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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 12, 2006, 05:20 PM:
I was talking to my daughter about the time she picked up a deer fawn and took it to the Vet.
She said it died enroute.
She said it was DROPPED BY A LARGE BLACK OWL, twenty feet on to the road, right in front of her.
I said I didn't think an owl, like a great horned owl, could be described as "black"? Furthermore, I didn't think an owl was capable of actually flying with a fawn. I suggested a golden eagle. She said several people in the neighborhood had seen a large black owl, and that is what she thinks she saw?
So, is this possible? If not, I need other possibilities. What do you think?
Good hunting. LB
edit: I know they have turkey vultures (black) in that part of Marin, but again, I don't think they are powerful enough to fly with a deer fawn?
[ May 12, 2006, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 12, 2006, 06:37 PM:
I'd say a GHO could lift - maybe - 2-3#. Goldies have been known to go big enough to carry a newborn fawn. It would have to be a female as a male would be still too small (the eagle - not the fawn). Turkey vultures lack the grip of other raptors in their feet to grab prey as you describe. Could it have been a large Harris' Hawk? They're about as close to black as you're going to get in most birds of prey beyond an eagle. Or, do you have any migrating bald eagles in that part of the country? We still have a few stragglers here in Kansas left over from the Feb migration that have chosen to stay and nest.
On a positive, my Mississippi Kites are arriving "home" this week. Saw five of them day before yesterday in a neighborhood where they've nested the past five years.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 12, 2006, 07:34 PM:
I'm really stumped on this. I assume she knows what she is talking about when she said that she actually saw a black bird drop the fawn right on the road, in front of her car. I can't think of any bird smaller than a golden eagle that would be capable of doing it? Okay, maybe a Harpi, but he would be lost or a zoo excapee, but I have seen those videos of one grabbing a monkey, so he's big enough and bold enough. He ain't black, though? But he has a crest that could resemble owl ears? I don't know? LB
Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on May 12, 2006, 07:36 PM:
Cool story. My mom witnessed a goose that died in mid-flight. Fell right into the road, dead as a doorknob, right in front of her. Weird, man. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 13, 2006, 06:37 AM:
Depending on the lighting, most anything could appear 'black' when silhouetted against the sky.
My guess would be a Golden Eagle.
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 13, 2006, 11:59 AM:
At a glance the silhouettes would be similair but a Golden would SEEM more likely to carry off a fawn.
GOLDEN EAGLE
GREAT HORNED OWL
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on May 13, 2006, 12:49 PM:
I doubt it could have been a horned owl? LIke lots of large birds, they look big, but feathers and hollow bones just don't weigh a hell of a lot. A mature owl might tip 3 pounds, out here a bit less. I don't know off hand the average weight of a newborn fawn, but it has to be more than 3 pounds?
Im sure there is a formula for what a bird can lift in conjunction to its weight? maybe half, who knows. A golden eagle is about the only bird I can think of that could possibly get something of 3-5 pounds airborne?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 13, 2006, 12:52 PM:
I looked up horned owl, and that just doesn't seem likely? On the other hand, I saw the Great Gray owl, a bigger bird than the horned owl and much darker in appearance, 27".
Then I go to the Golden Eagle page and it says Length 37" and wingspan 86". A very dark appearing bird.
I don't see other possibilities? Owls hunt rodents, game birds. What I can't figure out is why several of these neighbors claim to have spotted a black owl hanging around. What feature identifies a bird as an owl? A large head?
Well, you know what they say about "eye witnesses"? Totally unreliable. LB
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 13, 2006, 01:46 PM:
For the most part, a bird has to fit the taxonomic criteria for an owl, being a member of either of two main familes, bubonidae or tytonidae, with barn owls being the only tytonid owl. Outwardly, they have big eyes and well pronounced eye discs for funneling light, just as you picture. They also have much better hearing than other birds of prey. To be an owl, they just have to be not a hawk, and not a falcon.
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on May 13, 2006, 05:35 PM:
I always sorted them out by Owls fly at night.
But what's the difference between a hawk, Falcon or a Eagle?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 13, 2006, 06:10 PM:
As far as the California Fish and Game; NONE. They are all considered raptors, along with condors and vultures. That may be a loose classification, scientifically, but that's the way I read it....they are all protected, here. But, as I recall, owls have specially adapted feathers that allows them to fly silently. Ever notice how some game birds whistle when they flush, that is one of the more obvious differences. Lance mentioned the eyes, that's a prominent observable feature, besides the "ears", on most owls. Nightjars and poorwills are closely related, I think? Hook bills, as with parrots?
Until somebody comes up with a good alternative, I'm sticking with golden eagle. Even if it wasn't, it is a bird that could do it.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Buffalobob (Member # 825) on May 14, 2006, 05:23 AM:
Sounds to me like a great horned owl tackled a little more than it could carry off. A 10 pound fawn would not appear much different from a cat or woodchuck to the owl but would be too much to carry very far.
Mule deer
At birth fawns are spotted and weigh approximately 2.5 kg.
