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Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on July 18, 2006, 05:28 PM:
Since all the Masters have either left or been banned over at PM, are they going to start calling it Predator Amateurs?.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 18, 2006, 05:48 PM:
that's funny!
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on July 18, 2006, 06:48 PM:
Someone had suggested "Amateur Masters". ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Ronnie, you going up to WY this weekend? Oppps, never mind. That was Lonny not Ronnie.
[ July 18, 2006, 06:52 PM: Message edited by: NASA ]
Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on July 18, 2006, 07:28 PM:
Damn Tom. I wish I had come up with that one. No wonder I can't spell varmint.
Posted by Brad Norman (Member # 234) on July 18, 2006, 08:20 PM:
I wanted to ask them if they were going to call in "Predator Novist". I know it's not a word but it should be. It sounds better than novice.
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on July 18, 2006, 09:46 PM:
Feels like a damned AA meeting......"Hi, my name is Vic Carlson,and Ive been banned by PredatorAmateurs.com". Very strange, Ive been a member on that site, longer than the adminstrators that banned me from it?
Guess, Im relegated to the lone outpost of pampass ass knowitalls....no where else to run now:)
[ July 18, 2006, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: Az-Hunter ]
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on July 18, 2006, 10:44 PM:
Guess I missed it. What happened over there? Link?
Posted by Jack Roberts (Member # 13) on July 18, 2006, 11:25 PM:
No big deal but if you become a PITA and ignore repeated warnings to tone it down, you get suspended for a while. Nobody has been banned and at least in my mind all your input is welcome.
Jack
Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on July 19, 2006, 05:00 AM:
There is something about a simple mind like mine that loves watching the inevitible and hearing the obvious. I love re-runs too.
It seems each web savvy predator caller must go through the phase of thinking Predator Masters is the epitomy of hunting forums. Then, in time, he realizes he's surrounded by internet experts, capitolists egocentrics and another group of good folks that have yet to see the light.
Jack, it's funny you say nobody has been banned. I'd like to file a formal complaint, my password hasn't worked since I posted this picture and you sent me an email telling me "The vote to remove you passed"?????
[ July 19, 2006, 05:01 AM: Message edited by: Jrbhunter ]
Posted by TheHuntedOne (Member # 623) on July 19, 2006, 05:30 AM:
Unfortunately Jack, that only applies to the members. Moderators are alowed to do what ever they want, say what they want, to who they want, in any forum they want and the members who disagree with them are called ignorant, stupid, disruptive, an a host of other things in the open forum.
Then come the Private Messages. They get even better. Things like "you've been warned" and "I'm not discussing this with you, consider yourself warned". Moderators have the last word in every debate. The final word in every discussion, and dont you DARE go against them. Even when they are DEAD WRONG, or worse, abusive to the membership.
I've been down that road with a few of you guys over there, and I sure don't have a problem naming names if you're interested.
You are either part of the good old boys club, and do everything the way they want you to or you are out.
I've supported that site with money and donations for a while now. But it has changed. You moderators are responsable for that change. You only encourage open debate when it fits your view of the subject. You don't want members, you want lemings.
Predator Masters is still a cost effective advertising tool for me, but as far as anything else, I don't even bother posting there any more. It just isn't worth it. For a guy who hunts 4 or 5 days a week, it's pretty hard to be told how to do it, when to do it and what to do it with by someone who hunts once a month, or less.
Sorry Leonard, I used to be a big supporter of Predator Masters, even made some comments to that effect on this board, and you and I had a couple of E mails about it. To your credit, yours were polite and respectful. Maybe I should post some of the ones I have gotten from PM?
And no, I have not been banned, only because I just gave up. I probably will be now, or on August 8th when my advertising account comes due and they refuse to renew it for this post.
I can live with that. I just hope PM can live with the fact that they really are becoming Predator Amatures.
Al Woodard
THO Game Calls
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on July 19, 2006, 05:35 AM:
I must have missed it all to? Who all got banned, or suspended, or whatever? It wasn't over that "debate" thread was it? I read that thread, and my take on it was that the guy in the do-rag started bagging on Mr. Higgins, Mr. Carlson and Mr. Taylor, and they mildly defended themselves. Surely, that's not why y'all got banned??
- DAA
Posted by TheHuntedOne (Member # 623) on July 19, 2006, 06:21 AM:
Here's a great example.
There's a guy over there who has hunted coyotes for one season. He has been registered for 9 months. He makes an average of 5 post a DAY, and now, he is on a Pro Staff, filming a video, and teaching people how to use hand calls.
But don't argue with him because he is in the loop.
Heck, I've only been at this for 5 or 6 years now. I still have my predator hunting diapers on, and I am fully aware that they are often full of crap. More often than not. And I have the busted stands, tick bites, mosquito bites, sun burn, and worn boots to prove it. But none of that is as important as a good old case of hemroids from sitting in front of a computer screen all day and thinking about killing coyotes.
Well, I best go before i get myself in real trouble.
Al
THO Game Calls
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on July 19, 2006, 07:34 AM:
THO, wow your post was straight out of my mind.
I undoubtedly pushed the envelope June 10th when I was debating some unimportant issue with plumbrich. He called me Higgy, which I allow only to my friends, so I called him plumbitch. Redfrog PMed me with a strict warning which I honored. I received no other communications from PM staff other than a public exchange with BS in the predator forum. That was simply an exchange of opposing views. BS was antagonistic and I was restrained and respectful. Read the posts for yourself ,Jack.
Because I had earlier told Redfrog that their policy regarding disrespectful posts was a good one and should apply to everyone including him, and after BS threatened to hand me my hat and show me the door and GUESS asked that the three of us be banned "because the membership has spoken" all in open forum, I knew the punch was coming. So I told BS that his was only one voice and it required a majority vote of the staff to ban me, and that I believed that the moderators of the other forums were "clearminded men of goodwill and I'm not going anywhere". I obviously overestimated the objectivity of the majority of the staffers. I appealed to all to enter my profile, click onto my posts and read them objectively, without the negative influence of all the crap that surrounded them in the threads.
Apparently fairness is not a big enough concern to PM staff to invest in a ten minute read.
Cal Taylor and I attacked no one. We did defend ourselves well enough that our fellow debaters flooded the moderators with complaints and requests to remove their profiles.
There are several good men over there stil, including some moderators.
I had been communcating with a fellow caller in Iraq through pms and when he returns this week to base from Fallujah he will pm his APO so that I can send him some calling videos. A sixteen year old kid had appealed for help with books and videos so I had sent three DVDs and told him I would send three more when he returned those. I lost contact with them since I have been locked out and I can not even read posts over there. I sent Michael McCasland the notices of suspension and did not receive a reply. I tried Randy Blacks cell phone several times and did not receive a reply. I tried Crapshoots email and Lance answered immediately and gave me the emails I needed for those two.
Several of the custom callmakers have agreed to make and donate calls to me for prizes for the AZ State Calling Championship nexy week. All communication has been through pms. Maybe some will read this and contact me here.
Admittedly there were some chuckles in those threads. I especially liked the post from BS in which he implied that Cal Taylor and other "pros" were no better that he. That was laugh out loud funny. Larry Holmes famous quote popped into my head. "He couldn't even carry my jockstrap."
I've hunted with Cal Taylor and I've hunted for a couple of days with BS.
Cal, you have to carry your own jockstrap. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by Plumbrich (Member # 578) on July 19, 2006, 07:59 AM:
THO I read the same thing it makes me laugh at what an idiot one must be.That also has to tell you something about the guy that put him on the pro staff to begin with.I mean wouldn't most professional coyote hunters want someone with real world experience.
I see it all the time in the plumbing industry someone fixes a few leaks reads a few books and BAM 6 months later there telling everyone there a PLUMBER.
I also think people on the tax payer payroll should be doing there job not calling coyotes and surfing the Internet during work hours.
I'll get off that soap box awhile for now.
I don't agree with a lot of what NASA,VIC and RICH say and they more than likely wouldn't agree with me.We live in two different parts of the country and hunt totally different terrain.
Does that mean Iam right and they are wrong NO it means we disagree If I was there I would be all ears and listen and follow along because they no more about coyotes were they are than I would ever know.
Like life, wannabes always try and push to the front of the line.I will let them get on the box car first, and I will wait and see were its headed before I jump on board.
If someone is offended by what they read on an Internet board they should consider moving back in with the parents they obviously haven't grown up.
Posted by Plumbrich (Member # 578) on July 19, 2006, 08:02 AM:
The Plumbitch was a very good one I still laugh at my self. ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
Just remember HIGGY I still owe you. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posted by TheHuntedOne (Member # 623) on July 19, 2006, 08:24 AM:
Well Mr Higgins,
I stayed out of that thread because I know that I couldn't (and wouldn't so don't even ask) carry yours or Mr Taylors jock straps. Or a lot of other guys on these boards.
Wish I smart enough to keep my mouth shut on other topics though. But some things are just right and some are just wrong. If you don't stand up when they are wrong, you might as well be wearing pink panties and give up any hopes of every having your own jock strap.
Al
THO Game Calls
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on July 19, 2006, 08:40 AM:
I am starting to see some waves. I had one of their major advertisers call me this morning, out of the blue. They basically offered me a Pro Staff position and said they were thinking very seriously of pulling all of their advertising dollars from there. I'll have more details soon, but I can see that this may cost them more than they think.
Jack, I like and respect your opinions, but the insult of the time out is the same as an all out ban to me. I'm not the type to go back in 30 days with my hat in my hand and say "yes sir" and "please". If I can't post valid opinions and facts with worry of backlash, I don't need to be there and have asked them to completely remove my account. Every opinion should be valid if backed with solid evidence and experience. I have seen you personally post some scalding dialog both here and there, as bad or worse than what I got the axe for, But you haven't gotten banned for it either here or there. Here because good solid info is respected by Leonard, and there because you are a moderator.
Oh, and my hats off to Leonard for letting this be discussed here.
[ July 20, 2006, 06:28 AM: Message edited by: Cal Taylor ]
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on July 19, 2006, 08:47 AM:
So, Rich - you have really been "suspended" or banned, or whatever the Hell they want to call it? For the "healthy debates" thread? And Vic too? Did Cal get whacked also?
I know it isn't really any of my business, but it just blows my mind that they would clip you guys over something as trivial as that thread? Did they ban GUESS too? He started all the crap, from where I sit?
Never hung out much in the calling forum at PM anyway, for obvious reasons. But if they are banning you for something that lame, I need to think about whether I want to be associated with PM at all. As of now, I've got them linked from my website, and I have a banner ad up with them. I don't want to be hasty, but it sounds like I should at least be thinking about disassociating myself from the site.
- DAA (apparently a leg humping pampass ass)
Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on July 19, 2006, 09:31 AM:
What a shame, I supose this is the internet version of a gang's colors?
Too, bad. I'd just recently started viewing that forum again a bit here lately. Lots of good people there, some from my part of the country.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 19, 2006, 11:25 AM:
Hmmm, guess I should take a look?
edit: okay, I looked and couldn't find it, so unless someone wants to email me a link, I can't use the frigging search engine unless I log in, and I can't log in because I'm banned. LB
[ July 19, 2006, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on July 19, 2006, 11:59 AM:
Now thats funny Leonard. I would like to help you out but i can't even get registered on that site. LOL
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on July 19, 2006, 01:15 PM:
DAA, As far as I know Higgins, Myself, and Vic got the spankin. And Nasa was close. As I stated in the above thread, I know for a fact that some advertisers are planning on pulling out, and it was unsolicited on my part. I actually hadn't mentioned it to anyone, except the other members that got axed, but some are taking it upon themselves to show their displeasure with the situation.
[ July 19, 2006, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: Cal Taylor ]
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on July 19, 2006, 01:27 PM:
Leonard, Look in the Predator Forum for the topic "healthy debates" its at least six pages long. It's hard to make sense of what that guess guy is saying because he edited some of his posts hours after the original post. I cannot understand why someone would go back hours later and edit out what they originally said?
If Cal, Rich and Vic got banned over that thread its a cryin' damn shame.
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on July 19, 2006, 01:50 PM:
Guess wants to be a PM Mod and this is his way of showing the crew he can be a loyal lackey.
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on July 19, 2006, 02:11 PM:
You guys are rookies when it comes to getting banned.
I did a search for "Higgins" over there and all I found was *******.
Then I looked for "Cal" and "Vic" and all I got was ***
But the good news is I can type ****** over there and it shows up.
[ July 19, 2006, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: Jay Nistetter ]
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on July 19, 2006, 03:21 PM:
Well I did a search on "Higgy" over there and all I got was a sound bite of owls hooting.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 19, 2006, 03:28 PM:
Touche' but I never got credit for UNBANNING "Jay"! Just the word, not the peep.
This Glenn Guess is someone I have had words with, before; over an observation that his selfserving promotional photos, over on HuntAmerica. That's where he coined the term "Pampass know it alls" on Huntmasters, and we had some fun with it. No matter, Byron says he is a good guy, he can register and post here, if he wants?
Okay, I will make another voyeur scouting trip, thanks Lonny.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on July 19, 2006, 03:53 PM:
Leonard,
If I didn't before....
