This is topic WHAT??? No seatbelts?!?! in forum Member forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on October 16, 2007, 07:29 PM:
What is your reason for not wearing yours? ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by BigO (Member # 1062) on October 16, 2007, 07:43 PM:
No reason, I wear mine.
Posted by KevinKKaller (Member # 559) on October 16, 2007, 07:44 PM:
I Pay my taxes! Fuel- road prop on and on and on.
I will wear mine when thay want me to when the gov payes my taxes!
Good Hunting Kevin
Posted by Norm (Member # 240) on October 16, 2007, 08:19 PM:
they are constraining... they don't fit right... the government says you have to...that in it's self makes we want to not wear them...
we are smart enough to choose... no need to make it a law to make us be forced to live with someone elses choice...
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on October 16, 2007, 09:14 PM:
I want to be thrown clear...
Posted by RagnCajn (Member # 879) on October 16, 2007, 09:18 PM:
You allready know my reasons.
Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on October 16, 2007, 10:35 PM:
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Indeed Randy. Why, you were the very inspiration for this very thread! You are a ton of fun to have around the campfire. You are one of the best story tellers I've ever heard. I love to hear you talking. What a riot you are, one heck of a chef, and a very generous hunter. Thank you! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by Joel Hughes (Member # 384) on October 17, 2007, 07:58 AM:
"we are smart enough to choose... no need to make it a law to make us be forced to live with someone elses choice..."
AMEN!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 17, 2007, 08:52 AM:
I understand the concept, and I was there when Randy told the story and after ranting, the cop let him go.
But,
quote:
"we are smart enough to choose... no need to make it a law to make us be forced to live with someone elses choice..."
Without sounding like a goody two shoes, if I "choose" to drive 100MPH in a 45 zone, and I hit a pedestrian; my freedom to choose is trumped by my loss of freedom as a consequence.
There are lot's of examples. Bikers don't like a helmet law, but they are potential organ doners with a huge hospital bill they can't pay for. So, my "freedom" is being able to pay higher health care premiums, and thereby indulge their "freedom".
Like it or not, we are a Nation of Laws. Some of those laws suck! Some make a lot of sense. Unfortunately, they aren't optional, so if you choose to ignore them, the potential is; you go to jail. Big important laws and tiny insignificant laws.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on October 17, 2007, 09:30 AM:
Now I know our seatbelt law in Washington was pushed through by insurance lobbyist. How come my car insurance rates didn't go down when the law was enacted? I do wear one, but I don't think it should be a law.
Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on October 17, 2007, 02:33 PM:
Great points Leonard...... I was just wondering, so if one does not wear a seat belt driving, does he also not wear a seatbelt when flying for the same reasons? or what is the difference .most likely a seatbelt in an air crash is worthless where as a seatbelt in an automobile may prevent injury or death,and creating a burden for the rest of us who have to pay the medical bills for the underinsured. I will wear mine and could care less that the law requires it.
[ October 17, 2007, 02:39 PM: Message edited by: 6mm284 ]
Posted by Norm (Member # 240) on October 17, 2007, 03:27 PM:
Leonard, are you running for office in California??? you are beginning to sound like a politician. :}
Posted by Bofire (Member # 221) on October 17, 2007, 05:09 PM:
I am not going to talk about politics, I agree the Gvt. is a mess. BUT SEAT BELTS I will talk about.
There is only one reason not to wear them, only one reason not to wear a Helmet (I am a long time Harley rider)
its called STUPID.
if you want to die, want to be a burden on your family and the Govt. dont use em.
I have over 20 years as a Firefighter, and pulled a bunch of dead or close to it from situations.
Want to be thrown free, mad at the govt. both a total load of crap.
There is no argument here, helmets and seat belts work.
Sorry for being blunt, but thats my opinion.
Carl
Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on October 17, 2007, 05:46 PM:
Chalk me up in the Bofire/Leonard camp, particularly when it comes to helmets.
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on October 17, 2007, 05:59 PM:
I was in a rollover, it only rolled over twice so it was no big deal. I was not wearing a seatbelt at the time and I am here to talk about it. Not a scratch bruise or drop of blood spilled. I squeeeeeeezed my way out of the driver window and looked at the wreckage with disbelief. It's all luck of the draw if ya ask me. If I was wearing a belt I would still be here, I suppose.
I do wear it most of the time but other times I drive with it draped across my shoulder giving the illusion of wearing. Plenty of people are killed while wearing a seatbelt, would they have survived if they had not been restrained? You don't hear many people say they would have lived if they were not wearing a seat belt, you mainly hear the opposite. Ejection is the only time that you can definitively say that a seat belt would have saved a life, in my opinion. The EMT's, firefighters and police may have differing opinions. If it was about safety we would all be driving cars with roll cages and wearing helmets.
