sometimes that old nag (the dead horse, not Scott) needs an extra lick or two.
 

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Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on December 29, 2005, 12:39 PM:
 
Sorry to hear it Joe. I don't know if I ever idolized anyone. Had great respect and was enamored by a several inspite of some character flaws. Wished I could have grown up somewhat simiar to a couple. Up until recently, I kinda wanted to be like Higgins, but he's near dead right now and I don't wanna get anywhere near him.
 

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Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on December 29, 2005, 01:06 PM:
 
Rich Higgins,

I thought about what you said about Scott doing this for thrills and amsement. I decided to try it as well. Problem with people is you can usually provoke them into responding in a predictable manner. Scott did this with me in his initial post. I respondsed not from guilt but because of his rude assertions. He then manipulated it to fit a certain agenda. Then tried to justify it by other means. It was a twisty road for sure and he had me and others on a string. Out of curiosity I did the same to him and got a very predictable response. I didn't enjoy it mostly because it was to easy and very predictable. I'm a little smarter now and will be tougher to call in the future.

Gerald must be the tough old alpha, as he didn't fall for the BS method. I know your out there Gerald. I salute you.

No guilt here I just don't like rude, condesending, arrogant behavior and said so. I'm not as gifted as some here in my writing style and grammer. I was raised to respect people and to give them the benefit of the doubt, and not to judge a book by it's cover. I do my best to practice this in my every day life and business. Sure there are rats amoung us, but they are quickly discovered and exposed for who they are. There are also those amoung us that are good in there choosen field but let it go to their head. They get boastful and even bitter sometimes. I hope like hell I never display either foul trait.

My words and thoughts on this post were bent and manipulated in ways that made me act in ways that is out of character for me. I let myself get caught up in this worthless garbage for no useful purpose. I won't let it happen again.

JoeF,

You are a wise man.

Byron
 

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Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on December 29, 2005, 01:13 PM:
 

quote:

---

I'm a little smarter now and will be tougher to call in the future.

---

Sounds like what a coyote would say after being called in and a 60 grain vmax from an AR zinged over his head???

later,
scruffy
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on December 29, 2005, 02:08 PM:
 
BS: "He then manipulated it to fit a certain agenda. Then tried to justify it by other means. It was a twisty road for sure and he had me and others on a string."

BS: "My words and thoughts on this post were bent and manipulated in ways that made me act in ways that is out of character for me."

Talk is cheap Byron!

Why don't you show everyone where your words and thoughts were manipulated. The posts are all still there. You really think you can change the meaning of your statements by suggesting that they were manipulated? Give me a break!

You're going to have to do better than that.

You overreacted and now you're pissing on yourself trying to justify it.

~SH~
 

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Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on December 29, 2005, 02:17 PM:
 
Isn't it guys like these that become predator hunters, try it a few times and quit?

The guy that started this thread was the site administrator, about killing coyotes with your bare hands:
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=263201

Talk about egos... WOW!!!! They're the ultimate predators.

later,
scruffy
 

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Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on December 29, 2005, 02:42 PM:
 
Byron, not at all. I kinda out "Scotted" Scott on a recent issue here where I threw out a comment here in black and white that was what "I" meant, but didn't mean what I wanted to say.....as if that makes any sense. I let it lie - it didn't hurt anyone but me. Kinda sensitive to the issue...

I am also interested because of what you mentioned about the union mentality. I have a related story (and agree with what you said)concerning ho's and sluts that fits this to the tee. No time for it now, I'm supposed to be ho'ing for teh man, not jacking around on the internet.

I can see the fodder for about 50 seperate threads in this post. Intresting responses, etc...
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on December 29, 2005, 02:51 PM:
 
RB: "I can see it now. There'll be a big push to get legislation to copyright all our ideas so no one can use them except the one who actually came up with the idea.

Let's see, calling downwind is taken, crosswind is taken and upwind is taken. What's left for me?"

So now we try to discredit the issue with a political spin job? Legislating coyote calling ideas?? Yeh, that's really what this was about wasn't it Randy? Another reach!

If you have the experience and miles to back what you are teaching, if you have shown respect to those who have taught you, and if you aren't into "look at me" showboating, this thread is not aimed at you so why have you taken it so personally?

Even after a complete explanation you're still struggling with this and I have to wonder why? If it's not a guilty conscience, what is it Randy?

This was never about my need to be stroked. That was a spin job. If I lacked for self confidence do you honestly think I'd bring up such a touchy subject in the company of such fragile egos? That was another spin job. Misrepresentation of what has been stated. Yet another spin job. The Clinton administration had nothing on some of you guys.

The issue is clear! There's only a handful that are still trying to spin it. One can only guess why.

~SH~
 

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Posted by Todd Woodall (Member # 439) on December 29, 2005, 03:44 PM:
 
Wiley E,

I am done with your initial conversation, but I will add my thoughts on what has happened here.

It has been stated that you where basically trolling to get a response that you knew would come. Some even bragged on you about it. Wow, that makes you such a great guy for trying to start a fight for no good reason. If it was true that you didnt care what anyone else thought about you then why even post it to begin with. I am sure your buddies are calling to pat you on the back, but it didnt impress anyone but you and your buddies.

There have been alot of other guys kicked off of websites for "trolling" and making "baited" comments. I am sure this would not have been tolerated if you didnt know certian people. It is nice to see you use your pull in such positive ways.

Leonard, you run a great site and I like your "it will all work itself out" policy, but in some instances (like this one) it degrades the group as a whole. This post has said nothing new in the last 3 pages, just a bunch of babling and bickering. I was apart of it myself, and wish I would have just let it go. I did for awhile but certian comments and constant jabbing at the subject drew me in. There is a reason that "trolling" is viewed as a negative thing, because it is just that "NEGATIVE". I hate to see this type of thing blow up into such a big deal. Because thats exactly what he wanted. This post had no real meaning from the get go. It was portrayed as such, but in recent posts the real reason came out, to troll. I just dont see the meaning of it, other than to cause a big stink.

I just feel that this issue has drug on long enough.

Todd

[ December 29, 2005, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: Todd Woodall ]
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on December 29, 2005, 04:29 PM:
 
Don't speculate on motive Todd. You assume because someone claimed I was simply trolling for a reaction that this is the case.

The intent of this topic is obvious to anyone with any common sense and an objective mind and that is to make the inexperienced callers amongst us think a little before they take someone else's hard earned knowledge, claim it as their own, and sell it for their own financial gain and notoriety on a "look at me" video. If that offends you, too damn bad. It's obvious that some of the more experienced callers felt the same way.

There is no contradiction between my not caring what some of the fragile egos think of me and why I posted it. Caring about this issue and how it might offend someone is two seperate issues. If you can't understand that it's no wonder why you missed the intent.

If you want a handholding forum where everyone agrees with your commercialization philosophies and never questions it I suggest you start one. Most everyone I talked to understands the concern with the issue of selling someone else's knowledge with the exception of a handful who obviously have guilty consciences.

Until I'm banned from this site I'll say what's on my mind. If you don't like it, don't read it.

Todd: "I just feel that this issue has drug on long enough."

Quick, someone dial 911. Todd is being forced to read this thread against his will.

If you don't like it DON'T READ IT. Nobody has a gun to your head or do they?

~SH~

[ December 29, 2005, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on December 29, 2005, 04:33 PM:
 
Did somebody call me a prostitute?

[ December 29, 2005, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on December 29, 2005, 04:39 PM:
 
GW: "Did somebody call me a prostitute?"

Not hardly Gerald but that's certainly been the political spin by the fragile egos.

Everyone knows that you are experienced and selling your own product not inexperienced and selling someone else's hard earned knowledge for your own financial gain or notoriety.

~SH~
 

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Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on December 29, 2005, 04:50 PM:
 
I think it was Byron.

Go figure...I take a struggling video maker with me to the Huntmasters campout to save him some gas and even let him eat some of my crackers on the way out. Then he has the gaul to call me a prostitute.

Hey Scott, remember the time we met....where was it....the Peoria NTA maybe or was it at one of the Kansas meets. I think I demonstrated our howler for you. If I am not wrong, I think it was when it still had the old blue funnel. I figured you did not think much of my ability to blow it since you did not say anything afterwards other than offering to take me out howling with you. I wish I had taken you up on that one because I still can't howl very good. Can I still come out? I promise I will not put out a video on Howling after I visit with you.

[ December 29, 2005, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]
 

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Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on December 29, 2005, 04:53 PM:
 
Scott said: So now we try to discredit the issue with a political spin job? Legislating coyote calling ideas?? Yeh, that's really what this was about wasn't it Randy? Another reach!

Geeezzz. It was said in JEST! You have no sense of humor either, do you?

Isn't it funny how everyone on here is ASSUMING this or that? Isn't funny how this thread has been kept alive by your ego?

For some reason you feel everyone who responds is guilty. Maybe in your eyes we are. Who cares? So, don't buy our videos. That'll teach us.
 

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Posted by Norm (Member # 240) on December 29, 2005, 05:16 PM:
 
Q, By the time I got through your note, I had gone through one pot of coffee, then had to get another to get to all the subsequent posts.

What I find a bit ironic by these hundreds of posts, is that we all gain from someone else's knowledge. That is how we learn. We apply the knowledge gained from others, combine it with our own experiences, all with the intent of bettering ourselves in our chosen careers or passions.

In the end, it doesn't matter how experienced we are or aren't, if we choose a method of communication to share that knowledge, someone will be interested in acquiring it. Books, Articles, Seminars, Campfires, DVD's, 8-tracks.

I am personally thankful for all that have ever taken the time to write words or put together a video/DVD as it is easier to put my hands on these items to gain additional knowledge and insights.

Is any of it new? not really, it is information that has been passed down for generations only presented a bit differently. Take the Bible for example. One Word, One Truth; Many variations due to different interpretations and presentments.

So to all you taking your valuable time to make video's and share information, continue doing it. I guess I am one "john" that will continue to pay for your services and I don't care if your are a virgin or know every trick in the book.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 29, 2005, 05:34 PM:
 
Todd, maybe my policy is no better than other places, can't say? I think you are an honorable guy, so is Jeff, if you ever had a doubt about my opinion.

I will suggest that there is a strong undercurrent here, that is not visible to the casual observer.

Getting banned from Huntmasters is difficult, but not impossible. Scott has not even come close to the threshold, and I actually understand his point of view. Some people can build on a mentor, others are just a fake, taking complete concepts and portraying them as original ideas. Done in a way to enhance their stature, like claiming thirty years of experience.

I know this happens, and I also know some of the people that do it, driven by ambition. Sharing predator hunting knowledge and secrets with the masses is not the motivation; they only want fame and fortune.

Those that have special knowledge, my advice: be careful of sharing that knowledge with these people, or you may wind up feeling betrayed by friendship. No fame, no fortune, and no credit, either.

I think that is what Scott is trying to say, although exactly who he is talking about, I haven't a clue. But, I'm dying to find out. No, these "troll" posts do not scare me or offend me, at all. There are lessons to be learned, truths to be revealed, surprising and interesting developments. Cheap entertainment.

Good hunting. LB

[ December 29, 2005, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on December 29, 2005, 05:37 PM:
 
Gerald, I honestly don't remember you demonstrating your blue howler for me and don't be offended because my memory is not what it once was.

I started using coyote vocalizations in the early 80's when Bill Austin was selling his howlers. I remember meeting and visiting with you but I can't remember which convention it was. That's been a lot of trapping conventions ago.

I think we were both supposed to be on a T&PC coyote coyote calling video once or maybe we both were. I don't even have a copy of it anymore. All I can remember is calling up a pair of coyotes and watching them shy which took me completely off guard forcing me to take a running shot which I missed. GK was sitting up with his camera and tripod on a bare hill and skylined to boot and I hadn't noticed. I shot the next coyote before he had a chance to see GK.

I am quite sure I have a blue howler stashed away some where and I'm sure it would work just fine.

Interesting how you mentioned thinking that I was not very impressed with your howl. Gerald you have been around this game long enough to know that what I think of a howl is really irrelevant. It's what the coyotes think of that howl that matters. I've heard some of the most pathetic howls from coyotes and I have heard some of the most pathetic howls from callers call in coyotes just the same as a picture perfect howl to my way of thinking.

Sure, come on up sometime. I'm sure we could learn a lot from eachother. In another 6 months I should be moved into my new house and have a room for ya. For as long as we have both been around the trapping/calling circles I would thoroughly enjoy the visit.

RB: "Isn't it funny how everyone on here is ASSUMING this or that? Isn't funny how this thread has been kept alive by your ego?"

Isn't funny how you're still fretting over this when you've already "supposedly" accepted and understood my explanation?

You just can't spin it to your satisfaction can you?

RB: "For some reason you feel everyone who responds is guilty."

You know that's a lie.

~SH~
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on December 29, 2005, 05:42 PM:
 
Thanks Leonard! I'm glad you can see past the smoke.

You still possess the same wisdom you portrayed on the old Posse Country forum when we were rattling sabors over the government funded ADC program. I still miss AzWill's wit. He was one funny guy.

~SH~
 

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Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on December 29, 2005, 05:56 PM:
 
Scott,

I'm satisfied with my spin and amazed by yours.
 

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Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on December 29, 2005, 06:08 PM:
 
Scott, there are a lot of issues that trouble me about this post. Being a Republican in good standing the first I have to ask is if I've been paying your salary the last couple of days???
 

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Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on December 29, 2005, 06:49 PM:
 
Gerald,

Them was good crackers.

See ya at the HO-down.

Byron

[ December 29, 2005, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: Byron South ]
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on December 29, 2005, 07:34 PM:
 
Getting banned from here is not easy.

So what if someone else (like me maybe) couldn't get away with a similar thread (on here or any other board)?
You do have to consider the source, in a situation like this.

Scott typically throws a topic out there, and it lands about like this one.
Doesn't make Scott a bad guy, or his topics bad topics.
I myself have a lot to think about, the call making world mirrors the video making/sharing of information world in a lot of ways.

I respect and admire those who helped me develop my skills as a call maker, from which I did make a buck or two.
I have passed on that information, but I have always acknowledged my mentors and peers, and never expected anything in return financial or otherwise.
I have more than "given back" (to those who helped and supported me, and to the sport as a whole where I can) and I will continue to do so.

Even if Scott was talking about me, I have nothing to feel guilty for.

Scott,

You didn't mean me, did you? LOL

Krusty

P.S. I have yet to see a video I'd pay a single dime for (but I'd never part with the ones I've recieved as gifts).
There's only one I have watched more than once, and that's only because it's so long (I got sleepy and even had to watch the second half a third time).

P.P.S. I am a classic example of learning from one guy, who may have learned from another guy, without my ever knowing it.
I guess in some way I owe Scott my thanks, for whatever light his conversations with Mr Cronk brought to my own call making.

[ December 29, 2005, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
 

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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on December 29, 2005, 07:37 PM:
 
I vote for Norm
---------------------
Read everything so far, pretty interesting, well some of it. I see & understand, what [Wiley E] is saying.

Personally, I've passed on everything I can remember to anyone who listens or wants to read or follow [my own fodder].

The only thing, I wish to come of any of it. Is for a person to have a better coyote hunt. If a person used this info, in a video or whatever... No big-whoop to me.

My payment or recognition. Come's from, when a person use's my experience to better themselve's. On killing coyotes. Whether I get mentioned, thanked or not. I don't care.

As it, origionally was passed down to me [from my Dad]. Didn't cost me a dime. But many hrs in the field, observing, & asking questions.

Funny thing is I would've & did, put in my own time anyway .

edited; for grammer

[ December 29, 2005, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on December 29, 2005, 08:02 PM:
 
Scott, how are ya? Been a while since I`ve exchanged blows with you on the keyboard, I see you`re always improving your skills on the boards, hopefully you`ve done the same with your math skills.

Never a dull moment, eh.

Don`t worry I`m not gonna go off on a rampage, at least not on my first post. I will however give an opinion from the outside (so to speak) It seems to me & maybe hundreds of other people who stumble through from time to time that you & some of the other "experienced" callers are the ones with a teensy little ego problem.

If you like to help others learn about calling or trapping coyotes it would seem that you SHOULD be pleased about folks picking up a video to learn more about the sport, after all if these ideas were pirated from "experienced professionals" such as yourself then I would say that it would be a damn good video with some damn good advice, but it seems that the real problem is that you guys didn`t get the "fame & fortune" that you so greatly despise about these "showboaters".

It`s rude & inconsiderate of them for sure but maybe the end would justify the means if YOUR ego wasn`t so fragile. If I could pick up some of your knowledge about coyotes I would gladly put up with a "showboater" video host to do so. Why don`t you put YOUR ego on the shelf & make a kick arse video & bless the calling world with your knowledge. I`d buy it.

I always enjoy your threads (in a strange sort of way) very thought provoking indeed.

I think Byron & others were only defending their proffesion, as they should, I would, wouldn`t you?

Norm, You da man, always have been, always will be.
 

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Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on December 29, 2005, 08:33 PM:
 
Yea Scott, we were in the same video now that you mention it. My memory is not so good anymore either. Hey, I guess we ARE Professionals since the name of that one was "Calling with the Professionals". Sure hate that we lost Gordy to the NAHC guys. I am sure he is having fun galavanting all over the globe. If anyone deserves it, its Gordy.

I am going to get to be out with him again the last week in Jan on a writers hunt with HS. I look forward to harrassing him. He hates it when I bring up his band playing days.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 29, 2005, 09:31 PM:
 
JD, welcome to HM
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on December 29, 2005, 09:41 PM:
 
Thank you Leonard, you run a good board here. I`ve dropped by many times in the past few months but I guess it took one of Scotts threads to finally pull me in.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 29, 2005, 10:49 PM:
 
I finally had a chance to look up a "misting" thread on PM. I'm sorry but.... talk about a few confused people! No clue. Especially Byron; wrote a whole list of reasons why misting won't work.

Dude, you are not qualified to tell the public something about which you don't understand.

Also, another gem I read: the reasoning that...."if it worked, everybody would be using it". Hello! Everybody out here IS using it. Out here, we are third generation, Texas is in the dark ages, in comparison.

It's in stuff like this that I understand where Scott Huber is coming from.

Another thread stumbled on over there, while looking for the misting article. Someone asked about red filters, (something like that) and Todd recommended red spray Dykem. Good deal. Excellent informative post......

Of course, nobody in the whole world ever heard of red Dykem for night hunting until I spread the word; since I invented it. Sniff, sniff, nobody knows that it's my technique, used by many, and Boo hoo/no credit! Life is not fair. We pioneers get thrown in the junk pile un-named, uncredited and unknown.

It's tough being a footnote, but even a footnote would be nice, once in a while. <sniff, sniff>

Good hunting. LB

[ December 29, 2005, 11:20 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on December 30, 2005, 04:26 AM:
 
Leonard,

I don't use piss and I don't use dykem on my lights. I may use dykem some day but I promise I'll never use piss.

So, in just in case I do... I want to send out a big THANK YOU!!

Oh, and I also want to thank you for bringing flipper lights to my attention too. You didn't show or tell me what they were but you were so elusive that with some help, was able to track down some picutures so I at least knew what you were talking about. I'll likely never go to the trouble of making one but I've kept those pictures in case I do. But, THANK YOU.

Scott, I should also probably thank you. You've been good entertainment over the years. Your antagonistic and egomaniacal (sp) ways have humored me on many occasions. If I think back to what I may have learned from you about predator hunting, I realize that it's nothing. It seems that the only thing you come on the board here for is to stir the pot. Leonard and others here share information. You... stir....stir.....stir.
 

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Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on December 30, 2005, 06:27 AM:
 
Dang Leonard,

Sorry I don't agree with you. You miss read my post. I listed my take on the negatives and the positives of misting. I simply came to the conclusion the positives didn't outweigh the negatives.
This is quoted from my first response to that thread in question.

"I'm not arguing the results others have had with misting just offering the approach and methods I use and how they pertain to the subject. If misting works for you then keep doing what your doing. If you have never tried it then you owe it to yourself to try it. Your mileage may vary."

Here's a link to that thread.
http://www.predatormastersforums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=1&Number=52214806&page=3&fpart=1

Now, where's my hat.... there it is, see you guys later.

Byron
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on December 30, 2005, 06:59 AM:
 
JD: "It seems to me & maybe hundreds of other people who stumble through from time to time that you & some of the other "experienced" callers are the ones with a teensy little ego problem."

I can understand how it could appear that way and I fully anticipated that spin when I brought the topic up.

JD: "If you like to help others learn about calling or trapping coyotes it would seem that you SHOULD be pleased about folks picking up a video to learn more about the sport, after all if these ideas were pirated from "experienced professionals" such as yourself then I would say that it would be a damn good video with some damn good advice, but it seems that the real problem is that you guys didn`t get the "fame & fortune" that you so greatly despise about these "showboaters"."