Thanks for unbanning me.... I think.... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
That wasn't what got you banned was it? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
[ July 19, 2006, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Jay Nistetter ]
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on July 19, 2006, 04:07 PM:
Better be careful Jay, last time you pushed Leonard's button's, he took away your vowels.
We don't want to see that again!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 19, 2006, 04:38 PM:
You guys are a scream! For the last friggin' time, I never banned Jay Nistetter, I banned the word, "Jay". Got it? As in *** Nistetter? Oh yeah, I did ban his "vowels" once, but I was provoked.
Okay, I just spent what seemed like an hour reviewing that thread? Other than some very valid observations, I didn't see a bannable offense? But what do I know, everybody I ever banned has been unbanned within days, (if not hours ) so I seldom screw with it.
I do agree with the principle of dissent, as Vic stated so eloquently. (I thought)? I also agree with the "look at me" self promotion by a certain individual, and the obvious pandering; the whole thing. Everybody has seen it.
Anyway, you guys (you know who you are) have a home right here on Huntmasters. And you piss me off when you stray off the re$ervation. Don't make me bring it up again!
Good hunting. LB
Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on July 19, 2006, 06:01 PM:
I haven't been around here, or the internet for very long myself, BUT it looks like to me from the time I've been around at PM, it is quickly growing in numbers of "want to be no it alls", where at least over here, a guy gets to hang out with the true, "no it alls"!! In the short couple of years of being a member over there, I've now witnessed no less than about 10 guys that new thier way around a coyote better than most, but yet they either got banned or got hasseled to the point of no return!!
Way to keep the door open Leonard!! This place will only reap the benefits!!!
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on July 19, 2006, 06:08 PM:
Dave, all three of us are presently persona non grata courtesy of BS.
Guess did edit his most inflammatory remarks including the jewel about the three of us following Leonard around the 'net wanting to suckle.(Isn't that tantamount to calling LB a bitch?) Since it is doubtful that Guess is bright enough to consider the future implications of that post I would assume that he did that at the request of BS who would find it difficult to justify suspending us but not the author of the worst of the posts on that thread. Disingenuous at best.
Since I am a paid advertiser at PM, do I receive a refund for the 30 days of my suspension? Since that would be fair I can pretty much rule it out. BS is in charge of advertising since Jim Champion got fed up with him and left.
How about you Cal? Gonna ask for a refund?
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on July 19, 2006, 06:19 PM:
Forgot to mention that NASA received a warning from Redfrog AKA Pink Toady to shape up or join the three of us. Nasa did absolutely nothing but promote good discussion on those threads. He never fueled any fires. That notice was totally out of line.
LB mentioned Vic's eloquent discourse and I absolutely agree . I was also very impressed with Greenside's wonderfully clear and concise treatment of the internet expert phenomenom. The best I have read so far. That razor wit slashed a bunch of guys to the bone and they didn't even know it. Absolutely brilliant.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 19, 2006, 06:27 PM:
He said that about ME....I mean, them?
that's not a nice thing to say about such a stellar group of folks.
Lord help me, I almost resorted to name calling!
But, that IS a punk ass remark that (most likely) would not be said, face to face. Especially Higgins. That guy could rip your arms off and stuff them up your ass, starting at the elbow.
I always wondered; just what is it with that hankie tied on his head, pirate style? Is he bald, or what?
Okay, enough mouthing off from me.
Good hunting. LB
[ July 19, 2006, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on July 19, 2006, 06:28 PM:
I just read the entire thing and thought, "Geesh, that doesn't even come remotely close to some of our own little hissy fits here at good ol' HM." Some of 'em around here were insulting as hell but we were all laughing too hard at the other guys' misfortune in the hot seat that we forgot to get too pissed off ourselves.
Interestingly, there were respectable efforts at places by some folks to draw heretofore innocent bystanders into a fight that they, at that point, enjoyed no part of. Dennis' remark about hobby callmakers' prostaff made me laugh out loud.
All in all, that thread pretty much walked toward offending anyone and everyone, but Glenn deleted so much of his stuff that it was impossible to not take some of the remaining material out of context.
Oh well, at least I found out about the origins of the pampass knowitalls remark. Sometimes I get busy and don't stay up on all the "impotent "stuff.
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on July 19, 2006, 06:48 PM:
I had an interesting study session for 30 minutes or so today. Try "googling" a couple names, I tried "Murray Burnham","Gerald Stewart", and a couple other names well known in the predator hunting world,and each turned up a half dozen hits or so. Then punch in "glenn guess"....man oh man, take a deep seat,and prepare for some reading:)
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on July 19, 2006, 08:01 PM:
Uhhh,...Leonard? Let's not go down the insulting the balding guy road, huh? Thank you.
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on July 19, 2006, 08:59 PM:
Well Ill be damned. Looks as if you boys went and done it. Your messin with a member of Team Hamerdog. Not just that, but the head TV star and media spokesman of the group at that!! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Posted by yuccabush (Member # 582) on July 19, 2006, 09:01 PM:
What the heck is team hummerdog?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 19, 2006, 10:38 PM:
Don't know? But, it SOUNDS important. Hope we don't wind up with Team Hammerdog all mad at us! Must be something like the HARP Seals or Delta Burke, nobody to mess with.
Next stop....Las Vegas
SW Flight#2219/Indianapolis. I'd tell you why, but I'd have to kill myself.
See y'all in about four days....be good. LB
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on July 19, 2006, 10:55 PM:
http://www.pensacolafishingforum.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=21495&posts=5
Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on July 19, 2006, 11:43 PM:
Have fun and be safe Leonard! House shopping are we?
Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on July 20, 2006, 12:07 AM:
This has been a wonderfully entertaining thread even with out reading the PM thread. I've already learned a lot of stuff...really great stuff - origin of PKIA's. Leonard banned "Jay". LOL He actually banned Jay's vowels once? LOL I'd love to see that. Vic, Cal, and Hig' suckling? LOL This is really a fun thread! Cal' gets banned and then gets a job offer! Lance comes out of hiding. The other Lance comes to Rich's rescue. Rich Cronk makes a funny joke. The whole thing is wonderfully entertaining for me.
The only thing that concerns me is that RedFrog has grown a team spirit. He was once one of my only supporters over there (I think). He is one hell of a neat guy and has always had a great sense of humor. Granted its been years since I've been over there. I had no idea he was wearing a handle like Pink Toady. LOL Where the heck did that come from?!?! If your out there lurking Red', "Hello!"
Vic, Rich, Cal', Sorry to hear you guys got the axe! NASA you have a knack for being in the right place at the wrong time. Temporarily or otherwise. I know it really sucks. Especially when you are cut off from communicating with lots of your other friends because of the decision of a few. Doesn't quite seem right.
I even had to laugh at myself on this thread. I thought Jack misspelled PETA. I always thought a PITA was a yummy flat bread not a Pain In The Bummy. I about fell off my chair. At first, I thought Jack was trying to make a funny. LOL
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on July 20, 2006, 04:43 AM:
Indianapolis is beautiful this time of the year. Just this past week, record highs of about 145 degrees with enough humidity that you don't have to worry about watering the lawn. I suspect Kansas will have gators by this time Tuesday. Just yesterday, we hit a balmy 111. With humidity. They say, "It's the humidity". Really? I think it's a little of both and they can both go to hell. Then again, this feels like hell so I guess they're here. Oops, there I went and used that "guess" word again. So solly. Not thinking straight these days. Carrying mail in this crap is brutal. 'It's the humidity'.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on July 20, 2006, 05:37 AM:
Wow... I'm awful disapointed, to say the least. Going to have to think about this. Leaning towards pulling my freight over there though. Just seems like the right thing to do.
Bummer...
- DAA
Posted by TheHuntedOne (Member # 623) on July 20, 2006, 05:59 AM:
PM has almost 15000 members. The bang for the buck is actually pretty good. My E bay store fees cost me twice if not more what I pay to advertise on PM a year.
However, with 15,000 members, it's like an old Jimmy Buffet song, "You've got Fins to the left of you, Fins to the right, and your're the only bait in town."
Most of these guys will never show up here because they know they would get their butts handed to them in a tea cup in a heart beat. As some already have.
Al
THO Game Calls
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on July 20, 2006, 06:10 AM:
Hi Danny. It all is kind of a chuckle, isn't it. Too bad you thought Jack's post was funny though. Actually Jack coming over here, dismissing the whole event as "no big deal" and calling the three of us PITAs perfectly illustrates the dismissive, arrogant, attitude that is fostered by BS and Redfrog. Not to mention hypocritical, call a moderator a "Pain In The Ass" will get you banned. But "no big deal", Jack.
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on July 20, 2006, 06:48 AM:
I'm so far behind on computer talk, I didn't even know Jack was dismissing me as a pain in the ass until Higgins told me what pita meant. Thats damn funny, I don't care who you are! Well, I guess we know which way his vote went! That has been the fun part is slowly going down the list of moderators and figureing out who voted which way. I think I have figured out pretty much how the secret vote went. It's good to know who your friends really are. It amazes me that some of the guys I'm sure "secretly" voted against me, have literally begged me to come hunt with me, or sell them a dog, or something along those lines.
The worst part for all of the guys that voted us out is that I think Higgins is pissed. At least that was the impression I got when he was on the phone quoting Wyatt Earp in the movie "Tombstone".
"You called down the thunder, and now you got it!"
"You tell them I'm coming, and hell's coming with me!"
I swear, thats what he was yelling.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on July 20, 2006, 07:49 AM:
LOL, Been smokin' that wackey stuff growin' in your pasture again?
Wrong movie Cal. It was more like
"Jihad! Jihad!" LOL
Admittedly, I'm pissed at BS and his hypocritical tirades he launced at us. I know too much about the guy for that to go down easy. Quite simply I think his initials say it all.
There are other moderators on the board that are good men. That is why I was baffled when Redfrog told NASA that the vote was almost unanimous. I don't believe it unless several didn't vote for one reason or another.
If the novices and toadies that hang on BS's every word were to attach themselves to Brent Saxton it would turn that board around. Brent is every bit the caller that BS represents himself to be.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on July 20, 2006, 08:16 AM:
Al, I run my banner over there primarily in support of the site. Not their fault, at all, but my videos and my personality just don't resonate on that board. Looking at my traffic logs for my site, and the traffic reports they send me, I think they get more visitors coming to them from my site, than I get coming from theirs. In the years I've been running that banner, I think I can count the number of actual orders I've got off of it on my fingers and toes. Put it this way -- I ran a special last year that I posted on two boards, PM and GGVG. I got over 80 orders from the GGVG board. Exact same message/special posted on PM, I got 3 orders. Again - NOT their fault, just the way it is and I'm too lazy to try and change it. Point being though, I won't be losing any business if I pull my freight. Likewise, I'm sure they wouldn't miss my small support at all either. Which is good, I really don't want to cause any harm.
- DAA
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on July 20, 2006, 08:19 AM:
Am I mistaken (again) or hasn't it been said that banning someone has to be a unanimous decision over there?
But then again there's so much BS posted on these forums who knows.
It's sad that this hobby/sport is quickly becoming so commercialized that almost everyone has a hidden or not so hidden agenda.
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on July 20, 2006, 08:23 AM:
I too have been amused by this thread. For several reasons.
It strikes me funny that the idiots at PM would rather defend the wannabes and know it alls, or at least they think they know it all, and ban folks that actually do know something about predators. I never did like that site. I would much rather listen to someone like Rich, Vic and Cal than a hundred BS stories from computer hunters. I havent been on that site alot, but havent seen one regular over there that could hold a candle to the ones banned.
Jack, your comments pretty much sums up the attitude. Quantity of members means much more to PM than quality. Nuff said.
Another amusing thing was following Vics advice and googling Glenn Guess. The cheif Hamerdog himself. That was some entertaining reading. Oh, and I didnt know he was Dillons personal guide!!
I guess Im lost on one thing. Who is BS?
Anyway, they can have that site. I hadnt been there in a long while, until yesterday. I see nothing has changed.
Oh, and I see they have given free reign to the Roadhunter, I mean, Houndsman forum. Vargy and Aaron are the poster children for the guys that I absolutely despise around the midwest. The hound wagon boys. Trespassing, hanging out the window shooting types.
Just some of my humble observations that struck me funny.
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on July 20, 2006, 08:36 AM:
Andy, you've got the wrong impression of Vargy. I've been out with him on a few chases. He doesn't do it the way you think. Others might, but he doesn't "shoot out the window". His dogs run to ground, then the coyote is killed. He doesn't "trespass" either. He has permission from the farmers in the area he runs. He doesn't run where he's not welcome. I can't speak for others, but I know how Vargy hunts.
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on July 20, 2006, 08:42 AM:
Rich, Does the whole staff vote or just the Mods of the forum where you guys were accused of bustin' up the bar. Say only 2 of the 64 staff members at PM votes and those two want your ass canned. Does that mean you are gone by a unanimous vote?
I didn't now Jim Champion, aka RiverRunner got out?
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on July 20, 2006, 08:48 AM:
Your right NASA, I should edit that. I dont know Vargy and never talked to him. He may do it right. But he would be in the minority.
The other one I mentioned doesnt though. I have had several debates with him. He started off claiming to do everything right. But, before it was over, admitted that sometimes his dogs go where hes not wanted and he has shot from the road. Took him a while to fess up, but he did.