Great horned owl
owl
Food and Feeding: The Great Horned Owl has such a long and diverse variety of prey that it would not be practical to list. It is a very opportunistic forager that generally chooses a perch and scans for prey although it will glide over areas where prey is likely to be, it will walk on the ground, and it has even been reported to wade into the water. Scarcely anything that moves is safe from this owl. It will eat prey as small as insects and scorpions or as large as domestic cats, woodchucks, geese, and Great Blue Herons. This owl's diverse diet may include small mammals to rabbits, birds, and reptiles to fish and amphibians. It will take carrion when the weather is bad. It has one of thee most powerful grips with its feet of any of the owls. It regularly preys on smaller owls and has been reported to attack and kill even Red-tailed Hawks. It has no predators and will eat anything from crayfish to young foxes.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 14, 2006, 09:07 AM:
My "limited" experience with great horned owls tells me this was anything but a great horned owl. At an average 3# for males, and ~4# for females, even a newborn fawn would generally be as large, or larger, than an adult owl. If an owl were to be able to get airborne with prey this size, I doubt that they could sustain that flight plan for more than a foot or two, and most difinitely not to twenty feet up as Leonard's daughter estimated. I've observed them try to fly carrying part of an eastern cottontail rabbit and had a lot of trouble getting both feet off the ground.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 14, 2006, 09:16 AM:
Lance, we have a group of Harris hawks nesting near the house as well as a pair of GH owls. The Haris hawks are about the same size as the owls. I've seen the owls snatch a pigeon off the house and fly off with it. A Harris killed a cottontail in the front yard and couldn't get off the ground with it. My Pom ran it off the rabbit. I video'ed that. Saw a Kestral snag a dove, both hit the ground and the dove dragged the kestral a good twenty feet before giving it up.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 14, 2006, 09:27 AM:
Rich,
Thanks. I've only seen one Harris and it was a female that had been manned and was on display at University of Florida in '86 at the Annual Raptor Research Foundation Conference. I thought I remembered her being a bit larger than a GHO, but I guess not. Either way, I don't see a GHO getting something the size of a cottontail off the ground. Now, a larger buteo, like a hawk of eagle, has the wing surface to possibly create the necessary lift while maintaining some control. Also, buteos will often take their prey someplace beyond where they kill it (i.e., top of a telephone pole), tear it apart and eat it piece by piece. Owls are somewhat unique in that they generally ingest their kill whole and aren't as well equipped at shredding prey like the hawks and eagles. They can do it, but their beaks aren't as sharp or as strong.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 14, 2006, 10:41 AM:
BTW, my daughter is a bunny hugger, almost zen in attitude, which is why she probably wasted her time loading the fawn into her car? Interestingly, she expressed an interest in acquiring her mother's Lady Smith? I was surprised, and pleased. As far as I know, she has never fired a gun? Next time she comes down, I will see if she wants to drive up to the range with me. Maybe a small convert?
Anyway, this subject has got me bugged, a little bit. We have logic, and we have statements from witnesses?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on May 14, 2006, 10:47 AM:
Leonard,
What about a young bald eagle?
All dark in color, large enough to carry a four or five pound load, and indigenous to the coastal area.
A blacktail fawn, especially a freshie, can't weigh more than a medium sized cod?
Krusty 
Posted by Buffalobob (Member # 825) on May 14, 2006, 12:49 PM:
While I still go with the great horned owl being able to get a small fawn off the ground and being forced to drop it. It was reported to be an owl and owls are distinctive and the GHO eats anything and everything. Here is a reference that is interesting. I don't know the validity of the information
weight lifting
greatest weight-carrying capacity: bald eagle lifting a 6.8 kg (15 lb) mule deer
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 14, 2006, 02:08 PM:
Buffalobob,
I agree wholeheartedly with those facts, as I made clear right up there when I said,
quote:
Now, a larger buteo, like a hawk of eagle, has the wing surface to possibly create the necessary lift while maintaining some control.
But, having said that, I can all but state with total confidence that a GHO cannot lift a fawn-size animal. Studied great horned owls for five summers in college and none of the more than 400 owls I handled could have accomplished such a feat. Then again, maybe all my owls were "girly owls". ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on May 14, 2006, 04:12 PM:
Cdog911,
I think you studied Girly owls.
The GHO's that' I've seen would have no trouble lifting off with a small fawn.
A friend of mine worked for the Sheriff's dept for 30+ years. During that time he made the front page twice for having a GHO drop a large Carp ( One of them might have been a catfish ) onto his patrol car in the middle of the night.
One fish shattered his windshield, the other dented his roof and got lodged under his light bar. The picture in the paper showed the mechanic's having to remove the light bar to get the big fish out from under it.
I don't mind the smaller owls, but those GHO steal chickens at a phenomenal rate.
Tim
Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on May 14, 2006, 04:28 PM:
I believe a Great Horned Owl could harvest a fawn on occasion. I've seen other birds attempt it... and come mighty close... and I've seen several fawns that didn't go ten pounds. Like Tim said they are mighty hard on chickens, ducks and geese.
Just last fall I had an old farmer ask me why I was setting traps in his field. I told him he had given me permission, so I didn't see the problem. He said "I want those traps on top fencepost with cotton balls on the pans" ... "That'll solve my nuicense problems faster than you playing in the dirt". ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on May 14, 2006, 04:30 PM:
PS: Cdog, send me an email at Jrbhunter@hotmail.com sometime.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 14, 2006, 05:00 PM:
I'll stand by what I wrote. Until you've seen a full-grown great horned owl without feathers, you don't know how little there is to those critters.If it weren't for eyeballs, there'd be nothing to 'em.
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on May 14, 2006, 07:56 PM:
Cdog911
Ever see a naked fox or coyote? Fox eat lambs and Coyotes eat calves. An owl with eat anything it can sneak up on and kill.
Jason,
My old hen house had a 30' pole set behind it. Cotton will work, but a white feather stuck into the V on an old Victor works as well.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 14, 2006, 08:34 PM:
This incident was broad daylight. I know, an owl can sometimes be flying in the daytime, but around here, it's because they were provoked by crows. And the crows are quite visible. I have also seen golden eagles (2) fly after dark, so not every rapter in the night is an owl, although it's a good bet that it's an owl. The reason why I say that is because what is the best guess on the type of bird that drops a carp on a squad car? A bald eagle, right? Next best guess is a teenage boy, but there again; do GHO fish? That's news to me. Ain't disagreeing, I just never heard of an owl fishing after dark?
I have examined great horned owls before, They seem to me to be able to carry off a cottontail rabbit (maybe) but I don't know about a deer fawn. And, Krusty was right, all the deer up in Marin are blacktails, and (might) probably(?) DO weigh close to ten pounds? (just a guess)
Good hunting. LB
Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on May 15, 2006, 10:33 AM:
My bet would be on a golden or an immature baldie. I've looked closely at hundreds of eagles and at times and certain angles their heads look too big to fit our picture of the streamlined bird. I've had to do a double-take more than 1x because the fat head said "owl" but the circumstance said eagle.
