This is topic Surrender Monkeys/vote in poll in forum Member forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 22, 2007, 08:41 AM:
Democrat Leadership want to force a pullout in the War on Terror.
Agree?
[ March 22, 2007, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 23, 2007, 09:37 AM:
Nobody ever scrolls down to the political forum. Nine votes is shameful! Get with the program, people!
Posted by blakyote (Member # 1064) on March 23, 2007, 09:56 AM:
This is what I get when I click on vote.
"Sorry, you do not have permission to vote in this poll. "
Posted by blakyote (Member # 1064) on March 23, 2007, 10:30 AM:
I stay logged in all the time.Still isn't working for me,I get basically the same message when trying to view results. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Posted by blakyote (Member # 1064) on March 23, 2007, 10:31 AM:
After posting my last post,I tried it again and it worked.
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on March 23, 2007, 10:52 AM:
Just voted.
Kelly
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on March 23, 2007, 11:18 AM:
I only visit the political portion of the site when I want my ulcer to flair.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 23, 2007, 11:45 AM:
Okay, I confess. When I moved it to the Members Forum, I didn't authorize polls in that forum.
smithers, quit whining about your ulcer, just vote! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
America deserves thie sort of symbolic crap from Democrats by electing them to office, in the first place! When will we learn?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on March 23, 2007, 12:35 PM:
I just voted.
Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on March 23, 2007, 12:52 PM:
Just voted, not suprised at the results considering the group polled. Maintain,Geordie
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on March 23, 2007, 01:19 PM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on March 23, 2007, 04:35 PM:
I vote we elect 2dogs president.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on March 23, 2007, 06:18 PM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on March 23, 2007, 06:27 PM:
All I wont is rooftop with my 30" Kriger barrel, and a spotter to tell me which eyeball I hit.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on March 23, 2007, 07:13 PM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 24, 2007, 07:28 AM:
Whoa! Just checked. I was satisfied with 100%, and this morning mercy! Two vote against? Hard to understand?
from Prescott, AZ LB
Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on March 24, 2007, 07:39 AM:
quote:
Hard to understand?
That's the leftys for ya. They talk the talk about supporting the troops, right up to the point of giving the troops more support in the form of more troops! The Demmys no that if the war was to take a change to the good, then thier chances of winning the white house in the next election will diminish. The demmys in no way shape or form want any good results to come of this war any time soon! And by not fully supporting the troops, that's exactly what they are hoping for! ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
Posted by Steve Craig (Member # 12) on March 24, 2007, 07:58 AM:
Dont worry Leonard, there will always be someone that dont know, they dont know! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
What are you doing in Prescott? Buying a house?
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on March 24, 2007, 08:59 AM:
Leonard,
It was probably BuffaloBob and Krusty.
Either that or OneCoyotes eyes were a little foggy and he double clicked on the wrong button!
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 24, 2007, 03:05 PM:
When i got home from my hunting trip, i got news that two of the local boys got hit by one of those road side bombs. One of them was a gunner in the humvee and was blown from vehicle and suffered a broken leg and some shrapnel wounds.
The driver was not so lucky, he was hit buy most of the blast that came up from under the humvee. Over 70% of his body was burned and he was medivaced to Texas burn center..God bless our troops, they have my support....
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on March 24, 2007, 04:22 PM:
2dogs, you keep posting in the wrong forums.
Here ya go:
WWF.com
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on March 24, 2007, 04:38 PM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on March 24, 2007, 05:34 PM:
Dang Professor, if you keep that up, little 2dogs isn't going to want to hold your hand and sing Kumbaya around the campfire with you!
Posted by Buffalobob (Member # 825) on March 24, 2007, 06:23 PM:
quote:
I vote we elect 2dogs president.
It would certainly be an improvement.
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on March 24, 2007, 06:37 PM:
I wish one of you liberal Democrats could come up with some actual reasons as to why you keep saying that George Bush is a bad President.
Other than the fact that you voted a loser and lost, what do you have against Bush?
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on March 24, 2007, 07:25 PM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on March 24, 2007, 07:28 PM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on March 24, 2007, 07:35 PM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on March 24, 2007, 07:51 PM:
Sounds like somebody quit taking their meds...