Anyway, Vargy may be ok. I believe it if you say its so. But, Ive seen a number of these operations in action and he would be one of the very, very few that is. I guess I should say almost all, instead of all, are slobs, IMO.
I still despise that way of hunting. Even if they do have permission, I would be willing to bet they have spoiled countless folks days with their dogs. Cant help it. Its not like your hunting a section. Turn those damned things loose and your hunting the world. Your gonna step on toes. Alot of em.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on July 20, 2006, 09:22 AM:
"I didn't now Jim Champion, aka RiverRunner got out?"
-----------
Jim is listed as retired P.M. staff, same as me. I don't know why he retired. Jack doesn't like to ban anyone, and would be the last to vote yes on a ban.
Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on July 20, 2006, 09:31 AM:
Rich, Cal', Vic, NASA,
I didn't at all mean to trivialize what had happened by calling this thread humorous and entertaining. Please accept my apologies, I was speaking without knowledge. In fact, that is my regular means of conversation come to think of it.
Just for the record though. I didn't think Jack was funny. In fact, I don't think Jack has ever said anything funny.
In fact, I was trying to explain that I was laughing at my self because I let myself believe that Jack was making a joke although he really wasn't. I thought he was, because I read into his post some nonesense about you three being PETA. Then it occurred to me what the initials stood for, realized I was wrong and laughed at myself.
There!!! How's that for being clear as mud!?!?
Edit: for the clear as mud explanation.
[ July 20, 2006, 09:46 AM: Message edited by: Locohead ]
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on July 20, 2006, 09:41 AM:
quote:
"I didn't now Jim Champion, aka RiverRunner got out?"
I sure would have liked to have read the post from river runner, the one that redfrog(opps randy) deleted, in the election time tread. Did anyone catch that one before it was deleted? '
Dennis
EDIT: Wow, a coup! River must be a alright guy. Most owners would probably have all those guys heading for the door!
[ July 20, 2006, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: Greenside ]
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on July 20, 2006, 10:08 AM:
Loco, If this stuff isn't funny, I don't know what is! My wife often states that I have a sadistic sense of humor though, but to worry that someone on the board in question doesn't like me is far beyond trivial to me. And to see them flex their big internet muscles is down right hysterical! That is the best part, it has been some of the best entertainment I have had in years.
Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on July 20, 2006, 10:12 AM:
For those that haven't put it all together... protecting the masses of know-it-alls and ego-driven moderators is a way of protecting MASSIVE TRAFFIC. Massive traffic ***** banners, banners make money. Long story short- the fact half of the folks posting in this thread are banned from Predator Masters tells you the type of folks they are looking for.
They want the guys that kill two kit coons and a stray cat and title the thread FOXPRO & LIGHTFORCE KICKA$$!!!!
P.S. Jack- if I'm not banned where's my password? Please forward it to Jrbhunter@hotmail.com whenever you find it.
P.P.S. THO- those are the best posts I've ever seen you make. Very impressive.
Posted by bigben (Member # 864) on July 20, 2006, 10:30 AM:
just hope I don't look like a wanna be anywhere. I consider all of the fellas in this single topic to be the best of the best. after reading the threads over on PM and here you can find out who knows there shit.
Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on July 20, 2006, 10:50 AM:
"Hell, many times I can have him figured out in the first three seconds of a handshake, you know, that limp wristed,half a handfull of soggy fingers." Quote by Arizona Chile
LOL I know that feeling. LOL I realllllly hate grabbing a handful of another guy's really soft hands worse. You know, the handshake where you wonder whether the guy even has bones in his hands? LOL Eeeewwwww yuck!
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on July 20, 2006, 10:51 AM:
Ben, I know Im capable of calling coyotes to the gun, but I dont pretend to be in the same class with alot of these guys.
Ive said it before. I just feel fortunate to have the knowlege of these guys collectively to draw from. I dont have the time physically to get the experience and do the trial and error. But, if you will listen, you can learn alot from those who do and apply it, so when I do have time, it can be more productive.
I would hands down rather have a board with that in mind than to have a "your ok, Im ok" money machine, just lookin for warm bodies and thread count.
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on July 20, 2006, 10:53 AM:
Loco, Are you sure you were grabbing his hand? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ July 20, 2006, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: NASA ]
Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on July 20, 2006, 10:56 AM:
Grrrrrrrrrrr.....
LOL Pretty good burn I must admit!!! Grrrrrrrrr ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Posted by browning204 (Member # 821) on July 20, 2006, 12:52 PM:
I have been keeping up with the "healthy debates" thread on PM since it started. And the funny thing is, that the person who started the thread is one of THE WORST people as far as causing arguements, ripping on people, ass kissing and the LOOK at me thing. I have seen him cause problems on more than one site for many people. Notice how he changed his sig line from "ignorance is just another varmint that need killin" to "Family friends and the great outdoors" AWWWWW isn't that cute! as far as the people getting banned, I don't see anything that is a ban-able offense!! I wrote it over there and this is what I said, The mods on the board should be held at the same, if not Higher code of ethics than the members! but obviously it is a double edged sword over there.
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on July 20, 2006, 01:35 PM:
Does anybody besides me find it somewhat ironic that these guys got banned on a "Healthy Debate" thread???
Posted by bigben (Member # 864) on July 20, 2006, 01:41 PM:
I guess maybe I should have said that I still got a lot to learn and I don't mind hearing someone say something negative about something I thought should work. just saves me time in the long run. keep on talkin fellas a will just keep on learnin.
Posted by browning204 (Member # 821) on July 20, 2006, 03:36 PM:
Bigben, I am like you and are still learning about the sport. But I also have a very good teacher to hunt with so I am lucky. It just makes me angry when I ask questions and have an answer like "eastern guys can't hunt" or "I shoot 100 coyotes a month how about you" It just proves to me that some of these guys don't know much about what happens outside their Trailer park. But it doesn't stop them from giving advice and then when it don't work (we all don't live in texas) we get made fun of!! I am just tryin to learn but get tired of the look at me stuff and the double standards. Good luck to you.
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on July 20, 2006, 04:05 PM:
If your refering to the guys here, I havent heard any answers like that. I have heard that when someone comes in spoutin off about something they have no clue about.
Actually, I have seen alot of folks get help here. Unless of course, you bring the attitude with you. Then you will most likely get your ass handed to you and not last long.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on July 20, 2006, 04:13 PM:
quote:
Rich, Does the whole staff vote or just the Mods of the forum where you guys were accused of bustin' up the bar. Say only 2 of the 64 staff members at PM votes and those two want your ass canned. Does that mean you are gone by a unanimous vote?
I didn't now Jim Champion, aka RiverRunner got out?
Lonny, all moderators and administrators are expected to vote. Apparently all do not. It requires a majority of those that do vote to ban or suspend.
Jim Champion left in disgust over the recent changes at PM.
quote:
Wow, a coup! River must be a alright guy. Most owners would probably have all those guys heading for the door!
Dennis what was the coup?
I'm a wannabe.
I wannabe a better caller. I want to associate with others who wannabe. The wannabes that get their britches jerked down are the ones that represent themselves as being "more" than they really are. Life is simple on this board because the ones that have lasted are real, regardless of skill level.
There are some real ones over on PM as well. That GC is rock solid. KeeKee is as good as anyone.
The number is not high and I'm surprised that the majority of moderators would not be willing to do anything in their power to smooth things over and keep heavyweights like Cal and Vic hanging around to keep things real for them as well.They have knowledge and experience that you just can't buy. Iwas told today that the suspensions were not just for the Debate thread but for an accumulation of "offenses" over a months period.
Posted by River Runner (Member # 880) on July 20, 2006, 04:19 PM:
WOW.....my ears been ringing for a week. I wondered where it was all coming from.
You guys got room for another anti-PM'er? I'll try to behave but I'm dying to pour it all out. 
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on July 20, 2006, 04:29 PM:
Howdy River Runner!
Long time, no talk too. How've you been?
And welcome, to the Greatest Calling site on the net.
( Leonard will even let us talk about trapping! )
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on July 20, 2006, 04:58 PM:
Damn glad to see you Jim. I think you'll fit in fine.
Posted by browning204 (Member # 821) on July 20, 2006, 05:08 PM:
Andy L: NO I am not reffering to anyone on this site. I was talkin about some guys on PM. sorry I should have cleared that up!!! RIVER RUNNER: Glad to see you are still around!! I for one would like to know what REALLY happened over there.
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on July 20, 2006, 05:11 PM:
Damned 2D world....
Posted by Alaskan Yoter (Member # 169) on July 20, 2006, 05:15 PM:
For a few exceptions there seems to have been a pattern of what type of folks are getting band on PM, and most end up here.
Seems to be the up front, call it as you see it, honest, non-butt kiss'n type a folks. That are generally perty knowledgable, so much to the point...."If'n ya can't top them, kick them"
You have new powers to be and they are getting thier feet wet at powering I guess.
And in the discussed post its already being heavy handed, and to boot its not the spokes person, spoking, its the advertising fella?
Bottom line, this board is gaining allot of top quality fellas, and I'll continue to sit back, read and learn here...........and collect an occasional call.
Welcome aboard Jim.
Todd
[ July 20, 2006, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: Alaskan Yoter ]
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on July 20, 2006, 05:32 PM:
I've always had(have) alot of respect for River. After all he's just one of us. He mounts animals
Dennis
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on July 20, 2006, 05:48 PM:
quote:
After all he's just one of us. He mounts animals
I just told that joke yesterday.
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on July 20, 2006, 06:11 PM:
Welcome aboard Jim.
You busted your ass at PM for many years and helped a bunch of people get the hide off of a dead critter. I'll buy you a beer.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on July 20, 2006, 06:16 PM:
Or, if beer ain't your style, I'll buy you a nice shot of Beam .
- DAA
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on July 20, 2006, 06:28 PM:
Welcome Jim, you will bring some much needed class to this motley group.
"WOW.....my ears been ringing for a week. I wondered where it was all coming from.
You guys got room for another anti-PM'er? I'll try to behave but I'm dying to pour it all out."
We will all appreciate hearing "the whole story".
[ July 20, 2006, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: Rich Higgins ]
Posted by canine (Member # 687) on July 20, 2006, 07:28 PM:
Hey Jim, good to hear from ya.
I am one that agrees as well that things are goin south over at PM. I have seen many big named ol'timers banned from there. Hell, i remember the first person to ever reply to one of my first posts was Leanord.
Rich H., I consider myself lucky i get to hunt with Brent (KeeKee) all the time. He has helped me become a better hand caller, which i appreciate.
JD
Posted by Plumbrich (Member # 578) on July 20, 2006, 08:04 PM:
If I come over here is that Higgins guy gonna be allowed to call me Plumbitch?
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on July 20, 2006, 08:15 PM:
I'm curious to hear your take, Jim, but I suspect that'll trigger a jihad board war from hell. Better give us the PG-13 version first.
Oh, and welcome to the lighter side.
Posted by River Runner (Member # 880) on July 20, 2006, 08:43 PM:
I'm probably going to bring more traffic to this place with this post then anyone ever imagined. 
Their watching me like hawks right now. Spying on my forum and tattling to one another what I do blah blah.
Here's the skinny.....pull up a chair.
Way back around the last PM Hunt, a member approached me about publishing a Predator Masters magazine. I'm sure you all know who I'm referring to, if not you will before I'm done.
I had a really hard time buying the fact that we could make this fly, but I was more then willing to listen....and listen is what I did for almost two months before I approached my partner who would have to agree also before we went any further.
I was convinced that this could be a good situation for all involved if we could get the support to make it go.
By that I mean the support of the moderators.
Ya see...one thing about PM is we...(RB and I) as owners, always gave the moderators the power to pass or veto absolutely anything with the power of voting.
In other words if they decided they felt it was a bad idea, then we simply can the idea. The same went for banning a member or anything, majority vote was held for everything.
Most of the mods were FOR the magazine but they were completely opposed to the idea of bringing in the individual whom confronted me at first with the idea, as another owner, because he was bringing 50 G's to the table to help launch this thing, AND he already had connections with publishers from In-Fisherman, etc.
Greed like you have never seen in folks you would have never suspected, started to set in. There were accusations, assumptions, name calling labeling, and on top of it all, every mod in the place claimed to own the board. They all assumed RB, myself and the new additon to ownership were asking them to please work for us and make us rich.
Which is kind of funny because we were offering to pour every bit of the income back into them as a wage for their participation with the magazine AND the board. Some of them just insisted that they owned the board and that they should be allocated profits from this thing.
RB and I had pretty much decided that this was not going to work and to just call the whole thing off since ever mod want to kick in a chunk of money and hope like hell that the measly 10 grand that they would accumulate would launch the magazine.
Our worst fear was launching it and not being able to fund it with that kind of money, and that's why we wanted the other investing owner.
And his only stipulation to bringing 50 G's to the table was that he be brought in as an owner to protect his investment....understandable.
It was about that time that ole BS decided to start his own three ring circus and typed up a letter to ALL the moderators to boycott the entire idea, and that he had connections to the magazine industry providing him with the same resources.
But.... I'll be damned if the feller didn't mess up and accidently include an admin in his bulk e-mail. LOL....now things really take a twist.
Clearly a mutiny has been formed between the five administators and the 15 moderators. No one is talking to no one in a civilized maner and every little flake of trust or comradry went right out the door with BS's letter.
