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Author
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Topic: Wiley E, Rich Higgins,GS,Cal Taylor,Leonard,Q,Byron,etc.
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JLW
PAKMAN
Member # 771
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posted January 03, 2006 02:02 PM
Wiley had stated in his demographics post that someone should ask him about coyote behavior, stand selection, handling coyotes, and vocalizations. Most of you deal with western coyote hunting and that is what I am interested in. Give us your thoughts on what makes you successful using the criteria from above. I understand in most areas wind in your face or cross winds, etc. Wiley said a person might learn how to improve their calling success by asking him about these factors, but there are a lot of you who have knowlege about these areas. Example-why would you use a coyote vocalization over a rabbit scream and how should we expect them to react to it and will they act differently than if we used a rabbit scream. Should we use coyote distress cries more or does that scare them away more? etc.etc.etc. Maybe I should just ask what makes you successful and how do you accomplish it?
Posts: 2 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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Q-Wagoner
FREE TRIAL MEMBERSHIP
Member # 33
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posted January 03, 2006 02:52 PM
Coyote behavior is influenced by what the individual coyote has been exposed to good or bad. We kill coyotes by generalizing what they might want to hear or what more coyotes than not will respond to. With out personal knowledge about what a coyote or group of coyotes have been exposed to earlier in the season you can only generalize your efforts to call them. Distress calls are the bread and butter for a coyote caller because food is a consistent motivator. Not only do they respond to distress calls with the expectation of something to eat they also key off of them for territorial and other reasons.
I have had coyotes come into to distress cries very aggressively and I have had them come into the same sounds with their head down and tail tucked. When an individual coyote responds to a call they are expecting something and it might not be for the reasons you think they are.
The same principle applies to why coyotes do not respond to calls. When a coyote does not respond to a call most novice callers assume that they are not hungry or have been “educated” by other hunters. While the latter may be true, it is not always the case. There are many naturally occurring factors that may influence why a particular coyote or group of coyotes will not respond.
The same coyote that just looked at you from a far hill yesterday might run you over today because of a fast moving weather front. Coyotes are highly in tune with the world around them and will react accordingly.
How do we know what they want to hear? Well there are more questions than answers when it comes to why coyotes respond and why they don’t. In the end your best chance is to look at the coyote’s surroundings, look at the time of year, look at the time of day, look at the weather and look at the structure you are hunting and then learn about the local hunting pressure. That information will help you to decide what kind of sound or approach you need to take to kill these coyotes.
Procedure is important to me. I like to approach every situation with the odds stacked in my favorer so I usually take the extra steps to learn a few things about the country and the coyotes before I start hunting.
If that is to much work, do what most of the other coyote hunters do and head to the country, sneak into a likely area and turn your e-caller on high then sit and wait. Keep repeating this process and you will have responses sooner or later. The higher your densities the higher your score.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posts: 617 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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Randy Buker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 134
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posted January 03, 2006 03:47 PM
Damn, Q. You are on a roll. Another very good post!
You must be eating your wheaties!
Randy
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Hunting the Red Fox
www.geocities.com/foxhunter_56308
Posts: 158 | From: Parkers Prairie, MN | Registered: Feb 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 03, 2006 03:51 PM
Welcome to the New Huntmasters, JLW. Glad to have you on board.
As far as my response to your question; first I'd like to suggest that when you pose a question, you try to make it specific, rather than general. I believe you get specific answers to specific questions and when you ask a question that asks about overall concepts, you will get your answer in "generalities" which may cover things that you don't need answered. I think that Quinton did a good job of "overview" so if anybody else feels that some segment of your question requires more detail, that is a good way to approach it.
I also think that it is not always a good idea to specify who the question is addressed to. There are many members here, that are capable of offering quality advice. To exclude them, which makes it seem like you only want to consider the replies from certain people, leads you to reject valuable information from otherwise willing responders, who were not invited to offer their opinion.
With that in mind, I will attempt to give you a short answer to stand selection.
I think you cannot go wrong by selecting your stand based on "sign" in the area. You should plan for success. If you think you prefer to call up wind, make sure you have good visibility in that direction. I recently watched "Predator Quest" by Les Johnson and Jeff Johnson. It seemed to me that they prefered elevated locations with visibility of over a half mile, and more often, what looked like a mile of visibility.
If you like to hunker down in a wash with a shotgun, well, be sure you are not flushing your coyotes out of that wash while getting into position. Another question is how to handle such a stand, do you call uphill, or downhill?
That answer depends on your intuition. You just get a feeling on how to set up. Every stand has some right and wrong decisions you can make, and I can't tell you what they are unless we were both looking at the same spot.