Also, I'd think that 10lbs. would be heavy for a fawn (not a muley)this time of year. I know I've picked up whitetail fawns in mid June that wouldn't weigh 10 pounds - as a rough guess.
Anybody ever read Kieths "Hell, I was there!". The "as he said it" second edition, not the first edition biography that was cleaned up. He is pretty hard on the eagles and hawks - just as I would expect from a fellow native Missourian.
He mentions the big horn sheep or mountain goat fawn leg count found under one golden eagle nest - I think there were 39 legs...
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 15, 2006, 02:24 PM:
quote:
what is the best guess on the type of bird that drops a carp on a squad car? A bald eagle, right?
Maybe. Maybe an osprey, too. Owl? I seriously doubt it for the reasons you listed. I've seen ospreys hoist fish up to 3# before.
I've googled and reviewed a lot of material the past day about GHO feeding and hunting habits and have found many references to owls feeding on prey as large as racoons and housecats, and know for a fact that striped skunks are a favorite in their diet. But, no where is it found that any of these larger prey species were actually relocated from the kill site. I've tried to find a good picture of an owl carcass sans feathers so you could see just how scrawny they are. Literally look like a pencil with huge eyeballs. And as mentioned, the bones are all hollow, so there really is very little mass to them. Therefore, inutition and personal, hands on experience tells me that no great horned owl could cart off a fawn-sized critter. If anyone can prove otherwise, I'll admit I am wrong.
Just food for thought, here's an interesting report of a witnessed kill of a coyote by a golden eagle in 1998.
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ws/nwrc/is/00pubs/00-41.pdf
Now, THAT would be something to see.
[ May 15, 2006, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on May 15, 2006, 04:57 PM:
While deer hunting in some heavy timber a number of years ago, I heard some thrashing in the knee high brush 30 yards ahead of me. I paused to see what was making the racket. A big owl flapped up out of the brush clutching a snowshoe hare. The owl looked like it was really struggling with the load and it dropped the hare before getting much more than six feet off the ground. I don't know for sure if it dropped the hare because of the weight or if having me close by made it decide to get airborne and away from any danger. I went up to take a look at the hare and suddenly that damn owl swooped over my head. I didn't expect that, and it scared the heck out of me. I figured if it wanted the meal that bad it could have it. I saw an owl carrying a rooster pheasant once, and another time what looked to be a grouse.
My father-in law watched a golden eagle pack off a mule deer fawn. It swooped in picked up the fawn and carried it for almost a half mile before landing in a cloud of dust, where it spent the next two hours eating the catch. According to him, the eagle never got more than about 30 feet off the ground with the fawn, but it didn't appear to struggle with the load either.
My guess would be the golden eagle. Either way Leonard, your daughter got to witness something very interesting.
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on May 15, 2006, 05:18 PM:
Thanks for posting that C-dog. A trapper that I sold whole coyotes to when I was a teenager told me one coyote that he bought from me had some serious scars on it when he peeled the hide off. I asked him what would cause that? and he said likely an eagle.
My uncle told me of watching a golden eagle "ride" a mule deer doe its death on the range where they winter their cattle. The eagle just kept coming back and hitting and riding the doe until it was finally dead.
Posted by Alaskan Yoter (Member # 169) on May 15, 2006, 05:26 PM:
This was interesting.
http://www.wildlifenews.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=wildlife_news.view_article&articles_id=94&issue_id=21
Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on May 17, 2006, 08:48 AM:
Just some internet numbers I found, no guarantees - I just did a simple search on each bird name.
GH Owl weight - 3.1 lbs, avg.
Lift ability 8-9lbs. (wow! - came from a state univ. site???)
Baldie weight 9-14 lbs
Lift ability 1/2 body weight.
Carry (long term lift) 1/3 body weoght.
Goldie weight 18-22 lbs.
Lift ability 9-11 lbs.
Pound for pound that owl is impressive.
Fawn birthweight numbers were all over tthe place - the lowest being 3-6lbs for western deer. More typically numbers stating a range of 6-8lbs; mostly dependant on fawn sex.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 17, 2006, 10:43 AM:
Joe, just about all your data I find surprising! Not doubting you, of course. Just raising an eyebrow! Sometimes these Institutional Scholars (read:eggheads) can't figure out why a frog turns deaf when they cut off all of it's legs; as the old joke tells us. LB
Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on May 17, 2006, 11:03 AM:
Leonard,
That's why I posted them. Thought maybe it would stimulate some of the more research inclined to throw down some more grounded numbers. I just looked at the first few returns on each search.
The owl weight and the fawn size I have a bit of personal exposure to and can believe. I'd have never guessed any of those other numbers.
I do know(have witnessed) that an owl can lift a full grown cottontail or a full-grown hen chicken. A fawn would not be a stretch from the hen perspective.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 17, 2006, 11:47 AM:
Not only that, the word "fawn" covers a lot of ground, from birth to X months old. I think I need to ask her what time of year this happened? LB
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 17, 2006, 12:20 PM:
March. She was going to visit her mother-in-law, almost to the top of the hill near Lyford and Bartell Ct. in Tiberon.
see here: http://www.zillow.com/search/Search.htm?addrstrthood=1+Bartell&citystatezip=Tiberon%2C+CA&mode=search
Many estates, lots of pine trees, and wildlife corridors. Now, I wish I knew when blacktails drop their fawns?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on May 17, 2006, 12:42 PM:
March? That 'splains it all - a "premie" (premature) birth. Any ole bird worth his salt ought to be able to fly around with one of them.
BTW, the fawn weight numbers above were birth weights.
Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on May 17, 2006, 12:46 PM:
Man, after looking at the property prices in the link above I have little doubt that any owl (or hawk, or eagle) who could afford to live in that neighborhood could easily afford a couple of JATO packs for each wing.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 17, 2006, 05:02 PM:
Yes, Joe, that's true. Tiberon/Belvedere is like the Beverly Hills of Northern California.