Ohhh wait it gets better
About that time, while were trying to retain some order from that, a staff member comes forward and decides that the individual whom the admin wants for a third owner... is guilty of poaching during the last PM hunt.
Holly christmas balls....what next?
With no stance to take, we decided to remove both individuals from staff until until something was proved or more information came forward.
No more information came forward and the mutiny group of moderators voted the accuser back in. 5 admin and 15 mods...we was kinda wooped.
Even though at any minute the admin could have dropped the hammer we held tight and let the power of vote decide on everything. 
Ahhhhhhh look what he did and YOU want him in as a third owner? WHY WHAT IN THE HELL WERE YOU THINKING? Your all crooked, we seen it coming a mile away, he's going to jail, he'll never see the light of day again. Now where were we? A couple of the mods even contacted the federal authorities, and the San Carlos *********** .
Just for the record by the way...to this day, the supposedly crooked poacher has not been charged with a single solotaire thing.
Anyway....The already anti-admin group of mods had decided it was time to hold an election and do some house cleaning.
This is where the power of vote that we gave them kicked us right in the a$$.
Kermit the frog decided that he wanted to be the spokesperson because it was an admin position and he can't stand the existing administrator that holds that position.
Ole BS says he can sell banner ads because it's an admin position and he worked in the oil fields and edits his own videos.
I said you can't pick your positions because they need to be voted on. THAT was the dumbest thing I ever said. They could put who ever they wanted to in those positions because they had admin out numbered better then three to one. Kermit told me directly that thier intentions were to disarm admin and to avoid a similar situation in the future.
I said...not on my watch.
I knew what was coming...
Their going to resubmit PM as non profit so that Ole BS and his pet Kermit can launch and expand their business's without being labeled as pimps.
Kermit wants to start a predator hunter store, North of the border style. Told me that himself. And ole BS plans to exploit himself Randy Anderson style, through PM...and what better place to do it then from the front seat.
I can hear it now. Hiiiiiya I'm BS!...I run PM!
Ya see when RB and I ran the place we weren't registered as non profit, but I can personally guarantee no one made a dime from any of it. In fact every last penny of it went right to Wells Fargo and was used to pay for server costs, upgrades etc. I know what your thinking, there must have been a pile of money somewhere. Well there was. At Wells Fargo and we were going to dump it into the next hunt by purchasing some custom rifles to raffle off.
I told them to go ahead with their elections but to include my position in the running, because I refused to be a part of that circus.
What I got back was, were not voting on your position because your an owner administrator and we need you.
My reply to every phone call after that was, my name is not going to be on that place with the intentions that they have for it.
They had the elections, voted me into my own position and I called an attorney to have myself removed from the business.
You guys who advertise over there....you haven't seen nothing yet. Just wait until you get a taste of what Ole BS has in store for his new Non profit front.
When ever I tried to post in the general membership, why I was leaving it would get deleted. I finally said...fine remove me period.
Someone on here asked about those threads. The one that caused so much conflict, and I have no idea why it did, is right here in it's entirety...
River's last post on my FinsandFur domain.
Whewwwww, I need a drink of water and my fingers are bleeding.
[edited] I removed one comment that I may not have the resources to back.
[ July 25, 2006, 08:15 PM: Message edited by: River Runner ]
Posted by Brad Norman (Member # 234) on July 20, 2006, 08:44 PM:
I'm a little late on the post due to some food sickness...but I swear, last night, between shits, I was watching Blue Collar Comedy Tour and they did a skit on aliens.
The three of them were abducted by aliens. They all had mullets. One of them even had a do-rag (sp). I had to look twice to make sure it wasn't this Glen Guess guy. When I woke up this morning, all I had to do was "Google" his name and I am now positive it was him. The SOB is everywhere on the net!
Damn, Riverrunners came up a minute before mine, I'm sure I won't get any comments.
[ July 20, 2006, 08:50 PM: Message edited by: Brad Norman ]
Posted by Joel Hughes (Member # 384) on July 20, 2006, 08:45 PM:
It is most definitely disappointing to see the bannings, suspensions, etc. Being around the boards for a few years, you learn who to skip on down to and read every word, and who's words to take with a grain of salt.
BTW...DAA, that oughta get some more fun conversation going over there! LOL And on your 2000th post too! I hope to continue to benefit from you knowledge and experience over here.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on July 20, 2006, 08:54 PM:
Jim, listen not to Lance, cdog, cooler heads are boring. Damn the torpedos, Jim, full speed ahead.
Rich Baxter, plumbrich, I think at first I'll just call you friend. Besides you've got a dandy first name.
Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on July 20, 2006, 09:02 PM:
Dave. I have always said I wonted to step in you're tracks. I just did. I pulled my banner ad on PM right behind you.
Maybe one day I will get to do it for real.
Posted by RagnCajn (Member # 879) on July 20, 2006, 09:08 PM:
Well the fur is about to fly over there. RR, I am glad you explained it.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on July 20, 2006, 09:10 PM:
Good Lord, Jim. Brad, Joel and I were typing as you posted. What an incredible soap opera.
So what was the decision concerning the magazine?
What was the name? PM Magazine? MORE BS BY BS?
Posted by yuccabush (Member # 582) on July 20, 2006, 09:13 PM:
Thanks for the explanation. You could tell something was up with how some of those mods would gang up on certain folks.
Guess must be buckin for a position over there.
I'm glad now that I have never spent a dime on a BS product.
Posted by Brad Norman (Member # 234) on July 20, 2006, 09:17 PM:
I finally had enough and posted right behind Dave over there asking them to remove me from their membership. I mentioned something about assholes and can no longer log in.
I have always said you need to beware of Texans...Ronnie excluded.
[ July 20, 2006, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: Brad Norman ]
Posted by River Runner (Member # 880) on July 20, 2006, 09:21 PM:
I don't think we even made it far enough to come up with a name Rich, but I'm sure if they venture into it themselves it'll be something pertaining to the Ringling Bros.
Posted by TheHuntedOne (Member # 623) on July 20, 2006, 09:22 PM:
So who exactly owns PM now?
Would you expand further on the advertisers situation?
Thanks
Al
THO Game Calls
Posted by River Runner (Member # 880) on July 20, 2006, 09:35 PM:
Well, RB is legally the remaining owner. But Kermit insisted to me that, that doesn't mean diddly.
I'm assuming what he meant is he is rendered powerless under the their power of vote.
Advertising...There was major talks of hiking it up to a competitive price range to cover the magazine without the need of outside funds.
What's competitive? And through who's eyes?
I know 24hour campfire charges close to 10 grand for a spot.
Go non profit, and they all look innocent through the price hike.
Posted by brad h (Member # 57) on July 20, 2006, 09:41 PM:
Thanks for clearing that up in detail Jim.
Joel, I've noticed the same thing. There are people over there that for various reasons you could scroll right on by their posts and not miss a beat in the thread.
Brad
Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on July 20, 2006, 09:55 PM:
Man that was fast. Brad's, Dave's and my requests to have our banners pulled on PM have already vanished.
Someone asked the Mod's what was going on a we were vaporized.
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on July 20, 2006, 10:19 PM:
Jim, Thanks for taking the time to explain the situation. Its gotta feel good to get THAT off your chest. Things are really phucked up over there.
Too bad Leonard isn't here.
Anyway, the beer and Beam is on me.
Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on July 20, 2006, 10:21 PM:
Thanks for the post Jim, very insightful and no matter how little it matters- I respect you.
I must say as I read your post I flung my hands into the air and screamed "I TOLD YOU SO" to my monitor. The same thing happened to our local deer hunters association, trappers association and a handful of other groups. Power and money have a way of blurring the focus a group starts out with... you did the right thing here but I hope you see the errors made by "your group" in the past.
I think we should circulate this as best we can- I'd be willing to drop my entire membership a link in email. Sounds like the ole' general store just got a little crooked... better tell the kinfolk.
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on July 20, 2006, 10:49 PM:
Hello, Jim!
Posted by Jack Roberts (Member # 13) on July 20, 2006, 10:57 PM:
varmint hunter,
You asked to be removed and when it was done, you have a complaint?? Wasn't it done fast enough, should we have waited a few days so you could complain about how we didn't do it quick enough???
You can't have it both ways.
Jack
Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on July 20, 2006, 11:26 PM:
Hello there River'. Nice to see you here. I'm very sorry to hear about your loss. It would of broken my heart after pouring so many hundreds and hundreds of hours into PM the way you have.
Thank you for being kind the time or two I dropped by PM after I'd left!
Any chance you might explain the difference between Pro Staff, Owners, and Admin.?
And Welcome!
Posted by Alaskan Yoter (Member # 169) on July 21, 2006, 12:11 AM:
Well Jim, thats sheds a ton of light and explains a few things.
I think your loss will probably be PM's biggest loss since Will, and might be an indication of things to come.
Theres already a post about the recent bands and the TOS that was violated, but it doesn't point out the fact that mods and pro staff aren't held to the same standard.
Todd
Posted by bigben (Member # 864) on July 21, 2006, 04:28 AM:
it sure opens my eyes. I think I will take a break from PM for a while. hell all the ones that knows somethin about predator huntin is here now.
Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on July 21, 2006, 05:34 AM:
Jack. I don't remember a complaint. I think I said " Man that was fast", but I guess anything not praising PM is a complaint nowdays. The only thing that took to long was me doing it.
[ July 21, 2006, 08:23 AM: Message edited by: varmit hunter ]
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on July 21, 2006, 05:43 AM:
Heck Lonny, if YOU are buying the Beam, I NEED to be there!
Ronnie, we'll get there somehow, someday.
I have not been back over to PM to see if I've been whacked or not. Really doesn't matter, so I don't think I'll even look. As Rich keeps pointing out, there ARE some good folks over there. But the organization, the board itself as a whole, I want only to put distance between myself and it.
- DAA
Posted by River Runner (Member # 880) on July 21, 2006, 06:43 AM:
I do miss a lot of the members, and yes Lonny it feels great to get that off my chest. Any administrator could not ask for a better bunch of members...period.
Not all the staff is running a half a bubble out of plumb. I need to point that out. I feel bad for a couple of the good guys.
I know it's just a little helpless place, but you guys that removed your banners, I'll put them on my site for free. I'm not running a business I just want a place to continue on with the friends I have made over there....without going over there. finsandfur.net/forums
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on July 21, 2006, 07:14 AM:
Jim, I didn't even know you had a site with forums. I'll put it in my favorites.
Jack, I don't know what to think about your posts. I know you are an intelligent man but both of your posts on this thread clearly demonstrate exactly the arrogant, negative, combative mind-set of the moderators that are responsible for all of this nonsense.
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on July 21, 2006, 07:31 AM:
Wow. I had no idea. What a mess. Guess maybe because I dont hang out there any...
Welcome aboard Jim!! Dont know you at all, but I can tell I like ya already.
Rich, maybe its just me, but my observations are from this board alone and Jack has always had a arrogance about him. Seems to like to let folks know he has the cash too....
Posted by browning204 (Member # 821) on July 21, 2006, 08:01 AM:
Thank you for explaining that River!
I just knew that a couple of them guys were crooked! Just from hearing them talk about themselves!
I am with Bigben. I am taking a break from there for a while!!!
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on July 21, 2006, 08:05 AM:
I remember talking at length with Randy Black when he and Jim took over the ship. It is just simply amazing that such a mutiny could occur, and I think it is good public information that it finally got out. I know that those two put a tremendous amount of work into that board, and to see someone step in and cause all that and basically take over is wrong. But it reminds me of the battle that we had over here that Wiley was at the head of. He was somewhat prophetic, when refering to guys that wanted something for nothing, to make overnight experts out of themselves, using the hard work and knowledge of others. Now it appears that it carries over into the boards. Rather than putting all the hard work in yourself, just find the board with the biggest membership and take it over. Boot anyone who disagrees and keep those that will keep their nose buried in your crack so that they can't see what is really going on. There are other boards that run under a dictatorship, but at least they had the balls to start their own board, not just steal one.
Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on July 21, 2006, 08:28 AM:
Cal, do you ever miss?. A boiler room shot as usual.
Posted by Yellerdog (Member # 356) on July 21, 2006, 08:32 AM:
WOW!
A pot of coffee, half a can of copenhagen and absolutely no work accomplished yet today.
What a way to start the morning.
Very informative stuff.
I'm not going to bash PM for anything. I've always enjoyed the board. I seldom post, mostly just follow things I find interesting, just like I do here. I do hope things work out there. Especially since I recently signed on as an advertiser. I consider Redfrog a friend and a man of strong integrity. What the mods motives are? Only they truly know and will have to live with their decisions.
I had dealings with RR when setting up my adds and have nothing but good things to say about Jim.
BTW River Runner, I just signed up on your board. I’m member number 15!
This thread ought to get you some new members signing on.
All that said, Huntmasters is an outstanding board.
IT is packed full of the best and most knowledgeable Predator hunters in the land.
That is something NO other board can truthfully say.
Posted by browning204 (Member # 821) on July 21, 2006, 09:17 AM:
Ya I got the skoal going on right now.
oh and I have never, but will never buy a BS video!
Or anything that shows him or his Do-rag sportin buddy either!!!