I like to select a stand that is on a margin. Maybe an alfalfa field along a riverbank. Maybe right at the base of some foothills next to extensive creasote flats? Maybe a clearcut under a powerline. Transitions from one type of terrain to another.
Personal preference plays a large part of stand selection. It is difficult to call one man's stand selection wrong; especially if it seems to work. We all develop our own style.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Gerald Stewart
Knows what it's all about
Member # 162
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posted January 03, 2006 04:04 PM
I am in crunch time and that one would require more than I have right now. If it is still around after I get back from my trip I will try to give some input. If they have all answered to my staisfaction, I will just let their answers suffice since they all learned from my videos and writings. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
It was a joke guys ....just a simple joke...... ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posts: 419 | From: Waco,Tx | Registered: Mar 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted January 03, 2006 06:14 PM
JLW: "Example-why would you use a coyote vocalization over a rabbit scream and how should we expect them to react to it and will they act differently than if we used a rabbit scream."
JLW,
My time is short before I head out on a hunting trip so I am just going to address the above question.
Why do I use coyote vocalizations over a rabbit scream for THESE coyotes in THIS area?
First let me address why I use a coyote howl.
1. Sell the idea that a coyote is there.
If the howl is followed by rabbit screams it ***** the idea that a coyote is there that is killing a rabbit which is more natural than just a plain rabbit assuming both sounds sound realistic.
Keep in mind that the sounds not only have to be natural sounding to a coyote but they also have to be coming from a place that appears natural to a coyote.
2. I howl because I can locate coyotes by their response to my howl IF they feel like responding.
3. Cover more distance due to volume of howling vs. distress calls.
In few situations can you go wrong throwing out a howl that sounds natural and non confrontational.
In most healthy coyote populations, 70% are young of the year coyotes. Depending on the calling pressure in your area and the time of year, it's a fairly safe bet that this segment of the coyote population will respond very well to rabbit distress calls even if they don't sound totally natural. The more natural the sound, the more coyotes will be fooled into it. The more rabbits they are eating in the area, the more they will be fooled into it.
Every coyote has a different level of curiousity and a different level of caution to every sound depending on their life's experiences.
It goes without saying that an area of high calling competition with adult coyotes and unnatural sounding calls, your chances are going to be greatly reduced by using the same sounds as everyone else. In contrast, in an area of heavy coyote populations with limited hunting pressure and a high percentage of young coyotes, and natural sounding calls, your success will be greatly improved.
Keep in mind that there is some days where nothing works because the coyotes are simply not responsive. The next day the same coyote that didn't raise his head for you today might come charging in. Don't be too quick in determining a reason for a lack of success.
There is no way I can tell you exactly what to do without knowing your situation. All I can do is tell you the variables to consider in making your own decision. As I said, I don't think you can go wrong in most situations by combining a couple natural sounding howls with a natural sounding rabbit distress call or other distress calls. If you think you have a lot of competition using rabbit distress calls and the coyotes tend to be wary, go to a different prey sound.
There's no hard fast rules because the factors that influence success vary from situation to situation and from area to area. Learning the coyote behavior variables from area to areas is the key to success in those areas.
The key thing is that your sounds appear natural to a coyote. A coyote is never going to shy away from their own language if it sounds natural but they may shy away from a rabbit sound that doesn't sound totally natural if they have had a bad experience with that same sound before. The more natural the sound, the better your success will be.
I have blown a perfect sounding rabbit call (PERFECT TO ME) and watched a coyote turn and run like I had dumped hot water on him. He was coming to the howl and my partner was convinced that this coyote needed to hear a rabbit call, so I blew one and he'd obviously been called, shot at, and missed with a similar sound.
In that situation, I probably would have killed that coyote with the same howls I was using and a bird distress sound of some type.
If you are not confident in the sound of your howls, use distress calls only. You don't want to blow your chances with a good distress sound by ruining it with an unnatural sounding howl.
The individual coyote is the judge of what sounds natural. Not you, not me, not any other caller but a coyote. I guarantee you that some of the worst howls will call coyotes readily. Some of the most natural sounding vocalizations I have heard wouldn't carry 1/2 mile. The coyote is the judge of what sounds good not any human.
Some calling contests have a contest between callers blowing their calls judged by other callers. I always thought that was funny because what sounds great to me might sound like crap to a coyote.
You never argue with success and don't be too quick to judge failure.
~SH~
[ January 03, 2006, 06:25 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted January 03, 2006 06:15 PM
Leonard,
Why does this forum keep ******ing (deleting) the word s-e-l-l-s?