Very nice, but what I mean, a lot of open, green areas. Back up that view and you will see that there is a lot of open spaces where the deer and the antelope play.
Beverly Hills, on the other hand, is completely urban. LB
edit: what you are looking at is the top of a mountain, with $$ views of San Francisco Bay or the SF skyline.
[ May 17, 2006, 05:18 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 17, 2006, 05:08 PM:
Man, I'd hate to be that poor bastard with the $1.76M shanty there just to the left of center. Probably some type of mobile-home motif thing going on.
As far as the numbers, I still disagree. An owl may be able to lift that amount off the ground, but they'd never be able to sustain that weight for long, and definitely not to carry it into the air 20'. An owl doesn't even have enough surface area to his wings to maintain soaring or kettling. They're like a pheasant - flap like hell and glide.
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 19, 2006, 12:29 AM:
Leonard: I'm not doubting your daughter's ability to identify wildlife, but is it possible that this 'fawn' was a half grown Jack Rabbit??
A female tree hugger in the oh-my-God-I-must-save-this-poor-creature mode mistaking a Jack for a fawn......it would 'splain a lot.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 19, 2006, 09:11 AM:
I'll tell her you said that.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 19, 2006, 10:37 AM:
Especially since she had it in her car, held it in her hands, even rec'd verification from the vets (it sounds like) that it was, in fact, a deer. If she was so deluded thru all that to think a rabbit was a deer, I've got a house worth, oh,... coupla mill that I'll sell her. Sight unseen, of course.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 19, 2006, 11:46 AM:
Yes, a tree and bunny hugger, she is.
Years ago, I took the family up to the Sierra's. We rented a boat and fished June Lake. We sat in one spot for hours, with nothing happening and decided to reel it in, and head for the dock.
Everything went fine, until Shelley's (age 6 or 7) line came up and there was a 10" trout floating belly up, having swallowed a cheese ball on a #14 trebble hook; hours ago, judging by the condition? Surprised, I took the rod from her, and she started shrieking:
"Don't kill it! Don't kill it!"
Since then, only the boys have gone fishing.
......yes, the Vet and the Humane shelter both confirmed it was a dead fawn. LB
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 19, 2006, 06:57 PM:
Oh well, just a thought.
My taxidermist has had a trophy 'bobcat' brought in that was an orange tabby so I didn't think that a Jack for a fawn would be to much of a streach.
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on May 19, 2006, 07:02 PM:
A jackrabbit, in Marin County (a lush green thick jungle, on a coastal peninsula) would be harder to swallow than any of the other "facts" in this case.
I'd be just as shocked if the fawn was the size of a cottontail (with long pencils for legs).
I remember seeing a picture of a fawn, curled up in a wide shoebox, at the animal rescue center (they are often found, and assumed abandoned).
That an owl, might make a daylight attempt, to steal away with a fresh blacktail fawn (in the deep dark of a coastal rain forest), and fail at that attempt (espescially in the face of danger, like an approaching vehicle), doesn't sound any more far fetched than many of the things I have seen, or heard of, critters doing.
It's not like she said the owl zoomed skyward with the load, never to be seen again.
I believe her.
My wife, Shelly, is a bunny hugger too (but she will bait her own hook, club her own fish, and cook anything I bring home cleaned... even if she might not eat it).
Krusty
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on June 19, 2006, 01:40 PM:
OK, here's an "opinion" from a falconer. I've had hawks, eagles, falcons, and owls. I've trapped them and taken them from nests for training. I've carried them around on my fist for hours on end. I know what they are capable of "killing" and what a trained bird will "attempt" to kill.
A horned owl won't even consider killing a fawn. Males are smaller than females, which only weigh 3 lbs, anyway. Neither will a redtail, the largest of the buteos in CA. A female redtail is about 3.5 lbs. These birds look large, but they are all feathers.
Vultures and condors are large enough and strong enough, but are physically incapable of the task. They have feet like a chicken and are only capable of scratching and perching. They cannot grasp and clutch like the other raptors. That's why they gorge on carrion, fly back to the nest, and regurgitate to feed their young. Hawks, eagles, falcons, and owls carry prey in their talons back to the nest to feed their young.
The answer to the riddle is golden eagle. They have the power and size, 7' wingspan and up to 18 lbs in wieght. Probably an immature golden which are much darker than than the adults.
A young golden can carry about 7 lbs, where an adult can easily carry 9-10 lbs. This would account for the fawn being dropped. It was a little more than an immature bird was capable of carrying for any significant distance.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on June 19, 2006, 02:24 PM:
Tom, Other than my own and my former boss's, your opinion on all matters raptor is solid as a rock with me. Your remarks pretty much parallel mine and after the last 24 hours, it's good to see someone on this board that I can agree with on something. Now, the big questioon... have you ever shot one and, if so, did I arrest you?
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on June 19, 2006, 03:47 PM:
Lance, in all honesty, I'll fess up. I've never admitted this before, but in 19xx I did it. Not intentional. Well, maybe. A little. Hell, I was only seventeen. Dove hunting in a grove of trees a little after noon. Trying to kick some out of the trees. All of a sudden, a bigassed horned owl comes off a low branch near me. Scared the Shite outta' me. It was just an impulse reaction and I turned and fired from the hip. I didn't even realize what it was until I picked it up.
So that is my transgression. I've spent the rest of my life trying to make it up to birds of prey, every chance I get. Take this last weekend, for example. For 4 days I left offerings of dissected prairie dogs and jack rabbits all over the southern Wy landscape. They didn't even have to break a sweat to dine on that fine buffet I left for them. I hope I'm forgiven. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ June 19, 2006, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: NASA ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 19, 2006, 04:06 PM:
Sic him, Lance!
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on June 19, 2006, 04:28 PM:
Sic 'em? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Hey, what about the statute of limitations?