Posted by bigben (Member # 864) on July 21, 2006, 09:35 AM:
I have bought all of em but I kinda got turned off by the fact that you needed to buy em all to get what most put into one video. brent saxtons and rich higgins are both very informative. unfortunately that is all I have.
Posted by browning204 (Member # 821) on July 21, 2006, 12:23 PM:
I just ordered predator obsession!!
I will let you know how it is!!
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on July 21, 2006, 01:38 PM:
I am a believer in credit where credit due, Varmint hunter. 99% of what I know I learned from someone else. The coyotes may tweak it a little, but it all goes back to the basics of what someone else learned the hard way. So if I ever go "Fishing" for coyotes, your name will be sure to be mentioned.
Posted by Arky (Member # 883) on July 21, 2006, 02:49 PM:
Predator Obsession is a VERY good video......
Joe
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on July 21, 2006, 02:55 PM:
Two things to offer here..
First, Jim, I think we need to take up a collection to buy BS a Jackie Bushman Predator Masters neckerchief. I'm just saying...
Second, do any of them have any real-time experience seeing what all goes into producing a magazine, let alone launching one? About a year ago, I visited with Paul Wait at length on the phone and he pretty much gave me a primer on what it takes to produce a successful magazine in today's electronically oriented world. The distribution network issue alone is a killer. If you guys only knew how many issues of each of the '05 Predator Hunting magazines we moved, and still we didn't go to a subscription-based set up because the higher ups still don't know if it's a cost-effective direction to move. Let's just say we outsold VH, PX, and Predator & Prey, and the totals were better than 3X the membership at PM, per issue. It's going to take more commitment than a noble sense of dedication to the art and sport of calling coyotes, and well beyond being simply "something I always wanted to do." Oh well, if they try to make a go of it, I'll be smilin' when their members start whining because "all they ever publish is the same ol coyote 101 crap" LOL
Please excuse me. I need to go check out Jim's board.
I'm with Higgins - cooler heads my ass.
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on July 21, 2006, 02:58 PM:
Who made Predator Obsession?
Posted by Clint (Member # 346) on July 21, 2006, 03:08 PM:
Scott Ruff made predator odsession. i seen it and it is a good one, has some great bobcat footage.
Posted by RagnCajn (Member # 879) on July 21, 2006, 03:09 PM:
Scott Ruff from Oklahoma made Predator Obsession. I think he did a good job. Has some awesome Cat footage.
Posted by RagnCajn (Member # 879) on July 21, 2006, 03:10 PM:
How can I edit my redundant post. Clint must have hit send as I was typing my reply
Posted by Alaskan Yoter (Member # 169) on July 21, 2006, 03:18 PM:
I noticed that Kee's name was removed from the hand call, and custom call forums. I hope he is not the next political victim.
Cal as accurate as ever!
Posted by yuccabush (Member # 582) on July 21, 2006, 03:28 PM:
Some of the mod's and admin that usally pop off at anything are sure keeping quiet.
[ July 21, 2006, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: yuccabush ]
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on July 21, 2006, 03:53 PM:
KEE-Kee too? I guess I better go check that out.
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on July 21, 2006, 04:04 PM:
This will sure teach Leonard not to leave town ever again. Put Ronnie in charge and look what happens.
Posted by browning204 (Member # 821) on July 21, 2006, 04:26 PM:
I was just over than and read that kee kee might have gotten the ax!!! I am not sure but someone said that. I hope not, I like kee kee. he is one of the few that made sense to me!!!!
Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on July 21, 2006, 04:39 PM:
No AX! I desided it was time for me to move on. And retired from my position at Predator Masters. I left on my own free will.
Brent
Posted by Brad Norman (Member # 234) on July 21, 2006, 04:41 PM:
Welcome RajnCajn. I was trying to reply to you last night before I was so rudely interupted.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on July 21, 2006, 04:44 PM:
Hey Clint, welcome to the board. Is Predator Obsession the video that you were involved with?
Posted by browning204 (Member # 821) on July 21, 2006, 04:53 PM:
I am glad it was your decision kee!!
Posted by Clint (Member # 346) on July 21, 2006, 04:56 PM:
Rich, that is the one i was telling you about on AZSJ. i was in the south TX hunts and one hunt in the bobcats section. thanks for the welcome
if i make it to globe next weekend i will introduce myself.
Clint
Posted by Brad Norman (Member # 234) on July 21, 2006, 05:01 PM:
Welcome RajnCajn. I was trying to reply to you last night before I was so rudely interupted.
Sorry guys. My computer (or myself) went haywire there for a minute.
[ July 21, 2006, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: Brad Norman ]
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on July 22, 2006, 07:35 AM:
Curiosity got the best of me. Was just over at PM reading. My account got whacked alright, all my old posts are now by "Anonymous" . That's what I asked for, so no complaint. It does strike me as odd though. Reading over there just now, somebody mentioned that they have a policy of not deleting accounts. But mine sure appears to have been deleted. And you can search my old posts all day and you wont' find a single one that was ever abusive or confrontational. Before he decided to delete his words so that he could start talking out the other side of his ass, the guy in the do-rag was far more abusive and insulting to people in his "healthy debates" post than I ever even thought about being. Even my very last post, was polite - I thought?
Does seem kind of strange too, that I never heard from any of the mods over there that I thought were my friends. I did sent Crapshoot a note, basically just kind of sticking my nose into their business hoping to find a reason why I shouldn't leave. I took his short reply as "don't let the door hit you in the ass". So made my post asking to have my banner pulled and kill my profile right after reading his reply. I thought Bryon was a friend too, as well as Randy Black and Weasel. After having been one of their original advertisers, and supporting all of their annual hunts pretty well, I'd have kind of thought maybe somebody would have at least shot me an email. But, not one peep from any of them. Actually, I'm now pretty well convinced that they are quite happy to be rid of me. Have to admit, that when I left, I was only disapointed, not angry. But after checking in over there and thinking about it some more this morning, and how the guys I went out of my way to support over there, guys I thought were my friends, are actually just only too happy to be rid of me, well, now I'm pissed.
Oh well, like I said, I asked to be removed and don't want to sound like I'm complaining about that. Actually, now that I've decided to be pissed, I'm glad to be shut of the whole mess. Just think it is strange how they have decided to handle the whole thing, is all.
And with that - I for one am closing the chapter and am not going to post another word about PM, good, bad or indifferent.
- DAA
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on July 22, 2006, 08:41 AM:
Funny you should mention that Dave...
When you posted about possibly "pulling your mail" at PM, my initail thought was at least a couple Staff from over there would e-mail or call you saying "don't be hasty" or "think things over". If nothing else, something like "Thanks for the support over the years and your welcome back any time" I guess, in a way, I don't find it surprising that you didn't hear anything from them. To have all yours posts now listed as any "Anonymous" is really a final kick in the nuts.
I guess PM looks at it as you owed them. Instead of the other way around.
They (staff at PM) always preach how the members make PM what it is. Well when the caliber of guys who left this week, either banned, or just plain fed up with the situation leave it sure doesn't help make PM better.
[ July 22, 2006, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: Lonny ]
Posted by browning204 (Member # 821) on July 22, 2006, 09:11 AM:
the Do-rag dude is by far one of the worst out there! as I said, he does it on all the forums!
Maybe you shoulda changed your sig-line to something fake like "family, friends and the great outdoors" like he did and you would have been safe!
He has a different sig-line on every board!
I have been watching people leave and know of others that possibly might pull their banners as well, to bad because PM is losing a lot of GOOD people, advertisers and hunters.
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on July 22, 2006, 09:22 AM:
Their loss,our gain Dave, I can't think of anyone more knowledgable about the "ins and outs" of rifles than you. Ive followed your writings on things related to rifles for a long time,and every thread, where you have something to opine about,I learn something I didn't know(which is considerable) about.
Thanks for your contributions Dave,and Im sure many over there have the same feelings.
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on July 22, 2006, 09:33 AM:
Randy going to amaze us latter in the day?
Will he sell?
Will he clean house and throw the leeches out?
Will he pull the plug?
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on July 22, 2006, 09:44 AM:
DAA, I'm not at all surprised that you have been banished to "nonentity" status. Redfrog deleted Jim's last post because it was not flattering to the staffers at the heart of all this.
E-mail addresses of the members are not listed in their profiles because those staffers are afraid of other boards soliciting their members. Paranoia born of insecurity.
They have deleted posts other than yours that were critical to PM.
edited because it sounded petty even to me
[ July 22, 2006, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: Rich Higgins ]
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on July 22, 2006, 10:26 AM:
They're losing all there heavyweights over there as far as calling knowledge goes,but hey they are getting what they want, a bunch of wannabe's that agree with everything everybody says. LOL I don't think they really understand what they have done,the discussions will suffer in the future that's for sure.Like Vic said their loss,our gain.
[ July 22, 2006, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on July 22, 2006, 10:59 AM:
Posted by Alaskan Yoter (Member # 169) on July 22, 2006, 12:01 PM:
Before he gets to "amaze" ya he might get voted out and lose his owner/moderator rights.
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on July 22, 2006, 01:20 PM:
It's a sinking ship,the quality of posts are all ready turning back to "Whats the right way to break-in a rifle" or "Summertime tactics for coyotes" the kind of stimulating posts that are like taking a pull on a crack pipe:) But hey, they have enough mods,admins,leg hangers and such, with plenty of fingers to plug up the holes in the dike,and soon enough the water will level out,and maybe the titanic won't go under,who knows?
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on July 22, 2006, 02:27 PM:
First, things first. Leonard's going to need more bandwidth. Probably start seeing banner ads for Viagra and Depends undergarments up there ^!
Second, ... what's yer favorite country song?
Posted by River Runner (Member # 880) on July 22, 2006, 02:47 PM:
Dolly-
Two boards down, thier laughing and drinking and having aaaaa partay.
Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on July 22, 2006, 03:51 PM:
Hell Lance, I have been trying to get on the Viagra and Depends pro staff for four years. Already got a wheel chair sponsor complete with decals.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on July 22, 2006, 04:10 PM:
Viagra? Viagra? I usually break those pills in half. Just gotta get old John up far enough so that I don't pee on my foot.
Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on July 22, 2006, 04:11 PM:
Dave. Think about it for a minute. They are happy as hell that anyone with real knowledge is gone. The thing they fear the most is truthful knowledge. As much as you and some of the others that are gone have, lets the bs flow unchecked.
It is sort of like the old Texas joke. A guy was running for Governor. His campaign manager called him and said you have to get to Jefferson County they are lying about you over there. He responded, hell no. I have to get to Harris County, they are telling the truth about me there.
I know it is old and corny, but it fits.
Posted by Steve Craig (Member # 12) on July 22, 2006, 04:43 PM:
I quit posting over there when they got rid of Leonard and he started Huntmasters.
Wanna-be's will always be just that!
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on July 22, 2006, 04:45 PM:
DAA, at least they followed your request, they only locked my account instead of deleting it as I asked. Oh well, I stand by every post I made.
To answer any questions on why I left (I'm a nobody) it was basicly to help me keep my big mouth shut and my ears open.
I have learned alot from some of you that wound up here from how to make calls to how to tan a hide and am always trying to learn more. If you tire of me, let me know and I'll be gone.
Posted by browning204 (Member # 821) on July 22, 2006, 04:45 PM:
Are you guys kidding? losing all the knowledgeable people? NO WAY! with Mr. Do-rag over there bucking for the Mod. spot, they have all the knowledge that the could ever want! he has done it, seen it, shot it, brought it back to life so he can shoot it again! All with his family waiting in the car on the side of the highway!!!! WITHOUT taking his sunglasses off! Now thats good! hahahahahahahahahaha
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on July 22, 2006, 06:51 PM:
Tom64, Glad you are here and you can hunt with me anytime.
Posted by stevecriner (Member # 892) on July 22, 2006, 07:45 PM:
Though i dont think that every one that is at predator masters or has chosen to stay there is an amatuer or a wanna be". I have chosen to come over to huntmasters with some of the finest predator people i have met and learned from. Even though they dont agree with me always or i dont agree with them ,they have helped me on the way. Im glad to be here with them folks. My signature is genuine! Thanks for having me.If you do?lol
Posted by Brad Norman (Member # 234) on July 22, 2006, 08:44 PM:
Tom 64, Good to see another Okie over here. Let's get together and hunt sometime.
Rich, "Not wanting to pee on my feet". Now that's funny right there, I don't care who you are.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on July 22, 2006, 09:34 PM:
Cal, thank you, I'd love to take you up on that someday.
Brad, I'm in Ada and have a place near McAlester too, I always like to hunt with a new friend.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 23, 2006, 08:00 AM:
Hello, Guys. Finally got on access and noticed all the new registrations and figured I better check the Board.......
Damn!
Well, welcome to the New Huntmasters, everybody. Glad to have you on board.
BTW, wish everything will work out at PM, and I finally figured out who BS is! Duh!
I'm in Grants, NM right now, be home tonight to reread this thread!
Good hunting. LB
Posted by George Ackley (Member # 898) on July 23, 2006, 09:35 AM:
edited by George
As for the e-mail i am getting now from PM MEMBERS i will not be replying.........
I apologies TO PM MEMBERS if some took it as if I was talking about them. But I will not bring names into this for I don’t wont the bashing.