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on March 24, 2007, 08:00 PM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 24, 2007, 08:59 PM:
Hard to believe 7% of our membership are closet surrender monkeys!
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on March 24, 2007, 09:59 PM:
Tim, don`t hassle 2 dogs ******* when he`s on the whiskey.
LB, I figured with the way it was worded that no one would vote against supporting our troops, I would like to see it over with myself but not like they want to do it. Which raises a good question....when IS it over? By what landmark event can we mark the calanders as the day it was over or will be over. Maybe it won`t ever be over, does anyone know.
Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on March 24, 2007, 11:34 PM:
What ever happened to the line item veto?
Funding for troops…..Signed
Deadline for withdrawal….VETO
All attached pork……VETO
I guess that is just a pipe dream that will never be fulfilled.
JD, as far as I’m concerned the war was won the day Sadam got pulled out of that hole. Since then it has been a training mission for the Iraqi troops. I think when the Iraqi’s step up most of our troops should come home. At least that is the way I see it in my little world, who knows how it will be in the real one?? I too hope they come home sooner than later with their heads held high boasting “Mission Accomplished!”.
Every time I hear the rug pulling, redeploy, cut and runners talk about how many lives have been lost in Iraq. I think of a couple of things, first is the 3000+ innocent fathers, mothers, sons and daughters that were lost that day, many of those families didn’t get closure of putting their loved ones to rest. We were sure that it was going to happen again and soon. It hasn’t thanks to the men and women in the military under the direction of our duly elected Commander and Chief. How quickly many have forgotten that day because we haven’t been attacked on our soil since that dreadful day. Once again the population is too comfortable and relishing in the safety and freedom our troops and President have provided.
The other thing I think about is the number of soles lost on our highways every year. They used to say that every 30 seconds someone is killed in a DWI accident. It would seem that it might be safer to be in the military stationed in Iraq than traveling our highways here at home.
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on March 25, 2007, 02:48 AM:
Open letter to Ms. Pelosi;
Dear Nancey,
Do you, by any chance know who Neville Chamberlain was?? If not, mayhap you could better do the 'caring & nurturing' thing by being a grandmother and leaving politics to men who know what they're doing.
Sincerly,
Kokopelli
P.S. Warmest regards to your lesbo friends; Babs Boxer, Di-Fi, & Hank Waxman.
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on March 25, 2007, 10:10 PM:
Tim,
I don't play here anymore, so I didn't vote.
It's a bullshit poll anyway... no middle ground.
I've said all along, I'm not a liberal.
If anyone cares what my opinion is, read on;
I don't think we should cut spending, we sent those poor guys over there without enough stuff to fight a proper war, to make them try to finish it with even less, in a set timeframe, is insane.
I am not a General, I don't think I can do a better job of fighting the war than they can...politicians should LET THEM DO IT, and stay the hell out of their way.
Micro-management is how they got into this mess.
Iraq has a lot of oil, it's got to be worth enough to fund their own war, and the rebuilding of their own country.
Let then start paying for some of it, and doing some of the work, it's not a free ride.
There's no way I feel like I am getting my money's worth, when hundereds of people turn up tortured and murdered every day.
That is not a secure and democratic way of life.
I don't mind completing the mission... but just WHAT what is it THIS week?
Krusty 
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on March 26, 2007, 04:07 AM:
Be careful there Krusty!
If you keep suggesting that people need to get off of their butts and work to pay their own way, the Democrats are going to take away your membership card.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 26, 2007, 07:17 AM:
The problem, gentlemen, is not in admitting (with 20/20 hindsight) that mistakes have been made. Show me a war where mistakes have not been made. It is the Democrat's demoralizing solution to the central problem.
Good hunting. LB
[ March 26, 2007, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 26, 2007, 11:00 AM:
PS, I don't see anything dishonest with my phrasing of the question.......
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on March 26, 2007, 12:57 PM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on March 26, 2007, 04:04 PM:
Leonard, I wouldn`t say it`s dishonest at all, if read closely it does however leave only one choice. The libs don`t offer a viable choice with all there cut & run jibberish & I believe the way you phrased it is correct considering the situation.
Posted by Buffalobob (Member # 825) on March 27, 2007, 05:21 AM:
I apologize if my remark upset people. The only reason I made a post was to acknowledge that I had voted. There was no insult intended to anyone on this forum. I just did not want to be accused of not owning up to my vote.