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on June 19, 2006, 05:27 PM:
Anytime you use "xx", it's a given that the statute of limitations has run out.
Glad to see everyone having a little fun at the expense of my "moral compass". Seems to have pervaded every thread here. I've got a sense of humor. Kinda goes with my short fuse. Oh well.
So, has anyone else watched that Bill Martz video? What did ya think? Y'all don't like me because I act in accordance with the law. Bill doesn't like me because I'm a writer and have no credentials.
Did I ever tell you guys about the time I wrote an article about this one hunt where Bill Marts shot this hawk off a stump while we were hunting on posted ground he cut the lock on the gate going into because the landowner told us we couldn't go in there? If not, remind me about it next time we go hunting together and I'll tell you all about it while they're processing your bail release.
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on June 19, 2006, 05:52 PM:
Lance, that actually was a true story. I may have taken some literary liberties with it, but true none the less.
Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on June 19, 2006, 06:05 PM:
Well that settles it then. I knew it was a golden eagle all the time. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Good to see you NASA. Last night I snuck up on a sleeping nighthawk and almost caught it. I was with-in about 8 feet when my 2nd youngest critter blew it for me. I would take a big step, he'd open his eyes and I'd freeze, he'd close his eyes and I'd sneak forward another big step. I've got really great photos though.
We did succeed in catching 3 mallard ducklings. We took some really great photos of those too. I found a glossy snake in Washington County at about 9:00 pm. and I won't say what I did with it since Lance is reading this. I did email Geoffrey A. Hammerson because according to him the glossy doesn't live in Washington County!
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on June 19, 2006, 07:22 PM:
Hell, Loco,, I already said in that other thread that I bailed you out once. You know I'd do it again, mi amigo. Right?
Posted by Okanagan (Member # 870) on June 19, 2006, 10:07 PM:
Cdog911, maybe I read you wrong after all. Just wandered by here and anyone with your sense of humor can't be all bad. Your last few posts have been hilarious in context of the last day or so.
[ June 19, 2006, 10:07 PM: Message edited by: Okanagan ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 19, 2006, 11:17 PM:
It helps to have a thick hide and a sense of humor on Huntmasters.
It helps to have a thick hide and a sense of humor on Huntmasters.
It helps to have a thick hide and a sense of humor on Huntmasters.
It helps to have a thick hide and a sense of humor on Huntmasters.
It helps to have a thick hide and a sense of humor on Huntmasters.
It helps to have a thick hide and a sense of humor on Huntmasters.
It helps to have a thick hide and a sense of humor on Huntmasters.
It helps to have a thick hide and a sense of humor on Huntmasters.
It helps to have a thick hide and a sense of humor on Huntmasters.
It helps to have a thick hide and a sense of humor on Huntmasters.
It helps to have a thick hide and a sense of humor on Huntmasters.
It helps to have a thick hide and a sense of humor on Huntmasters.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 20, 2006, 03:20 AM:
The grass is green, The sun is warm.
The grass is green, The sun is warm.
The grass is green, The sun is warm.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on June 20, 2006, 04:20 AM:
Okanagan,
My wife can and will attest to the fact that I hold opinions, and I hold them very strongly at times. Right, wrong, or otherwise, I'm stubborn in what I feel is right and no amount of argument will sway me from those beliefs. But, I've learned over the years that there are one or two folks out there that are just like me, but maybe not of like mind. I can respectfully agree to disagree with just about anyone and still get along. That is, up to the point where you whack a hawk right in the middle of a perfectly good stand. It's about there that you better have brought your Nikes and a cell phone.
Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on June 20, 2006, 05:30 AM:
CDog, I am curious if Rich's snake scenario above makes you re-think your black and white view of the law.
Rich was put in a situation of knowingly breaking the law by potentially saving NASA's life.
According to your earlier posts you wouldn't take the shot because you will not knowingly break the law under any circumstance. That is plain wrong in this scenario.
Maybe this will help you to understand one of the reasons why I objected to some of your earlier posts. I would surely like to think that you would smoke that snake in a heartbeat and some of your convictions are slightly less strong than you have stated.
I would like to think that the only repercusions from Rich's snake scenario were related to the stray pellets in NASA's hide.
A good man stands up for his beliefs - a wise man also is not so stubborn that he will not listen to reason.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 20, 2006, 08:15 AM:
Monkey Pile!
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on June 20, 2006, 09:35 AM:
My take on Rich's snake scenario. I would hope that Rich would have said, "Freeze" before pulling the trigger. If the snake were that close, it would be my calf and heel that took the shot, not my butt cheeks. I could walk back to the truck with a snake bite, but not with my Achilles tendon blown off.
The easiest way out of this kind of situation (which I have been in before) is to just flip the snake out of the way with the tip of your gun barrel.
[ June 20, 2006, 09:40 AM: Message edited by: NASA ]
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on June 20, 2006, 09:58 AM:
NASA,
No,No the snake was behind you, remember?
Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on June 20, 2006, 10:58 AM:
Monkey pile? I did not intend my post to be offensive. I have little reason to NOT think that Lance is an honorable human being who would do the "right thing" in a life or death situation.
That said, my point is that we need to be careful with blanket statements like "I would never break a law". Yeah you would, under certain circumstances.
I too can make the claim of having been a writter, having spent about 15 years doing that sort of things years ago. Hundreds of documents, thousands of pages. One of the things that I learned is that you have to be really careful with how you write something - it is amazing how many different interpretations you can get to a sentence that looked perfectly clear to the writter. Misinterpretation of my writing could have been fatal to the reader in many of these documents - I'm very sensitive to how differently things caqn be interpretted. I think this is one reason why I rarely post on these boards, it takes me too long to type a satisfactory response.
That is the fragileness of this medium that all should keep in mind when writting here. If someone objects to what you said, keep an open mind and take a careful look at what you have posted.
Now, I think if that rattler was coiled up ready to strike and within a couple of feet of NASA Lance would blow the hell out of it.
I don't know about NASA, but I'd much rather deal with a couple of pellets in my can than the effects of a snake bite. What a horrible experience that can be.