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 03, 2006 07:05 PM
Darned if I know? Must be some kind of bug in the program?
Don't believe that?
Okay, the truth is that it's on the naughty word list. Why it's on the list is a secret. But, it's located at mile marker #115 on hwy 86. Bad place, don't go there.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted January 03, 2006 07:06 PM
JLW-
You didn't list me, but I'll throw in my .02 here. What part of Colorado are you from? Are you calling mountain coyotes or are you out on the high plains? It might make some difference to somebody that can give you very specific information to those environs. (Those mtn coyote are especially adept at using terrain and cover to mask their approach.)
As far as stand selection goes, I'm along the same lines as Leonard in that I tend to prefer edge cover, mainly because I have so much of it. In what I call true western calling setups, you have the same homogenous habitat for as far as you can see and the coyotes can just erupt in your mustache from any direction. That's some fun calling out there, but it isn't like my area. I've got fencerows, shelterbelts, creeks and rivers, small woodlots, CRP tracts, cropfields, set aside ground, river levees, oxbows... you get the picture. These are all the various types of structure that coyotes will exploit as corridors thru which they can and will make their approach. (It's a rush to watch one come in from way the hell out there, but it won't happen here very often.) When I make a stand in new country, I make sure to assess the area for these corridors, factor in the wind if possible, and act accordingly. Yes, I prefer to put the wind in my face, or at the least, in one ear. But, in a pinch, I'll make a stand with the wind at my back. That is, if it's an area where I have no other approach and hunting pressure is high in the area from other guys using dogs and trucks, calling, whatever. Kinda going back to what Q said, some coyotes may break out at the first hint of human scent. Others won't. I think a lot of this has to do with how the coyotes in a given area typically encounter our smell and the associations they have with it. In the southwest desert where that smell is readily associated with humans calling and shooting at them, they bust easily. In Kansas, coyotes see and smell people all the time. Bird hunters, farmers working ground, coyote callers, and the majority of their encounters don't end negatively. So, I don't freak out about smell nearly so much as some people have to. Again, it's the nature of the coyotes in your area (like Wiley said).
As far as howling and vocalizations go, using them takes your calling to a whole new level, and using them effectively will require that you hit the books and gain a better understanding of how a coyote operates throughout the year. There are times when howls can be very effective and other times when you're just busting their chops. "Natural" is the key, as Wiley said, and that takes some time and practice.
Probably more accessible and equally as important to the neophyte caller is mastering a variety of different sounds. Maybe that comes with a good quality e-caller or a whole bag of mouth calls, but there is so much more out there than just the Johnny Stewart distressed cottontail. What I have tried to do is to develop a range of sound packages to offer as the season goes along. Early on, when the majority are ignorant juvies, the rabbit sounds are killer. After a while, they wise up to those and your numbers start to drop off. Then, I'll add a few different calls using jackrabbit sounds, change up on cadence, fawn bleats, calf bawls, bird distress, and the like. Then, as the season progresses and we begin to approach the breeding season, I'll start introducing more lone howls and other vocalizations, i.e., ki-yi's. In this way, I tend to keep some fresh ideas in reserve to offer something new when everyone else is still trotting out the same ol' tired cottontail and going home empty handed. In an area that is heavily called by "regular callers", I may rely solely on howls on a stand where I have good evidence of coyotes (i.e., lots of tracks, toilet arre along boundaries)offering very conservative, and long, protracted setups. On some of these, I'll use a rather innovative and extreme sound - silence. Call for fifteen minutes, then just sit and relax for another quarter to half hour. Occasionally, especially in this part of the year, I'll catch a yearling or transient sneaking in to see if anything was left behind.
In short, look around you. Identify how that coyote is going to try to screw you and be prepared to counter it. In most cases, we're smarter than the coyote we're hunting, so take advantage of that.
Second, own more than one call. Otherwise, you get one shot and your season's over. Variety comes in which calls you use, time of day, cadence/sequence, where you set up to call a particular spot, and any other parameters you might dream up. You may have just one good place to call, but when you mix and match all the variables you have some control over, you can create your own opportunities.
Finally, persistence and perseverance. This stuff ain't easy. And I'm glad for that, because it causes a lot of wannabes to wash out early. You just need to hunt and learn. Can't guarantee you success, but I can guarantee you failures, and you need to understand as much about each failed attempt as you can to create learning opportunities. That's why Wiley and Q are so good at what they do. What some ppl may see as a failure, they see as an oppoortunity to advance on the learning curve.
Good luck.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted January 03, 2006 07:36 PM
Leonard,
Maybe he'll start a second thread, and ask the rest of us what not to do?