I have no problem in hunting with anyone and the only rules are
1. No political discussions- we are there to hunt, not to argue over problems we can't solve.
2. No shooting hawks, owls, eagles and endangered species.
[ March 27, 2007, 05:21 AM: Message edited by: Buffalobob ]
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on March 27, 2007, 05:55 AM:
Ya know Buffalobob, that's one of the things that I really like and respect about you.
You and I have totally different political ideologies, But you don't apologize for your political beliefs.
I'll be the first to admit, I can't understand the thinking of most modern Democrats. Too much of it smacks of Communism and Socialism. If I get out of bed each day and work hard to provide a good life for my family, I don't think that I should have to share my good fortune with the lazy slob next door, who doesn't want to work. Why should I be forced to share ( Taxed ) with those who are unwilling to stand up and earn their fair share?
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on March 27, 2007, 06:26 AM:
Hell Behle, I`m voting for you in 08.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 27, 2007, 07:31 AM:
Ditto to what Jason said....
[ March 27, 2007, 07:31 AM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 27, 2007, 10:27 AM:
Yeah, I agree. BB, I know you have the credentials and do many of the things we do here. I also know that your politics are 180 degrees from mine. I have a hard time understanding how that happens, but, (as they say) it's a free country? I also agree with the thinking that says; keep your friends close and your enemies closer.
Your perspective has value, and I respect the fact that you have the balls to keep your head up and fire back.....now, if I could just find out who the other three members are, that voted to pull out, regardless of the job being completed, by an artificial time limit? Man, that smacks of Korea and Viet Nam, (etc.) and I can't understand that mentality, for the life of me?
Seems to me that John Kerry said it best, back in the day, and said again; before Christmas, just what his brand of "supporting the troops" looks and sounds like, and why he had to check his Presidential Aspirations at the door, when he accidently pulled his own skirt up and the people saw what he had underneath.
Good hunting. LB
PS, Man, I am almost ready for a Blue State/Red State divide, and why I am so goddamned sick and tired of living in the People's Republik. They are not like me and don't think like me and they bug the hell out of me and I would just as soon have nothing to do with the whole liberal attitude. There is something WRONG?
Good hunting. LB
Oh yeah, I support Bush 90% and thank God that John Kerry, (and Al Gore before him) isn't dealing with our problems, foreign and domestic!
LB
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on March 27, 2007, 12:03 PM:
God Ive missed this place.
But if yalls electin a president off here, I wanna throw my hat in the ring.
I voted LB. Ill let you take a guess which way.
I see the hole huffer got fired up about something. Wish I would have been around to read it before he got pissed off and deleted it all.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 27, 2007, 12:42 PM:
Yeah, I know, but I could have guessed which way you voted, Andy. I just said that I couldn't view the votes so as not to intimidate the closet liberals, out there; but I can.
BB, here's what occurs to me. The reason why you have a policy against discussing politics is because you have found out that the vast majority of your hunting and shooting friends are conservatives. My friends are not, and never suggest that we limit conversation on any subject. I may choose not to discuss politics with business associates, or even some neighbors, but I'm afraid that I do not know any other libs that hunt, so I never had a reason to invoke such a policy? And, furthermore...if they did, that would prove to be a most entertaining discussion that I, your humble servant would (certainly) not shy away from!
Good hunting. LB
edit: I think 2dogs was going to offer to kick a bunch of ass? Bare knuckle, high school dustup and everybody became scared and intimidated, so because he proved his point and everybody could see what a hard ass he was, he decided it was no longer necessary and deleted it. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
[ March 27, 2007, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on March 27, 2007, 02:34 PM:
quote:
Oh yeah, I support Bush 90% and thank God that John Kerry, (and Al Gore before him) isn't dealing with our problems, foreign and domestic!
Well hell Leonard, I`d say I support bush about 86.3% but when I say stuff like that all the Rush worshipers accuse me of hideous acts of liberalism, go figure. I have respect for anyone who can think for themselves whether I agree with them or not but what I don`t care for so much is hardcore political views one way or another with no real reasons behind those beliefs other than Rush said so or Al Gore said so.....who gives a poop what some talking head says I should or should not support, I have a brain with a few functioning cells left, I can think for myself, I just wish everyone else could do the same.