[ July 24, 2006, 05:01 AM: Message edited by: George Ackley ]
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on July 23, 2006, 01:59 PM:
Man… I hate to contribute to the continuation of this mess. But, there are a few things I really need to get said. And just let the chips fall where they may.
First – in a post above, I made mention of four men that I thought were my friends. Byron, Randy, Weasel and Lance. Well, those men ARE my friends. I have no doubt of it. And I owe each of them an apology for not giving them more of a chance, before I made my earlier post. Plain and simple, I was wrong to doubt them and I was wrong to speak about them the way I did.
My small part in all this crap, is pretty simple. I felt, still feel, that Rich Higgins did not deserve to be suspended for his part in the threads that have been brought forth. I know the PM guys disagree. That’s fine, we’ll just have to agree to disagree on that. I left PM, in support of my friend Rich Higgins. Nothing more to it than that. At the time, I had not yet heard any of the stuff River Runner has posted about, and none of that played any part in my decision. I was doing what I feel was the right thing to do, in support of a friend. Nothing more. I personally believe that the suspensions, and the other crap with River Runner are not connected. Two completely separate deals. The timing though, has a lot of people drawing connections between the two situations. I can understand that. But I don’t believe that the connection actually exists.
Okay, I left PM in support of a friend. I’m standing by that decision. Well, now, I feel like I need to do what I feel is the right thing again. And that is, stand up for another friend, Byron South. I think he’s getting some accusations thrown at him, that I personally just do not believe. My belief, is that Bryon is an honest man, trying to do the best he can in a no win situation. I'm positive the Byron felt he was doing the right thing in banning Rich. I believe I did the right thing in supporting Rich. Neither one of us has changed our minds. But, I don’t think less of Byron for what he’s doing. Quite the contrary. He’s sticking to what he thinks is right. Even though I disagree on some of the particulars, I admire him for taking his stand and still consider him very much a good man, and a friend. I sure do not envy him the position he is in, trying to balance so many conflicting interests. He is smack dab in the middle of a giant shit sandwich, that again, I do not believe was of his making.
I can’t, and won’t comment on the specifics of the accusations leveled at Byron. I do not know all the facts about what is going on, don’t want to know. But, I’m here to tell you guys, that when I read some of the stuff being said about him, and I compare that to the person I have talked to for years, I just frankly find it impossible to believe most of the stuff being said. My personal belief, is that eventually, some facts that none of us have access to now, will come to light, and a lot of us will look back at some of what is being said now and feel remorse.
So… from where I sit, this whole situation just looks like a hundred square miles of trampled shit. I feel bad for just about everyone involved. GC made a long post over on PM, and I agree with pretty much everything he said. Except the part about not making any friends with his post -- GC, you might be surprised...
Bottom line for me… I’m sorry if it pisses some of my friends off, but I’m not going to support one friend, and leave another dangling. Not if I can help it. Kind of feels like another no win situation…
The internet really kind of sucks, ya know it?
- DAA
Posted by bandit (Member # 901) on July 23, 2006, 04:08 PM:
Hello forum. I'm brand new here, and am excited to share and learn from you all. Thought this would be an ok place to say hello, since I also just came from pm...........................................................sorry for the hesitation, I always puke a little these days when I say pm. Anyway, I'm better now, and look forward to posting here.
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on July 23, 2006, 05:04 PM:
Welcome Bandit!!
Posted by browning204 (Member # 821) on July 23, 2006, 06:20 PM:
DAA: good for you for standing with your friend!
Bandit: welcome and thats a funny post about puking when you mention the other site!!!
You know whats weird guys? One of the people who I think is some what responsible for causing the whole shit storm over there is staying quite low key these days!! He must really be lookin for a Mod. spot!!! can you GUESS who I am talkin about?
Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on July 23, 2006, 08:42 PM:
Dave, your last post restores a bit of my faith in the human race.
Keep that mind open!
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on July 23, 2006, 09:24 PM:
My friend Dave has the admiration and respect of all who know him. Easy to see why, isn't it?
Posted by River Runner (Member # 880) on July 23, 2006, 10:53 PM:
Dave, I mean absolutely no disrespect to you at all, but I have to say a few things, I hope will strengthen my accusations.
I've never held ill will towards someone for who they choose and friends and I wont start now. I still consider you a friend.
Maybe as one of the owners I was the only one that was able to see a huge conflict with BS being in charge of advertising and sales over there, mixed with, attempting to further his career in what he actually does.
From where I set that spells huge disaster.
I mean let's look at this a little closer. Imagine BS walking into a place he wants to distribute his videos out of, or talk into an endorsement.
The conversation will start off about how he thinks he shines in the industry I'm sure, but then where does it go? Oh yeah....I'm in charge of Advertising and sales over at PM also. Would you be interested in purchasing a banner slot?
The guy is most likely gonna set there and then say, "Look, I've got x amount of dollars to this with. Do you want me to pump BS or PM?"
Maybe if the conversation gets started off by using PM as the big name and then wean them onto BS?....I don't know. If I was still an owner, that'd be a problem for me too, using the place to pimp yourself, right from the heart.
By, right from the heart I mean PM needs the accounts to keep it afloat financially.
It just creates a huge conflict. I've been in business relations too long to think of it any differently.
I honestly think some folks would have had to been in my shoes, in my position to actualy recognize that conflict.
Another thing I'd like to comment on is the fact that he's asking the readers to put things into perspective, over and over and then he goes on to say;
"Do you honestly believe that 1, 2 or 3 people could come in and create an overthrow of PM?"
Well you damn straight they could, they just did.
Let me explain again how that worked, and it all started with his little letter to ALL moderators who from that point on completely opposed the administration.
1,2,or 3 people (as he put it)is all it took to go from moderator to administrator and it creates the take-over because there is only 5 ADMIN POSITIONS TO BEGIN WITH.
As I said before when there is 15 moderators in ca-hoots with this skeem it's awful tough for the 5 admin to attempt to oppose it through voting.
They knew what they was doing, they crossed every T and dotted every I. Leaving nothing hard to place your fingers on.
Now!....if the magazine situation would have never happened this may have all slid through unnoticed. You would have had to been behind the scenes to see the raging greed that oozed from certian individuals, and no matter how hard anyone tried...they were not going to allow the magazine unless they could reap major profits from it, or own it.
THATis what triggered the barking urge to hold an election and fill or replace some admin positions with themselves. Exactly as planned.
And I was suppose to remain as an owner as if to validate or approve of this? Not in this life time. I got to watch his plan be made, and I got to watch it unfold into action.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 23, 2006, 11:26 PM:
I have just read a thread on PM, nine pages. It appears that the management is a little irked with this dialogue.
I want to mention the input by Randy Black in particular. He appears to be a straight shooter. I might call him? In fact, I'd also like to talk to Jim Champion. I wonder if he remembers some of the things that happened about four years ago? I know he was my friend then, although I have not had much contact with him in those ensuing years. BTW, welcome to the New Huntmasters, Jim. Glad to have you on board.
Typical choosing sides, on that thread, same old, same old. Once anain, I'm glad that (at least) I can't be accused of chasing a buck, although I read other unflattering words and opinions describing this fine Board and our members; of which many are also members on PM. (which bothers me not, by the way)
Also, I am very content with decisions made long ago, to not have "official" Moderators, or "Pro Staff" on this Board. I have said many times, and it is my honest opinion; that I am just one of the boys, here on Huntmasters. No huge ego and no Internet Guru.....sorry, folks!
Additionally, we do not have a formal TERMS OF SERVICE on Huntmasters, and there are few rules to break. On the other hand, very few people are intentionally rude. However, being rude won't get you banned here. You may piss me off without consequence...... generally speaking. I really try to be fair, and when I am not, I will admit it, and correct mistakes as need be. That's my policy. There are those that can attest to it.
I also note that MM has developed selective memory in omitting my involvement with PM when he described the history of that site. Wow, and I worked very hard to get him invited to the first Globe hunt, way before he was a moderator.
One other "member" in particular, got in a shot in my direction. I'm not going to respond except to say that if I do call Randy, I will (for sure) give him my brief version of events.
Well, I've been out of town for three and a half days and you guys didn't burn the house down; guess we don't need moderators, do we? I assume that somebody name of George Ackley registered only so that he might post something uncomplimentary, and then deleted it. Anybody see it? Anything I can help with? Questions, etc.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Doc (Member # 902) on July 24, 2006, 02:46 AM:
Very well said LB. This has unfolded a lot of issues @ PM. Jim (RR) has open my eyes on PM This has been some good reading.
Posted by George Ackley (Member # 898) on July 24, 2006, 05:31 AM:
quote:
I assume that somebody name of George Ackley registered only so that he might post something uncomplimentary, and then deleted it. Anybody see it?
I hope my e-mail help straiten it out
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on July 24, 2006, 05:58 AM:
Leonard,
I think George is actually an ok sort of feller. He ain't all that good with words, but he knows how to hunt and shoot.
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on July 24, 2006, 09:23 AM:
Fuel for debate:
Maybe it’s just me, but I would think any person with connections to business and advertisers in the industry would be a good thing rather than some no-name individual making calls and beating on doors to solicit hopeful advertisers. I get a lot of requests for donations and am more prone to oblige to someone I know or have heard of. I would suppose that the conflict of interest statement would also preclude notables like Gerald Stewart, Major Boddicker, Dan Thompson, Tal Lockwood, Paul Wait, John Anderson, Ralph Lermayer and others form passing inspection as well.
If Jay Nistetter made a phonecall to Remington asking them to spend advertising money, would they be more receptive to listening to just another person wanting money or a person they might possibly recognize? Dealing with "knowns" is a better gamble than dealing with "unknowns".
Welcome back Leonard.
Posted by ACC (Member # 903) on July 24, 2006, 09:25 AM:
I have a question that has been floating around in my head for a while about this whole mess.
What places you up in the upper circle of coyote hunters with Cal, Vic, and Rich? Is it number of prime yotes killed, seen, called. Time or number of posts on a particular internet forum. Is it being a member of shade tree in the past? Is it financially linked. Just what makes a guy as good as these fellas think they are.
I had a chance to look up on the internet and try to find some info on these guys. I entered their names into google and hit enter and the results were..... nothing. I thought I would finds boatloads of information telling me about all their hunting experience and so forth. Nothing, I found so far. There was no coyote god, no internet link to their all so famous website, no letters after their names, no former president of the United States, no heroes status, nothing.
So again I ask what makes this guys such idols in the group.
I have been back and forth on this site and PM and see a lot of mud slinging and name calling from guys that claim they are friends and above the rank of amatuer but seem to lack professionalism. There has been some comments here about jockstraps and it seems to me that yes the jockstraps are off and the guys that seem to know it all have their hands in each others pants stroking each other, and telling each other how good they are.
Someone just tell me how I get there please.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 24, 2006, 09:27 AM:
Yes, thanks Rich.
He sent me a couple emails and I have already responded to him. I had the wrong impression, and I apoligize(d) to him for assuming that it was some type of flame against HM.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 24, 2006, 09:35 AM:
Welcome to the New Huntmasters, ACC. Glad to have you on board.
Good hunting. LB
PS, in answer to your question, confering the status of "expert" is a complicated process, but you have made the first step toward recognition. Congratulations. But, keep your hands out of my pants, okay?
Posted by pup (Member # 90) on July 24, 2006, 09:54 AM:
WOW,
Who moved the campfires to the locker-rooms?
It is impossible to compare both boards with the same yard stick.
Leonard runs this board period. He owns it and as long as HIS feelers are not hurt , he lets a thread run. IMHO, this is a place where you can argue and cuss it out. Thanks for that.
I was not welcomed with open arms here, but, was sideswiped by Wiley E. I am not for sure if I even fit in now, but TOUGH cookie, I say my piece and let it be. If ya'll don't like'em refute'em.
PM is not, PM caters to those new to the sport and kids, and strive for a family style atmosphere. It is a different campfire. PM banned me a while back. IT WAS MY FAULT, as I was carrying somebody else's cross. PM warned me that I was crossing the line, and I failed to heed the warning thinking I was in the right, and maybe I was, but PM was NOT the place to carry on that particular conversation. Quite frankly that particluar conversation belonged in the alley, face to face. But, sometimes blind people bump into things from time to time. PM has a TOS and those that post there agree to abide by that. They run a tighter ship, and if ya'll don't like it you have done the right thing and left. IF ya'll had let this lay, then nobody could of faulted you.
Both boards have their place, and are needed. Balance is a good thing.
Vic commented on how he can read people through this medium. Now that is true BULLSH*T!! This is the most piss poor excuse for communication created. IT lacks personality, tone and inflection.
Someone jumped a recreational caller for calling a spot , being "worked" by an "ADC" fella. Lots of information not being told for that situation. Again poor medium for that conversation. I am a recreational caller, and I can do "ADC" "WORK". And for the record, just because monetary gain is not in the picture, it can still be work. The consideration of a place to hunt for the removal of "problem" animals classifies it as "WORK", as per the hiring agency for Wildlife Dept. here in OK. I took my hat in my hand and approached PM to return. Remember after Pride comes the fall, and yes sometimes it lasts for the season.
Now for my beef,
I am really amazed at the bashing of a good friend by a good friend, on a public forum. Somebody pick up a Freakin phone, and privately work it out.