Like I said, I fully expected my not getting the "fame and fortune" to be the popular spin in response to this issue. This issue goes much deeper than that and that's not even true. If I wanted fame and fortune I could have easily went down that road.

The biggest issue with me is the experience behind the information being presented and the lack of respect for those who taught us. I don't have any problems with the videos themselves. As a matter of fact a good friend of mine, MG from Wyoming had some of the first real good coyote calling videos out there and I even furnished the dogs for one of them. I didn't have a big problem with it even though it was teaching ADC methods to the private sector without a lot of explanation for where these methods applied (denning season not fur season) which some guys do have a problem with. This man had the miles behind him to present good information. That was the difference.

Perhaps I can give you a more specific example of exactly what I'm talking about. I've been in the trapping and calling circles since the early 70's. I have seen trappers with a tremendous amount of experience like John Smith (fictional)give of their experience willingly to teach others to trap. Enter the "fast buck artist". The next thing I see is John Smith's methods that were presented at demos at trapping conventions being sold on a video by the "fast buck artist" WITH THE INCORRECT APPLICATION OF THE INFORMATION. The "fast buck artist" wasn't interested in teaching about trapping, he was interested in producing a "look at me" video for a quick buck and notoriety. Worse yet, he never bothered to give credit to the man that taught him. He's not even around anymore but I have to wonder how many young trappers this phony misled before everyone had him figured out.

Now does that look like my ego problem Jason?

Is it my ego problem that the respect was not given to the real teacher?

This issue is not just about selling someone else's hard work and knowledge without giving them recognition, this is about the hyper "fast buck artists" who doesn't have the experience to even understand the plagerized knowledge they are trying to teach others".

They are in it for the buck and they are in it for the fame. I have actually seen guys give coyote trapping demos that hadn't caught 20 coyotes. Is that my ego problem?

This issue goes way beyond an experienced caller or trapper not getting recognition for the people he taught, this is about respect and it's about having enough experience to understand what you are teaching.

Worse yet, in their quest for originality, these hyper "look at me" "flash in the pan" types will try to come up with some original thought or original idea that is counter productive to what they are actually teaching. It's amazing! For example, by placing a call lure away from their set on a fence post, they would actually pull the intended fox or coyote away from their set but they were more interested in coming up with an original idea. It's quite pathetic.

The ego isn't on the side of the experienced caller or trapper, the ego is on the "look at me" side of this equation that doesn't even have the experience to know where to apply the knowledge he has learned.

Who is helped by bad information?

You're right about one thing Jason, the way to offset bad information from "fast buck artists" is with good information. I haven't done an indepth video yet for three reasons:

1. I don't feel I have enough experience yet to present the level of information that I want to present.

2. I want to wait until most of the men who taught me are no longer calling and trapping out of respect for them.

3. I'm not ready to pass on all of the things I have learned over the years.

Catch 22, I know!

Now for a picture perfect example of a real ego problem.......

RB (in response to me): "If I think back to what I may have learned from you about predator hunting, I realize that it's nothing."

I couldn't add anything to that statement if I tried. I will let that statement define Randy Buker and what an ego problem really is.

In contrast, I can say without hesitation that I have as much coyote calling and trapping knowledge as anyone with the same years of trapping and calling experience and I have yet to meet a caller or trapper that I couldn't learn something from even those with very limited experience and large egos.

You know what's worse than someone with such an ego problem that he doesn't have the decency to acknowledge those with more experience? Actually discrediting them. Unbelievable. I can't even begin to relate.

~SH~

[ December 30, 2005, 07:15 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on December 30, 2005, 07:17 AM:
 
Scott, I'm sick to death of you taking things I say out of context. As you will note, I posted in this thread that you have a very good reputation as a coyote man. When I said: "If I think back to what I may have learned from you about predator hunting, I realize that it's nothing."

Note that I didn't say I couldn't learn anything from you. You have far too many years and coyotes under your belt for me to believe that. What I did say was that you come on here and spew forth a bunch of crap that isn't useful for anyone. You aren't interested in helping people learn to kill more coyotes.

Because I used Leonard as an example before,I'll do so again. Take misting for example. I've seen many times where he's taken the time to explain what it is and how to do it. He's taken heat from a lot of people who poo-poo this method but he still gives of himself. Please, master Scott, direct me to a post where you helped anyone. I must have missed it. You come on here all puffed up and full of yourself and usually just bitch about something. Just like you did in this thread.

You also said:
"I will let that statement define Randy Buker and his level of arrogance. That was perfect Randy!" (Edit: This was the original statment Scott used. He later went in to change things.)

The only way that statment will define Randy Buker will be if those reading it will take it out of context as you did. Too many people here know me and know that your opinion of me is nothing but crap.

You attempt to twist what others say in order to stroke your ego. The thing you don't realize is that you aren't slick or smooth and others see through the crap.

[ December 30, 2005, 07:22 AM: Message edited by: Randy Buker ]
 

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Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on December 30, 2005, 07:34 AM:
 
Before getting on the internet, and pretty much before I came to this site, I only knew the name Blair (from one of his books I've read multiple times), Johnny and Gerald Stewart (have alot of JS calls and one HS video), and of course Randy Anderson and Byron South from seeing their videos on the shelves.

After being here a while I'm picking up the names and the history of the "legends" or "founders" or whatever you'd like to call yourselves ("Pampass know it alls?" ).

Anyway, this thread in particular shows alot of the personalities behind the names of the "legends" and "stars". A little insite into everyone's character.

later,
scruffy

[ December 30, 2005, 07:35 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
 

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Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on December 30, 2005, 07:43 AM:
 
Here is another twist on video production. Most of you have seen the video that Murphy and I put together, and I have done a couple of other little deals for BassPro on TV and Video. One of my quirks is that I so far have refused to do anything instructional in any of these productions. I have never felt that I was in a position to be giving instruction, especially because I knew (as Scott has above mentioned) that some of the people that I have learned from would be watching. And I don't feel that I know enough to be teaching. So everything I have done so far has been just footage of coyotes, or coyotes and dogs. And I thought that would be enough for some really good entertainment. There is another county trapper on the video and he and I discussed stuff like this at great length, that as "younger" guys of the trade we really didn't feel that we should be trying to teach someone to do what we do. So as you have noticed, there are no segments of "how, where, why and when". Now that we are in the process of selling this video and it's circulation is getting out to the masses, it is being recieved fairly well, but I keep getting one complaint. Both from callers and retail companies alike. That there is no "instructions" in it. So is that the point we are at now? Do you have to give instructions in every video? Does everyone expect to recieve some instruction and a secret or two for their 20 bucks? Are we to the point that not many want to just watch some good footage? As another example, and Gerald will have the answer to this, I have watched Operation Predator 1 and 2. Now in my opinion #1 was great. I like Eddie and Gerald both on camera, they are pretty laid back and easy to watch and not too much "in your face". But here comes #2, and to me personally, it was too much the other way. Too much of everything, but coyotes. Now I'm betting that the production style changed because of someone besides Gerald and Ed Wimberly. And to me it was far less enjoyable. Gerald?

Anyway, more food for thought.

[ December 30, 2005, 07:45 AM: Message edited by: Cal Taylor ]
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on December 30, 2005, 07:46 AM:
 
Randy,

How can I take your statement out of context? I posted your exact quote. You said it and now you want to backpeddle. It's bullsh*t! You typed before you thought and now you're pissing on yourself again.

RB: "You aren't interested in helping people learn to kill more coyotes."

Yet another lie!

I suppose that would explain why I volunteered to give a coyote trapping demo for the NTA's fundraising video wouldn't it?

YUP, SHOR NUFF GOT ME THAR RANDY! Another dog that won't hunt.

I'll give you a perfect example Randy of where I presented useful CALLING information on this very site. One of the biggest frustrations in the calling world is the difficulties associated with calling coyotes in the Eastern U.S. as compared to areas in the west. I explained in great detail how to improve calling success in the East by working downwind areas surrounding open meadows with a calling partner or remote caller in the meadow. I explained how coyotes will circle just inside the timberline to the downwind area where the gunner is waiting. I received many thank yous for that bit of information.

You're discrediting tactics simply won't work Randy. You must be running out of dogs by now huh?

For you to say what you said was simply your ego talking and I'm still bewildered as to why? If my description of a fast buck artist and prostitution of the sport doesn't fit you, what are concerned about? Obviously I wasn't talking about you was I? Geez kid, get over it. Get a life!

RB: "What I did say was that you come on here and spew forth a bunch of crap that isn't useful for anyone."

That's your opinion Randy! I happen to feel that the real crap is those who plagerize others knowledge and hard work for their own financial gain and notoriety without having the experience to even know how to properly apply the knowledge they have learned and without giving respect to their teachers. I find that repulsive.

If that description doesn't fit you, then I have no idea why you are making such a big issue of this. In case you didn't notice Randy, I'm not the only one who shares this opinion.

The opinions on this issue will obviously vary depending on whether a person is on the receiving end, on the selling and misrepresenting end, or the giving end of the information.

RB: "You come on here all puffed up and full of yourself and usually just bitch about something. Just like you did in this thread."

Another dog that won't hunt. Anyone can go to the first post and see that I wanted to talk about coyote calling demographics and threw out the word "prostitute" that I later explained in detail only to watch the real "puff ups" come out of the wood work because they obviously have guilty consciences.

Either the description fits you or it doesn't Randy. If it doesn't, then you have nothing to take issue with. If it does, then you got your toes stepped on with good justification as far as I'm concerned. Your persistance with this would suggest that my descritption does fit you.

Like I said, you just can't spin it to your satisfaction can you?

RB: "Too many people here know me and know that your opinion of me is nothing but crap."

Yet another dog that won't hunt.

Randy, I don't know anything about you other than your reaction to this post and my response. To that, I found out a long time ago that you can't judge anyone based on words on a computer screen. I don't have an opinion of YOU, I only have an opinion of what you wrote.

If you say that you haven't learned anything from me, than that says that you either can't read, or you can't learn, or you've never read any of my posts but that's only one thing about you. I don't judge you based on your reaction to my concerns about calling prostitution. I haven't met a coyote caller yet that I didn't like.

RB: "The thing you don't realize is that you aren't slick or smooth and others see through the crap."

Congratulations Randy, you finally got something right about me. I'm not slick or smooth. I'm extremely blunt and to the point and I don't have a lot of tact as you already pointed out.

~SH~

[ December 30, 2005, 07:55 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on December 30, 2005, 08:22 AM:
 
To elaborate on a previous post, I didn't agree with the statement that Q posted from Craig O'Gorman but I have the utmost respect for Craig's knowledge, his work ethic, his methods, and his experience. He is the best coyote trapper I know and I learned a lot from him back in 1983 or 84 that I still apply. I would recommend his instructions to anyone interested in bettering their coyote trapping knowledge. As Q pointed out, Craig does always give credit to those who taught him.

~SH~

[ December 30, 2005, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on December 30, 2005, 09:08 AM:
 
Cal said, "Do you have to give instructions in every video? Does everyone expect to recieve some instruction and a secret or two for their 20 bucks?"

I can only speak for myself here. I liked your latest video just the way it was, Cal. No "filler", just field work. That's what I look for in a video. I want to "see" you putting those tricks and stratigies into action. I don't want to be "told" about it. I want to see it being applied. Talk is cheap if there is no action to back it up.

A $25 video with 10-20 minutes of jaw time doesn't impress me as much as some of Higgin's home grown vids he gave me. No dialog, no showboating, no commercials, and no credits. Just a hard working predator caller letting you look over his shoulder while he does his thing. That's how I learn to improve on what I already know.

Cal, it's only the newbies that need hand holding and classroom instruction. If that is your target audience, then that is what is required. However, if you're selling to experienced hunters, then they'll know a "secret" when they see it. No flashing neon lights needed, lol.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 30, 2005, 10:04 AM:
 
Since I have been slowed down by this surgery, Ronnie Robberson was kind enough to send me twelve pounds of videos belonging to Higgins, which he sent, to help in his recovery. So, I have been getting all knowed up on predator hunting videos, thanks to the thoughtfulness of Rich and Ronnie.

And, of course, I have formed a few opinions. Do I need instruction, or is my interest in entertainment?

At this point, let me just say that the most boring video I watched was by Vern Howey. Nothing but talking head. I suppose it has value for some people, but I don't plug in a video to learn how to hunt predators. If I don't know by now, I never will.

So, I agree with Cal, from the standpoint of the consumer. It's all about entertainment, forget about instruction. For those that need the instruction....let's face it, they never get enough. Some of these guys are hopeless, step by step and they still have not a clue. Okay, a couple of tips, here and there, but are you really going to learn how to hunt coyotes from watchng a video? get real.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on December 30, 2005, 10:04 AM:
 
Me, I don't want any instruction, unless it applies to my area.
I also don't care to watch someone else hunt, so I have little or no use for hunting videos.

Part of it too, for me, is why would I want to put $20 in some guy's pocket, who has (probably) rattled my cage online (whether he meant to or not)?

I'd shoot myself in the head, before I'd watch "Hunting the Night Shift", or own any product produced by PM staff members.

Krusty
 

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Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on December 30, 2005, 10:22 AM:
 
Krusty,

Where shall I send the copy?
 

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Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on December 30, 2005, 10:24 AM:
 
Scott,

You said: How can I take your statement out of context? I posted your exact quote. You said it and now you want to backpeddle. It's bullsh*t! You typed before you thought and now you're pissing on yourself again.

You implied that I said you *couldn't* teach me anything and then called me arrogant. In fact, that's not what I said at all. I simply said I haven't learned anything from you.

No backpeddling and no pissing on myself. Sorry to let you down.

you keep trying to slant what I say and it just not working.

I wouldn't mind hashing things out with you but you are dishonest. You attempt to manipulate what is said. The problem with that is that it's all here for everyone to see. Do you honestly believe others are that simple minded?

[ December 30, 2005, 10:26 AM: Message edited by: Randy Buker ]
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on December 30, 2005, 10:34 AM:
 
Randy, that reply to KK was an instant classic and will put a smile on my face for a long time. Thanks.
 

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Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on December 30, 2005, 10:39 AM:
 
Rich,

I just couldn't help it. I always thought I had treated Krusty fairly and for him to pick me out of a line up because I'm "PM staff" was just plain unfair. So, I'll happily donate a copy.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 30, 2005, 10:48 AM:
 
Randy Buker,
Do you have instructional video on what a coyote looks like, or maybe how to run one down with a bike?
 

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Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on December 30, 2005, 10:51 AM:
 
That instructional video is the next one due out. But, I need to find someone to give credit to before I can publish it.
 

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Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on December 30, 2005, 10:56 AM:
 
Randy.
Cut 2 holes in a paper sack and you can be the
Unknown Predator Hunter

Is it Randy?
Is it Scott?
Is it Leonard?

OH NO!!!!

It's Bill!!!!
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 30, 2005, 11:27 AM:
 
What a swell guy. Just so Krusty can shoot or backpeddle. And, Lance will probably pick up the cost of postage. (just kidding, Cdog)

Krusty would probably feel obligated to watch your video and do a review. That's just the kind of guy he is.

Bur, Randy. I'm still trying to figure out why you have such a burr under your saddle over Wiley's views? You are not hardly a prominent figure in the predator hunting video industry, like Randy Anderson or Byron South. Why such a negative reaction? I assume you have a day job that pays the rent. Byron doesn't even call himself an artist or gate designer any more. He says that he is a video producer, which sounds to me like it's a full time occupation, or Ho, if you buy into Scott's description. I never even heard you claim to be a major player in the predator hunting community, or a movie star. As we all know, hunting red foxes does not make one an authority, no more than being a moderator on PM confers status as an authority. I can't see where you have been singled out for abuse, since (let's be honest) your contribution to the complete body of knowledge is modest, at best. No disrespect, intended. In fact, I think that those people that tend to minimize their stature are generally are most often elevated by their peers. Self promotion has less value. For example, I do not (personally) confer stature based on the number of videos cranked out in the shortest amount of time.

There are many ways of gaining respect. Respect from some segments of the fraternity has more value than some others; such as the less informed newbie. Respect from the hardcore among us is more difficult and takes longer.

And, before you attempt to shoot me down in retaliation, I have always said that I'm just an advanced amateur; one of the boys, nothing more. I am not burdened by a burning desire to become famous or get rich from hunting videos.

But, we are still friends, because I know you can handle my unvarnished and honest opinion.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on December 30, 2005, 11:51 AM:
 
Randy,

Send a copy to Leonard, I am sure he could use a good laugh.

YOU think you treated me fairly, on a personal level or as PM spokesman, I DO NOT.

I did say "rattled my cage (whether he meant to or not)"
I figure you rattled my cage some, and the last thing I want to do is watch you having fun.

I am entitled to my opinion, and to express that opinion by NOT opening my wallet and giving you a dime.

Also I singled out your video, because of all the videos I can think of, it has the LEAST that would apply to my own world. Night hunting here is even more futile than day hunting, and illegal much of the year. And because you, personally, piss me off.
The part about PM staff was an afterthought, and should have been seperated by more than a comma.
They (most of them) pretty much piss me off too.

Can you think of a single reason why I shouldn't be pissed?

I don't like giving MY money to people I don't like.

No backpeddling, correcting grammar.

Mr Higgins,

If nothing else, I am good for a laugh now and then, I got a good chuckle from that one too.

What the heck, now maybe my mailbox will overflow with merchandise.

Besides, my head is so thick the bullet would probably bounce off (I can't believe nobody used that joke?!?).

Mr Cronk,

You cannot run over what is not there. Just like you cannot call it.

I seen a coyote two days ago, a block from my house, headed for the golf course (where else?). I know what they look like, when they are standing in the road.

Do you know what they look like from 15 feet inside the blackberries?
Blackberries.

I got money now, I'll gladly pay air fair for any one of you "know it alls" to come out here and show me how it's done.

I got my fork and knife ready.
Put up, or shut up.

Leonard,

You're right, if I did end up with a copy I'd watch it and give an honest review (trying as hard as I could not to be biased by my own personal interaction with the person supplying me with a product.
Byron asked for my opinion when I saw his videos, and I thought I was quite fair about it.
Didn't shoot myself, my TV, or Byron's reputation.

Krusty

P.S. Leonard,

So I take it you're not going to call me? I gotta go, and call Ronnie, I need to talk to him in person/real time about some stuff... maybe he'll gimme yer ph# lol.

[ December 30, 2005, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
 

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Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on December 30, 2005, 12:04 PM:
 
Yes, Leonard, we are still friends. You've taken your pokes at me and I've poked you right back. I can live with that.

And, you ask a fair question as to why I have a burr under my saddle for Scott's posts.

Scott never called me a prostitute and I don't feel his post was pointing a finger at me personally either.

The thing that fires me up the most about Scott's posts is his broad finger pointing and lack of respect in his dealings with folks. His insinuations about those who "Prostitute" the sport is so much crap.

He said: Prostitute: A person who degrades his talents for money

I saw that as a slam against anyone who makes money from his talent as "degrading" himself. I simply disagreed.

His next reply was full of degrading comments. Such as: Funny Randy, I've never met you either yet you think you know so much about me. You don't know sh*t about me and you just made a fool of yourself by proving it.

I believe in giving folks respect until they have proven they don't deserve it. He has shown me no respect and in turn, I've shown him none. Hell, just as an example of his disrepectful self, he called Byron numerous other names all the way though. The thing that angered me as our discussion went along was his twisting my words and taking them out of context and then denying it. That's low.

Bottom line with Scott is that, as I have said before, I won't let anyone talk down to me without defending myself. Scott has done nothing but talk down to me.

As far as your comments about my not being a prominent figure in the predator hunting video industry... I didn't realize that one had to be a Randy Anderson or a Byron South in order to have an opinion.

You also said "As we all know, hunting red foxes does not make one an authority, no more than being a moderator on PM confers status as an authority." Actually, hunting as many red foxes as I have, studying them as I have and being as effective at hunting them as I have become actually does make me somewhat of an authority on them. Or, if not an authority on hunting them, at least someone who can hand out some useful advice from time to time. And, between my writings and web page and participation on these boards, I very pleased to say that I've helped many people who had questions about fox hunting along the way.

You are right, I've never said I was a major player in the predator hunting world. I've never said I was a movie star. But, I'll make this statement right here and right now.... I'm way cuter than either Randy Anderson or Byron South.

And, I am apparently like you, Leonard. A rather advanced amatuer. One who is pretty darned successful. And, I too have no burning desire for fame or fortune from my videos or writing. But, the checks I cash pay for some pretty nice toys and hunting trips.
 

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Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on December 30, 2005, 12:17 PM:
 
Krusty,

Leonard has already seen the video. I even had a copy of his review/opinions in my files.