BTW....I`m not so sure about Andy, the other day on the phone he mentioned something about Al Gore giving blowjobs, that sounds like liberal talk to me.
Of course I may have unintentionally misquoted him or something.
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on March 27, 2007, 02:40 PM:
I beleive what I said was if you called Gore and told him about that car you bought, he might give you a blowjob.
Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on March 27, 2007, 02:41 PM:
You can rest assured that my vote was not one for pulling the funding.
The people who vote Democrat that amaze me are the ones who actually do earn an honest living, usually a blue collar or construction job. Almost always union. They think that the liberal of today has the common man in mind and in their hearts. Far from it.
'Coarse, I think they ought to outlaw unions, too.
Notice that you never see many politically liberal successful entrepreneurs or engineers.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 27, 2007, 03:01 PM:
No Joe. The Dems are pandering to the peaceniks and the minorities, the dirty enviros and animal rights wackos.... and the illegals, (and who they wish to enfranchise)
Where I do not understand Bush is on border issues, and I seriously disagree on those policies. Get rid of stupid restrictions against profiling.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on March 27, 2007, 03:17 PM:
I probably agree with Bush less than most conservitives. however the cut and runners should be ashamed of themselves for not supporting our commander and chief during a time of war.many mistakes were and are being made , but we need to back our efforts 100%.young men and women are giving thier lives for this cause and anything less than victory is ludicrous.I also am not a general,but it seems that even the military is watching the political correctness monitor when kicking ass and taking names should be all they care about.sanitizing war for the 6:00 news should be of no concern.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 27, 2007, 04:06 PM:
JD:Well hell Leonard, I`d say I support bush about 86.3% but when I say stuff like that all the Rush worshipers accuse me of hideous acts of liberalism, go figure.
I wouldn't feel bad about that,I would say you and Leonard are about where most Conservatives are including myself on there support for Bush.I don't think Rush and Hannity are 100% supporters of Bush.
But like Leonard said It could be worse ALOT WORSE.FWIW Good Hunting Chad
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 27, 2007, 05:08 PM:
You gentlemen that voted for surrender want to explain yourselves, and (oh!) is it okay if I identify you? Email me your concerns and I'll probably keep your secret. LB
Posted by Steve Craig (Member # 12) on March 27, 2007, 05:12 PM:
I used to be a Dem. Why? Probably because my parents were. They were conservative Democrats. FDR types.
Different era back then.
When I first voted Republican in 1976, it liked to killed my mom and dad. But Jimmy Carter proved me right to them.
Voted Republican ever since.
Leonard, this is a darn fine discussion.
As far as the other 3?
You just have to chaulk it up to, "they dont know, they dont know". It seems that more and more libs are falling into this group.
I got nothing against them. They just dont know they dont know!
Steve
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 27, 2007, 05:15 PM:
this just in from cyberspace:
Brain Dead
While visiting his niece, an elderly man had what was apparently a stroke.
She drove wildly to get him to the Emergency Room.
After what seemed like a very long wait, the ER doctor appeared, wearing his scrubs and a long face.
Sadly, he said, "I'm afraid that your uncle's brain is dead but his heart is still beating."
"Oh, dear," cried the woman, her hands clasped against her cheeks with shock.
"We've never had a Democrat in the family before!
[ March 27, 2007, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Steve Craig (Member # 12) on March 27, 2007, 05:22 PM:
L-O-L!!!!!
Good one!
Posted by jspike1 (Member # 896) on March 27, 2007, 05:37 PM:
I'll admit that I voted the wrong way in this poll. After a 12 hr day I read the question the wrong way. I thought you were asking which of the two I thought dems were choosing. My mistake should've answered in the morning.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 27, 2007, 06:31 PM:
Welcome to the New Hutmasters, jspike1. Glad to have you on board...although it seems that you have been lurking for quite a while? You are forgiven, I probably could have worded the question a little more clearly?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by jspike1 (Member # 896) on March 27, 2007, 06:47 PM:
Nah Leonard I was just bushed. When I reread it the next morning I realized my mistake. I'm still a beginner so I have just been lurking trying to pick up some tips. I already asked most of my newbie questions on PM. Now I have reached a point of just staying in the background unless the conversation is about something that I know.