I do not have any desire to inflame at all. If that is the way that this post is taken I will gladly butt out of this discussion.
Editted because I left out the word NOT above. That would have made my post totally inflamitory and I would have failed in making my point.
[ June 20, 2006, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: JoeF ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 20, 2006, 11:08 AM:
talk about misinterpretation? Joe, my post was poking fun at Lance, and had nothing to do with you, personally. I don't mind ribbing Lance, he's a big boy. Sorry you chose to take it wrong. I may revert to rarely posting if I have to explain and justify every friggin' comment?
Thick skin required and desired; it might be the only way to survive, here?
Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on June 20, 2006, 11:17 AM:
Leonard, I didn't understand the comment so I made sure that my intentions were clear. One never knows.
My skin is real thick, I just don't want to create dissent here because something I wrote might be misinterpreted.
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on June 20, 2006, 12:23 PM:
quote:
NASA,
No,No the snake was behind you, remember?
OK, and does that put you behind me, as well? If I've already walked past him and if he didn't strike then, he's no threat. Except to the next person on the trail behind me. But you've already seen him, so you could easily walk around him now, and once again, no threat.
However, in a real life situation, it's very unlikely I would have walked past any snake without noticing it. (Just ask Loco.) I have an affection for all things herptile. Like that beautiful albino DB you posted. And if you happened to have a phobia about snakes, I'd do my best to help you get over it. (Again, just ask Loco, LOL)
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 20, 2006, 12:28 PM:
Okay, change the scenario to a repulsive, deadly and clearly about to strike scorpion, and with just enough angle for a clear shot....and a tight choke.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on June 20, 2006, 12:38 PM:
"Okay, change the scenario to a repulsive, deadly and clearly about to strike scorpion, and with just enough angle for a clear shot....and a tight choke."
------------
It depends greatly on who the scorpion is aiming at.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on June 20, 2006, 12:39 PM:
I've never understood the need for snakeshot in a handgun. First, I've stepped on several rattlers over the years and I kicked a coiled one once thinking it was a cowpile. It was always faster and safer to move my foot than to draw a gun. I've killed several for the skin and the meat and it was a simple matter of pointing the muzzle at the snakes head from three feet away and settling the matter with a single lead bullet rather than loading up 1 to 6 shotshells that honestly will not kill a sparrow at ten feet from a handgun.
We used to buy 22 rimfire shotshells by the case in Mo. Pass shooting junebugs with a single six is right up there with sporting clays.
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on June 20, 2006, 12:47 PM:
LB, you're not going to believe this, but.....
I actually bring a half dozen large amber pill bottles with me whenever I go out. JUST in case I come across a cool spider, scorpion, centipede, rhino beetle, or whatever.
I guess I'm not a good subject for this discussion. I just don't have a fear of these little creepy crawlers.
[ June 20, 2006, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: NASA ]
Posted by Sue and Mark Nami (Member # 685) on June 20, 2006, 12:49 PM:
Would it make a difference if you didn't have a hunting license when the dirty crime was committed? Ignorance allows for leaniency in many circumstances.
What if you went hunting quail and your 12 year old son shot a dove? That's a Federal crime.
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on June 20, 2006, 01:32 PM:
Carrying a loaded gun into the field without a hunting license? Hmmmmm, had to have been going to do some "target" shooting, right? I smell a loose cannon.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on June 20, 2006, 02:30 PM:
Ignorance is no excuse most of the time. When it comes to fish and Game laws, hang on to your butt my friends.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 20, 2006, 02:34 PM:
Come on Tom. Does it make any sense to carry an unloaded gun into the field? And riddle me this. How many times did you walk in the woods as a twelve year old without a hunting license, but with a 22.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on June 20, 2006, 02:47 PM:
Joe,
I know I'll be called a flip-flopper for this, but I don't recall having said that I would not break a law under any circumstances. If I did, I erred and that was not what I meant to say. And I take no offense at your inquiry. It's a perfectly valid question.
The scenario I submitted was, very simply, one in which you and another guy are out calling. Your "partner" gets bored, sees a hawk on a distant fencepost or pole and shoots it. In this scenario, the hawk posed no threat to you, your "partner" or anything or -one else. It was just sitting there and your "partner" simply demonstrated a sophomoric disregard for the bird and the rule of law that protects it.
In the scenario on this thread, it's a matter of life and/ or limb and the protection of the individual's welfare is easily and unarguably the priority at hand (but only because it's Tom and he kinda sorta agreed with me, but stopped short of committing. In any event, he came closer than anyone else. Then again, had he been bitten it would have been on the ass and since Cronk was the only other person there, someone would have to suck out the venom. If I'm willing to compromise my overly rigid principles to calm the masses, I think Rich oughtta be able to step up and bail NASA's bacon outta the fire. We wouldn't tell. Might sell the pictures or post them online, but never, ever tell.)
If I recall, I also said I had no problem with someone doing what was necessary to protect their personal property. In fact, I recall typing that several times. But, there are available options that fall within the law and proper protocol that produce the same results without doing something illegal.
Shooting a dove accidentally while quail hunting? In a seasoned hunter, such a mistake is less tolerable than it would be with a youngster just starting out. In that instance, a simple admonition by dad would be sufficient enough that he would carry the lesson learned well into adulthood. And no, the boy didn't make himself a felon. He made a mistake.
JoeF,
I know you're familiar with the term "totality of circumstances" and, contrary to what everyone else made me out to be as a result of what they interpreted in my initial post on that thread, I generally consider the totality of circumstances before making any final judgment. In my original scenario, the circumstances were clearly one in which the "partner" simply shot a hawk because he was bored or restless or whatever. It wasn't a careless mistake or misidentification. He didn't shoot at something else and the bullet traveled downrange and struck the hawk. He deliberately made the decision to aim, shoot and kill the hawk.