I also have copies of your emails to me from your time at PM. In fact, in the same note you wrote me two seperate emails... One to Randy the PM spokesman and one to "Randy the dude." You said then you had no hard feelings and that you knew I was relaying what I had to for my job. I had no idea that I "piss" you off. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, when the whole issue of those flipper lights came to pass on this very board you offered to build me one.

But, you are right in that you are entitled to your opinion. Have at it.

Randy
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on December 30, 2005, 01:28 PM:
 
Leonard writes:

"I finally had a chance to look up a "misting" thread on PM. I'm sorry but.... talk about a few confused people! No clue. Especially Byron; wrote a whole list of reasons why misting won't work.

Dude, you are not qualified to tell the public something about which you don't understand.

Also, another gem I read: the reasoning that...."if it worked, everybody would be using it". Hello! Everybody out here IS using it."

This is exactly what I'm talking about:

1. The inexperience to recognize the value of information from far more experienced callers.

2. The lack of respect for that information and the individual that disclosed it.

Some of you guys are so caught up in your own self promotion that you don't even realize the value of the information you receive from someone like Leonard.

If there is one thing I have found over the years it's that ONLY experience recognizes the true value in knowledge that is based on experience.

Out of all the callers that I have shared information with over the years it was the most experienced and the most successful callers that appreciated and respected the information I gave them the most because they had enough experience of their own to recognize and appreciate the value in what I had taught them.

Now that can be taken two ways. That can be taken in an insecure defensive "puffed up" manner to mean that I needed to be stroked or it can be taken in the manner in which it was intended meaning that it's rewarding to help someone and know that the help you gave them was appreciated.

Let's take Leonard's "misting" as a perfect example. When I first started surfing around on the net I found Posse Country. I already had enough years under my belt at that time to immediately recognize Leonard's experience in his writings. Leonard even had more experience than I did. Leonard and I started out rattling sabors over the issue of publicly funded ADC programs but I never lost respect for his obvious knowledge. In fact, when I was asked by Will Craig to moderate Predator Masters when it first started, I told Will Craig I would only consider it if Leonard would also agree to it because I wanted to be in good company. I didn't feel qualified to be teaching calling techniques to someone of Leonard's caliber without him. Fortunately, Leonard agreed.

Leonard wrote a lot about night calling and competition hunting with impressive takes back when today's rookies were still filling their diapers. Leonard talked about night calling and he talked about misting. At first I thought Leonard was using misting as a cover scent which I didn't agree with because cover scent's are useless. I had done enough research on that issue based on what drug dogs could sort out. Leonard was using misting for a specific reason that I will not divulge now out of respect for Leonard. It made total sense and it still does. I gave Leonard the benefit of the doubt and he explained his reasoning which made perfect sense.

I hope at least some of you realize just how much knowledge is at your fingertips with someone like Leonard and all that is required is a little respect. Some can't even give that.

It's not surprising that someone without enough experience to recognize the value of misting would suggest that it wouldn't work. Haha! That's funny!

Leonard: "For example, I do not (personally) confer stature based on the number of videos cranked out in the shortest amount of time."

Hahaha! This Bud's for you Leonard!

RB: "I wouldn't mind hashing things out with you but you are dishonest."

Talk is cheap Randy.

Show everyone where I said one thing that was dishonest. The posts are all still there. The only editing was done immediately following my review and I certainly can't edit someone else quoting what I've already said can I?

BRING IT RANDY! Give me one example of something that I said that was dishonest.

Watch the diversion folks........

RB: "The thing that angered me as our discussion went along was his twisting my words and taking them out of context and then denying it. That's low."

That's bullsh*t is what it is.

Show me one example where I twisted your words or took them out of context? JUST ONE!

BRING IT RANDY!

Watch the diversion folks..........

Do you actually think the readers here are such mindless lemmings that they need your interpretation of what has been stated?

You just don't like being introduced to yourself. That's what the problem is.

Allow me to introduce you to yourself again Randy:

RB: "And because I've had the chance to read much of what you've written over the years I've drawn some conclusions."

RB: "If I think back to what I may have learned from you about predator hunting, I realize that it's nothing."

I don't need to try to interpret those statements Randy, they are self-explanatory.

Like I said, you are either incapable of learning, you can't read, you've never had a chance to apply the knowledge (you hunt fox instead of coyotes), or you are too arrogant to admit having learned anything from me. You choose! If you can't learn anything from me about calling coyotes, you can't learn anything from anyone. I don't say that with arrogance, I say that it with confidence. Don't confuse the two.

Here's two more statements of yours:

RB: "For some reason you feel everyone who responds is guilty."

RB: "You aren't interested in helping people learn to kill more coyotes."

Both of those statements are BOLD FACED LIES Randy and you want to lecture me on dishonesty? Spare me! I suppose you're going to try to change the meaning of these statements too huh?

You couldn't back either of those statements if your life depended on it.

Randy: "The thing that fires me up the most about Scott's posts is his broad finger pointing and lack of respect in his dealings with folks. His insinuations about those who "Prostitute" the sport is so much crap."

If you are still upset about your ORIGINAL INTERPRETATION of my statement, I can't help that. You know what I meant now. I explained it thoroughly. If my concerns do not apply to you, let it go. If they do, then you are one of the parasites. Only you can decide.

If you don't like my attitude towards the inexperienced parasites who prostitute the sport by selling other's knowledge and hard work for their own financial gain and notoriety without even acknowledging who taught them, that's fine. I can live with that but I won't apologize for it nor expect you to understand it. The only ones who fully understand it are those with the same level of experience that I have like Leonard and Varmit Hunter.

RB: "Hell, just as an example of his disrepectful self, he called Byron numerous other names all the way though."

Hahaha! What an imagination you have.

Here, let's try this one on for size:

BS: "In reading this thread a few words come to mind. Rude, arrogant, high and mighty, egotistical, paranoid, envious, insecure, smart assed, narrow minded, poor attitude, bitter, selfish, hypocritical, but most of all manipulative."

Lecture me on name calling again Randy! LOL!Yeh, you bet!

You want to read a classic spin job by the same author? Here it is:

BS: "Your not alone in your seemingly, bitter assessment of others that would somehow like to enjoy and learn the art of calling critters and those that are willing to help them."

I won't bother to ask you for proof to back that statement because it doesn't exist. Another Bold Faced Lie. I never said anything negative towards anyone wanting to learn. In contrast, I have taught many. That statement was total bullsh*t as well.

My negative statements are towards the inexperienced who are selling other's knowledge for their own financial gain and notoriety with no respect towards those that taught them.

Here's one that's even better:

BS: "I know who Scott Huber is, and I respect him enough not to judge him."

Followed by:

BS: "In reading this thread a few words come to mind. Rude, arrogant, high and mighty, egotistical, paranoid, envious, insecure, smart assed, narrow minded, poor attitude, bitter, selfish, hypocritical, but most of all manipulative."

I don't need to try to interpret that direct contradiction either. It's self-explanatory.

RB: "Bottom line with Scott is that, as I have said before, I won't let anyone talk down to me without defending myself. Scott has done nothing but talk down to me."

I thought you didn't care what I thought??? LOL!

Which way is it?

If my original remark did not apply to you ONCE EXPLAINED, you had the chance to let it go just like Lance did. For whatever reason, you couldn't let it go. So back and forth we go.

Let me help you out here Randy because you're obviously trying to ride out a sinking ship. If my definition of an industry prostitute does not apply to you, just drop it. I should have explained it thoroughly enough by now to where you have no doubts what I am talking about yet you still want to clutch on to your original interpretation or you have a guilty conscience because me remarks do apply to you. With your relentless pursuit to try to discredit me because of my views, you're only making yourself look guilty of exactly what I detest. Let it go!

You claim that my statement doesn't apply to you, that's good enough for me until proven otherwise. PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENSE!

Better yet, why don't you ask me something about coyote behavior, stand selection, handling coyotes, vocalizations or something you would like to learn more about. If you took a different attitude, you might find out that you could improve your calling success simply by deflating your ego and showing a little respect for those who have more experience than you.

If you are waiting for an apology for my views on the parasites in this industry, it won't happen and I don't care what anyone thinks of me for holding that view.

Krusty,

I have been intrigued by your situation since I first saw pictures of your country. There is no doubt that you are faced with some challenging obstacles to overcome. I have absolutely no doubts that with your determination to stick with calling coyotes, despite your limited success DUE TO THESE OBSTACLES, if you were in an area with more coyotes and easier terrain to hunt, you would tear 'em up. I'm obsessed with obtaining success in difficult situations. I wish I could help you out.

I wish I understood your situation better to try to help you out IF I COULD. I know you've been frustrated like a lot of guys in the Eastern U.S. have been but even more so.

Did the strategies we discussed previously help you in any way?

~SH~

[ December 30, 2005, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 30, 2005, 03:15 PM:
 
First off, for the record, Leonard taught me all I know about misting. He was the primary contributor in my article on misting (totally consentual) and is the sole reason I am now known in darker quarters as a "misbred, hare-lipped idiot". I would defend myself regarding that endearing title, but they banned my ass some time ago because the .17 isn't a good coyote caliber. Their misunderstanding, not mine.

Having said that, I was a contributor on that thread at PM about misting, explaining some of my more recent hypotheses about how or why it works so well, as well as relating some of my own more dramatic experiences. I could easily have attributed everything I was saying to Leonard Bosinski but I felt compelled, out of respect, to take all the heat from the naysayers onto my own shoulders. You weren't forgotten, Leonard. I just chose to sit on the grenade all by myself.

As far as paying the postage to get Randy's video to K, c'mon!!! I agreed some time back to bury the hatchet with Krusty and I'm a man of my word. Krusty has been very cordial and respectful to me and I plan to extend the same courtesy toward him. Granted, his remark was a bit blunt and came across as not so much a simple exclamation of his personal opinion as an attempt at being visciously inflammatory. But, what the hell. If he wants to jump on that bull, go for it. He explained his stance and I can't disagree with his philosophy. (Hell has done frozen over.)

To his credit, he was quick to state, right out front, that Randy and the guys at PM piss him off. He didn't cloak his position in vague innuendos and indirect assertions which, to the casual reader, could have been directed at any one of the majority of us, guilty consciences or not. This damned thread is six and a half pages long! I kinda think we could have avoided a whole lot of grief and wasted bandwidth had Scott just started out by saying "Johnny Dogcaller really pisses me off!" and started from there because I still don't have a clue who he's pissed at. Granted, he's entitled to his opinion, mjust loike anyone else. But I work witha guy that carried on for more than two weeks about how evil Sant Claus is (Satan Claus to him) and how those of us that insisted on letting our children believe in that pagan BS were all going to hell. Finally, I dragged him in front of management and told them that the first time he opened his mouth, he expressed his opinion. Since then, everything he said was spoken with the intent not to express his opinion, but rather, to antagonize. In that sense, he crossed a line. Kinda the ame thing going on here if you ask me. You didn't, so I'll just keep my mouth shut from here on out.

Krusty,

Why don't we pop the tops on a couple cold beers and watch Scott and Randy beat the crap outta each other?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 30, 2005, 03:18 PM:
 
Scott, you are embarassing me with your compliments. I'm unworthy.

I'm still waiting for you guys to reach some mutual respect and understanding. How long will the wait be?

Good hunting. LB

edit: sorry, Lance. I know you and K have reached accord. I was just yanking your chain. I appreciate your defense of misting over there, you did your best. Of course, I am prevented from participating. Some people might see a glaring unfairness in that; since several people responding here in this thread are moderators on PM. Just think, I used to be an important and valuable contributor on PM. But, for the past three years, I'm persona non grata. Something is wrong with that picture, if you ask me?

[ December 30, 2005, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on December 30, 2005, 04:58 PM:
 
K-rist.....Don`t any of you guys have jobs?

Scott, I see your your point clearly & it`s a valid one for sure. Perhaps, maybe, it`s a possibility, that I was a little off in my assesment of YOUR ego.
Bad info is abundant on the net & people soak it up like a sponge so I understand your disdain for inexperienced people giving out bad info but I don`t care who takes credit for what as long as the "tip" is a valid one, people will benefit. I`ve come up with some good ideas in construction & see others using them that either don`t know where it started or claim to have been the originator in fact I`m sure that somebody somewhere probably did those things before I did but it doesn`t matter much to me if they pass it along because it`s a valid idea with some merrit to it, who cares where it came from.

Most of these flash in the pan types are just that, here today & gone tommorrow & in the future we`ll all still be calling predators & loving every minute of it & they`ll be miserable specimens who sit & wonder what happened to the good ol` days when they were famous while we mock them around a campfire somewhere in the desert, it`ll all come out in the wash.

I don`t want to open any sores or start a war of any kind or call Lance any colorful names but I`ll say this....Whether it be bad info or just a misunderstanding, I too have obviously misunderstood the reason behind or the purpose of misting but after your post it would seem that maybe I should go over to PM & research it a little before I make up my mind.

See, even a growly deviant from NE. can pick out a nugget or 2 from a train wreck like this.

You guys really need to go find jobs.
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on December 30, 2005, 05:06 PM:
 
Randy,

Yep, you got e-mails from me... funny thing is, I got NO ANSWER from you.

I said in my e-mails I didn't have a problem with you, then you blew me off, and didn't have the courtesy to asnwer my direct questions in those e-mails. That is disrespectful, especially in light of the fact I was trying to be nice about a very ugly and unfair screwing I was getting.
That pissed me off.

I stuck my neck WAY out, for you, in the flipper light thread. And I was left to take my lumps for it.

I offered to build you a flipper light, because I then (mistakenly) thought your opinion was worth a dang, and that in doing so I might help (the many of us who don't "get" night hunting) to take a huge step forward.
Not because I like you.

The fact that you weren't as willing to help, and the way that whole messed turned, that was the end for me. You blew your chance to regain my respect.

Scott,

Thanks, but my determination to call coyotes where I live has gone down a whole lot.

I do expect to call other predators, close to home, as I have done in the past, but I no longer expect to ever see a coyote come to a stand.

I tend to agree, if I were in a coyote rich environment, I'd do okay.

My situation is not unique, though it might be a "highly concentrated" version of what many others go through, it is challenging though.
I have a whole lot less frustration related to hunting, than I do with the internet, but I have my frustrating days in the field too.

So many things so many people have done, to try to help me, are working, in small steps.
I'm slowly improving all the skills needed, and my understanding of predator calling.

This year, I haven't been trying very hard, I'll admit it.
I'm not giving up, but I am no longer driven, and I got a lot on my plate right now... a two hour duck hunt (where I fire more shots in one morning than I ever did at predators) is easier to get excited about than a 15 hour drive to where EVERYONE else goes to harrass coyotes on public land.

As soon as I can replace my sick and dying '79 Ford Fiesta (I have the $, just need to find a rig) I'll get serious and go where coyotes are.

My old soul could use some wintering in the desert, my S.A.D. has been kickin' my ass this year.

If you should ever happen out this way, I'd be glad to show you around.

Lance,

I knew my first statement might be inflammatory, but I didn't make it JUST to be inflammatory.
I thought the point should be made, that not everyone likes videos, or the guys in them.
There's an exception to every rule... and often times, I am it.

And then, he asked, so I answered truthfully.
Man, that helps so much when they do that.

As long as mine is a root beer, I am cool with that.

quote:

---

Some people might see a glaring unfairness...

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Leonard,

Gee, ya think? Some people might...

Krusty

P.S. JD, This is how I chose to waste my vacation.

[ December 30, 2005, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 30, 2005, 05:14 PM:
 
I think Scott is a public employee. So, Joe wants to know why he isn't killing coyotes, instead of participating on this "train wreck". I'm retired, with nothing better to do.

Seems like I have seen you around before, maybe on the darkside?

But, my real reason for this response: You won't learn much of nothing about "Leonard's Magic Mist" on Predator Masters, of all places. That's rude, Dude!

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on December 30, 2005, 05:30 PM:
 
Wow Scott, Your fingers have to be worn to nubs after that one!

I'll address your issues one by one but without all this Bull Sh!t quoting. (Yeah, I can hear it now... No proof, my opinion, etc. etc. But, everyone else will be able to draw their own conclusions..

First my saying you are dishonest. That's based on your taking things out of context. The example was you calling me arrogant because I said I never learned anything from you. You implied that I meant that I couldn't learn anything from you because I was too arrogant to listen and learn. In fact, on face value, all I said was that I haven't learned from you, not that it was impossible.

Your next concern was that I called you on taking things out of context. That's addressed above and relates to why I say you are dishonest.

YOu said: Like I said, you are either incapable of learning, you can't read, you've never had a chance to apply the knowledge (you hunt fox instead of coyotes), or you are too arrogant to admit having learned anything from me. You choose! If you can't learn anything from me about calling coyotes, you can't learn anything from anyone. I don't say that with arrogance, I say that it with confidence. Don't confuse the two.

Actually, Scott, there is another choice that you didn't list. That choice would be that you've never written anything that I've seen that was new to me. Sorry, man. You aren't the only one with plenty of answers to the wiley ol' coyote. As far you you telling me not to confuse arrogance with confidence, you should have saved that line for me to tell you not to confuse the two. It's obvious you don't have a clue what the differences are.

I said: "For some reason you feel everyone who responds is guilty." You said that's a bold faced lie. If that's not true, then why do you keep insinuating that anyone who has responded to your post in a defensive manner feels guilty????

You told me to let this prostitution comment go if it does't apply to me. This isn't about that anymore. It's about your disrespectful attitude toward me and others.

I said: RB: "Hell, just as an example of his disrepectful self, he called Byron numerous other names all the way though." You replied that I had an active imagination. Yeah???? Here's your proof. And, see, I have caught you in one of your lies and you won't be able to back out of it. You called him (and these are copied directly from your posts.)

Just out of curiousity Brian, since I don't know you from Adam and have never seen your videos, would it be safe to say that you are helping others for monetary gain? Brian???

And Brian again. Hold your horses Brian, I don't know you from Adam. Never saw any of your videos. Don't jump to conclusions thinking my "prostitution" comment was referring to you.

And another one just a few lines down in the same post. If you're not Joe, don't worry about it Bryan South.

And a different version of it. Only Bryon, You, Cal, and Ronnie can answer that.

Finally on Page 4 you got it right. Same goes for Byron South.

Playing games with someone's name like that just further shows your disrepect. Your saying you hadn't done it shows your dishonesty. I suppose you could go back now and edit all your posts. That's why I quoted directly from them.

Tell me again that you don't lie or play games???

You want more examples of your manipulations? Here's one: You quoted Byron: "I know who Scott Huber is, and I respect him enough not to judge him."

Then you quoted him again: BS: "In reading this thread a few words come to mind. Rude, arrogant, high and mighty, egotistical, paranoid, envious, insecure, smart assed, narrow minded, poor attitude, bitter, selfish, hypocritical, but most of all manipulative." I have got ask where in the world you assumed he was talking about you!?!?! He never mentioned your name at all. Or, if you want me to play the same game as you have been doing with me. Unless of course you feel GUILTY then I guess we all know the truth!

Scott, I know you aren't about to cower over, show your belly and submit. Funny thing is, neither am I. You keep wanting me to point out and justify the things I've said. I've done that. Are you satisfied?

What I'm expressing have been nothing more than my opinion and perceptions. Funny thing is, that's exacty what you've been expressing. Who is right... Hmmmmm. If you go away, I can think I'm right. OK?
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on December 30, 2005, 05:38 PM:
 
Leonard, I didn`t mean to be rude in my ignorance although I do have a knack for being rude at times, I was just under the impression that there was a thread of some sort that pertained to it on PM & I`m sincere in my efforts to get the facts concerning it. I`m not all that interested in bygones between boards or who called who a hairlip, it`s all quite amusing at times but after the dust settles I`m really more interested in improving my calling skills, I believe that is the common thread between MOST callers no matter how ugly it gets on the boards. Again, I didn`t mean to insult you, just looking for answers.

[ December 30, 2005, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: JD ]
 

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Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on December 30, 2005, 05:42 PM:
 
Hey Cal, not offended at all about your opinion of the OP2 video, even in light of the fact that I was the one that pushed the hardest for that philosophy to be used. The first OP was 2\3rds completed when our company was bought in 99. I was sort of fit in at the last minute. It was purely an entertainment video.

I personally have never liked the whack'em and stack'em videos from any catagory of wildlife. That is just me personally. If it has to be done, it should be done with taste, but that is another chest thumping debate...not for this thread.

I liked the teaching\action philosophy that HS used on their award winning "So you want to be" series on Archery and Turkey hunting. I even pushed for them to get away from the OP Title and use "So you want to be a Coyote Hunter" title. I lost on that one.