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on October 17, 2007, 06:11 PM:
There's no doubt that seatbelts save lives. Motorcycle helmets too. It's just that many of us resent the hell out of being told what we have to do. It's the 'cowboy way' and all of that. The question is, where will those who know what's best for us draw the line?? Indy drivers wear helmets.....why not Freeway drivers?? How about a National 45MPH speed limit?? That would save lives. Do it for the children. I think that you begin to get the idea......
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 17, 2007, 06:22 PM:
Don't worry, that argument is not lost on this kid. But, there are some things that you just are not going to win, and this is one. It's not that big a deal. I often do not wear one off road, myself. But, pick something that really matters when you throw out personal liberty; this isn't it.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on October 17, 2007, 06:23 PM:
A few years ago, I failed to nail the front brakes hard enough and locked my rear brakes and skidded way to the right. I managed to hang on as the bike straightened but only for a second and then it whipped to the left. I went flying, landed on my feet but the momentum was pushing me way too fast. I rolled and rolled and rolled while getting momentary glimpses of my bike sliding down the road towards me. Scary.
I still thank the Lord that all I got was a quarter sized scratch on my elbow and a bruised right butt cheek. BUT....you should of seen the many monster gouges and really deep scratches in my helmet...YIKES!
Helmets aren't required in CO but glad I had mine on!
edit:
P.S. Just think of what might of happened if I'd been wearing a seat-belt!?!? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
[ October 17, 2007, 06:25 PM: Message edited by: Locohead ]
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on October 17, 2007, 06:55 PM:
In my time in EMS, I recall only one instance where I attempted to resuscitate a person wearing a helmet. A newly wed couple, in their late forties or early fifties, were traveling on a touring bike, riding double. This beautiful street bike had a trailer behind it. Prior to departure from Abilene, their traveling companion noted that a cord was exposed on this guy's rear wheel. It was Sunday, no one in town could help him, so they figured they'd be okay to the next town on the Interstate. They made it about three miles when the back wheel blew and threw them both. The back of his bride's helmet hit the asphalt and split open like a melon dropped on concrete. Despite our efforts, she didn't make it. He experienced the same ride and his helmet left him with a lot of road rash, but nothing more.
As far as insurance companies and safety issue, what a joke. Does anyone realize that you pay more for auto insurance if you tell them that you smoke? Wanna know why?
In the late '80's, in King County, WA, a study was being conducted on seatbelt usage and the extent of injuries that were sustained in car accidents. Patients brought into their ER's were questioned about their seatbelt habits, and duing that study, they serendipitously discovered that smokers are less likely to buckle up. Boy, if you don't think the insurance industry glummed onto that one. Even today, if you smoke, they assume that you take other risky behaviors, i.e., no belts, and are thus an increased risk.
I have to agree. Most people I know that refuse to wear them do so only because they want to stick it to "the man".
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on October 17, 2007, 06:59 PM:
I would definitely 100% of the time wear a helmet on a bike, Loco, mandated or not. You didn't stick the landing like a gymnast? That's a 1 point deduction. The odds were in your favor.
I'll trade wearing a helmet in the car for not having to wear a seat belt like the bikers.
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on October 17, 2007, 07:17 PM:
quote:
want to be a burden on your family and the Govt.
Carl,
Maybe it's just the flat medium that the WWW has. But if I'm reading you right, I truly pity you. How could you ever consider an injured member of your family to be a burden?
I pray that my family never looks at me in that light, and I would hope that your family would never consider you a burden.
What I consider a burden on society, would have to be a person who is able, yet doesn't attempt to contribute anything to the society that he lives in.
I do wear a seatbelt when I feel the risks of other drivers are great. Such as while driving on the interstate with the cruse set at 82 or driving in a large city.
But I don't think that any man, or any Government should be allowed to tell me that I must do something "for my own good" That goes against the fundamentals of Freedom and Liberty that this country was founded on. For the life of me, I can't figure out why some people think that they should control me or my actions, when those actions have no direct bearing on them.
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on October 17, 2007, 07:19 PM:
Yea, that`s right, somebody NEEDS to "stick it to the man"
I`ve pryed a bunch of people out of cars when I was on the rescue squad & I used to race bikes & have ridden on & off for years....big friggin deal....people should have the right to choose, you may think they are stupid, so, you know what they say about opinions.
LB, your claims of higher health costs for everyone are questionable, If that truely is an issue for you then you should look at illegals first & put this issue down at the bottom of your list of lost causes. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
I don`t think their are very many of us who would say that seat belts or helmets are a bad idea, but by gawd I sure as hell don`t need one more law telling me how to save myself from......well...MYSELF.
Damn do-gooders (AKA Liberals)
Posted by Crow Woman (Member # 157) on October 17, 2007, 07:22 PM:
me... I've seen too much to not be wearing a seatbelt since I got my driver's license. And this past December certainly enforced my thinking because I might not be here to post this had I not been buckled in.