Might get as much useful information?
Krusty 
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted January 03, 2006 07:53 PM
Behavior;
I view many types of animals [coyotes as well] in a similiar fashion, as I view domestic dogs & humans. ![[Confused]](confused.gif) Huh!!! What the heck! is he talking about, LOL!.
1. Life experience's, what do they know, what have they learned. How will they react.
2. Aggressive, non-aggressive or mellow/indifferent/apathetic.
3. Their is little to no control[especially with animals], over true "hunger" It can make you/them, become bold, aggressive or foolish against their will or better judgment.
4. All mammals/humans have very similar "primary/primative" traits/behaviors, in their own class/specie's. But all are different.
5. Males are inherently territoral. Whether it be over a "mate" or land held/owned. Doesn't mean they'll attack or charge. But they've considered, thought, or are thinking about it .
6. Female's are inherently protective of their young[Motherly instinct], as well as their territory.
7. Most all are inherently curious. That tends to sometimes...kill cats ![[Smile]](smile.gif) . Also sometimes people are drawn to read, what I have to say .
I use all of these, as a possibility. To lure a coyote into view.
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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scruffy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 725
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posted January 04, 2006 11:26 AM
One thing that has really helped me, above doing lots and lots of reading and asking questions, is hunting with someone with experience. Doesn't have to be more experience, just experience. We all have different experiences and can learn from each other. I'm also on a local (iowa) forum and have hunted with a few people over the last couple of years I've met on that site (2dogs being one of them).
You just can't beat having the person next to you explaining how to do something with a call you couldn't do, telling you how your calling sounds or is carrying, and just overall technique to stand selection and such or point out mistakes you are making.
It takes finding the right mentor, but if you find that right person you both will learn.
later,
scruffy
[ January 04, 2006, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
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Git R Done
Posts: 361 | From: south central Iowa | Registered: Nov 2005
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted January 04, 2006 12:48 PM
I'm no "caller" Scruff. Just a [hill humpin lead slinger] .
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Old dog, learns new trick...
9 yrs ago, we hired a [new guy] firefighter. He was already "book learned"...[college ].
Anyways, this young guy[no field experience]other than a little volunteer time in a small town. Backed me up on a handline, as we entered the main floor of a house on fire. Basement fire that is, that burnt up to the main floor.
You couldn't see your nose, heavy hot smoke from ceiling to the floor. I'm on the nozzle, slowly crawling...feeling the floor. Advancing deeper, into the structure. Looking for the "seat of the fire"...
Suddenly, he grabs my ankle...[we always stay in physical contact]...He say's STOP!!...I do so .
I said, "What"!!! He said, "Big hole in the floor, right in front of you!" I felt right in front of me...Yup! BIG-BUTTED, burnt out hole[4x6'].
I thought for a moment hmmmm:confused: . How did he know that ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) .
I yelled through my breathing mask...How did you know the hole was there? He said, "Take your helmut off & lay your cheek onto the floor"
I did so...WOW!! From the floor, up to 1" high off of the floor. The air was crystal clear!!! . I could see clear across the house, below the heavy smoke.
We talked afterwards...I asked, "Where did you learn that???" He said, "I just thought of trying it" right then ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Duh!
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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JLW
PAKMAN
Member # 771
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posted January 04, 2006 07:23 PM
Thanks for the reply's. I was not trying to leave anyone out as much as ask people who seem to have lots of posts and are not afraid to express their opinions. I would love to hear from anyone on these issues. To answer cdog911, most of my calling is in the plains and not in the mountains.
Posts: 2 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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sparkyibewlocal440
Knows what it's all about
Member # 397
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posted January 04, 2006 07:31 PM
Great input Guys.Leonard,are you refering to Killer hwy 86?
Posts: 170 | From: So. Cal | Registered: Sep 2004
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Locohead
World Famous Smoke Dancer
Member # 15
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posted January 04, 2006 11:54 PM
JLW,
I'd love to accompany you on a hunt if I'm able to get away. We have a baby due in January. Perhaps a hunt in February. I have been wanting to get out with NASA now for a couple of years. I can sneak away occasionally during the week if you can.
P.S. I'm not one of the really smart guys (experienced) here but I love to hunt coyotes. I think I can make an okie dokie non-threatening lone howl and I can "squeeze the rabbit" too (I forgot who's gem that was but I want to give credit where credit is due)
[ January 05, 2006, 12:01 AM: Message edited by: Locohead ]
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I love my critters and chick!!!! :)
Posts: 2219 | From: CO | Registered: Jan 2003
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