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on March 27, 2007, 07:17 PM:
I forget exactly who made this quote and the exact quote so i'll paraphrase:
If you are in your 20's and aren't a democrat you don't have a heart. If you are in your 30's/40's and not a republican you have no brain!
[ March 27, 2007, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: smithers ]
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on March 28, 2007, 05:39 AM:
Steve,
I was in the same boat your in, sorta. My family are all strong democrats and view me as a blacksheep. But, at the same time, they are very religious, southern baptist. I ask about issues such as abortion, embrionic stem cell research, gay marriage, 2nd, ect... and they are republican as can be. But if you try and tell them that, they throw a fit about the fat cat republicans taking from the working man and giving to the rich. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Its sad. Its a strong case of my daddy was a democrat as was his daddy and his daddys daddy, ect.... Bullshit. They dont realize the parties swapped values many years back.
My inlaws are democrats for another reason. My father in law is a union to the bone worker. We dont discuss politics. I dont like democrats or unions. So to get along, we dont talk about it. Her brothers and sisters are all druggers and on some sort of assitance. So you know they are democrat. They wait for the check on the thrid and for daddy to die. Thats their goals in life. I dont know how my wife turned out so good.
Anyhow, Im off the pulpit.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 28, 2007, 06:57 AM:
I go along with most of what you say, Andy. My parents were also Democrats....BUT, they saw the light, (both deceased) and changed their thinking, quite some time ago. I think Kennedy was the last Democrat they voted for?
Where I do not agree with you is on the value of Unions. That's one of those myths perpetuated by the Media, lazy bullet proof workers with huge wages. This country (and the American worker) owes a lot to the Labor Movement back in the twenties, much like the Civil Rights of the sixties. Child labor laws, work conditions, hours, benefits, etc. The fat cats didn't conceed those things because they had a heart of gold. Well, that's another subject, ain't it?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on March 28, 2007, 07:05 AM:
Cant agree on everything, eh LB? Probably best not to discuss it. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on March 28, 2007, 08:15 PM:
Im sure unions outlived thier usefullness long ago , things just become institutionalized and we forget to throw them out when they are no longer needed. being a bussiness owner I can tell you that minium waqge is a joke .you cant overpay or under pay an employee.if you over pay you wont be around long , if you under pay , they won't be around long.nuff said
PM
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on March 28, 2007, 08:36 PM:
Paul, very good post indeed.
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on March 29, 2007, 06:08 AM:
Paul,
Unions may have out lived their usefulness in your situation, but I couldn't imagine having to do my job with out a Union behind me.
Workplace safety was and still is championed by Unions.
My boss will frequently suggest that I complete a task by myself, knowing that the safety rules require me to have a second person present. Because of the Union, I can demand that he pay a second person to be with me.
Unions protect workers from being treated like shit from ******* bosses.
My former partner left the Union to go into supervision, He and I still make the same money at the end of the year, but he is now required to work 50 hours a week instead of 40, and he is no longer eligible for overtime. Not to mention that his Boss brow beats him on a daily basis and he now has to take his BS or face losing his job if he stands up to the little overbearing prick.
Unions help protect workers to be able to take time off that they have earned.
I recently heard my Boss tell a new meter reader, on a Friday morning, that he would have to cancel his vacation to following week, as he thought he "Might" need him. I grabbed the Union Steward and the Meter reader's daughters got to go and see Mickey Mouse as planned.
Your employees may not need a Union, but don't assume that everyone works for a good Boss. Some of us work for backstabbing little pricks who only care about the bottom line. If it wasn't for the Union, my Safety and the ability to receive the benefits that I earn, would sail out the window the first time they became inconvenient to the bottom line.
Edited for spelling
[ March 29, 2007, 06:12 AM: Message edited by: Tim Behle ]
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on March 29, 2007, 12:48 PM:
Tim
Why on earth would you work for someone that would ask you to work in a unsafe manor or treat you like shit? I'd be gone in a New York minute.