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on October 17, 2007, 07:22 PM:
Tim, we we`re typing at the same time, anyhow....very well said.
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on October 17, 2007, 07:24 PM:
I have ridden motorcycles most of my life and I dont ride without a helmet,I raced for many years and met the ground more often than I care to remember. Helmets work. Just sold my last sport bike yesterday getting to old and my reaction time is not what it used to be. May get another bike someday much milder form than what I've been riding. I cant stand helmet laws,however irresponsible people that would ride witout a helmet should sign a waiver relieving others from thier hardship if they wish to ride without.
As far as seat belt laws maybe the same thing should apply. I've been in accidents where a seatbelt would have killed me,but the fact is that is the exception.
I cant stand laws and we are never in better hands than when the legislature is in recess.
But in times where people dont understand self reliance and personal responsibilty this crap is bound to happen welcome to the world as it is.
PM
Posted by bowjunkie (Member # 887) on October 17, 2007, 08:16 PM:
I'll chip in here I think it should be a choice not a law ..I wear mine most of the time but .... thank God my daughter wasn't 2 yrs ago or she would be wearing wings today the other 2 in the jeep weren't so lucky both were killed ...by the way I have a hopped up
'rock crawler" for sale I just can't bring myself to drive it anymore
Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on October 18, 2007, 03:50 AM:
if the non wearer were the only one affected in event of an accident I would be all for the "freedom" defense of not wearing a seat belt.But that is not the case and everyone knows it.I dislike government intrusion as much as anyone but I do not view non seat belt use as a way to defy gov't as being a noble cause.I also know of numerous people who died in relatively mild rollovers but were thrown clear and killed by the impact or by then being rolled over by the vechicle. Wearing seatbelts is not a matter of freedom, it is a matter of judgement.If seat belt usage gives one a better chance of seeing children and grandkids grow up and not risking them having to bury you, then what could possible be any reason not to wear one,it has nothing to do with the government. pick a different fight with the government.
Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on October 18, 2007, 04:02 AM:
I was lucky when the seatbelt law was passed, I had a diesel pickup with glow plugs. I developed a habit of belting in while holding the key in the glow position. Absolutely painless and one of the easiest habits to form ever. I feel naked w/o a belt now.
I have reason to believe that I'd have suffered more severe injuries on two occasions w/o a belt.
Same for helmets, I've got one around here somewhere with black marks across it. Had that have been my naked gourd I doubt that I've had made it.
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on October 18, 2007, 04:52 AM:
All good points regarding seatbelts & helmets, but as Bowjunkie points out.... it should be a choice; not a law.
Again; where do we draw the line on letting others think for us and mandate what's best for us?? If we want to save lives, how about we outlaw high fat diets & movie theater popcorn? Pass the unsalted tofu please. A good cigar notwithstanding, tobacco use is probably bad for you; let's outlaw it for your own good and lower insurance costs. Unprotected sex?? That could make your plumbing leak & rot your pipes; going to need some serious gov. regs on that one. How about mandatory fitness standards?? You don't need a crystal ball to see that one coming in the workplace. Skydiving, rockclimbing & scuba?? All high risk activitys. Better put an end to all of that for the common good. Guns???? My Gawd, guns kill things....
What it comes down to is not about saving lives or insurance costs or even doing the right thing. It's about control.
End of rant.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on October 18, 2007, 04:57 AM:
Being thrown clear is an old joke. Arguments can be made either way on the seatbelt law but we all know the odds say it's safer to wear a seatbelt which I do on the highway.
Now what about something else that has just as much to do with public safety and will affect us all at one point or another, at what age should we lose our drivers license or at least be tested?
We've all seen the elderly person driving too slow because of reasons varying from, can't see past the hood, reflexes too slow, forgot to step on the gas pedal, forgot they were driving, etc. etc. Heck I know one guy who has a habit of falling asleep at the wheel, fortunatley he drives slow and wears his seatbelt. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Like it or not we have laws, some make sense, some don't. It just depends on who lobby's the loudest as to which ones are the most important. I don't like being told what to do anymore than anyone else.
ps. My favorite seatbelt law is kids don't have to wear seatbelts on school buses, they don't even have them. It'd be too expensive to install them. Yep they're really concerned about our welfare.
Posted by BigO (Member # 1062) on October 18, 2007, 06:42 AM:
when I was a kid I would put on my seatbelt. My parents would tell me to take it off because they would kill you in an accident. So, I didn't wear one for a long time.
As I got old enough to drive, I realized my parents were crazy. But, I wasn't gonna be forced to wear one. Because they are restraining, they wrinkle your clothes, and it's a general pain in the ass to have to pull it down there and click it in place.