And while the subject is at hand, the rest of the variants I suggested on that thread were intentional just to see if it would make a difference to anyone. The first scenario centered around a hawk - federally protected non-game species causing no one grief and giving no one any reason to shoot because of damage or whatever. Just the wrong place at the wrong time. Deer and squirrels are game species, but the latter is typically a "big game animal" and generally offered greater respect and afforded higher ranking than a tree rat. No one zeroed on that which surprised me.
Non-game species like songbirds? No one ever thinks about shooting a sparrow or cardinal and God only knows how much most people hate bluejays, but do you know the penalty for shooting them under the Migratory Bird Act?
Long story less long - An animal causing damage that needs to be eliminated to resolve the problem or an animal threatening the well-being of another person are justifiable instances when lethal force can and should be used. No crime there. If time allows, work within the law. If not, do what you need to do.
Shooting an animal out of season or an animal that has full blanket protection as a non-game species simply because you're bored and have no regard for the law is just plain out of line.
I don't feel that thinking that way makes me a hard ass, but rather, someone that observes and respects the law and has found that he can live within those guidelines quite well. Seems to me that a lot of other guys got awfully bent out of shape over what they thought I meant when, all along, I was just laying down a scenario to feel out the scruples of people that post here. Let's say you're out with the same guy, he's driving, and he pulls up to a locked gate. He gets out to unlock the gate since you assume he has permission. At least, that's what you think he's doing until he reaches into the toolbox and pulls out a set of bolt cutters, cuts the lock, climbs back in and say how the landowner can go F himself 'cause he doesn't need no friggin' permission. At what point do you ask him to stop and get out of his truck?
Shooting non-game and game out of season and criminal trespassing are two pretty blatant examples that scream "slob hunter" at me, and I recall, as but a wee lad, being hauled to the Principal's office one morning - must have been in the first grade - because I got caught standing in a group of young boys laughing while one of our compadres drew some rather risque pictures on the blackboard. I can still remember that guy telling me that even though I didn't do the drawing, I stood there and didn't make any effort to walk away (at the very least) and better yet, stop the others from being a part of it. In doing so, I indirectly, but most certainly condoned the actions of those in the wrong and, in that sense, I shared the guilt with them.
I know the kind of writing you speak of, Joe. There are file cabinets full of case reports and run forms, many of which carry my signature from my SO and EMS days, and each of them represents me and my credibility in my absence, and forever will. But, the position I have with T&PC magazine is extremely important to me - moreso than those run forms. One indiscretion in the field - whether by me or by someone with whom I am hunting - may be all it takes to destroy my credibility as an outdoor writer and a sportsman and I simply will not risk over fifteen years of hard work in exchange for one moment of carelessness and poor judgment. I am very discreet about who I hunt with, as I am sure you were very careful about who you were associated with during your law enforcement days. IMO, no difference between the two. I get asked to go hunting by a lot of guys. Many of them don't get the chance because my background check on them reveals that they're well known by the game wardens in the area and not because of their hunting prowess. The old, "In God we trust - everyone else goes thru NCIC" routine. I know you've been there, done that.
Anyway, your question was a good one and very valid. I hope I answered it to your satisfaction. And, then some.
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on June 20, 2006, 03:21 PM:
At least Leonard found it easy to figure out.
Whether you agree or not, Ignorance IS bliss. Game Law breakers in possession of a hunting license are regularly held more accountable than someone who does NOT have a license. Is it right? Maybe yes. Maybe no.
The law (all law) is very selective depending on the mood of the day. If you've ever dealt with any court or attorney, then it should be obvious. Right and wrong doesn't mean squat. Prime example: Kennedy's recent Impaired Driving fiasco, Illegal border crossings, OJ Simpson, Bankruptcy privileges, Spitting on a Whitehouse Security Guard, Hot McDonalds coffee between the thighs and Clinton lying under oath. Money talks and Stupid walks. Anyway shooting a hawk is the best way to get a close-up look-see at it.
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on June 20, 2006, 03:44 PM:
quote:
Come on Tom. Does it make any sense to carry an unloaded gun into the field? And riddle me this. How many times did you walk in the woods as a twelve year old without a hunting license, but with a 22.
You're not keeping up with the thread! Forget 12 yr olds. (1) they don't need a license; (2) we're talking about 2 adults.
If they're hunting it would be prudent to have a valid hunting license on their person. Otherwise, pay the fine! (Who wants to go hunting with a scofflaw, anyway?)
If they're not hunting, then the assumption is target shooting. The scenario is they are walking (to somewhere) and a critter is underfoot. Why is the gun already loaded? Safety says load up when you get to the designated shooting area. Not back at the truck. That's the way I taught my kids.
(edit) quote:
shooting a hawk is the best way to get a close-up look-see at it
It is one way, but not the best. The best way is with a pigeon harness or a dome trap. Either one is harmless and the hawk can be immediately released.
[ June 20, 2006, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: NASA ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 20, 2006, 04:34 PM:
quote:
Would it make a difference if you didn't have a hunting license when the dirty crime was committed? Ignorance allows for leaniency in many circumstances.
What if you went hunting quail and your 12 year old son shot a dove? That's a Federal crime. Sue Nami
quote:
Carrying a loaded gun into the field without a hunting license? Hmmmmm, had to have been going to do some "target" shooting, right? I smell a loose cannon. NASA
quote:
Come on Tom. Does it make any sense to carry an unloaded gun into the field? And riddle me this. How many times did you walk in the woods as a twelve year old without a hunting license, but with a 22. LB
quote:
You're not keeping up with the thread! Forget 12 yr olds. (1) they don't need a license; (2) we're talking about 2 adults.
A twelve year old shoots a dove by mistake, instead of a quail. Then you suggest "target shooting" and recommend that the gun should be unloaded? Who's not following the thread, Amigo?
The question is: (which you completely missed)Should the boy be left to walk fourten miles without a cellphone, or should Dad turn him in at the nearest jail, and then post bail?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on June 20, 2006, 04:42 PM:
You're right, I saw the question as two separate "what if" scenarios. These kinds of conversations are so much easier around a campfire, aren't they?