They were reluctant to use that style on coyotes because the first two were not the tremendous financial successes they hoped for ...in spite of their quality production and informational values. I came from a background of having had my ear to the ground on what most of my JS customers were asking for. That was a good teaching video on calling coyotes. The Eastern hunters were strongly asking for that.

Take two useful, very sought after products that appeal one each to Eastern and Western Coyote hunters and I would want to market the one the Easterners want. The potential for sales is far greater East of the Mississippi than west of it.
I wanted a teaching video for all watchers to be in our library, which is more closely satisfied by the OP2 video. The Eastern guys will still be left wanting somewhat and I tend to agree with them. There is a ton of very good and useful info in that one for viewers on both sides of the big river.

A seasoned veteran like yourself and the "pampus knows it alls" will be pretty bored with it but I am thrilled and gratified with the feedback we get from those thirsting for knowledge....on any level. If a viewer who wants to see lots of splatter looks at OP2 he will be dissappointed. If you only want to be entertained...you may be let down. We have quite a number congratulate us on both. As for your reluctance to teach...man give us all you got and then acknowledge those you have learned from at some point on the video. I personally believe that your attitude about that is misplaced. I say that in a "brotherly" way.

I am really torn about this thread. I think it has gotten way out of hand and am honestly pretty dissappointed about how it has gone on. I have good friends on both sides and probably will just have to remain as neutral as I can. My mouth will get me in trouble if I speak frankly about it. I went over and found the misting thread on the PM board and read it.

I can't help but believe ego's have run amuck. Characterizations are being validated right and left. Factionalism abounds. I will stop short of being that Rodney guy from LA, but it is almost to that point. I honestly don't see much respect being shown for others opinions on this subject.

The internet is the last place to have a discussion like this because of its shortcomings. Kind of reminds me of the old flame wars on the Shade Tree. That makes me very sad.

[ December 30, 2005, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on December 30, 2005, 06:08 PM:
 
I couldn`t find that thread nor do I want to if it`s merely a flame fest, I guess I`ll see if I can find the controversial article to satisfy my curiosity but don`t worry, regardless of my conclusion I promise I wont call anyone names.

And yes Leonard I hunt with a .17 & Airedales, why? Could you feel the presence of the "Darkside". (just playin`)

[ December 30, 2005, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: JD ]
 

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Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on December 30, 2005, 06:32 PM:
 
Gerald,

I agree with you. But, you know, it's funny. I've got my pride all fluffed up and every derogatory thing that is said about me or a friend and I just get more and more upset. And, when one doesn't respect someone who you feel is attacking you, it's easy to lash out.

If I were a bigger man, I'd let this go. I guess I'm just not that big of a man.

Randy
 

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Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on December 30, 2005, 06:53 PM:
 
I'm glad you took no offense Gerald, none was intended and there's no doubt that you have a better grasp on what the general public wants than I do. My personal feelings are still somewhere else. I never want to come off as a "pampass ass" even though I get to post at Leonards. I will agree on part of what you said, for me personally, I don't care for the splatter and blood and guts dragging, and I hope thats not what you think I personally want in a video. I want to see a coyote handled well and dispatched efficiently. I like videos and buy many, but I am probably not a major demographic. I still don't feel qualified to preach to the masses and my style of hunting with dogs isn't what I personally feel John Q Everybody should be doing, so that is probably part of why I don't care to offer any instruction. There are others that have preached that decoy dogs are for everybody, but in reality very few can give those type of dogs the work they need. Someday, I would like to do a straight calling video, no dogs, maybe with some instruction, but the market seems flooded to me right now and I think there are plenty of others out there right now that are well qualified to do just as they are doing. And there are plenty of unqualified having at it also. Like most here, I was hunting coyotes before this craze started and I'll probably be out in the brush somewhere hunting coyotes when it's over. I'm not planning a career in the video industy that is for sure, but I have enjoyed some of the filming we have done. It is fun for me to get some of the footage of the stuff I have have seen with coyotes and dogs, that most haven't seen. To guys like Scott, it's nothing new, but to many it is. I have a bunch of footage sitting on my computer shelf right now that is spectacular, but I don't know if it will ever get into video form or not, and I'm not too worried about it either way. Another major difference is that it is your business to sell products with your videos, and you are the grand old master that has seen this end of the deal for as long as you have been alive, and there is no doubt that you know your business well. I'm pretty green in that department and have nothing to sell! LOL!

I am however interested in your opinions of how the industry that you are in has changed in the last 20 years. You surely have seen changes that you both like and dislike.
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on December 30, 2005, 07:16 PM:
 
Man, I haven't had this much entertainment since the old days on the old Posse Country when Wiley and Dr.Ed had their disscussions.LOL

I do believe alot of what Wiley is trying to say though.I think we are getting alot of new guys to the sport that haven't learned all the in's and out's of Predator hunting by putting there time in with experience.They want to be the best RIGHT NOW. and it is hurting the sport as a whole.Guys that watch a video especially one by a not so experienced caller,then they go out and educate all the coyotes in a given area.LOL And for what? To grease someones pocket with some fast cash.There are lots of great informitive videos out there that HELP to make you a BETTER caller and I don't think Wiley is discrediting them.It's like he said "showboaters" just in it for the money that are the problem.

And like he said only YOU can decide which one you are.

But keep the comments coming,This beats watching CSI.LOL Good Hunting Chad
 

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Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on December 30, 2005, 07:38 PM:
 
Cal, I have never gotten the impression that you would be other than you have stated. I wasn't trying to tag you with that, it just happened that you ended up in the same sentence as others that view those entertainment videos for different reasons.

I love watching what you do. I do not really have the opportunity to put any of what I would learn from your videos to good use because I simply do not have the time to train a dog or places to do it regularly. About the market being flooded, I wonder at times if many in this market are like the followers of Anima(Japanese cartoons). They can't seem to get enough of it. My son probably has several hundred of those episodes. Some guys have to have every hunting DVD that comes out. I think there will be ready market for DVDs for some time. The big companies crank a whole re-occurring series every year and have been doing it for some time. They would not be doing that if there was not anyone buying them.

As for "grand old master". Just how did you mean that? I am only 51.

I am about 1\2 way through a powerpoint program on the history of Johnny Stewart Game Calls for the PM rendevous. It has really been a walk down memory lane as well as a good overview of how this industry evolved. It also has been very humbling in that I have relived a bunch of missteps I have made along the way. When I started reviewing how things turned out in my dealings with people who eventually became major competitors, I had a bunch of V8 moments where I realized in hind sight how foolish I was to not market something for them or provide something of ours for them to participate in this industry with.

I had the opportunity to make things turn out differently with the likes of Bill Delmonte (Bill Anderson Game calls), Dennis Kirk, John Dillion (Fox Pro) and several others who approached us at various times about working with them in some way.

Randy, that is one of the toughest things in the world to walk away from when you feel wronged in some way. I am living that myself right now having lost $200,000 trying to help a "friend" make a retirement for himself. Sometimes I wonder if the more I try to get others to know the truth if it doesn't start to reflect badly on me.

JD, go about 4 pages back in the predator hunting thread on PM and look for the "Misting" thread. I did not mean to insinuate that the PM thread was a flame war. This one takes the prize for that. Hey, someone bumped it up to page 1.

[ December 30, 2005, 08:05 PM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 30, 2005, 07:45 PM:
 
There you go, Chad. Keep the proper perspective. This stuff is just cheap entertainment and a few chuckles. While some are wringing their hands; I'm glad you see the humor.

And, Cal! You sent up a few kernels of wisdom, dude. Or, stinging commentary, as you wish.

And, I agree completely. Gerald has a unique perspective. As an insider, and a gentleman, he's well qualified to evaluate the direction the Sport and the Industry has taken, lo these many years.

You should do it, Gerald! A lot of folks would love to hear your side of the story. In any format.

Good hunting. LB

edit: we get some kind of flame war prize? hot dog!

[ December 30, 2005, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on December 30, 2005, 07:54 PM:
 
Hey UT caller, endulge me for a moment in a converstation so I can understand things better. I am not trying to challenge you on your words, I just want understand better what is the issue at hand. Give me your description of, or your interpretation of, a "showboater". You don't have to name names, just desrcibe better for me what you are referring to.

Additionally, in your best debators delivery explain why it is bad for someone to want to be the best they can be in the shortest amount of time. Do you prefer that guys go out there totally misinformed from the get go?

In my opinion that is the fastest way to educate coyotes. How do you learn all of the "In's" and "Outs" of calling if you do not start somewhere? Seems like watching DVD is a good place to start learning from. I believe experience is your best teacher but also believe that experience teaches a lot faster if it confirms or dispells something you have read or seen before experience kicks your butt or pats you on the back.

Say hey Leonard, maybe when I have time after this current project I will start a thread on the history of calling. It seems that in the past that subject has also been one of "me first" claims from you western guys and us easterners from Texas. That might be fun.

[ December 30, 2005, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on December 30, 2005, 08:36 PM:
 
Gerald,I'm sorry. I guess I should have explained myself alittle better.I understand that with the information age comes both pro's and con's.When I started calling many years ago.The market was not flooded with information as it is today.I had the opportunity to learn from seasoned callers that had alot of experience.Along with some other more noteable veterans in the field of calling. Guys like Bill Austin,Ed Sceery,Yourself,and a few others were about it,back then.The information was SOUND and very helpful.Now fast forward to today.I AM IN NO WAY POINTING FINGERS AT ANYONE.There are so many video's with contradicting views from all types of callers,it would be very easy to be confused to which is the correct method of calling.And it's easy to say "test out all of the tactics and see which one fits best for YOU".But in the mean time when you have 10 times as many callers out there than say 5-10 years ago because they saw that "cool coyote calling DVD" and how easy it LOOKED to call and kill coyotes,it's easy to see why in some areas that used to produce alot of coyotes now produces few if any.I know I don't own exclusive rights to coyote calling,but it is frustrating none the less.What is the answer?Don't know.Just have to adapt to the changing times I guess..FWIW Good Hunting Chad

As far as "showboaters" go,I don't really have a DEFINITION for it, but I think Scott explained it very well.
 

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Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on December 30, 2005, 08:51 PM:
 
First things first Randy. Do NOT send Krusty your video!!! The consequences would be devastating!! If he tried to shoot him self in the head I am sure he would F#%@ that up too. I am in no mood to listen to the whiney little bastur…. fella for the next 3 years. If Lance is a harelip, Byron is a Ho, Scott is a legend, Rich is a Doctor, and Vic is a God (formerly) we are all in good company. All this diversity begs the question “What the f@#$ is Krusty?”

I know quotes are sometimes annoying but I have a few thoughts on one in particular.

Leonard wrote….

quote:

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There are many ways of gaining respect. Respect from some segments of the fraternity has more value than some others; such as the less informed newbie. Respect from the hardcore among us is more difficult and takes longer.

---

With all of the events that have transpired over the last couple of days I have had many of the same thoughts as Leonard. There are few rewards in predator hunting but gaining the respect of the most accomplished hunters in the field is about as high as the bar goes.

Now out of decency we always say we respect everyone and that may be true but that is not the kind of respect I am talking about. There is a kind of respect that is cherished far beyond a common mutual respect we all have for each other.

The respect I appreciate most happens at trapping and hunting conventions.

It feels good to get publicly recognized by some of the most accomplished guys out there. It also feels good to wade through a crowd of people huddled around Major Boddicker or John Graham or Vern Howey to see them stop what ever they are doing immediately. And with a smile and a handshake they address me by my first name and ask, “How are you doing Quinton? Good to see you again.” That followed up by a few minutes of catching up is priceless.

It is always humbling to have men like these whose accomplishments far exceed my own demonstrate that kind of respect. To me it is far better than a thousand leg humpers that are patronizing you for a pat on the head or a seat at the table. It is nice to be recognized for what you have done but there is certainly a value system for respect.

I think part of what irritates some of the old hands is that they see the commercialization of their way of life. They see videos with new faces and articles with new authors and are left wondering what the hell have they done to be qualified? What have they contributed?

Earlier I flipped open the November issue of the Trapper and looked at the inside cover of the last page. The header read “NEW VIDEOS 2005” I see names like Thorp, Plueger, Sterling, Graham and Pedersen. All of these men have walked the walk. They all have more than enough miles and numbers behind them to earn their peace of the pie. They have all donated time and money to organizations that preserve our heritage and privileges. More importantly they were doing all of this long before they had anything to sell.

Lets face it. There are guys out there making videos and writing articles that have accomplished nothing, have pioneered nothing and have contributed nothing in the world of predator calling, trapping and hunting outside of making a video or writing an article for money. I think they are looked upon to some extent as imposters that just “stepped in” when they saw a little money to be made and used other peoples hard earned knowledge as a springboard.

Fear not my friends! None of this is new in the business world. When the money runs out names will fade away like smoke in the wind. The same con artists that got under your skin will probably be off “prostituting” some other aspect of hunting or golf or what ever else they can offer there expert advice on. All being backed of course with there 20, 30 or 40 years experience and a money back guaranteeeeeeee . LOL

It will be only those with the real miles and the real accomplishments with the real background that will echo in our history and held in high esteem.

Good hunting.

Q,
 

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Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on December 30, 2005, 08:58 PM:
 
Comparitively speaking only Gerald (the grand old master comment) You may be only 51 but I'm still going to call that 50 years experience in the calling industry. I don't know if anyone else that is currently successful in the business of selling calls and videos has been around it longer than that.
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on December 30, 2005, 09:42 PM:
 
Q,

I have my self respect, I don't need yours.

I didn't whine about shit, the FACTS are my situation is pitiful (and some do pity me).
And just like Scott told Todd, you don't have to read what I write, if you don't like it.

Until you wanna come out here and show me how it's done, and ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO DO IT, then ...well, I'm sure you know what's comes next.

It's real easy for you, to drive around with your binoculars and rangefinder, and kill coyotes (sometimes) without ever tootin' on a call, but you'd get your ass handed to you here.
I guarantee it.

Yeah all this diversity does make me wonder, I'm not sure I'd put the same labels on everyone as you have, but I'd say I am a "trooper".
You've said it yourself, you'd quit if you were in my shoes.
I know, for sure, what I am not. I am not a quitter.

I am in plenty good company all by myself, are you?

I can already feel the short leash tightening, so before I overstep my limits, and tell you what I think you are... I'll just say "good night".

Krusty
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 30, 2005, 10:45 PM:
 
You can actually FEEL that leash, K? I know you have to respond, kinda like Randy feels he has to respond. The funny part is that your name was mentioned, and Randy's was not.

I'm still trying to figure out why RB is so strenuously objecting to what Wiley said, since he has not named names, and it's still anybody's guess as to who (specifically) he has the problem with? He speaks in generalities, after all?

I tend to think that Scott is entitled to his opinion, and from here, it looks like Randy is saying that he doesn't like Scott's opinion; or that Scott shouldn't be entitled to voice his opinion? So, if Scott was/is trolling, it seems like he has accidentally snagged a "hook up" with 40 lb. test and can't shake him loose.

Cut the line, Scott; or reel him in!

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on December 30, 2005, 11:10 PM:
 
Jesus Krusty I can’t sleep!!! PLEASE tell me what you think I am!!! Krusty I got to be honest with ya. You piss me off. I don’t know if it is that stupid little smiley face that always waves at me, or your chronic bitching? Listening to you whine all of the time is like fingernails being slowly raked over a chalkboard.

I know I know I don’t HAVE to read your posts but I can’t help it. It is like stumbling on to the Jerry Springer Show while channel surfing. It doesn’t matter that it is a total waste of time but you just got to watch. LOL

You said that some people do pity you but I simply can’t. I am sorry though about the traumatic head injury you suffered while rock climbing. But look at you now!! You have money!! I am happy you got your old job as a cart boy back at Wal Mart!! Before long they will promote you to greeter!!

The last thing I think I need to address is you not being a quitter. Now that is a good attitude to have but sometimes ya just got to throw in the towel. There has got to be something you can do? Knitting, bowling, hell you could problem even teach underwater fire prevention? There is a whole wide world of opportunity just waiting for you.

Now about your sig line krusty. They miss you man. Go home.

Good hunting.

Q,
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on December 31, 2005, 12:55 AM:
 
I'm done with it. Randy's last post has nothing to respond to so I'll let him have the last word. When a post has reached the point of my mispelling someone's name being considered "name calling" the straws are about as thin as they're going to get. Anything further would just be a repeat of what has already been said and there's more than enough repitition already. I think I made my point and I have the satisfaction of knowing that I'm not alone in my concerns with the "fast buck artist". If everyone stops and thinks about the issue a little and tries to do the right thing, the rubber bullets and empty adjectives I absorb will be worth the effort.

This issue is really not just inexperience, it's not just bad information or misunderstanding and misapplying good information, it's not just disrespect, and it's not just showboating. It's all of these combined into one hyper money hungry "fast buck artist" that doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground BUT GAWD DOES HE LOVE THE CAMERA.

Contrary to popular belief, I didn't expect the walls to come tumbling down for some at the mention of my concern with prostitution of the sport. In hindsight I should have thrown a complete explanation out right from the start on a seperate thread not tied to coyote calling demographics. I didn't expect the reaction or the misinterpretation. I guess I forgot how fragile some egos really are. Another lesson in human behavior.

Carry on!

~SH~

[ December 31, 2005, 12:58 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on December 31, 2005, 02:39 AM:
 
Leonard,

In a previous post you asked me specifically what my beef was and I told you. You still don't get it?

Let me try throwing insinuations directed in the general direction of you and your friends and see how you respond. Seems like the old .17rem debate where if you don't use one, you aren't a real hunter, blah, blah blah.

I know Scott is your friend but you can certainly see my point after all of this???
 

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Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on December 31, 2005, 03:33 AM:
 
Scott, you just don't quit, do ya?

You wrote: When a post has reached the point of my mispelling someone's name being considered "name calling"...

Why in the world would you quote me that I had said anything about you "name calling" when I never said that.

Just another expample of your manipulating what I've said to throw your spin on it. Just another attempt to discredit me that didn't work.

What I said, and it's quoted exactly below is that you "called Byron numerous other names" as in names that are not his.

"Hell, just as an example of his disrepectful self, he called Byron numerous other names all the way though."

You'll all have to give me most of the day off. I have to go out and try to get a few coyotes on film today.

Later,
Randy

[ December 31, 2005, 03:35 AM: Message edited by: Randy Buker ]
 

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Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on December 31, 2005, 05:28 AM:
 
Thanks Chad, your response was effective for me and has turned the gears. What you and others may be feeling frustrated with, may be the result of the maturing of our market, sport or whatever you what to characterize it as. When the trapping market collapse came about back in the late 80's, a phenomenom occurred that propelled our sales to a point it would have been hard for Dad to believe.

What was the turf of Trappers, ADC agents and a small but managable group of sport hunters, in the course of 15 years has grown to the point we are at today. After a short 3 year post collapse decline, our company grew back to three times the size of its pre-collapse size in only 6 years.

Hunters from many other areas of the hunting fraternity finally began to see what Dad and others had known since way back in the earliest days. Predator calling is a great way to enjoy the outdoors, in many cases year round. Coyotes density and range expanded dramatically and they became known and a factor, almost everywhere.

The maturing process actually began after the good fur years of the late 70's early 80's. That is when we saw new competitors start to proliferate. Dennis Kirk in the east, Bill Anderson(Bill Delmonte's sounds)and United States Sporting Products(our sounds, Murry's caller) in the West. When the late 80s collapse of the fur market came about we bought the Delmonte line and Nite light eventually bought Dennis Kirk. We sued USSP out of exsistence. The early to mid 90s saw the introduction of the Buddy Caller, Fox Pro and the Lohman\Western Rivers rip off of our 512 Cassette caller.

The Lohman venture into the electronic predator calling niche was the first of the big boys who were watching the rapidly rising coyote market. Hunters Specialties wanted to be a major player and decided to grow by aquisition rather than by copying someone else. Primos has added Randy Anderson. I suspect they would be smart to stay out of the electronic end of the game for a while longer to see where it goes. They may eventually do what HS did by aquiring a smaller but rising company.

From Stage left....The Loudmouth, the Minaska, the Extreme Dimension, the Predation, the Preymaster and lord knows what else that is still on the drawing board. Throw in improvements and upgrades of existing units and you have a toxic mix of product and promotion that evidently is causing some....a problem with the good and bad effects....of a capitalistic, maturing market.

I say "bring it on" for the consumer. It can't be anything but good for them from the standpoint of increasingly better products and information about how to do what we have advocated all along. Where the rub comes is exactly what some on this thread are feeling discomfort with....when and where are all of the newbies going to be able to do what they are entitled to do....call and shoot coyotes.

I know exactly what is making you feel upset because I too long for the good ol days. Remember the glory days of Tennis or Track...Boxing or any number of other niches in our lives. They come and they go, rise and fall and yet somehow along the way we have all had the opportunity to continue participating directly or indirectly in those activities. Maybe not to the degree of the "glory" days but yet it is still there for us to participate in.