PM
edited for spelling
[ March 29, 2007, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: Paul Melching ]
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on March 29, 2007, 07:27 PM:
Paul,
I stay because I love the location and customer base where I work. My pay is based on the cost of living in Phoenix, but I work in an area with some of the highest unemployment, and one of the lowest costs of living in the State. ( Kind of like working on a re$ervation, only the drunks are more friendly and the women know how to cook )
An hour after I made my post this morning, he pulled another stunt. I'd love to tell you about it, but at this point too many attorneys are getting involved.
I'll be the first to admit, that Unions aren't perfect, the UAW got too big and is causing the demise of the Big 3. But there is ( Unfortunately ) still a strong need for Unions in this country.
Posted by newbomb (Member # 888) on March 31, 2007, 12:11 PM:
Tim the International Association of FireFighters is also one of the "good" unions. With out it wages, time off, minimum staffing issues and health benifits would not be where they are today. I have been a union FireFighter for about 4 years now and although our small local is not very active we still reap the benifits of having a strong international.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 31, 2007, 01:06 PM:
quote:
Tim
Why on earth would you work for someone that would ask you to work in a unsafe manor or treat you like shit? I'd be gone in a New York minute.
PM
edited for spelling
Paul, (and Andy) a man has his own beliefs, and I wouldn't try to change yours. What I think is the problem in not taking your advice is that there exists a contract between the company and the collective bargaining agent, and it is Tim's belief that there is a violation of that agreement. Therefore, if he decided to leave in a New York minute, the all knowing and all powerful company would visit an injustice upon a good employee. Fortunately, in his case, at least he has somebody to pleade his case with the company which usually likes to opperate unilaterally, assuming every member of management never makes a mistake.
Without the union defending him, yeah, Tim would not have much choice, right or wrong. Most all large companies hate to admit a mistake, and there is seldom an oversight committee, so occasionally an employee can (and will be) disciplined unjustly. Large corporations would rather screw a defenseless employee than admit that a supervisor errored.
So, you have the Screen Actors Guild, The Airline Pilots Association, and many professional organizations that seem to duck under the radar because they avoid the stigma of a "union" label.
I think what has disappeared forever is the attitude of unions to DEMAND things unfairly from the corporate world. Things have a way of evening out, eventually.
On the other hand, the general attitude of the public is that the union member does very little and is paid a lot. In other words, a little jealousy might be involved, and a few employers that feel they can do everything they want, regardless of the ethics involved, without repercussion.
In other words, they sometimes mistakenly believe that they are God and the people that work for them are servants, discarded at whim.
Not always the case, but to think that the unions are always outrageous and the company is always benevolent is not a true picture of reality.
In a way, belonging to a union is like having a personal lawyer on retainer to look after a workers best interests. Does that seem unreasonable, worthy of contempt?
My feelings about this has changed 180º in the past 20/30 years and I have seen the light. I don't care what others think, but there is nothing evil in a collective bargaining agreement, to my mind.
My wife worked for a supermarket chain and belonged to the Retail Clerks Union. I once belonged to the I.B.E.W, while attending college at night. Anyway, she made fair wages and had good benefits and I never saw abuses, so I have a positive attitude concerning unions, in general. Maybe they ain't perfect, but occasionally they offer help when there is no other, and I think the days are over where they pursue an unworthy claim for an employee that has screwed up. Stealing will still get you fired, missing work because of unforseen (but valid) circumstances, won't.
Okay, I know you won't be convinced, but there it is.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on March 31, 2007, 02:28 PM:
Leonard,
You just a hell of a great job of putting my thoughts into the written word.
Thanks,
Tim
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 31, 2007, 03:07 PM:
I work for a very large construction company, 180 employees.The company is none union, but we have all the benifits of a union company. The company works along the same lines as a union. We have a committee that we can complain to and they try to settle them in house. All employees are allowed three strikes agaist them, the three strikes are erased at the end of every year and if an employee gets a third strike he goes before the committee and then they take the final vote..
I do not care to belong to a union, but i do thank them for all they have done for the working man. And thanks to them the state of Min. has simular guide lines that the employer must follow, also MSHA and OSHA play a big part as well..
Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on March 31, 2007, 03:32 PM:
The only problem I have with unions is that they like to tell you how you should vote on almost all issues and canidates. They can take a side because it may be most beneficial to them financially, bt it may also support something you morally despise.