Posted by Brad Norman (Member # 234) on June 20, 2006, 04:58 PM:
That depends on who's around the campfire.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on June 20, 2006, 05:41 PM:
Tom, as I read Jay's post he implied that shooting a hawk is the best way to see the legal system at work.
Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on June 20, 2006, 05:47 PM:
Are we having fun yet? Communicating an open minded worthwhile message or two?
If not, I give.
Point of clarification:
I have never been directly employeed by a law enforcement agency or organization.
Not exactly sure how I gave that impression....
I have close and personal relationships - the emphasis being on personal - with people that I will never disclose in a thread that contains the term "chickenhawk".
I've had loose association with Leonards beloved CHP. They brought an "old guy" out of retirement in the early 80's to write a specification for a communications system. As a young guy I did the engineering work on that. It was a great education for me. I learned a ton, including the fact that one of the CHP tower sites gave a great "chickenhawks" view of the Hearst Mansion. If you could review the design documentation you'd see the sign-off of JLF often. Unfortunately, it was a solution to a problem specified by a guy who was about 3 human generations and 7 electronics generations old. It remained in service less than a decade.
Beyond that, I had a closer association with another employer that made a bit of survailence equipment that was a bit too good to comply with our domestic nancy-boy laws. Close enough that I now have somewhat impaired hearing in my right ear.
My reference to documents that I have created refers to procedural efforts. If you poke the wrong point you might get electrocuted.
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on June 20, 2006, 06:00 PM:
Actually the father is responsible and therefore is guilty (unless the mother is watching). He should hand over his cellphone and car keys to the 12 year old and start humping it towards town. The boy gets to drive away giving him a thrill of his lifetime. At least the airbags work. I hope the dad learned something from all this.
Higgins, I would have bet money nobody would have caught that. You're good.
[ June 20, 2006, 06:01 PM: Message edited by: Jay Nistetter ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 20, 2006, 06:26 PM:
I say give the kid a verbal warning and let it go at that
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 20, 2006, 06:30 PM:
Joe, I knew you were never a narc. Musician, yes. Easterner, yes. Model 788 user, yes. Veteran coyote hunter, yeah.
But, former cop? I never heard that one? LB
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 20, 2006, 07:24 PM:
Just for shits and giggles here is the price list for shooting great horned owls;
one gray owl: 850.00
4 owls: 3,400.00
10 owls 6,800.00
It seems that if you shoot 10 or more you get a discount of 170.00.
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on June 20, 2006, 07:44 PM:
[ June 20, 2006, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: NASA ]
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on June 20, 2006, 08:41 PM:
Joe,
My bad. I coulda swore you had been a law dog in an earlier life. Mia culpa.
Leave it to Higgins to see something like that in amongst all this.
Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on June 21, 2006, 05:25 AM:
CDog, no harm. I only pointed it out because people who know me personally pass through here on occasion. I'd hate for them to think I was living some sort of internet fantasy here on this board.
In light of that thought.... uh......
Hey Leonard, would you mind changing the word "veteran" in your post above to something less flattering like "amatuer"? LOL
Note - this board is doing something weird - the text in the box down below is from another thread. I closed this out twice and the text below does not match the thread I want to reply to. Here's to hoping that this post winds up somewhere where it will make a little bit of sense....
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on June 21, 2006, 05:58 AM:
one gray owl: 850.00
4 owls: 3,400.00
10 owls 6,800.00
1 chicken hawk: PRICELESS
Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on June 21, 2006, 07:06 AM:
Rich, that was funny!
P.S. The text in the box below where I'm entering this has posts from May 14th on a different topic. Different PC than earlier.
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on June 21, 2006, 08:01 AM:
Joe
I think this thread was started in May?
I might as well get this off my chest. I think the original post had or has a fair amount of arrogance,condescension or as someone else stated self-righteousness. I'm hope that wasn't the intent, but to me it sure came out that way.
Do I know farmers who intentionally shoot red tails because they think they are killing their quail? Do I know people that have two or three times the possesion limit of catfish in the freezer because they're saving them for the annual Forth Of July fish fry? How about a friend that does alot of business travel and occasionally takes home a couple of gallons of moonshine from PA? How about a family member(wife) who intentionally tore off the do not remove tag from a mattress? Yes to all of those and I as of yet haven't called the "authorities" on them.
Have I called in a discovered meth lab in a old abandoned silo? An apparent drunk driver who was weaving all over the road? Yes
My point being that I'm very comfortable in my interpertation on what's my moral and legal obligation to society and I reallly don't need some sort of guilt trip because I see it different than someone else. I have no real interest in policing the world, it's not my fricken job.
Don't we have more things to worry about? Like full term babies being ripped out of their mothers wombs and then thown in trash cans.
Dennis
[ June 21, 2006, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: Greenside ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 21, 2006, 09:30 AM:
First, I'm just yankin' your chain, Joe.
I knew you would squirm at "Veteran" and thought you would also object to "easterner"? Just my way of messing with a friend.
Now, Dennis!
Your post pretty well caps the whole discussion. I can agree with those principles, and the attitude behind them.
Good hunting. LB
edit: On one point, however. I must confess. I will not condone ripping the tag off a mattress. It's just not the way I was brought up!
[ June 21, 2006, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on June 21, 2006, 10:32 AM:
Leonard,
I knew you were and I was playing along; besides, I guess you can be veteran and amateur...... maybe you'd better go back and change that to "rank amateur".....
I was ignoring the easterner part. We're all east of somebody.
P.S. The stuff below matches now - what I saw before ended in may...????
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on June 21, 2006, 11:45 AM:
"Money talks and Stupid walks. Anyway shooting a hawk is the best way to get a close-up look-see at it."
------------
Jay, does it depend highly upon who see's ya shoot it?
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on June 21, 2006, 12:58 PM:
You know it does RC.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on June 21, 2006, 03:50 PM:
UBB.classicTM
6.3.0