As for Byron, the Twins or anybody else who wants to jump in with a contribution of entertainment, teaching, or other calling related products...more power to them...come on in and swim with the sharks. Time will weed out the imposters, fakes, also rans or simply ineffective business people who try their hand at this game. Only the strong will survive.

I have seen that principle work many times and trust that it will continue to work.

Let me throw out one more morsel of thought for your consumption. Could this issue possibly be a microcosm for the Hunting industry itself. Will we see a more dramatic day when hunting itself grows to the point where there are too many participants, too few places or it is too expensive for the average Joe to be involved any longer. Depressing thought isn't it.

[ December 31, 2005, 05:34 AM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]
 

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Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on December 31, 2005, 08:07 AM:
 
Gerald. I don't think you could have summed up the state of this post and the state of the entire outdoor industry any better.

Well written sir.
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on December 31, 2005, 09:02 AM:
 
Well I guess Randy's not done with it even when he's empty handed.

Randy, you honestly want to split the hair between "calling Byron other names" and "name calling"???

"Calling Byron other names" implies "name calling" not "mispelling Byron's name".

If your issue of contention was "mispelling Byron's name", that's what you should have said instead of "calling Byron other names".

That's what you are left holding at this point???? That's your definition of manipulation???? LOL!

Ahhhhh....ok? Whatever you say Randy!

Talk about desperate. That's funny! Why would you even sink your teeth into something so meaningless when "name calling" came from your bad or deceiving choice of words.

What a fragile ego!

You want to split the hair between "name calling" and "calling Byron other names" while you change complete sentences to back out of what you said:

First you said, "you feel everyone who responds is guilty" then when I called you on it, THAT STATEMENT SUDDENLY TRANSFORMS INTO "why do you keep INSINUATING that anyone who has responded to your post IN A DEFENSIVE MANNER feels guilty".

RB: "I said: "For some reason you feel everyone who responds is guilty." You said that's a bold faced lie. If that's not true, then why do you keep insinuating that anyone who has responded to your post in a defensive manner feels guilty????"

You said, "YOU FEEL EVERYONE WHO RESPONDS IS GUILTY", I never suggested such a thing so you change the meaning to become more accurate then accuse me of twisting words, damn hypocrite!

Want to make a fool of yourself defending that twist? Go ahead, you have the stage!

RB: "Playing games with someone's name like that just further shows your disrepect. Your saying you hadn't done it shows your dishonesty."

More deception. You're saying "calling Byron other names" instead of saying "mispelling Byron's name" was where the dishonesty lies.

Then you state that "you (Scott) aren't interested in helping people learn to kill more coyotes".

I see you conveniently diverted a feeble attempt at trying to defend that BOLD FACED LIE. At least you are that smart. Then lecture me on dishonesty??? What a hypocrite!

RB: "That choice would be that you've never written anything that I've seen that was new to me. Sorry, man. You aren't the only one with plenty of answers to the wiley ol' coyote."

Another dishonest statement. I never suggested I was the only one with plenty of answers to the Wiley Ol' coyote". To the contrary, I have given credit to many of the guys that I have learned from.

RB: "Tell me again that you don't lie or play games???"

Like I said Randy, talk is cheap! Your "supposed" lie has been addressed above.

RB: "I have got ask where in the world you assumed he was talking about you!?!?! He never mentioned your name at all."

Two can play at that game. Reading through this thread, a few words come to mind, "insecure, whiny, fragile supercharged ego, deceptive, liar, arrogant, desperate, inexperienced, yada, yada"

GOSH RANDY, WHY SO DEFENSIVE, I NEVER MENTIONED YOUR NAME DID I?

RB: "I've beaten this dead horse all I intend to. You may have the last word. Give it your best shot."

RB: "I've been around these boards too long to let this kind of thing get to me personally."

How many posts ago was that? You can't even be honest with yourself. You can't even drop it after I gave you the opportunity. You have to split the hair between "calling Byron other names" and "name calling". LOL! I'm sorry but that really is funny.

You're a dandy!

You think you can salvage something out of this post to save your sinking ship?

Here, I'll end this post with another of your outrageous statements:

RB: "I suppose that to give credit where credit is due, my next video will be two scenes of coyotes getting killed and 72.5 minutes of credits thanking everyone who ever taught me anything. Think it'll be a good seller????"

That's an amazing statement!

I can't think of how many Oscar or CMA awards shows I have watched and I've never seen credits take 72.5 minutes particularly with someone who claims they haven't learned anything from any of my posts.

You're something else Randy!

~SH~

[ December 31, 2005, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 31, 2005, 09:27 AM:
 

quote:

---

"Hell, just as an example of his disrepectful self, he called Byron numerous other names all the way though."

---

Randy, I'm old and slow and my memory isn't what it used to be. Can you show me specifically where Scott has called Byron a derogatory name? In this thread, somewhere? Specifically, where a reasonable man would assume that Scott is talking about Byron, while not actually using his name; such as "Byron is a jerk". That would violate my Board policy of not allowing personal attacks. It would take me (way) too long to go over the entire thread. If you could, point me in the right direct, I'd be grateful. Thanks.

Good hunting. LB

PS I've been asked to award special member status to everyone that has read every single post in this "train wreck". Hmmm? How could I do that?

edited for spelling. Please excuse

[ December 31, 2005, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on December 31, 2005, 10:05 AM:
 
Thanks Varmint Hunter, but you know...for some reason I sure am feeling like I would want Scott and Randy both on my side of the next arguement I start.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 31, 2005, 10:23 AM:
 
Yeah. You are rght about that, Gerald. Both those guys are excellent masturbators, eh I mean superior debaters. LB
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on December 31, 2005, 10:52 AM:
 
Gerald,

Very well said.I can see all of the points you made.As far as hunting as a whole,I think it has already headed in the direction you talked about.Big Money is the name of the game and us "average Joes" are just hanging around for the scraps.LOL

One thing is for sure though.With the many many new "wannabe callers" to the sport of predator hunting,it's made me a better caller,because I am constantally adapting and refining my calling to compensate for the pressure of the new "inexperienced" callers.

And Like MOST of the guys on here that have seasoned knowledge,I've become VERY tight lipped about the information I give out.Once Burned twice shy.LOL Good Hunting Chad
 

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Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on December 31, 2005, 11:01 AM:
 
From the very start of this thread I've had a currently popular monotonous 3 minute 30 second song - that plays every 30 seconds on the radio - running through my mind. It says something like," falling is easy, it's getting back up that becomes the problem, becomes the problem." That said in a grossly monotonous voice.

Somewhere in the middle of that monotony the song states that "you have become the problem, become the problem..." Kinda where we're at.

Being a bit of a music fan I know that there is a message within most popular songs. The sad part is that when the monotony (sp?) continues on to the point of saying that "you've solved the problem, solved the probbbblem" I've done tuned it out. Kinda like this thread.

Gerald made a brilliant and very tactful post up above a bit. Everybody ought to read it and then think about what they've posted - not what someone else put out. I'd like to hear the "then you've solved the problem, solved, the problem" part of the afore mentioned song on this thread.

I realize that that makes no sense unless you've heard that annoying tune. No skin off my back, I'll just revert to the Stones and "I can't get no....."
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on December 31, 2005, 11:12 AM:
 
Leonard,

Yup, I can FEEL it. I'll never forget it's there.

Every time I post I have to check myself, and I never ever "let it all hang out" anymore.

I don't think I feel compelled, the same way Randy does, I am not defending myself.
To use Lance's analogy, even though I might get thrown right into the dirt, I still want my chance to "ride the bull".

Just like riding bulls as a kid, if I can, I laugh when I get up and brush myself off... and cowboy up, and get ready for my next turn.

I sucked at jr rodeo, and I never went on to ride the PBA, but I am damn proud of the fact that I never gave up.
Sometimes it hurt, and I cried, but I never walked away.

Q,

Sorry to ruin your night's sleep.

quote:

---

The respect I appreciate most happens at trapping and hunting conventions.

It feels good to get publicly recognized...

It also feels good to wade through a crowd of people huddled around Major Boddicker or John Graham or Vern Howey to see them stop what ever they are doing immediately... address me by my first name and ask, “How are you doing Quinton?...

---

That pretty much says it all, how you are, says a lot to me about what you are.

That you have your facts about me all wrong, and assume you know who I am because of that, also says a lot.

If I said (or more importantly TYPED) "it's raining again today" for 92 days in a row, and it had rained for the last 92 days in a row, is that whining? Or is that stating the facts?

92 days is the record here. Just a fact.

I didn't fracture my skull rockclimbing, I was hit by a drunk driver, on my motorcycle.
It wasn't my fault, I left a one foot long skid mark, I had no time to even react.
I said "OH..." (didn't even get to say shit) and there was a big flash like in the cartoons!
The next thing I knew, the paramedic was backing away from me, with defibulator paddles in his hands "saying we got him back!".

The excessively large sum of money inherited, do to the death of a loved one, has nothing to do with my head injury, or my perfectly good job at the excavating company.
I'd give every fricken dime back in a heartbeat, but it don't work that way.
I understand that you work hard, just like I do, and I at least respect that about you.
That you can't find it in yourself to extend me that same courtesy, also says a lot.

If you wanna grab the bull by the horns, at least make sure you know which end the horns are on, huh? Get your facts straight.

In the few years I been kickin' around the hunting boards, I have learned to be a better person, and have improved my people skills a lot.
I think that says a lot about what I am.

My sig line is from an inside joke, from when many of us used the chat. It's sorta about how I got here (on HM), and about how you "know it alls" need an idiot like me (so you can feel superior), who can take being the idiot without giving up.

The joke was... Leonard got Locohead for the court jester, and me, to be the village idiot.

When I am not around here anymore, I wonder if my village will miss me or not?

Krusty
 

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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on December 31, 2005, 12:16 PM:
 
Hey Krusty,

Do you like to swig tequela and dance in the smoke as much as Locohead does?
 

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Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on December 31, 2005, 12:28 PM:
 
I cant help but wonder. How long will it be before we see a Country Western singing star, or a NASCAR driver on a predator video". Well at least a worn out ball player.

Wow I can see the check inn's now. Laser light shows, Shiny metal flake 4 X 4's lining up.

Get ready ESPN were coming and in hot pursuit of BASS MASTERS.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 31, 2005, 12:56 PM:
 
I just watched Mark Zepp's video. With all of the statements and charges within this thread, of course, I had that in mind as I watched. Forgive me Mark. We have never met, but suddenly I realized that I was looking at the predator hunting version of Home Shopping Network!

You have to watch it to know what I'm talkng about. Commercials and a rehash of every coyote video you have ever seen, with scores of friends. I just had to wonder if this is the sort of thing that Scott has in mind, or maybe it was ***** in his golf cart hunting with ****** *******? Just jerking your chain, *****. Don't get ornry!

Good hunting. LB

[ December 31, 2005, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on December 31, 2005, 01:26 PM:
 
Ya But Leonard,you got to see the Big man work the dogs.
 

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Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on December 31, 2005, 01:29 PM:
 
I have an idea about videos... Don't buy them.

I've bought two and can give pretty favorable reviews. I'm done.
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on December 31, 2005, 01:46 PM:
 
I have an idea about videos. If you are looking for an instructional video check out the credentials and experience of the "flavor of the month" video before buying. If you are looking for entertainment, they all have entertainment value. Randy Anderson knocked it out of the park for entertainment value. Merv Griswold showed the value of decoy dogs for summer time ADC work. Rookie callers tried it in the fall with young coyotes and wondered why the dogs run the coyotes out of the country. The why is just as important as the how.

The real good instructional videos are few and far between. Some even advocate calling with the wind, which will put you years behind in the normal habitat conditions of SD, ND, NE, MT, & WY.

~SH~
 

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Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on December 31, 2005, 02:14 PM:
 
Leonard,

You wrote: "Randy, I'm old and slow and my memory isn't what it used to be. Can you show me specifically where Scott has called Byron a derogatory name? In this thread, somewhere? "

I know you are smarter than that and you just sent out a tidbit of bait to see if I'd bite.

My posts never said "derogatory" nor did it ever say "calling names." The idea that I had said that came from Scott. I said he was disrespectful of Byron by not calling him by the right name. It would be no different than if I addressed Scott by *Scat* or something and then said Oopps, I misspelled it. Go through Scott's posts, he actually spells quite well. I don't buy for a second that he didn't know how to spell B-Y-R-O-N. It's not too hard.

It's common courtesy to call someone by the right name and only shows respect, even for an adversary. I could even agree that he may have misspelled his name if he did it once or twice. But, several times and several different ways just doesn't fly as an excuse.

Scott,

Your last post was pretty dismal. I thought you had more spunk and smarts in ya. You got caught and you don't like it. Cry to someone else, your excuses aren't flying.

To respond to that garbage would be giving some credence to it. It doesn't deserve it so I'll pass. If you come up with something that's honest and not twisted, I'll be glad to continue this discourse.

[ December 31, 2005, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: Randy Buker ]
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on December 31, 2005, 02:16 PM:
 
No Way Scott.I'm not even tempted.LOL
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on December 31, 2005, 02:21 PM:
 
I was looking at the video selection at Sportsman's Warehouse today. They have a very, very large selection and range in price from $49.95 for 600 Nitro Express production videos $9 for lesser known predator videos. When I asked how they determine the price I was told that the purchaser is told the maximum amount the store will pay based on quality.
 

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Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on December 31, 2005, 02:22 PM:
 
Higgins,

How in the hell did you deal with this in the old days. I'm trying to find something to "fall in love" with Scott over and I'm having a hell of a time.



Rich, regarding price... I don't think that's true. Their job is not to decide which videos are quality. Their job is to carry videos that will sell the most. They pass on the poor once completely because they don't think they'll sell. They pass completely on the ones that for such a small niche that they don't think they will sell very many of.

[ December 31, 2005, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: Randy Buker ]
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on December 31, 2005, 02:38 PM:
 
Oh I forgot a couple things...

Q,

You say if I tried to shoot myself "I'd F#%@ that up too".

You seem to inferr that I have done so in the past.
Can you name one time, coyote hunting or otherwise, that I F#%@ed up anything that was within my control?

I know of one time I totally did (and missed a coyote), but I'll take the 5th, I don't have to incriminate myself and say when it was.

I do have other interests, and I did say I'd pretty much thrown in the towel on calling coyotes close to home.
I'll keep workin' the clearcuts close to home, and I'll be even more suprised than the coyote, if I ever put a bullet in one around here.

I won't be suprised when I call in another bear, lion, or bobcat though.

Speaking of other hobbies, I gotta get back to work on my duck boat, I want to go duck hunting (since it's raining) tomorrow.

Tim,

In no way, shape, or form, am I up to Loco's job (anymore).
It is awesome to work with the best, we both do our jobs pretty well, if you ask me.

Krusty
 

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Posted by brad h (Member # 57) on December 31, 2005, 02:56 PM:
 
Randy,
How and when is the price of the less expensive ones determined then?

Maybe some get deemed slow movers after some shelf time bringing the price down, but they don't all start out the same.

The shorter product promotional ones seem less expensive right off the bat in comparison to the 3-4 hour Randy Anderson videos.

Quality, length, and content would determine the initial price I would think.

Brad
 

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Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on December 31, 2005, 03:06 PM:
 
Brad,

As I mentioned, they try to determine what will be good sellers. I suppose somewhere in there they have to go with some kind of "quality" issue. When I was marketing our video to the stores they were hesitant before they even saw them because night hunting isn't as popular as daytime hunting. They informed us up front that they'd be priced lower based on that fact and they hadn't even seen a copy yet.

Randy
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 31, 2005, 03:43 PM:
 
In my own misguided attempt at having the last word on this train wreck, Leonard said:

quote:

---

Both those guys are excellent masturbators, eh I mean superior debaters

---

I think you were right the first time around. LOL Everyone just keeps doing their own thing in their own little corner, herkin' and jerkin', with their eye on the ultimate goal of dominatorical (new word!) superiority, with little regard to what anyone else is saying or doing, intent in gaining only their own personal satisfaction. In the end, when all is said and done, everyone will be sitting around, wasted and out of breath, knowing for a fact that they feel good about only themselves and they don't care if anyone else got "their's".

Just an observation. I'll shut up now.
 

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Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on December 31, 2005, 05:12 PM:
 
Now I don’t want to sound insensitive krusty but I’ll bet you a dollar you would F@#$ it up. So until you prove me wrong I will stick to my guns. BTW Masturbating will make you go blind. Drunk driver? Sheesh But I guess with out a job, a girl friend and 92 consecutive days of rain; what else is a guy to do?

Honestly krusty, I had never heard you had bran damage. I just assumed. No hard feelings eh?

Good hunting

Q,
 

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Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on December 31, 2005, 05:34 PM:
 
Scott, I went up against a true "Fast Buck artist" in the early 90's. He pirated 15 of our sounds and was representing them as "good as Johnny Stewarts" in his national sales efforts. He was the epitome of a fast buck artist. In that legal battle I became aware of several other industries he had done the very same thing to. Everything from hardware products to Barbecue grills.

I do not consider someone who has to fund, produce and then market a DVD from scratch, a fast buck artist. I know the story behind several of these guys and simply can not support an arguement that they are anything but entreprenuers trying to capitalize on an opportunity that happens to deal with something they love and enjoy doing.

One of the TPP twins had come by my office years before his first effort at videos to talk coyotes. In a recent email, he reminded me of the moutchcall I gave him when we talked and he simply wanted to thank me for being willing to try and help him. I do not come close to feeling that he is taking credit for anything I may have suggested that day.

I had the opportunity to ride for thirty hours in my suburban with Byron to the HM campout and got to share quite a few stories back and forth. I think I know quite a bit about his background. I like running with good dogs and I consider Byron about as good as some of the best dogs I have ever hunted with. I trust he will not misinterpret that comment and you will understand the concept.

I know Randy from our conversing on the phone and over the internet. I thought well enough of his experience and eagerness to ask him to be one of our testers for the failed BushWhacker project. I think I will send both of you a copy of Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People.

I know Mark Zepp and you won't find a nicer guy. I have met with and talked with Mark for years at our big trade shows. I know of his struggle to do the video. The time he took to shoot it and the concern he had for trying to make it informational as well as entertaining. If he deserves the title "Coyote Pimp" it is only because of that gaudy Pimp coat he wears on the video jacket picture. I wrag on him about that and he just smiles a big ol' teddy bear smile. I felt sorry for Mark upon reading Leonard's cruel words.

I like you a bunch Leonard but that was the second thing you have said that makes me want to give you a big spankin. I am not going to let you hide behind this Don Rickles approach to debate. He was caustic, cynical and acidic in his "humor". He would cut to the bone and then hide behind "I am only a comedian". I found myself using that kind of approach to humor in my marriage 30 years ago until I found out that under my wifes forced smiles was a deep hurt that was nothing but destructive. Don't take those words too hard Leonard, I will get over it eventually.

I am personally happy for all of these guys that they have been able to live out their dream and have made it into this market. I for one, am not afraid of them as competitors. I welcome new competitors...if they reveal themselves to be honest and possessing of some character. I have run into many that have not been of good character. Some that you probably have bought some product from. If I could wave a magic wand and replace all of the dishonest competitors we have dealt with over the years with the honest new ones,the turnover would be shocking to you.

I went back and re-read this whole thread again today and feel that things have gotten way out of hand to the detriment of some on both sides. I honestly feel that all of you guys would enjoy hunting with each other if given the opportunity. Of course, it would probably need to be under my supervision.

P.S. I have hunted with Jay N. also... and he is Ok too.

[ December 31, 2005, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on December 31, 2005, 05:49 PM:
 
Q,

What else is a guy to do? Other than what? Shoot myself in the head?

Learn to read, or write, or both, dude.

I HAVE a good job, I have a really great girlfriend (same one for 22 years), and I don't mind that it once rained for 92 consecutive days.

Leonard said Scott and Randy were masturbators... is that what happened to your vision?
Mine is 20/20.
But thanks for the warning.

My bran is fine, and so is MY brain... you better bring a lunch and flashlight if you wanna have a battle of wits with me, dipshit.

Krusty
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 31, 2005, 06:16 PM:
 
Okay, Gerald. Not my finest moment.

But, a true expression of my feelings. Mark Zepp is probably a great person, but I have a problem with his approach. If I buy a video, I expect entertainment, or I expect knowledge, maybe a little of both? That's all I'm saying. I don't buy a product and expect to endure that many plugs and commercials. That's what it should say on the jacket. Not, 40 kills; there should be a disclaimer: : "Warning, 40 commercials"

That's my opinion, and, (I promise you) you are not big enough to spank me for expressing my opinion.