Byron South has worked his arse off to get where he is at. I have personally watched Byron stop a business deal to talk to a young interested caller. I know that he has spent countless hours talking to "Wannabes", that has not done anything but take his valuable time. Bryon spends the time with compassion , knowing it is part of the whole deal. I am talking about time spent that could of been spent feeding his family. Trust me if Byron wanted to promote himself, he would of done a better job than he has.
IMHO, Byron does not care to promote himself, but rather his PRODUCT. Who wouldn't? You drag a camera to every stand and you spend hours and money editing it, wouldn't you expect a return for your effort?
In my relationship with Byron, I misread an action of his at first. Not Byron's fault, but my own.
Remember a difference in opinion is just that, a difference in opinion. We all got them and they all stink.
I know better than to say "let's all get along", or "if ya don't I'm leaving", as it wouldn't change anything.
I do know that I am disappointed in the actions, of what I considered grown adults.
What is amazing is that most of us really get along well in person, unless I am mistaken or somebody is being a hypocrite.
later pup
Posted by TheHuntedOne (Member # 623) on July 24, 2006, 10:08 AM:
Well, a lot happened over the weekend, and like always, I couldn't step around it, I had to go and step right into it.
I need, really need, to apologize to Jack Roberts for responding to his post the way I did. And to the members of both Predator Masters and Hunt Masters for what I said. It was not constructive and all it did was serve to show my ass. Again.
I also want to apologize to Tony Tebbe and Scott Dean, for the remarks about the pro staff stuff.
Both of these borads are full of folks with tons of knowledge and experiance. I hope that I will continue to be able to learn from all of them.
I cut my teath hunting predators with a lot of the information I learned on PM. I honed some of my skills with the information I have learned here on HM.
I would not be a call maker today if it were not for Rich Cronk and some of the others who posted so freely on PM in the past. So, I appologize to the folks on PM, and to the folks here on HM for stirring the pot.
Al Woodard
THO Game Calls
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 24, 2006, 10:12 AM:
pup, you are welcome here, anytime. Scott doesn't scare anybody, he's a Teddy Bear in person.
Actually your last sentence contains the core issue, and that's as far as I'm going with it.
Good hunting. LB
edit: quote:
What is amazing is that most of us really get along well in person, unless I am mistaken or somebody is being a hypocrite.
[ July 24, 2006, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on July 24, 2006, 11:24 AM:
ACC,
The easiest way for you to answer your own question about being an expert, is for you to simply hunt with them.
That will remove any and all doubt from your mind.
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on July 24, 2006, 11:40 AM:
quote:
Fuel for debate:
Maybe it’s just me, but I would think any person with connections to business and advertisers in the industry would be a good thing rather than some no-name individual making calls and beating on doors to solicit hopeful advertisers
Jay, Hopefully everyone will take this as constructive criticism?
It might matter on who's doors he'll be knocking?
When the connections and the alliances are in direct competition with the people you're trying to sell, I suspect it might get a little tougher.
I wonder what Minaska, JS, Burnham and some of the other electronic people think when they visit a site and see that half the moderators there are also moderators on the site trying to sell you advertising? Same might go for some call makers facing the same issues such a joint ventures etc.
O well, time will tell? Like I said, Hopefully just constructive cricticism. All business need to be very aware of "Appearence"
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on July 24, 2006, 12:00 PM:
Should those in question have been banned?
Can't say. I don't know the whole story and wasn't privy to private emails or phone calls if any and to be quite frank, skimmed most of the posts anyway.
I will say that when I was involved in Posse Country, I was one of 2 voting NOT to ban Bill Martz. Bill stayed but we did manage to ban his daughter. LOL
[ July 24, 2006, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: Jay Nistetter ]
Posted by ACC (Member # 903) on July 24, 2006, 01:05 PM:
River Runner,
A few questions for you here since I can't get these figured out as well.
When you were at PM and saw the Hostile Mutany coming on, why did just fire these guys or just veto their vote. Is your position at PM as owner elected? Is this correct?
How are these guys acting greedy when it was Lynn and yourself want the magazine deal done with Lynn as the owner.
If Randy Black is half owner, is he one of the greedy ones as well?
Since these guys are already advertisers, they already have access to post/advertise on every forum on the board so why do they need control of the board?
How did Byron South and Redfrog manipulate all the rest of the 20 or so moderators, and why did you get no support for you magazine proposal?
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on July 24, 2006, 01:23 PM:
Jay, some interesting points, to be sure. But my read is that the issues surround the fact that so much energy is spent in promoting certain product lines over others and those outside the inner sanctum view that as either favoritism or specific individuals serving their own self interests in hopes of garnering a "Pro Staff" spot.
At the same time, maybe it would be more palatable if the person responsible for selling advertising wasn't so deeply vested in the board and oftentimes recognized and affiliated with a specific brand of calling product. That situation really makes it look like the brands we don't see are not seen for reasons other than the fact that they choose not to advertise as much. Maybe they aren't asked to.
In a way, this situation reminds me of a nameless editor that was offering himself up to all these different manufacturers in the name of advertising for his magazine. He'd play his pitch like each was the most important account for his career in an attempt to seduce them into a contract. This month, he'd do a feature article on their product, extolling its virtues like it as the best thing since women.
Then, a couple months later, in the next issue or a couple issues down the line (when he mistakenly presumed others would have forgotten his prior statements), he'd be courting another vendor with the same "this is the best thing going" article and telling the readers how this was the only product of this type that he has ever used (when the readers knew full well he was lying). Long story less long - it brought his credibility into question and ultimately, compromised the credibility of his magazine because readers and vendors, alike, saw these actions as conflicts of interest.
I can see the benefits of having a recognizable name doing your marketing, but maybe it would have been better if it was someone less directly involved in offering such a significant account thru that site. I feel bad that he is under personal attack here when, in truth, the issue is more the situation than the man.
But, one thing is for sure. Several separate issues have risen here telling us that the problem is more complex than just one or two people that do not get along.
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on July 24, 2006, 01:51 PM:
There are actually two seperate issues here and since one brought the other to light they are being lumped together. The banning was seperate of all the issues with PM ownership and internal doings. As for the banning issue, my personal feeling is that it was unneccessary, and that will always be my reaction towards it. I have had no major open beef with anyone involved in the vote but have had a few minor disagreements on one topic or another, and I didn't know or care that it had affected their feelings toward me that much. If so, and they seen a chance to pull a little weight to get "even" then so be it. Since the banning, many more issues have been brought to light with some of the guys involved, and these issues for the most part had nothing to do with me, but some did involve mistreatment of guys that I like and respect, including Varmint Hunter and River Runner to name a couple. So my opinion of some of the people involved has dropped considerably, but wether or not I personally like them will have little to do with their overall successes or failures in life.
ACC, I'm not sure where all the terminolgy comes from. I don't consider myself as one of the "elite" and have spent enough time in Rich and Vics jockstraps to figure out that they really don't promote themselves that way either. They are just good guys that are also capable coyote callers. There are all kinds of knowledgeable guys around here, some on guns, some on night hunting, some on rockets, hell, pick a subject. But nobody here promotes themselves as experts or expert teachers. I have got to spend alot of time with guys that I do consider the "elite" and I am just plain lucky in that matter. Most of the guys I put in that group have never made a post on any of the boards involved, except for Scott Huber who used to post some, but rarely does anymore, and Les Johnson who posts occasionally. The others have remained anonymous to the internet world and probably always will. I'm just fortunate to have got to spend some time with them and learn a little, and occasionally when someone has a question, I remember the answer from something someone else taught me, and can answer it correctly. I have also put a little of that knowledge to use and do occasionally kill a coyote. Hope that clears a little water for you. Don't lump me with the experts, I'm just the guy that told them where to fly the black helicopter. That may become my new sig line!
Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on July 24, 2006, 01:53 PM:
Hey, does anyone here have a really great jackrabbit recipe?!?!
Posted by ACC (Member # 903) on July 24, 2006, 02:28 PM:
Cal Taylor,
The post are flying around that PM has lost all its talented members so I am wondering how a person gets that rep?
Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on July 24, 2006, 02:37 PM:
Danny. Jackrabbits are snap. Get a green 2' X 4" board Oak is best. Cut it the same length as the Jack. Add plenty of potatoes, celery.garlic,carrots and of course peppers. Place ingredients in pressure cooker for 82 hours and 15 minutes. Remove lid a rabidly pull out Jack and throw it to the Dogs. Then dig in. Bone appetite.
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on July 24, 2006, 02:50 PM:
I guess I'm not sure ACC. I can't post there, so it must not be self inflicted.
How do I Google you?
Maybe it's because sometimes I call them in really close?
[ July 24, 2006, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: Cal Taylor ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 24, 2006, 03:04 PM:
ACC, you know that Cal has just disavowed the title of "expert" and I remind you that he was not the one using that verbage, in the first place.
I could be completely wrong, but I'm beginning to wonder about your motivation. I know of know one that has recently registered on PM to demand answers that was not there, before.
On the other hand, you seem to have shown up with an agenda. That's my take on what I see and read.
Now, I want you to know that you are welcome to post here. I will not ban, delete or edit anything you say or have on your mind, but I think it is obvious that you are a little hostile and sympathetic toward the PM point of view.
Also, I want you to understand that I will not lock the thread, or ask for a poll on whether it should be locked....all the while reminding everybody that I have the power to do it without concensus, as did MM. Do you understand that little distinction, between here and there?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by ACC (Member # 903) on July 24, 2006, 03:08 PM:
Yes I understand the distinction between here and there. I do have an agenda. To find out the answers that have been on my mind for a while, and the people with the answers are here not there.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 24, 2006, 03:38 PM:
I have just received an email from Michael McCasland.
This is a public apology and a retraction of anything negative I have said about him. I actually, always liked him, and remember ribbing him at the Tom Mix Hunt about how similiar our Al Lux calls were, but mine was autographed! He alone made breakfast for everybody. And his partner, Bill Rice is a virtual expert, good guy and the luckiest man to hold a raffle ticket, that I have ever seen!
Michael, I won't edit my remarks, but I retract them in the interest of fairness and I'm sorry that I offended you. I would enjoy hunting with you. If (ever) I should be down your way, I have my own ladder.
Sincerely, LB
Posted by Michael J. (Member # 905) on July 24, 2006, 03:58 PM:
Yes, I've been looking in on all this as has about everyone else it seems. Believe it or not I like most everyone here on this board. I know the feeling isn't mutual, it doesn't have to be. We all have our point of view.
Thank You Leonard, I appreciate it. No editing necessary, I know how it can be.
Edit: by the way I was trying to show that the membership really was making the decision to keep the thread open or close it. The topic had pretty much run it's course, it was time for us to move on. But I fully understand the need to keep going here, please don't read into this that I am hinting that you guys should stop the discussion, I really dropped in to thank Leonard and that was about all.
[ July 24, 2006, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: Michael J. ]
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on July 24, 2006, 04:02 PM:
quote:
The post are flying around that PM has lost all its talented members so I am wondering how a person gets that rep?
There are several ways: Self-promotion, corporate promotion, virtual fabrication, and the old fashioned way. Earn it.
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on July 24, 2006, 04:06 PM:
Hi, McC. Does this mean you're going to start getting out more often?
Posted by Michael J. (Member # 905) on July 24, 2006, 04:09 PM:
You know that I rarely travel from board to board and this isn't the first time I've posted over here. It looks like it though, I forgot my password and re registered, I know it's bad to do that, I shouldn't have, but hey I just wanted totalk a little.
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on July 24, 2006, 04:14 PM:
It's still good to see you, wherever you show up.
Posted by Bill (Member # 49) on July 24, 2006, 04:52 PM:
Leonard thank you for the kind words, I will take exception to any reference to expert. However…. Coincidence being what it is, the big game hunters have been anxiously awaiting the results of the Arizona Big Game drawing and I accessed them moments ago. I was lucky enough to draw my first choices for deer and ANTELOPE!!! After nearly 30 years of reapplying and 12 bonus points I finally got another antelope tag. I’m truly a happy man.
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on July 24, 2006, 05:25 PM:
Bill,
You lucky dog!
I got another Mule deer and Javelina tag. Missed again on the Antelope. Tried for Elk and Big horn sheep for the first time, no surprise to not get drawn for them.
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on July 24, 2006, 05:28 PM:
the one thing that separates the pros from the rest of us is that they have and encourage stalkers.
i was a member here for nearly a year before making my first post. i like to think i know a thing or two about predator hunting. then you hang around here for a little bit and realize there's a lot left to learn. even the pro's are thrown curve balls now and then. they learn to adapt and overcome to get the results. i go and sit in the truck, sulk for a bit and then blame it on my gun!
[ July 24, 2006, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: smithers ]
Posted by George Ackley (Member # 898) on July 24, 2006, 05:43 PM:
quote:
Hey, does anyone here have a really great jackrabbit recipe?!?!
YEP 22MAG cci stinger to the Cranium
Posted by ACC (Member # 903) on July 24, 2006, 05:53 PM:
Cal Taylor,
That is a good photo. I would like to know the story behind that one.
Posted by Bill (Member # 49) on July 24, 2006, 06:16 PM:
Tim, it’s just luck and perseverance. Most people never draw (Sheep tags), some do after many attempts and occasionally, like my neighbor across the street draws a Desert Bighorn Sheep tag on her first attempt and she got a very nice sheep too.