Here is a link I was emailed recently. It is a black man, who is a veteran. He pretty much lays out the hypocrisy of the dems on this issue. If you get bored fast forward to the 7:00 minute mark where he pulls up quotes from Pelosi and Clinton urging the president to go to war.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9Yc3wYJOtI
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 31, 2007, 04:56 PM:
quote:
tell you how you should vote
You will find that middle class union members routinely ignore suggested candidates and issues. It's not like it used to be. And, guess what? Large corporations will tell there employees how to vote on issues, almost amounts to indoctrination sessions? I have been there, Amigo.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on March 31, 2007, 07:58 PM:
quote:
I think what has disappeared forever is the attitude of unions to DEMAND things unfairly from the corporate world. Things have a way of evening out, eventually.
Really!!!
I think the last I read about Ford was that their employees cost them an average of 75 dollars an hour, good for them!! But don`t bitch at me about buying a Toyota that is higher quality, cheaper price tag, better warranty, better mileage & built by AMERICANS......unions are antiquated, there are laws that have taken the place of what the unions fought for, hell even non union companies are scared to death to act inappropriately towards an employee. If you take a job working for someone else you ARE subject to their requests & demands, I don`t see anything unfair about that, inconvenient at times, yes but you DID agree to it by accepting that paycheck.
Unions are one step above welfare as far as costing the public millions of dollars.
JMO
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 31, 2007, 11:10 PM:
JD, that is the weakest argument I have heard, in quite a while. I'm glad you got that off your chest, but far as I can tell, you have not articulated any reasoning behind your opinion.
The "laws" you mention are a joke if you think the average American worker is "protected" from arbitrary termination and demotions. Ford Motor Company is probably average in their total compensation package, including health coverage, retirement, vacation and sick pay for things such as pregnancy, not to mention Federally mandated, and most likely mandatory, overtime pay.
There is a lot of ways to jack the manhour cost of each employee, when they want to score points. But, in spite of it, the big Corporate CEO's always seem to give themselves a nice chunk of the profits, usually after downsizing eight or nine thousand employees, and doubling the workload of the lucky schmucks that survived the purge.
Only a small percentage of those that deserve it, are serving time. The list includes Tyco's Koslowski, Enron's Kenneth Lay, Robert Vesco, Global Crossing, Martha Stewart, Rite Aid, Investment brokers, traders...I just can't think of all the corporate crooks at the moment, but there is just as much legal FAT at the top, dwarfing what the peons get, and of course it goes in very few pockets.
And, (sure) they work very hard compared to the dirty mechanics, etc. Yeah, riding the corporate jet, talking "business" on every golf course in the country, and complaining about the union contract THEY signed. Ironic, eh?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on April 01, 2007, 12:25 AM:
LOL....I haven`t made an argument, I was merely making an entrance.
I never defended what goes on at the top of the ladder.
Earlier you mentioned that some people may be jealous of what union workers get paid, it seems that the jealousy goes right on up the ladder, eh?
I can`t & won`t justify one wrong by finding another one to compare it to, I don`t think that way, never have, never will, that`s liberal talk.
Yes there are a lot of things in life that aren`t fair, I guess that`s why Grandad always said to me "the fair comes in august, boy" but as you said things even out & if you sit still & watch closely over the next little while you`ll see just how the union has helped "even out" the big 3....of course the taxpayer will pay for it in the end but what the hell, it`s Government money right & those poor abused sonsabitches can`t live without all those toys.
I guess I have a little different work ethic & value system than most but I`m of the firm conviction that if what you have wasn`t earned than somebody somewhere got screwed, I may never be a billionaire but I`ve earned everything I have & I sleep good at night knowing that I don`t expect someone else to take care of me for the rest of my life.
I`ve been in the factories & promptly made some decisions to do something different with my life, I did however learn that the world is full of lazy people who will do absolutely nothing over & above what they`re forced to do, bare minimum. I just couldn`t take being around people who`s most common reply was " that`s not my job" I`ve always done anything & everything that it takes to get the job done right, no exceptions.
I have a friend who is tied into Ford & the unions & he vents his frustrations on me because we are a lot alike in how we think concerning work ethics, I can assure you that the union & the laws that are replacing them have helped a lot of people in the past but in the present they are enabling people to be lazy, whining, demanding leaches who believe that they are entitled to this or that for no appearant reason other than the company is making a profit.