Mark, if you are out there, I apologize for speaking my mind. Please consider this constructive criticizm.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 31, 2005, 06:22 PM:
 
I may just have to get to that next HM hunt since it appears that it's gonna be a big ol' fashioned ass whoopin'.

Gerald will be spankin' on Leonard while Leonard's whacking him with his crutch or his walker or whatever prothetic limb he might have at the time.

On the other side of the fire, Scott and Randy will be trying to talk each other to death.

While somewhere just beyond the glow of the campfire, it'll be the battle of the consonants: Q vs. K.

The rest of us will just be sitting around, drinking our beer, wrecking our necks switching from one dust up to the next trying not to miss a thing.

Let's set dates soon. A definite "must see".

Oh, and Krusty, I don't think adding the " " at the end did much to hide your true feelings.
 

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Posted by Todd Woodall (Member # 439) on December 31, 2005, 06:44 PM:
 
Hey Gerald,

I always wanted a brother, and you gave me a twin!! Thanks man, I will look at Jeff in a whole new light now.
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on December 31, 2005, 06:56 PM:
 
Now THAT`S funny Lance!!

Gerald, I`ve used JS products for some 18 years or so but that`s not why I like you, I don`t know if you`ve had a 100 coyote season to supposedly "earn" my respect, it wouldn`t matter much to me anyhow, but you ARE an honest man who wears his heart on his sleeve for the whole world to see & those are priceless qualities in a man. Reading your words always makes me stop & think a while.

[ December 31, 2005, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: JD ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 31, 2005, 08:06 PM:
 
I forgot to ask what was my other offense, Gerald?

I will tell you this much. I have not said any where near what I would like to say on this whole subject, or express my true feelings. And, ( believe this if you want) it's because I try to be somewhat polite, while still being opinionated. Don Rickles? I'm like Don Rickles? (sob)

That hurts, Gerald. I'm a sensitive human being....calling a spade a spade.

Good hunting. LB

Happy New Year, everybody!
 

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Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on December 31, 2005, 08:11 PM:
 
Leonard, I honestly do not remember the Ads. Has Mark done a second video? Could we be talkng about two different videos? I will have to dig it out and watch it again. I forgive you big guy.

Lance, now thats a good one no matter who you are. Thanks for the laugh.

JD, thanks for the thought. If you are looking to me for a 100 dog year you are going to be looking for a long time. Dad nor I have ever come close to that. We were too busy making products and promoting a great way to enjoy the outdoors. I look to what a man has in his heart and mind to earn my respect. It is what comes from those two things that determine his actions and ultimately determine his accomplishments in life, good or bad.

I left this thread earlier and channel surfed across some Ultimate Fighting on the Spike network. I left it expecting an even bloodier mess on this thread but am pleased to read some great humor and engage in some civil conversation. That is a good way to end the day. I am going to bed. Good Night Grandpa...good night John Boy.
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on December 31, 2005, 10:07 PM:
 
Lance,

Part of how I got to be smart, was by not letting big dumb F#.... umm, guys like Q ever get their hands on me. He'd snap me like a twig.
Besides my brawlin' days are long since over (there was a day when I'da gone toe to toe, and taken my ass whoopin' with gusto).

I actually meant the "dipshit " part in as friendly a way as can be, just like I'd say to one of my big dumb brothers.

I like Q, I get a lotta good laughs at his expense, he struggles as hard to get up a good burn, as I do to kill critters.
Every once in a while he'll come real close, but like me, he just can't seal the deal. LOL

Somethin' tells me he wasn't the captain of his high school debate team.

This is too easy,

Krusty

P.S. Oh yeah, happy new year, I been so busy with this stuff, and in the shop I plumb forgot.
 

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Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on January 01, 2006, 01:08 AM:
 
HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYBODY!!!!!!!

Gerald,

"I went back and re-read this whole thread again today and ..."

Holy Moly!!! I started 3 days ago to read this thread. I just this instant finished. I've been to bed now twice after 1:30am trying to get all caught up reading. I even printed out one whole page at a time and read it in the potty. 8 poops later (45 minutes at a time) and my wifey thinks now I'm The King Masturbator or whatever that gem of Leon's was. You the man Gerald!!!!

[ January 01, 2006, 01:10 AM: Message edited by: Locohead ]
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on January 01, 2006, 04:13 AM:
 
You'll go blind reading this thread, Danny. Maybe you oughtta read only as far as you need glasses. Either that, or tell the wifey it's erotica. Then again, with your apparant virility, maybe she's kinda hoping you'd take up debate for once and leave her alone.

Happy New Year, everyone.
 

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Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on January 01, 2006, 06:41 AM:
 
I cheated a little Locohead. I sped read the important ones concentrating on the main characters and skipped the unimportant ones. I was looking for and concentrating on the paragraphs and posts that are the most revealing.

That was a good post Locohead. Funny stuff.

Just pulling your leg Todd.

Scott, something about your definition or use of the word Prostitution, kept bothering me as you applied it to the discussion, so I went to my Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary and looked it up. It is one of those dictionaries that try to give an example of all of the uses of the word. In the definition of Prostitution, it used the word Base. I looked up the word base and wow, you should see the explanation and use of the word Base.

Prostitution - 1. Act or practice of prostituting the body; common lewdness of a woman, esp. for hire. 2. Act of setting one's self to sale, or of devoting to base or unworthy purposes what is in one's power.

I think it is # 2 that is appropriate for what you want to address. I will not put all of the descriptions of the word base here, but only what I think is appropriate for what you were trying to get at.

Base – 9. Morally low; ignoble. 10. Suitable to an inferior person or position; menial. 12. Eng. Law. Servile; being such as was the Villains; hence held by the villenage.
SYN. Dishonorable, Worthless, ignoble, infamous, sordid, degraded, foul, servile, despicable, contemptible, vile, mean, petty, small………..

I have tried to apply that description to your words “Exposure to coyote calling information via video and CD”. In my thinking was the thought that one would also have to throw in magazines, seminars, cable TV programs and any other medium that promotes or teaches the viewer or reader, how to call coyotes. This thought was thrown out earlier but overlooked or not addressed by the contributors to this thread. I don’t think that is what you are insinuating or trying to do; attack the whole industry, so I looked further.

In your response to Leonard’s request for your definition of “prostituting the sport”, you explain that it is “A person that degrades his talents for money”. As I have read these posts, it struck me that the definition of Prostitute or prostitution possibly applies more correctly to individuals who debases or degrades his talents, not someone who may have been unethical, dishonest or disingenuous in your opinion. The thought of that makes me quite uncomfortable, is that because I learned from my Dad and lots of others along the way, I hope that I have not “prostituted the sport” in my effort to promote it through Videos, DVDs, seminars, writing articles and various other ways.

I know you don’t apply that to the simple act of selling videos that promote specific products because you stated that. On a side note: I have never felt that the videos I have participated in smacked of blatant promotion of specific products per sea up until the HS DVDs and I have no control over that. I have a personal beef with that kind of stuff when it goes overboard as Leonard feels it did with Mark Zepp for example. But I know what you meant, so I looked further.

You mention that you participate in Contest Hunting. When I applied the definition of prostitute to that activity, I felt it possibly had more relevance there than it would with someone who takes information from someone who then represents it as his own. This is the part where it gets real dicey to address this. I am walking on broken glass doing this, but feel compelled to for the sake of the debate. Bear with me.

Would the perception that those who have a great talent at calling and killing coyotes for financial gain (WS agent?) might be prostituting that talent, be out of line? I will take it one step further, not really believing that myself, I still had to apply the definition to the act of a guy who has a great talent at killing coyotes he has gained through his employment, then participating in a contest outside of his employment for further financial gain, as possibly having better application to the definition of a prostitute? Don’t anybody get a wedgy over that one because I have participated in competition hunts and will do so again at some point.

Does that definition have more relevance to those who provide guiding services to Coyote Johns? I have also done that.

Your first post also raised these questions in my mind. Is a WS agent who uses an electronic caller doing so because he is unsure of his ability to use mouth calls? I always assumed it was because they wanted to use all of the tools available to get the job done faster and more completely.

Are you saying that Dad and Murray Burnham lacked confidence in their ability to call with a mouth call?

You wrote “What I see is more guys howling than there used to be and more use of distress calls. A lot of this is also due to the prostitution of coyote calling on videos and CDs.”

Then you wrote ”Considering the fact that most healthy coyote populations have 70% young coyotes of which most have never heard a commercial rabbit call before prime fur season, perhaps it's time to go back to rabbit calls to once again best the competition? Of course I'd always use howls for locating but I'm thinking I need another change up to keep an edge in areas of higher competition”.

I am confused. Have you never used distress calls in combination with your howling and are just now considering using that combination to keep up with the competition?
If so, does that mean that the CDs by others have actually promoted something valuable to the newbies that you yourself were not using?

Help me here Scott. I am not trying to conduct one-upmenship, but only want to get to the essence of what you object to. If some of the others who read this want to high five me for something I have written here, I won’t do it. That is not what I am trying to accomplish. Keep it civil guys.

[ January 01, 2006, 06:48 AM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on January 01, 2006, 09:48 AM:
 
Utah, you're pretty sharp! LOL! That was way too funny ("No way"....)! Hahaha! I'll be chuckling about that all day. I always did like you.

Gerald,

Since you still seem to be struggling with where my "ORIGINAL" concerns lied even after I have explained it numerous times, lets do this in reverse. I'll give you the accurate depiction of a prostitute in this arena and you can decide for yourself who fits the mold and where my concerns apply. Let me say again, it is not one of these factors but all of them rolled up into one that I find most repulsive.

1. The inexperienced selling someone else's experience.

This individual does not have the experience to even know where and when to apply the knowledge he has gained from someone with far more experience.

2. This person is more concered about their own financial gain and notoriety than providing good information or good entertainment.

The classic "look at me" video as opposed to the "look at this" video. Showboating, arrogant, and usually hyper.

3. Doesn't bother to show respect to the person or persons that have taught them what they have learned and in worse cases, will actually try to degrade a more experienced callers ideas because they are either too ignorant to know when and where the information applies or they think they can only build themselves up by running others down.

Take it all and wrap it up in one person Gerald. If you know or have known someone who fits that mold, than that is where the word "prostitute" applies FOR ME. This person and his actions degrade the sport. I have seen both the trapping and calling fraternities plagued with "fast buck artists".

You are right in the fact that these guys are usually short lived and there is nothing illegal about their activities. You are right in the fact that this will usually sort itself out but in the same token, I feel compelled to reveal the fact that they are out there knowing full well that my concerns will step on toes in the process. Why? Because I was once a victim of bad information from a fast buck artist many years ago and it took me a long time to sort it out because when you are young and starting out, you don't know who to believe.

Like I said, it behooves a young caller to check out the credentials and experience of those who are making videos to determine whether the information they are selling is based on the author's experience or the experience of someone else. If the video is not addressed as education and strictly for entertainment purposes, THERE IS NO PROBLEM with any video out there.

Now you seem to be coming to the defense of those who have become defensive on this site. If my concerns doesn't apply to them, then they had nothing to be concerned about. Not once did I mention anyone's name. The fact that some continue to remain defensive about this issue even after I have thoroughly explained myself bodes the question as to why?

Once asked for specifics, I explained myself repeatedly and did so again. At the same time, I'm not going to stand by as someone wants to twist what I meant into what they believe I meant. Thanks for asking instead of running off on an insecurity tangent Gerald.

Like I asked, what is more important here, what I meant or what someone else thinks I meant?

Any court has to wade through a lot of twist and spin to reach intent and interpretation of the law so spin and twist is fully expected in other arenas as well. It was no surprise to me that others would twist my intent and place their own interpretation on my words but I haven't lost focus nor have I changed my story. What I have done is to better explain myself.

I find it quite amazing that after repeating myself numerous times on what I feel constitutes a "prostitute" within in this industry and even after examples were provided from other experienced callers, some still struggle with my "intent"?

If you are looking for names, you wont get any. If I have something to say about someone, I will generally say it to them first. I've laid out the description of a prostitute as good as I can lay it out. By far, the most repulsive thing I have seen is information that was given from an experienced caller to a novice, in confidentiality, being degraded on a video by some "flash in the pan" that was too inexperienced to know how to apply the information.

This is about having the experience to know what you are talking about and this is about having respect for those who helped you reach a person's current level of knowledge. Nothing more, nothing less!

It's virtually impossible to address an issue like this without bruising someone's fragile ego and absorbing all the spin but if someone stops and thinks about respect and whether or not they have the experience to be saying what they are saying, then it was worth the effort to my way of thinking. I hate the thought of a novice caller being the victim of bad information from a "fast buck artist".

I didn't imagine that my thowing out one word ("prostitute") would lead to 10 pages of explanations and dealing with fragile egos but I'd say it again without *********** . I detest "fast buck artists", fakes and phonies because of the difficulties I had to overcome from the ones who deceived me when I was starting.

The topic that created problems for me was the issue of human scent and what you can and cannot do about it.

“A person that degrades his talents for money”

This actually has to be taken to the next step. "His talents" are not from his own experience so he is not only degrading his own talents with bad information but also the talents of the person who taught him because he's too inexperienced to know when and where the information applies.

Gerald, I have enough faith in you to believe that you will see my intentions for what they are instead of trying to misinterpret what I have stated. I think you know by now when and where my concerns apply and where they don't.

No matter the spin, my intentions could not be any more clear at this point.

Gerald: "Would the perception that those who have a great talent at calling and killing coyotes for financial gain (WS agent?) might be prostituting that talent, be out of line? I will take it one step further, not really believing that myself, I still had to apply the definition to the act of a guy who has a great talent at killing coyotes he has gained through his employment, then participating in a contest outside of his employment for further financial gain, as possibly having better application to the definition of a prostitute?"

Hahaha! Nice spin. If that's your opinion, you are certainly entitled to it but ironically, my success as a coyote caller and trapper was the primary reason I was hired by the state (not WS) as opposed to having gained the knowledge I have after my employment. Yes, I certainly gained knowledge through this job but I wasn't hired as a complete novice. This dog might not hunt to your satisfaction but he was worth turning out. LOL! I'm certainly not so naive as to chuck rocks and not expect some in return. I have no problems with self-evaluation so we can continue down this road as much as you like.

I was using coyote vocalizations before I was hired so you can't "successfully" use the argument that I took knowledge that I gained from working ADC to compete with the private sector in calling contests.

The argument that someone who kills coyotes 24/7 should not be competing with the private sector, has certainly been made and one of the reasons why I quit entering local contests where money was never involved. Some contests do not allow ADC agents to participate and others do. Some sports like to see how they stack up against those who do it for a living and believe me, there is as much talent in the private sector as there is in ADC circles and sometimes more.

When I compete in another state, I don't see any conflict and neither do other callers. Most of the best competitive callers like the added competition. I will only be participating in one contest this year that is well run and enforces their rules to create a level playing field.

Gerald: "Have you never used distress calls in combination with your howling and are just now considering using that combination to keep up with the competition?"

Let me be more specific about "distress calls". With the following explanation, I am also speaking from the standpoint of recreational "prime fur" hunting, not summertime ADC work.

Like most, I started out using mostly "wabbit scweams" in the early 70's calling redfox. As more coyotes moved into our area, I started getting more interested in calling coyotes. In the early 80's I took instruction from Bill Austin who took ADC tactics and commercialized them. Now before someone runs off on a tangent of trying to spin my original concern back in my face with this, Bill Austin had the experience and originality to back his knowledge and information. As time goes on, I start to realize just how much the man really did know despite his obvious shortcomings which eventually took his life.

After taking instructions from Bill Austin I started incorporating howling with "wabbit scweams". As time went on, I dropped the "wabbit scweams" and started using coyote distress calls in combination with howling year round because everyone else was using the "wabbit scweams". During the fur boom, I withnessed numerous educated coyotes turn tail and run once I switched from coyote vocalizations to "wabbit scweams" on the same stand.

As time went on and more and more callers picked up on coyote distress sounds and now that information is widespread. I'm "PARTIALLY" responsible for that for showing some who showed others who showed others, etc. etc.

Now that "coyote distress calls" are quite common, I have felt the need to switch to other distress calls, IN CERTAIN AREAS in combination with howling to maintain the edge in the chance that the coyotes I am calling have already been exposed to certain coyote distress vocalizations.

Once again Gerald, thanks for asking instead of running off on an tangent as some have. I'm sorry to hear that you also had to endure the wrath of a "fast buck artist". Sucks doesn't it?

I did too but from a different angle.

Good post!

~SH~

[ January 01, 2006, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 01, 2006, 11:20 AM:
 
Scott, before Buker gets in here and further accuses you of calling names; I want to point out that Gerald is spelled with a G, not a J. Could you please edit?

Gerald. Thank you for the above post. It does show that you will go to great effort to establish clarity. Something I don't have the patience to do, like when I asked Buker to show me where Scott had called somebody a name; for which I didn't get a clear answer, but that's okay, I get the drift.

Do a video that isn't about "me" but about other hunters that actually have all those years of experience and knowledge. That's one avenue for recognition, but it doesn't make you a giant among men, if you are looking for STATURE.

Anyway. I like your definition, Gerald and I like Scott's clarification. I don't see how anyone can be confused, at this point?

It is so interesting that some people sail through life on the strength of their personality. Fast talk, from a country boy spellbinder, prop up the lack of experience with fabrication, where indicated, focus on the personality, throw out a few borrowed ideas on camera and suddenly, (poof) we have a (widely) recognized authority, sharing the secrets of their success. This is all it takes. Bill Clinton did it, in much the same way. Jimmy Carter, country charmer, but no clue about running a country, he made it to the top of the heap.

I will say it again. I didn't know where Scott was heading, in the beginning, and although it has taken ten pages of babble, I think I finally see the picture. It's almost embarassing when you realize that all roads seem to point in the same direction.

Good hunting. LB

[ January 01, 2006, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Rob (Member # 75) on January 01, 2006, 11:51 AM:
 


[ May 03, 2006, 08:12 PM: Message edited by: Rob ]
 

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Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on January 01, 2006, 02:21 PM:
 
Leonard,

Now you are just playing games.

What a blatant game both of you have played with this one. I wasn't going to respond at all about this one until you added to it.

[ January 01, 2006, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 01, 2006, 03:13 PM:
 
Let's be clear, Buker. Historically, the only time you come over here is when you want to stir the pot, and you have finally tested my hospitality.

Do not ever accuse me of playing friggin' games in my own house.

Do you understand? I need a polite and contrite response: yes or no?
 

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Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on January 01, 2006, 03:13 PM:
 
Thanks for the reply Scott. It is clear to me that you have been wronged in the past and that is the fuel for this fire. I was hit a couple of times in reading your response that all you had to do was simply say this or that at a more appropriate time and this could have been diffused earlier.

I feel there were several oportunities where you could have closed the door to the speculation on some of the people involved here but it is my perception that you never did take that opportunity. It seemed to me as if you wanted to fuel the fire even more with your answers. Forgive me if I am wrong about that but it just seemed that way. Go ahead and point out why I am wrong on that and I will apologize for my misunderstanding.

About half way down your response I got the negative vibe that even you have committed the same grievous error that you accuse others of (not understanding or mispercieving). I have been guilty of that myself at times in the emotion of the discussion so it is not fatal with me.

You can rest assured Scott that I support you, WS Contest hunts and the like. I many times will take a devils advocate role in an argument simply to draw out responses that help, not hurt, as yours has done for me. In doing that I sometimes become the target but that is OK if it helps bring perspective.

We are on the same side. I just don't like your style of debate. It is unfair for you to leave the Mystery person dangling out there leaving open the door to speculation. It may not have been your intention but you are pretty good at it and it has worked well in this thread. If you had clarified in the beginning as you have in your last response this could have all been avoided. Maybe you did in several spots throughout 10 pages and a gazillion posts and it was easy to not connect the dots. By the way are you talking about Marty Stouffer...because I haven't got a clue who you are talking about.

Once again I have to berate the poor medium this forum is for discussions like these due to it's weaknesses and failures to provide a venue for clear discussion with understanding. It seems to me that you have misinterpreted me and possibly others intentions as well.

If you could only hear my voice and see the expression on my face you would understand that I am not your enemy, I am your ally.

[ January 01, 2006, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]
 

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Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on January 01, 2006, 03:26 PM:
 
Leonard,

I'm not sure why you edited my post. I answered the question you asked.

But, I do understand what you are saying. It is your house and I'll not accuse you of playing games. My intention was not to upset you. I apologize.

Randy

[ January 01, 2006, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: Randy Buker ]
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on January 01, 2006, 04:30 PM:
 
Gerald: "It is clear to me that you have been wronged in the past and that is the fuel for this fire."

It's not just me, others have been wronged too as Leonard and Varmit Hunter have pointed out but that is not the ONLY motive for the fire, I wouldn't like phonies even if I hadn't been misled by one/some.