Good luck on your hunts.
Posted by George Ackley (Member # 898) on July 24, 2006, 06:28 PM:
See you guys in the fall I do hope this works it self out.
Leonard you have a nice sight going here and hope to drop in when the fishing season get over with but for know it time to get back chasing the wet predator so i wish you all well and see you in the fall
Big George AKA REM223PA
Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on July 24, 2006, 07:33 PM:
That must've been one hellacious crankbait!
Posted by PAyotehunter (Member # 764) on July 24, 2006, 08:20 PM:
WOW, I can't believe I read all that in one sitting.
ACC,
Move to an area that has a good population of coyotes, grab a call,gun,camera and/or camcorder and shoot a bunch of dogs. Write about it on message boards, post pic's and videos, maybe even write a book, and BAM your in.
Its funny you asked that because I always wondered what makes someone an "expert" or a "pro" myself. I'm just the opposite, I've been chasing coyotes for about 14 years and to talk to me you would think I just started hunting them and I like it that way.
Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on July 24, 2006, 08:24 PM:
Seems like I recall someone by the name of MJM around here at time or two. Hello MJM!!!
Leonard, I know that at one time or another Bill won about a jillion prizes at some raffle that you attended. You should of seen him at Bruce's get-up!!! HOLY MOLY that guy is lucky. I got a prize or two also, but only because after Bill had more prizes than he could safely carry out to his truck in one trip, he began giving away prizes to everyone at his table and we all went home with something!!!. I think he bought 20 extra tickets and then got called 30 times. LOL No joke. Hello Bill!!!
Posted by Bill (Member # 49) on July 24, 2006, 09:07 PM:
Hi Loco,
How you been? That was a fun event, wasn't it. I had a good time. Bruce did well for a first event. To bad there weren't others. It was certainly nice meeting you there.
Posted by ACC (Member # 903) on July 24, 2006, 11:10 PM:
PAyotehunter,
Well, I too have been chasing yotes for a while. I started thinking about it the other day when this battle started.
For me, It has been 18 years in August. I do as I want in the coyote hunting world and don't bug to many people while doing it but this last week has frusterated me beyond belief.
I take new guys/kids out as well and in there mind, they think I am the expert when they see the yote coming to the call. I have ranchers call me up to help take coyotes out of the population and I guess they think I am some sort of expert as well.
I am just getting tired of everyone gathering around a few guys and telling everyone else that these guys are the cats ass and everyone else is a amateur.
So that is why I ask, how do you get there?
[ July 24, 2006, 11:11 PM: Message edited by: ACC ]
Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on July 25, 2006, 12:02 AM:
Yea, I was at that table too. It seemed that every other name pulled out of the hat was Bills. LOL That was a great event. I had a ball. Have some fun on your hunts Bill, good to see you out.
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on July 25, 2006, 06:38 AM:
ACC, I work for a county predator control program every spring as a denner, and so I usually keep a pup or two around every summer for recording some sounds and things like that. Several of FoxPros really good pup sounds came from here. If you watch any of Byron Souths last videos or Les Johnsons TV show(Predator Quest) you will hear my pup distress sound on about every stand. Anyway, this year I got a couple really young (eyes closed) pups out of a den, and raised them. One didn't make it, but this one is doing good. It's the first semi gentle one I have had. I have even taught it to play fetch. That may be a first.
Posted by Michael J. (Member # 905) on July 25, 2006, 09:20 AM:
I was wondering how those pups were doing. I'm interested to see how this one developes. I guess it makes sence that a coyote would fetch like a domestic dog would, but its probably only a mater of time before he/she becomes independent enough to want to deal with its catch alone. But then again I have always wondered. If the adults don't run the young off, would they keep a closer family bond and act more as a pack hunter rather than a lone hunter living with others. The behavior is most likely hard wired into their genes, but a small part of it could be environmental I suppose.
What happened to the other one? Did it die of some natural cause or was it overly agressive?
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on July 25, 2006, 09:59 AM:
Very interesting Cal,and way cool. At what point does it all end? Is there an age, where it will begin to stay away for periods of time,and then just wander off. Do you encourage it to do so,or do you treat it just like any other domestic dog?
Ive seen coons,javelinas,deer, but never a coyote that has been kept since newborn,but never a coyote. Just how long will that coyote hang around,and what is your past experience with them?
Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on July 25, 2006, 10:49 AM:
How long will it hang around????
Man, and I thought I was gonna be heartless by asking if he was gonna skin it out for a rug or tube it out......
Real neat Cal. Keep us posted on its' development.
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on July 25, 2006, 11:55 AM:
The other pup died shortly after being vaccinated for parvo and distemper, so I assume it reacted to the shot. I keep this one kenneled unless we are playing with it, but then it runs loose and stays pretty close to the house. The other pups I have had were caught much later and were always wild and mean, but I have had an escapee or two and they stayed around here pretty close for a while. One disappeared finally and one I shot. This one has no clue of anything but us. So I guess we will keep it unless it gets too mean or something. If it gets mean I will send her up to O'Gorman for his urine pens or something. Temperment seems to be good so far. If I keep it I will probably have it spayed later if I can find a vet to work on it, and that may help with temperment also.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 25, 2006, 12:02 PM:
What I heard, some time ago, is that they eventually start staying out all night and/or killing chickens. That eventually, the wildness takes over and they leave, never to return. If penned, that's probably a different story, but if you treat them like a dog, they get the urge to wander, sooner or later.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on July 25, 2006, 12:09 PM:
Cal Taylor,
I hope that the coyote will work out for you. It would make a heck of a decoy if things go well. You may have to dye her hunter orange though.
Posted by PAyotehunter (Member # 764) on July 25, 2006, 12:25 PM:
Very neat. I have thought about and talked to other about doing that(getting one before its eyes opened) but I believe there is some sorta law against it here.
Do you have any other pets??
If so how do they get along?
Thanks.
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on July 25, 2006, 01:00 PM:
quote:
the wildness takes over and they leave, never to return. If you treat them like a dog, they get the urge to wander, sooner or later.
That wasn't the case with the 6 coyotes I raised. I kept them for over 5 years. They were obedience trained and leash broken. None were spayed or neutered. All were fed domestic dog food and dietary supplements. All saw the vet every 6 months. They were bathed and brushed every 2 weeks, except in the winter. They came in the house for a few hours every day, and learned to stay off the couch! They would gang around the (ex) wife and beg for scraps when she was making dinner. And when I took them "hunting" they would chase down and kill rabbits. But I never let them eat them. I always carried strips of cooked beef heart to give them as a reward for giving up the rabbit to me.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on July 25, 2006, 01:11 PM:
So NASA what happened to them? I had a friend that found a pup years ago, it was pretty good natured but since we have laws against keeping them and a game warden collected this one.
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on July 25, 2006, 01:35 PM:
After 5 years, they were just too time consuming. They demanded constant attention to maintain that level of temperment. It became too much work for me alone. One ended up in the Tulsa Zoo in the "petting pen". One was sold to an exotic animal rental agency, and one went to a rich Texan who wanted it for a pet. Another went to a Hollywood wildlife compound and later starred in 2 Disney movies.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on July 25, 2006, 02:37 PM:
Kansas has laws against possession of one, too, but I had a good friend that had two timber wolf hybrids. His wolves were pretty well mannered, but he always warned that you should regard them more like a cat than a dog because their wild genes make them more temperamental and independent. Is it the same with coyotes? I also kind of always wondered if the coyotes NASA had required that they maintain a certain degree of pack atmosphere, with Tom Being the alpha dog? That's how I run my kids, and have just wondered if it worked or was necessary with pet coyotes. It always worked well in raising my kids, until the law showed up and said they'd gotten complaints from the neighbor about me peeing on their privacy fence three of four times a day.
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on July 25, 2006, 03:07 PM:
“you should regard them more like a cat than a dog.”
In a way, yes. More accurately, you should never regard them as a “dog”.
“maintain a certain degree of pack atmosphere, with Tom Being the alpha dog.”
Absolutely, that is mandatory, otherwise you cannot maintain their respect.
“necessary with pet coyotes.”
It is foolish and dangerous to ever regard them as “pets”.
Posted by PAyotehunter (Member # 764) on July 25, 2006, 03:34 PM:
I have three dogs, an english lab. a german shorthair pointer and a jack russel. All three of my dogs see me as the alpha. It is very important for any dog owner to be the alpha and I imagine the same would apply to a "pet" coyote.
Posted by Michael J. (Member # 905) on July 25, 2006, 07:33 PM:
Nasa - I've watched quite a few coyotes and when they met or were unsure they would go into a submissive stance when confronted with a dominant animal. As the dominant menber of the family unit or pack did they show this type of behavior around you?
Posted by Bill (Member # 49) on July 25, 2006, 11:52 PM:
Bryan J, yes it was a great event. I wish I had taken some pictures, it was a rare opportunity to document some of the greats and future greats, in our sport. Good luck to you I the upcoming season.
Bill
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 26, 2006, 09:01 AM:
I'm still thinking that shark looks a bit like a baby Great White?
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on July 26, 2006, 01:23 PM:
Michael J, they certainly did. There were a number of different submissive postures they’d take. One is tucking the tail. Another was the typical U-posture. Some would come right in and lie on my feet. When I singled out the first one to “groom”, it would roll on its back and pee.
They all demanded my attention and would vie for it. Each of the six got 5-10 minutes of individual attention 2-3 times a day, 7 days a week. While I attended one, the others would crowd around and nip and tug at me, to get me to pay attention to them. They would whine and "sing" to me. I remember there were about 4 different greeting vocalizations they used.
They were bathed and brushed every 2 weeks, except in the winter. They got individual leash walks every 3 days around people, dogs and traffic. The weekends belonged to them. Rabbit hunting, trips to the mountains, and the beach. They really liked the beach. Taking them to Pismo to play in the sand dunes was a blast. In every one of these different environments, each would always be given a short obedience exercise. Just as reinforcement. Even feeding time was orderly and not allowed to get chaotic. It was very hard work, but worth every minute of it.
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on July 26, 2006, 04:32 PM:
That is just too cool NASA. I would love to do something like that. Not with a half dozen maybe, but a couple. I love to watch and listen to coyotes anyway. You could really pick up on alot of small things with that kind of access.
That would beat beagles all to hell for rabbit hunting.
Posted by RagnCajn (Member # 879) on July 26, 2006, 07:48 PM:
That is really neat Nasa. When I was a kid, my dad built a set of kennels and told my brother and I that if we could catch it with our hands we could keep it. Every spring we would catch something, coon, squirrel, possums and such. We never caught a coyote, in fact never saw a young one. We had a screech owl that lived in the house and would go to his cage to roost every night. My dad came home one night from a fishing trip with a bobcat cub. We raised it in the house and allthough never really tamed it, we did have it house broke. He used a litter box just like a house cat. at about 2 years old he was let out to use the bathroom and walked off never to be seen again. We had a buck deer that lasted 8 or so years and a doe. We turned the yearlings out every summer and they would stick around the pasture for a couple days then they would leave and not return.
Posted by Nitehunter (Member # 915) on August 03, 2006, 07:54 PM:
quote:
I'm still thinking that shark looks a bit like a baby Great White?
I thought the same thing at first, but look at the teeth, definately a Mako... a white would have more triangular teeth...
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 03, 2006, 08:44 PM:
Welcome to the New Huntmasters, Nitehunter. Glad to have you on board.
I went back and looked again. You are very correct, the teeth.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Purple220 (Member # 173) on August 17, 2006, 11:47 PM:
I've been away for awhile on HM. Stopped by to see what was happening. Now I see where a bunch of the PM men went. I was wondering what was going on with them over at the so called big house of hunting. For some goofy reason, they didn't like my slogan Texas Verminator-Verminator Predator Calls. I prostaff for Rick. Got a notice yesterday from one of the mods. Been running that slogan for well over a year. Too many other call makers were complaining I guess. I've been noticing the cold shoulder attitude from a few there also.
Leonard, I alwys liked the way run things here. I'm sure I'll be posting more as my hunting season starts with new toys to show off and test.
Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on August 18, 2006, 05:33 AM:
Bob, Great to see you back. When do you think you will finish you're world tour on that new Gator?. Last time I saw it was still green. Surprised you haven't sent it to Mc Millen for a purple camo treatment yet.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on August 18, 2006, 06:47 AM:
Hi Bob, welcome back. Did the Mod demand that you buy a banner in order to post a slogan? How can this be? BS said that it isn't about the money.
You won't find any cold shoulders here.
You might watch out for cold hands though... from this ACC guy.
Posted by Purple220 (Member # 173) on August 18, 2006, 08:25 AM:
VH, I think I'll leave the Rhino green. I might arouse a few ranchers on what I'm doing on their place with a wild paint job. Keep them happy with lots of kill piles.
Rich, it came down to change or pay. With some of the goofy stuff going on, I'm leaving. The only Mod that will talk to me is Steve Malloy.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on August 18, 2006, 02:28 PM:
Hey Bob, glad to see you're still kicking. (I assume there's only one guy with a purple 220 swift)
Anyway have you heard anything from Ray? He sent me his new e-mail but I lost it, if you talk to him tell him to send an e-mail or call me.
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