I`ve been a contractor for several years now & have worked on a handful of union jobsites, some of them we simply bribed the "union supervisor" for those of you who aren`t in the know, that means we gave the man in charge of making sure that all the workers were union workers, a couple hundred dollars so that we wouldn`t get our tires slashed or be beat half to death in an alley somewhere, other times we would simply show up at 5:01pm & work until the sun came up & the union workers wandered in, yes, we would work nonstop all night & the union guys would scratch there heads wondering how all that work got done cause they knew they damn sure didn`t do it, that was always my favorite part.
What an effiecient crew they are the reason the commercial contractors bring in us non union "private" boys is because he wants a quality job in a decent amount of time & working with people who can think for themselves & act accordingly & all he has to do is pay us our bid amount, no fees, no bribes, no excuses.
I`m sorry but from what I`ve seen & experienced the returns from the unions aren`t diminishing, they`re non existant at this point.
It doesn`t matter how much you pay someone who has an entitlement attitude....it`ll never be enough & they`ll always be broke & it will be someone elses fault, probably one of the executives....it`s an ugly, unfortunate scenario.........show me I`m wrong.
Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on April 01, 2007, 02:48 PM:
I spent nearly 7 years working in a meat packing plant. When I started it was a family owned and managed business. It wasn’t easy to get hired on and hard work was always recognized by management. Sometimes with a little extra on the paycheck other times with a simple thank you or a box of product to take home. It seemed to me a simple thank you from management went a long way to motivate me to stay productive and go the extra mile if need be. If something went wrong during the week and production goals were not met management would ask employees to put in an extra day and rarely if ever had trouble putting together a crew from two shifts to get the job done. Employees who had plans with their family that weekend, or simply didn’t want to, were never forced to work the extra time, in large part because the company had several people who had applied for work when there were not positions available, these people were willing to work on a “call in” basis and could easily take up any slack in some of the unskilled positions and would look at it as a foot in the door.
The family eventually sold the facility to a publicly traded national brand who had a reputation for buying packing plants and closing the doors. Anyone hear of Thorne Apple Valley? To begin with there were no noticeable changes. The plant manager and supervisory staff remained the same however, they were answering to a President and board of directors and ultimately stock holders that didn’t have a clue about how things worked at the plant that kept it productive but the bottom line was closely scrutinized. Pressure was added to the existing management that ultimately lead to resignations or dismissals. After our safety net of upper management was now gone those of us down in the trenches could see TAV’s personality. It didn’t take the newly imported plant manager long to discover that there were no likeminded supervisors in place and there were not any like minded employees to promote to that position. Eventually, supervisors were finding greener pastures either by choice or by getting fired. Those extra days that were once optional soon became mandatory. The requirement to get hired on got to the point that they would grab your wrist and if there was a pulse you were hired. After working 41 days straight I put my foot down and decided I was going to take Sunday off and told my (imported) supervisor “Thanks for the invitation but I must decline“. He said don’t make them make me fire you. I told him I didn’t think he had the balls to fire me after the string of days of honest work I had run together for HIM and management. The following Monday when I reported for work I was met by my supervisor at the door. He informed me that the plant engineer wanted to speak with me the minute I got there. I asked if he was coming with me he said yes. I punched in and to the carpet we went. The guy behind the desk said “We missed you yesterday”. I told him that that is odd because I told my supervisor that I wouldn’t be there. He then asked why I didn’t come in. I told him I had put in 41 days straight and I needed some time to myself. That set him off and he spent 5-10 minutes telling me how guys like me are a dime a dozen and I was to have my tools and other personal belongings out of there before the next morning. I grabbed a dime out of my pocket and left it on his desk and told the engineer good luck and that he was going to need it on the way out the door. In retrospect that was one of my top best things that could have happened to me events.
At the recommendation of my supervisor I did apply for unemployment. However, I was already back to work somewhere else when the State sent me the notice that I had been “terminated with cause“.
I often wondered if employees were treated the same way at Thorne Apple Valley’s union plants. Somehow I doubt it.
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on April 01, 2007, 05:34 PM:
Oh Shit Behle!!! I just noticed your new title, very nice. C`mon now I wasn`t that hard on you guys was I.
Goofy bastrds!!
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