Gerald: "I was hit a couple of times in reading your response that all you had to do was simply say this or that at a more appropriate time and this could have been diffused earlier."

I don't believe so. My posts create controversy because I don't pull any punches, I don't always explain my concerns as clearly as I should and some can't comprehend my concerns as clearly as they should. The only thing that would have difused the issue is never bringing it up. My guess is that some of my concerns with "fast buck artists" would have stepped on toes regardless.

There is two sides of communication. Explanation and comprehension. I admit that I am not the greatest at explaining things but I also see a comprehension problem here as well. How many times do I have to give my definition of a prostitute in this industry for SOME readers to understand it?

Gerald: "I feel there were several oportunities where you could have closed the door to the speculation on some of the people involved here but it is my perception that you never did take that opportunity. It seemed to me as if you wanted to fuel the fire even more with your answers. Forgive me if I am wrong about that but it just seemed that way."

Either my description fits an individual or it doesn't. Only the individual reading this knows whether they qualify for my definition of an industry prostitute or not. How some reacted to the issue only lead to further suspicion.

Gerald: "About half way down your response I got the negative vibe that even you have committed the same grievous error that you accuse others of (not understanding or mispercieving)."

I guess I don't know exactly what you are referring to but yes, I have misunderstood people's intentions before too. I think we are all guilty of that.

Misunderstanding, is only ONE HALF OF ONE of my concerns with industry prostitutes. I never sold someone a misunderstanding of someone else's knowledge which takes misunderstanding to another level.

You are comparing apples (misunderstanding) to oranges (misunderstanding and selling that misunderstanding) so I don't get your point.

Gerald: "I many times will take a devils advocate role in an argument simply to draw out responses that help, not hurt, as yours has done for me. In doing that I sometimes become the target but that is OK if it helps bring perspective."

That speaks of your wisdom. Randy Buker got one thing right when he said I don't have a lot of tact. He's right but at the same time I really don't care either WITH THIS ISSUE. If someone doesn't know what I meant, they should ask instead of assuming like Leonard did (asked).

Some folks only hear what they want to hear.

Gerald: "We are on the same side. I just don't like your style of debate."

That's fine, I don't care for my style of debate sometimes either but that's my style just the same. I don't mind ruffling feathers to make a point that I feel is important to make.

Gerald: "It is unfair for you to leave the Mystery person dangling out there leaving open the door to speculation. It may not have been your intention but you are pretty good at it and it has worked well in this thread. If you had clarified in the beginning as you have in your last response this could have all been avoided."

Like I said Gerald, only the reader knows whether they are guilty of prostituting this sport. If they are not, they have nothing to worry about. Confrontation cannot be avoided with someone who believes their parade was rained on. The reaction is what it is as was my presentation. I apologize for nothing. I'm not into flowery responses and hand holding. I walk alone. If people don't like me, I don't care.

Gerald: "Once again I have to berate the poor medium this forum is for discussions like these due to it's weaknesses and failures to provide a venue for clear discussion with understanding."

Gerald: "If you could only hear my voice and see the expression on my face you would understand that I am not your enemy, I am your ally."

You are right, the internet isn't a good medium for discussion. I found out a long time ago that it was smart not to judge a man by cheap words on a computer screen and I try not to. I do judge their reactions to my statements though but that is only one small part of who that person is.

I never did look at you as "my enemy", I look at you as someone who is trying to reach an understanding of my concerns on this issue and prevent hard feelings of others. That is admirable but if someone fits my definition of a prostitute, they deserve to get their toes stepped on.

Gerald: "It seems to me that you have misinterpreted me and possibly others intentions as well."

Not everything is as it appears.

Give me an example of where you feel I misinterpreted you? If that is the case, I suggest you take your exact quote and my response and show me where you believe I misinterpreted you because I don't see it like that nor do I see you as an enemy. I have no idea where that may have came from.

~SH~

[ January 01, 2006, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 01, 2006, 06:02 PM:
 
HELLO? He means you are a $hit stirrer, first class.
 

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Posted by Bill Martz (Member # 378) on January 01, 2006, 07:38 PM:
 
Hello Boys

I think the name of this thread should be changed to the "Battle of the coyote gods". All I can say is that I am mesmerized.

Bill Martz
 

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Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on January 01, 2006, 07:42 PM:
 
Oh God... Now look what we've done....
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 01, 2006, 08:12 PM:
 
Welcome, Bill. I watched your video last night. You have some damned fine looking coyotes and some sorry shooters in New Hampshire.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on January 01, 2006, 08:16 PM:
 
Juvenile of me, I know, but I just wanted to get a post in on this thread. See if we can push it to 11 pages.

- DAA (a garden variety purely average recreational caller and maker of extremely bloody videos who has nothing unique or original to offer)
 

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Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on January 01, 2006, 08:19 PM:
 
Scott, I felt the tone and your take on me turned south when you characterize my words as spin. I guess you are partially correct as it could be apllied to any words written in the devils advocate role. I must watch too much of Bill O'Rielly. I didn't want to be thrown in the role of spinning anything.

I do understand where you are coming from. Maybe if you tone down the "I don't pull any punches tact" the controversy would not follow, as it apparently does listening to yours and others references to how that seems to happen to you alot. Isn't that what Randy is accused of?

Maybe it is your interpretation of what prostitution is that stirs the pot. I think you will not change your interpretation of what an industry prostitute or a fast buck artist is so I am not going to beat that dead horse any longer. Mine is different and we will just have to agree to disagree on that one.

OK, you rebutt me one more time and then we go hunting together....your place or mine.
 

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Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on January 01, 2006, 08:32 PM:
 
Dave, I just thought this was a unusual post up to now.

For the first time on this board. I find myself disagreeing with you. The words "Average recreational caller", and "nothing unique or original to offer". Do not belong in the same paragraph as DAA. That's like saying John Glen was a pretty fair airplane pilot.
 

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Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on January 01, 2006, 08:41 PM:
 
Oh yea Leonard, you wanted to know what the first statement was, well....

"Out here, we are third generation, Texas is in the dark ages, in comparison."

If you had said that before the campout, I would have made sure that stinkin coyote was buried under your cot.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 01, 2006, 09:21 PM:
 
I agree with Ronnie. Welcome, Dave and make yourself at home. You have your head screwed on pretty straight, in my opinion. You have an enormous amount of firearms knowledge for a young man. For any age.

Gerald, that coyote (just barely) buried under Rich Higgins Truck with him sleeping inside was so mean and so funny! You would do that to me?

Okay, did I exagerate a little bit, on the third generation, or what? I still see some retro methods coming out of the Lone Star State. Of course, when I wrote it, I was not speaking about you.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on January 02, 2006, 01:19 AM:
 
I have the unique perspective of having hunted with many of you guys.
Of having bumped heads with many of you guys.
Of having learned from and/or taught many of you guys.
Of being entertained by the "PASSION" of many of you guys over the course of 2005.
All of you gentlemen make me look forward to 2006!!
Thank you all, and HAPPY NEW YEAR to all of you.
Kindred spirits all.
 

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Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on January 02, 2006, 03:26 AM:
 
Happy New Year Rich and the rest of the gang.

I actually wasn't thinking of me Leonard but anyway you know I don't expect any special treatment from you or anyone else on this board.

I am going to spend less time on the boards for the next couple of days. I am down to crunch time in my preperations for the PM hunt. I have been putting together a Powerpoint program on the history of Dad and the company. I hope I have the opportunity to show it to you some day. I go all the way back to his childhood days.

My Mother provided me some stuff that came out of one of those boxes that are tucked away in the back of the closet. It had stuff I had never seen before. That was a real treat for me.

I will be on the road Wednsday night. My travel plans have been made around the need to be in the motel room early enough to watch Texans from the "Dark Ages" kick some left coast Californicaters team that is the best money can buy out there in that sea of Liberal misfits.

I'm sorry for that outburst Leonard, but the tension from this thread had just built up to the breaking point and I figured that might help me fit in a little better with your rough and tumble crowd.
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on January 02, 2006, 07:02 AM:
 
Gerald: "OK, you rebutt me one more time and then we go hunting together....your place or mine."

Nothing to rebutt. My place first!

~SH~
 

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Posted by pup (Member # 90) on January 02, 2006, 09:19 AM:
 
Oh my ,,,,,,,!!!! Oh my.......!!!

What has been done here? And to think that I had to spend an hour catching up on this. The crazy thing is I have a question.



I still could be considered the next generation at the age of 40. I have been shown a few things, but have never been told to keep my mouth shut. I have learned many things that were not told, but just close observations of my own. One of the things that my Dad got to sink in, was to shut my mouth and watch.

If I want the dvd to sell, shouldn't I make it as entertaining as possible, whether it includes instruction, or just footage. Will I be thrown into the category just because I don't mind being in front of the camera. In my mind somebody has to do it, and seeing as I bought the camera, bi-pod, batteries, etc. why shouldn't it be me.)

OR will my thought of maybe somebody just might like to see a few hunts of ours, be misconstrued as an attempt make money.

I do know that I or my hunting partner hauled the camera every damn step of the way. We set up where we thought the coyote would come in and prepared for it. Sometimes it works and sometimes not, but we hauled that camera every damn time. Those of us that have done it and actually captured on film a coyote answering the call, can appreciate the time thought and effort placed in a dvd.

Scott,
If I compile the footage I have, (if I ever get the house done), and make a dvd. What do I do to keep from falling into your category of "prostituion of the industry" .

later pup
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on January 02, 2006, 09:33 AM:
 
Pup,

The DVD should be 2 hours long. No more. No less. The actual hunting footage portion, including instructional segments, should not be any longer than 12 minutes and 30 seconds. The balance - 1 hour, 47 minutes and 30 seconds, will be rolling credits, beginning with the doctor that spanked your butt bringing you into this world. Of course, you could start with thanking your folks for your conception. But, only if both they and you are comfortable with that. The idea here is to make sure no one comes away from the deal feeling slighted or the least bit uncomfortable. Work your way up thru your grade school teachers, football coach, the good folks at the company that built every truck you've ever owned, not to mention your rifle or shotgun. (Don't leave out the ammo people.)

You might want to consider thanking the NRA for obvious reasons, the AFL-CIO and teamsters for representing all the various laborers that built your many "toys". The people of Japan for building your video camera can't be left out.

And finally, but far from last, the coyotes, without whose contribution your video would not be possible. Good luck.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on January 02, 2006, 09:35 AM:
 
We did it!!!!

11 pages!!!

Pup, one last thought, remember that your contribution is the least significant to the project. After all, you're just pulling together the contributions of everyone else before you and slickly marketing it in one convenient, easy to peddle package. Can you imagine the confusion that would ensue if all the rest of us had to follow your life's road, as well as our own, to experience and benefit from those folks you've known. Total anarchy, man.

[ January 02, 2006, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
 

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Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on January 02, 2006, 09:40 AM:
 
Lance,

Just be sure I get some of the credit for these 11 pages. I sure worked hard to get it here.



Randy
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on January 02, 2006, 09:58 AM:
 
Yes, of course. I would especially like to thank both Randy and Scott for their contributions. Over and over again.
 

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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on January 02, 2006, 10:19 AM:
 

quote:

---

Tim, one last thought, remnember that your contribution is the least significant to the project.

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Huh???

What the hell did I do?
 

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Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on January 02, 2006, 10:21 AM:
 
Are you trying to start trouble Pup? I work so hard to finally get a hunt with Scott and end this thread and poof here you are with your questions. I had to put my lunch salad down to type this to boot.
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on January 02, 2006, 10:23 AM:
 
11 pages and you guys still don't get what Scott's trying to say.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on January 02, 2006, 11:03 AM:
 
Oops, Tim. My bad. I apologize. (Has been corrected.)

UTcaller,

I get it, but I think we'd better get used to it. Fact is, calling predators is on the cusp of becoming bigger than it's ever been before. I've said this for many years and see it going right down that road. I can understand the frustration that the ADC guys must have because let's face it, no one ever got paid to go out and kill problem ducks or pheasants. But what Scott points out is just going to become more and more prevalent as more ppl get into the industry and as the industry continues to cater to the almighty buck.

In the end, whan all this dust has cleared, the only things that will have been accomplished are that Scott will have said his piece, others will have more reason to not trust those they thought were in their corner up to now, and we'll have yet one more train wreck thread to look back at down the road. It sure as hell won't stop, or even slow down, the evolution of calling predators for public consumption. Just too much demand and interest out there.
 

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Posted by pup (Member # 90) on January 02, 2006, 11:13 AM:
 
Gerald,
No Sir! and my appologies for interupting your lunch.

I kinda felt like a bull that couldn't see the gate, I was hoping for them to send a bull or lead steer out of the catch pen to show the way.

Although my observation noted your technique of obtaining that hunt, I will not use it to obtain a hunt with him of my own, without gaining your permission, and/or giving you credit for it.

I am curious about Scott's solution, if he would indulge.

Thanks for the input Lance, duly noted.

Byron, you are a good man. I bought the first two and will gladly be ordering the latest two. You have a style that shouts Byron South, which was God given. Don't change a thing.

DAA, Thanks for the sound. Nothing to add, my tail
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on January 02, 2006, 12:31 PM:
 
Lance,

I don't think Scott or anyone else for that matter can change what has and is taking place in the predator hunting industry,both good and bad.I think Scott is just voicing his frustration with the "showboaters,prostitutes of the sport,and fast buck artists" in the industry.Where this thread went south is how some people took it as a personal attack on them and what they do.Granted Scott did not come out with alot of tact,but like he said that's not his style.And again NO names were mentioned.And as Scott likes to stir the pot in most debates he has he said "let your conscience be your guide".Then all hell broke loose.If people would just think about what he said in context and not think he was talking specifically to THEM,You might see what he's trying to say.I know first hand how it is to get your feathers ruffled when debating an issue with Scott,so I can see how/why this Thread caused such a stir.FWIW Chad
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 02, 2006, 12:54 PM:
 
I really don't see it, Chad? I wonder why some posts are ignored and some attract interest? Some can be attributed to Scott (Wiley E) It's been so long since he has posted, he needed assistance from the administrator to log on.

But, eleven pages? He has been willing and eagar to clarify every word he has used and yet, I guess that pup is still unsure how he might avoid being labeled as a prostitute, by Scott (I assume?) rather than the consuming public? I think he already said that you should let your conscience be your guide?

But, hey. Don't lose sight of the main thrust of his message. Go ahead and film some coyote action. But, if your credentials are flimsy, give credit where credit is due. It doesn't hurt to be honest about the source of your information. Pretty simple.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on January 02, 2006, 01:17 PM:
 
Leonard,

I think it is the negative that gets people to post/and gets the feathers ruffled.Cause like they say "opinions are like A$$H**** everyones got one". I truly have been entertained with this thread,and unlike some people I see the value in it.LOL If it makes someone stop and think before they make a video great, if not then "let your conscience be your guide".LOL

Good Hunting Chad
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 02, 2006, 01:32 PM:
 

quote:

---

Leonard,
I think it is the negative that gets people to post/and gets the feathers ruffled. UTcaller

---

You are undoubtedly correct, Chad. For instance, Lana South registered a couple days ago. She may be tempted to share her opinion with us?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on January 02, 2006, 02:03 PM:
 
Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.LOL
 

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Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on January 02, 2006, 02:58 PM:
 
The medium absolutely sucks for these kinds of discussions Leonard. So much is left to assumption, misinterpretation and conjecture when you read the flat one dimensional words on the screen. You don't get to see a face, hear inflection and a whole host of other attributes to conversational exchange.

Throw in admittedly poor communication skills, honest mistakes, poor judgement on all of our parts and you have a recipe for what has happened here. That does not even consider the intentional pot stirrers and the havoc they reek. Add factionalism, the mutual admiration societies and you have even a worse mess.

Occassional pity parties and other screwed up mental cases stirred in and it is more than one should have to be subjected to. It is what drove me off the boards years ago and may do again some day. And besides ....those stupid little symbols must not mean a whole hell of a lot to some people because they don't use them or they ignore it when people do use them.

The older I get the less time I have for dealing with it........there I said it.....whew.......hey.......that felt...pretty good. I feel a whole lot better after getting that off my chest......hey...now I understand why some people do that all the time.



[ January 02, 2006, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on January 02, 2006, 03:47 PM:
 
Where I agree that sometimes there can be bickering on huntmasters,I for one believe this to be one of if not the best hunting forums for predator calling on the net.Very seasoned callers with very good questions and advice.Where we lack the quantity of posters as some of the other forums have,there definitely is more quality here.GOOD QUESTIONS,GOOD ANSWERS,GOOD ADVICE.. PERIOD.....
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 02, 2006, 03:52 PM:
 
Gerald, I have never stood in the way of uncensored communication. There may be flaws in this medium, but it is all we have, for the present. Every once in a while, there seems to be a huge quarrel and people say what is on their mind. You must be aware that they are always using the back channels for the same reason, and it is generally a lot more direct.

I don't know what you are trying to convey, except you are angry at some of the comments, but that's life. You have a point of view, and so do the rest of the members.

I assure you, I value your contributions very much, glad that you choose to use this board, and am proud that you do. I am sorry that we are pulling you away from your powerpoint presentation. Huntmasters does not normally have a lot of bombthrowers, but we are not perfect.

I will tell you this much, I don't see this as good guys versus bad guys. I see people with honest differences of opinion and I don't have a problem with divergent opinion nor am I intimidated by views that do not coincide with my own. If it was me against the world, I'd stand my ground, and wish everybody the best of luck, because they are going to need it.

This entire subject will die a natural death, hand wringing or no, so don't fret. If you are suggesting that I shut it down, before every voice is heard, that won't happen. But, I sense that most everything worth saying has been said? And, (I grant you) a lot that didn't need saying.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on January 02, 2006, 04:02 PM:
 
Gotta keep you going Leonard, I see that you are about to break 5000 posts!!!!!!
 

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Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on January 02, 2006, 04:07 PM:
 
See I proved my point...didn't I? The little symbols mean nothing. I was not mad at all...I ended with a wink didn't I. That was an attempt to be humorous and it failed on the first person that read it. How can a serious discussion have any chance of surviving? HHhhmmmmnnnnnn.

Let me try this again.

After a soild day of staring at a laptop screen working and reworking powerpoint slides I just needed some relief Leonard. I"m OK....really.
 

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Posted by TheHuntedOne (Member # 623) on January 02, 2006, 04:46 PM:
 

quote:

---

Welcome, Bill. I watched your video last night. You have some damned fine looking coyotes and some sorry shooters in New Hampshire.

---

Whoa - hold on there Mr Leonard.

That was not nice at all You keep this stuff up and I will have to move to Vermont. Or maybe Maine.

Al
In New Hampshire
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 02, 2006, 05:00 PM:
 
Okay, you got me, Al. I assume there are some hunters in New Hampshire that can put a coyote on the ground, and that wasn't a fair dig. But, Bill himself was not very complimentary. That ten foot, (or yard) miss was a real jaw dropper. I'm surprised it made the cut? Nice looking country and nice looking animals.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 02, 2006, 05:04 PM:
 
You guys think I'm on the keyboard 24/7 but I'm actually watching a football game. That's about all I can do, I'm not getting around very well with this knee surgery. Sitting here in my sweats, rain, etc.

I have two sets of crutches at both ends of the house and a cane, in the middle.

Good hunting. LB

[ January 02, 2006, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on January 02, 2006, 09:17 PM:
 
pup: "If I compile the footage I have, (if I ever get the house done), and make a dvd. What do I do to keep from falling into your category of "prostituion of the industry"."

That's an honest question pup. Too bad the thread didn't start right here.

1. If your video is for entertainment purposes and not instructional, present it as such. State that it is not an instructional video then nobody will assume that it is an instructional video and it won't have to meet any expectations.

2. If your video is instructional, make sure you have enough experience with the information you are presenting to know that there is no misrepresentation. In other words, don't be teaching about things that you may not have any personal knowledge about.

For example, anyone that says that cover scents have value doesn't know a damn thing about coyotes and has never put scent screens to the test. When drug dogs are finding cocaine in cargo loads of fish, when bird dogs are pointing birds after taking a load of skunk in the face, when a bird dog can point a bird with a bird in it's mouth, don't be telling someone that understands coyotes how coyotes can't smell you through a skunk screen because it's bullsh*t. Information like that is totally misleading and only hurts the novice caller.

Make sure you can back what you are saying.

3. If your video is educational, always give credit to those who taught you out of respect for them. Nobody has to mention everyone's name that helped them along the way, just a simple, "I want to thank those of you who helped me, yada yada" and mention a few that helped you the most.

4. Be humble and show a desire to either entertain or to educate. Don't do a "look at me" video but rather a "look at this" video. Acknowledge your assets such as a heavy coyote population, lack of calling competition, great weather, etc. Don't be an arrogant jerk and social misfit like I am. LOL!

5. Always keep in mind that your circumstances may not be someone else's circumstances. For instance, calling with the wind might work in the Pinon Junipers of New Mexico but it isn't worth a crap in the northern states with different habitat. Full camoflauge might be important in certain habitats but less important than others.

One of the most knowledgeable coyote men I have had the privelage to meet, George Good, always answered a question with, "well, under my conditions with my coyotes.....yada yada". This disclaimer acknowledges the difference from one area to the next and how methods might vary from one area to the next.

6. Edit out the dragging guts, blown legs, wind blowing in the microphone, laughing at a crippling shot, and edit out the never ending "waaaah, waaaaah, waaaaah, waaaaah, waaaaah". A few "wabbit scweams" will more than make the point. Once an animal is spotted, then it's fine because a person can watch the reaction of the animal to certain sounds.

7. Have the Dahm triplets hold up your coyotes in the end.

Pretty simple!

~SH~

[ January 02, 2006, 09:31 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on January 02, 2006, 10:57 PM:
 
Sheeeesh! That would make one fine video. Get that house done man. I can't hardly wait to see yours!!!! Sounds down right perfect. So let's not just whine about the problem. Let's get it fixified. Hurry and get your house built and quit worrying about competing with your mentors. Make the damn video and give them credit while they're still alive to appreciate your gratitude. I'm sure you've got a lot to contribute and you could still keep your favorite tricks secret. I bet you'd make some money at it (I'm fairly certain you're not against making dough from a video endeavor [if I understand your point right]) I bet you'd have a lot of fun too. You might need something to do to replace all theat time you were sppending on your house.

One of the best things I've ever seen or heard on a video is that CLASSIC Randy Anderson SONG, "Come Little Coyote Come..." Sometimes that tune will get stuck in my brain and not come out until I re-watch the video! LOL

[ January 02, 2006, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: Locohead ]
 

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Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on January 03, 2006, 12:33 AM:
 
As hard as I can try, I still can’t get as worked up over this as Scott and others. It may be annoying that some people build them selves up off the work and experience of other hunters but in the end, who is to blame?

Leonard has in the past said “Keep your secret spots secrete. No matter how much you trust some one.” It has happened to him it has happened to me it has happened to everyone. When you let someone in on your honey holes you might as well count on it that they will be back or the person they tell about it will hunt there. In the end, who is really to blame? It is we for sharing the information. It is no wonder why Leonard is so secretive about a lot of his information.

It is not only that either. Take misting for example. Leonard has got nothing but grief over that little tidbit of information and for what? Sense he divulged the concept to the Internet he has done nothing but defend the usage of it to hunters with a fraction of his experience. LOL That is another good reason to be secretive.

If you are not parroting information like so many do it is hard for the general public to accept it. People are always begging for “information” but when they get something original they can’t accept it because they haven’t heard about it before. Go figure.

Someday a video with misting on it will be available by a “flash in the pan” type. Maybe even in the same video there will be mention of Dykem? The hero of the show will pass it along as one of his “secrets” of success and then the next guy that passes on the information will regarded it as common knowledge. Now every one here knows the real story behind Dykem and mist. The imposter will modestly offend some of us because he is using Leonards ideas as his own for no other reason than to make money and gain notoriety from the masses.

The story would change if the person would recognize Leonard as who he learned it from and enforce the information by saying….

“I have used “Leonard’s” magic mist for more than 10 years now and with over a thousand coyotes under my belt I can say with experience that this stuff can work for you. Now this is how you use it and this is the kind of results you should expect to get. You will see that it is not a magic bullet but in the end it will put a few more coyotes on your stretchers.”

Some might see it in prospective now. Scott and other old hunters see information that there friend or friends have discovered being cashed in on by third and fourth hand parties. They set there and think to them selves “Hey! I know where that idea came from!!! Who does this guy think he is selling it on TV as his own idea and not giving credit where credit is due!! What has this guy done or accomplished in his life to even think he can speak about the subject anyway?

In the end Leonard can’t do anything about misting or dykem or anything else he has contributed to the Internet crowed if it makes it to T.V. because he is the one who dropped the ball.

If your knowledge is out there and someone else is using it; well it is like crying over spilled milk. Just like your honey holes, what else can you expect? People are hungry for money and notoriety and will not mind stepping on a few toes to get it.

There is really not that much money in calling videos anyway. Randy Anderson is the only person that is really doing well in this industry as far as self-starters are concerned. A good friend of mine that I went to school with is the advertising director of Cabelas and he told me that Randy is still selling considerably more videos than ALL of the other calling videos COMBINED. I have another friend that is a floor manager at Scheels in Lincoln NE and it is the same story. Randy has the corner of the market and everyone else is small fish. Even at that I doubt Randy will be quitting his day job anytime soon. LOL

Guys like Randy will make more money off the videos in the major chain stores because 1. He ***** more and 2. Because of the fact he ***** more he can sell them to the stores for more money than the smaller fish.

Again, I can’t get to worked up about the deal because I guard my few secrets and will likely take them to the grave. Not having a dog in the fight I can see both sides but even at that there are only a small percentage of people that can apply the skills to their newfound knowledge. Take Krusy for example. LOL Ok I’ll stop there.

Good hunting.

Q,
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 03, 2006, 10:07 AM:
 
That was a good read, Quinton. I think you have a handle on my position as a minor innovator. Thanks for the kind words. LB
 

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Posted by dingo (Member # 774) on January 03, 2006, 11:42 AM:
 
hi leonard
this is my first post here and might be my last after you read what i have to say.
i followed this 11 pager and finally decided this needed to be said.
you dont know if your on foot or horseback!
the nasty reply to bill martz should show the world you dont know crap about coyotes or anything to do with them and YOUR the the coyote whore pimp slut period.
any one that watches the video would know %100 that those coyotes and all clips are not from nh but western canada.
geeeeeeez leonard how freakin dumb are you? you have shown the whole world who is pimpin what.
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on January 03, 2006, 12:14 PM:
 
Oops,Leonard
Now you went and done it.Pissed off another Bill Martz Fan...LOL
 

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Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on January 03, 2006, 12:22 PM:
 
Good God, it's going to go to 20 pages for sure now.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 03, 2006, 12:31 PM:
 
Welcome doesn't seem appropriate, dingo. In any case, <sigh> glad to have you on board.

I have never been to Sask. or New Hampshire, so I guess that makes me a big dummy if I don't know the difference?

Happily, you already sound like an idiot, so I will let your statements speak for you. You don't need my help.

Good hunting. LB

edit: sudden thought! Are you the guy in the video that can't shoot straight? I bet you are!

[ January 03, 2006, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 03, 2006, 12:33 PM:
 
They must have had a big snow storm in canada last night. That kid would surely be in school today otherwise.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on January 03, 2006, 01:48 PM:
 
From the looks of his message, he only rides the little bus for half days anyway, Rich.
 

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Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on January 03, 2006, 01:53 PM:
 
Cdog, can I borrow that one from time to time?
Even if I fail to properly credit you each time?
That is a classic!
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 03, 2006, 01:53 PM:
 
My reply to Bill was nasty? He said his shooter stunk, I was only agreeing with him.

Good hunting. LB

edit:

quote:

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posted January 01, 2006 07:38 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello Boys

I think the name of this thread should be changed to the "Battle of the coyote gods". All I can say is that I am mesmerized.

Bill Martz

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quote:

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posted January 01, 2006 08:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Welcome, Bill. I watched your video last night. You have some damned fine looking coyotes and some sorry shooters in New Hampshire.

Good hunting. LB

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[ January 03, 2006, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on January 03, 2006, 01:53 PM:
 
Boys,i think huntmasters is off to a bad start in 2006!

First time i hears a coyote called a whore pimp slut Damn things are smarter up that way,i guess...What the hell you been teaching them,fella?

When i hear a coyote speak english,i'll know where it came from That could explain why that coyote was missed!LOL

[ January 03, 2006, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: Melvin ]
 

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Posted by bigc (Member # 777) on January 05, 2006, 09:33 AM:
 
Do I get introuble if I skipped pages 6 through 11?

DAMNATION!!!!!

This is my frist post here on huntmasters, looks like I missed some stuff!

What seems overly apparent to me on many of these sites is that too many people have agendas. To me (which won't matter much to any of you), wiley has an agenda.

I admit, I skipped ahead over half of these pages, but it is clear to me. Wiley and a few others don't like others making money on this sport.

I wish I were as proficient at calling killing predators as some of these boys here. I do pretty well on my own, but Byron, Randy, Randy, Q, and many others are down right good! Sure they are in Texas and have access to lots of land....GREAT FOR THEM!!! When I go to Texas, I know who to look up to PAY to take me hunting, no problem!

It is the way of the world we live in right now, deal with it!!!

I too get paid a little to hunt and kill predators, guess where I learned what I know?
1-I went out and tried it!
2-I bought books and read any article I could find!
3-I bought VIDEOS!!!! (Oh no!!!!)
4-I kept trying!!!

Guss what, thanks Byron, Gerald, Randy, Randy and all the other guys who either wrote, filmed, taguht me! Send me a bill for what I owe you! Wait, I already paid, I bought those things!

I graduated from college (I know, you can't tell), I got and education, do you know what it cost me? A hell of a lot of money!!!!

Every teacher at school "learned" from someone else, now they make money at what they do? Those whores!!!

To me it is the SAME DAMN THING!!!!

I paid for every ounce of knowledge I have one way or the other, it is mine now and I can do with it what I wish!

If you don't like Byron, Randy, Randy, Gerald, Q, or whoever too bad. They are Damn fine teachers, I'd pay again and again for their knowledge.

I hope this makes sense?

Oh, and if you don't like them because they are all great looking guys, well then that is something else all together...lol!

C

[ January 05, 2006, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: bigc ]
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on January 05, 2006, 09:44 AM:
 
Whoa,bigc

Before you make a total A$$ of yourself I would go back and read the first 6 pages of the post.Otherwise you are totally taking things out of context.

Oh,by the way welcome to Huntmasters.
 

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Posted by bigc (Member # 777) on January 05, 2006, 10:06 AM:
 
Lol...making and arse of myself has never been a problem for me!!!

I did read the first 5-6 pages and that is the impression I got from them. I will read them again, but I doubt it will change. If I am mistaken, I will apologize.

oh, and thanks for the welcome!

C
 

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Posted by bigc (Member # 777) on January 05, 2006, 10:10 AM:
 
UTcaller, you from up north?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 05, 2006, 12:29 PM:
 
Welcome to the New Huntmasters, Mrs Buker. Glad to have you on board.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on January 05, 2006, 02:26 PM:
 
I get along pretty well with everyone here most of the time, (I think). I have nothing against Buker, Byron, or anyone else here, and there is plenty of knowledge around, but Mr. BigC needs to spend a little time with Wiley before he passes judgement. Scott is no doubt one of the most knowledgeable guys about coyotes that I have met, and I doubt if jelousy is a major motivator for him. He'll be back next week and I'll be curious how BigC holds up. This may go another 10 pages.
 

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Posted by bigc (Member # 777) on January 05, 2006, 03:36 PM:
 
I'll be the first to admit that I have never met Scott(wiley?). Like I said, if I am off base, I will apologize. So maybe jealous is the wrong word.

I guess I just disagree with the whole "prostituting " the sport? That would include prertty much everybody out there making money on predator hunting, including you Cal. You weren't the first one using dogs, but form what I hear made on hell of a video about it! Congrats my friend!

Speaking of which, are your dogs out of Mervs pups? I got one pup out opf Mervs line, I'm pretty hopeful!

I may of missed the whole "idea" of the discussion, and it appears that I may have missed some of it? I will read it all again, so much for rush judgement huh?

I guess I should have tested the water first huh, but now I fell in the pool. Oh well.

Also, I hold no ill will towards anyone, opinions are opinions.

C
 

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Posted by bigc (Member # 777) on January 05, 2006, 04:11 PM:
 
I edited my first post. Anything that had to do with being jealous is gone. I respect Cals opinon and apologize for my mistake there. However, it still seems that there is a dislike issue to me.

Hell, after I read the rest of the novel I may be recanting again?

C

Well, I finally finished reading, great read! Great great great read!!!

I am sticking with the dislike take. However, I might retract it all to save space on the world wide web!

[ January 05, 2006, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: bigc ]
 

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Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on January 05, 2006, 06:03 PM:
 
Bigc

quote:

---

Byron, Randy, Randy, Q, and many others are down right good! Sure they are in Texas and have access to lots of land....GREAT FOR THEM!!! When I go to Texas, I know who to look up to PAY to take me hunting, no problem!

---

quote:

---

we were disappointed if we didnt call one up. We only blanked a handful of times.

---

quote:

---

Scott jealous of prostitutes? I doubt it?

---

quote:

---

it is quite possible to like somebody that somebody I like doesn't like, as well.

---

I couldn't agree more!

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on January 09, 2006, 02:16 PM:
 
Apology accepted Bigc. It's forgotten!

Bigc: "What I am wondering though, if I can be candid, is if you think Byron, Randy Anderson, and others making vidoes are fast buck artists?"

Bigc,

I am not going to mention the names of those who I feel are "fast buck artists". I gave you the description and you can sort it out for yourself. Unfortunately, most "fast buck artists" are not realized until those they misled realize they have been misled.

I haven't seen Randy Anderson's latest video/videos. The last one I saw was "Verminators". Randy Anderson does not offer an instructional video per say but rather entertainment videos. I believe RA has enough experience to back the instructions he does present. Randy offers basic information that is not misleading. Randy doesn't pretend to be something he's not so NO, I do not consider Randy Anderson to be a "fast buck artist". I don't think Randy Anderson knew just how popular his videos would become. I enjoyed the entertainment value of his videos very much.

I think two of the best instructional videos I have watched is the Coyote Gods video and Ed Sceery's videos.

As far as Byron South, I never heard of the guy until he recently jumped from the bushes on this thread and had an insecurity attack over my choice of words at the beginning of this post. Never saw any of Byron's videos. Only he knows whether or not he has the experience to back the information he presents or whether or not he has prostituted other's knowledge for his own financial gain and notoriety without paying any respect to those who taught him.

I never mentioned any names but rather laid out the characteristics of what I believe to be a "fast buck artist" and prostitute of this sport.

~SH~
 

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Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on January 09, 2006, 02:30 PM:
 
Bigc. I have know idea what Bigc stands for, but you are big in my book. I admire the way you took a clear look at what Scott was trying to say. Then come back and make the apology you did.

Leonard, the same goes for you and you're post to Bigc, but hell you know I like you already.

Scott, I always appreciate any words from you. I sat here in amazement watching this post take the routes it did. You were accused of trolling. Down here on the Gulf coast we do a lot of off shore trolling because it is a very effective way of catching fish. If you had been a true troll, was it not amazing who all you gut hooked with unabated hooks. Like I always do when I come here I learn. You will never know how much I learned from you're post. It stopped me from making another big mistake just in time. Scott thanks to you and the others that visit here there is a wealth of knowledge if folks would just sit back and take it in instead of reacting to it. Knowledge is like sign. It is not always crystal clear like a track in fresh snow, or scat in the middle of the road. It has to be studied and deciphered to actually be determined what is right in front of you. Some have that ability, some will acquire it, and sadly some will never come close.
 

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Posted by bigc (Member # 777) on January 09, 2006, 02:35 PM:
 
And we are good!

Thanks for clearing up what should have been easy for me to understand.

I get what you are saying.

I too enjoy watching Randy Anderson's videos. I find them entertaining at the least, and educational on some level. I don't know if there really is an "advanced" callers video out there.

To Byron's credit. His vidoes are entertaining and educational as well. They do cover the basics like, calls, set-up, guns. etc. So for the average joe they are great! I never got the impression that he thought himself to be anything more than a down to earth guy from texas. Just my take.

I guess, for me, as long as I connect with whoever is making the video on some level....I'm ok with it. I think I can say that all the videos I have seen seem to be pretty much the same sort of thing; fun, different area footage, and I learn a thing or 2. Have I kept all the videos I have bought, no. I have less than 1/2 oif those I have bought, watched them a few times and shared them with others. But they did serve their purpose.

C
 

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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on January 09, 2006, 02:43 PM:
 
Wiley E.

Heck, I had to take 7th grade "remedial reading/comprehension"class. [I didn't like to read in front of girls] .[To busy looking @ girls ].

Thus...my teacher, thought...HEY! this boy is reading/comp impaired!!!!! LOL![send him back for seconds! LOL!]

I understood you clearly, right off the bat. LOL!

See Spot run...Get Puff, Spot
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on January 09, 2006, 02:52 PM:
 
Uhhh,... Leonard,

It is Scott's expressed wish that this thread and the resultant conflict be allowed to die a painless death.

I don't think this inferrence smoothes over many tender nerves...

quote:

---

...I changed your screen name in my "welcome" from "bigc" to "Mrs Buker"!

Your post struck me as something a mother might do to stick up for her little boy? Of course, now I see that you have a good heart and were not the troll I thought you might be...

---

My first reaction was that Leonard just called Buker's wife a troll, and that oughtta be good for another dozen pages. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but thought I'd share my snicker. You funny man.

[ January 09, 2006, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
 

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Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on January 09, 2006, 03:03 PM:
 
Leonard???? Funny???? Holy Moly Did I miss something? lol
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 09, 2006, 05:25 PM:
 
Hey, I just thought it was humorous? Like, when a kid needs his mom to fight his fights for him, seems like it is a lifelong assignment, and the kid (should be) embarassed by it, but seldom is.

Yeah, Byron hasn't been around very long but has managed to make quite a splash; which is okay by me. At least he bailed a few pages ago.

But, Scott, you don't know Byron? Remember back when we used to moderate (you and me) the Predator Hunting Forum, over on Predator Masters? Well, guess who is the moderator now? That's right, Byron South now moderates that Forum....w/help from somebody?

Those of us that have no life won't allow this thread to die! Well, what the hell, it's not illegal. Yet.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on January 09, 2006, 06:36 PM:
 
Although I didn't think the cheap shot was funny, I did hear you grew big ol' hairy sense of humor this last year. It seems retiring is suiting you quite well (I stole that too).

Hey, just doing my part to keep the thread alive.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 09, 2006, 07:11 PM:
 
Danny, maybe (you) didn't think it was funny but I have taken a lot of lip from a small group of agitators, over the years. Very small group. There aren't many scalps on my totem.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on January 09, 2006, 07:28 PM:
 
!
 

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Posted by RonDell (Member # 761) on January 10, 2006, 01:27 PM:
 
If you steal from one person it’s called plagiarism, but if you steal from everybody it's called good research.
 

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Posted by Noel Brandon (Member # 697) on January 10, 2006, 07:53 PM:
 
I can't believe I actually read this whole thing...
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 10, 2006, 09:42 PM:
 
Man, you deserve a gold star. I wish I knew a way to award it?

Good hunting. LB

PS actually, I like Rich Cronk's solution.
He put; "I survived the train wreck" in his signature.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 13, 2006, 09:47 AM:
 
Scott's point, read on~

NEW YORK (Jan. 12) - Stung by a recent Associated Press article that didn't credit him for coining the word "truthiness," Comedy Central's Stephen Colbert has struck back.

Joel Jefferies, Comedy Central
On 'The Colbert Report,' comedian Stephen Colbert defined "truthiness" as truth that wouldn't stand to be held back by facts. The word caught on. The American Dialect Society named "truthiness" the word of the year.

The world's oldest news organization, Colbert says, is the "No. 1 threat facing America."

On Wednesday evening, Colbert placed the AP atop the Threat Down segment of "The Colbert Report" show. What was No. 2? Bears.

In October, on Colbert's debut episode of the "Daily Show" spinoff, the comedian defined "truthiness" as truth that wouldn't stand to be held back by facts. The word caught on, and last week the American Dialect Society named "truthiness" the word of the year.

When an AP story about the designation sent coast to coast failed to mention Colbert, he began a tongue-in-cheek crusade, not unlike the kind his muse Bill O'Reilly might lead in all seriousness.

"It's a sin of omission, is what it is," Colbert told The AP on Thursday. "You're not giving people the whole story about truthiness."

*****************************************
Question: does this have crossover to coyote videos?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Don kyHOtee (Member # 786) on January 13, 2006, 09:59 AM:
 
That's tough to follow Leonard. I read it several times and in all truthiness, I lost interest. I suppose his hurt feelings could be similar to that of a Coyote Man.

At least we know that Colbert is a religious man.

[ January 13, 2006, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: Don kyHOtee ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 13, 2006, 10:04 AM:
 
In all truthiness, Dawn, I thought it germaine. Texicans might have a different perspective?

Good hunting. LB
 

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