After I became an officer and started going to a few accidents, I realized that they aren't as restraining as the belts on a gurny. They don't wrinkle your clothes as much as the stearing wheel slamming into your chest at 45 (not 80) mph. And, they aren't quite as big a pain in the ass as having several compound fractures and lacerations.
If you think the only fatal accidents happen on freeways at 80 miles an hour, you are lying to yourself. I have been to two or three fatal accidents on highways with speeds over 65 mph. I have been to alot more than three on 45 and 55 mph rated roads. And most people are killed in accidents within 20 miles of their homes.
Out of the hundreds of accidents I have been to I have seen ONE, that not wearing a seatbelt saved a life. But, I have never removed a corpse from a seatbelt either.
If they weren't so graphic I would see about posting some pics of non-seatbelt wearers on here. You could see how free they are now. They don't have to go to school or work. Hell they don't even have to breath.
Posted by furhvstr (Member # 1389) on October 18, 2007, 07:46 AM:
I wear a seatbelt cause my wife makes me.
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on October 18, 2007, 03:40 PM:
quote:
You could see how free they are now. They don't have to go to school or work. Hell they don't even have to breath.
Damn straight, at least they died free, & to top that off....why should I get all worked up about it, they made the choice, bad shit happens to all of us sooner or later.....I`ve seen hair smeared on the highway before, so, it is absolutely no concern of mine if that person decides to die that way, if I don`t want to see that sort of thing then I can simply NOT work a job that requires it. If that mans wife doesn`t want to be "burdened" by his death then she can be like furhvstrs wife & make him wear a belt but again, why should my beliefs be imposed on them, why should my version of common sense be forced upon them, we have enough laws now that everyone of us is a criminal at some time or other & probably doesn`t even know it....enough is enough already & the idea of forcing someone to think & act certain way doesn`t ring of freedom, rather it smacks of oppression.
Kokopelli.......very good post.......I think I may write you in on the 08 ballet.
Posted by BigO (Member # 1062) on October 18, 2007, 07:04 PM:
If you find a child trying to stick a fork in a wall socket. Do you let them do it, because you believe in their freedom to do that, or do you smack their behind and try to teach them that it's wrong.
Not trying to say those of you that don't wear your belt are children, but to not do something that at some point in time may possibly save your life because you want to be defiante and not conform seems a little childish.
You are free to not wear your belt if you don't want to. But, freedom has a price, If you are willing to pay the price of a seatbelt ticket, then exercise your right to be free and don't wear one. I will exercise "officer discretion" and write everyone I find not wearing one.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on October 18, 2007, 07:21 PM:
Tim,
Being a "burden" can come in any number of forms, and many of them have nothing to do with how much your family cares for you.
First off, I'm all for choice, and I think that the gov't should allow you to choose whether or not you buckle up or not, or wear a helmet, for that matter. But, if you choose to use neither, I think there ought to be federally mandated immunities from liability for personal injury for the other driver so they can provide for your family after you become a vegetable or worse. You chose not to wear protective equipment and, if the nature of your injuries indicates that a helmet or a belt would have significantly reduced those injuries, you and your loved ones should be SOL for some big settlement. And believe me, there has been enough research done on trauma kinematics to know if an injury could have been lessened or avoided.
As far as "burdens" are concerned, I wear a helmet when I ride my ATV (most of the time ) and I wear seatbelts because I've seen an otherwise uneventful life become destroyed in a fraction of a second. Some drivers simply didn't see the benefit of trading a couple seconds of inconvenience for the rest of their lives.
Why wear belts and helmets?
Yeah, I think they're a hassle, too. But, I've got a wife and kids. If something happened to me today, I know for a fact that there is no way my wife would be able to come close to what I earn because of limitations she has due to some medical issues. And nothing scares me more than to think of my family doing without because I made a bad choice, ended up permanently disabled or dead, and my wife burning up what we've managed to set aside for our future and for the kids' future paying for medical bills or a nursing home. I've made a lot of sacrifices by not taking trips to places like the campout when I know that the money is better used to beef up that safety net so I know she'll be taken care of if something should happen to me. My wife works, as much as she can, but I'm the guy paying the bills and stuffing the college funds.
My wife loves me dearly, and I have no doubts that if the worst were to happen, she would work to the point of exhaustion and end up, herself, back in the hospital. In time, the investments and savings would run out and eventually, my decision - my choice - would become a very serious burden on her, my son and daughter. Fiscally, emotionally, physically and spiritually. Unfortunately, I know exactly what it feels to be in that place. My wife was hospitalized for a condition several years ago which, at the time, we were told she would never recover. By God's blessing, the doctors were wrong. But even now, I can still see reality's gaping maul, dripping fangs and all, right in my face as I stared down the implications of raising two kids by myself, without her. I don't wish that on anyone.
You can make your own choices, and I guess you probably do for the better - but I learned early on in my EMS career that accidents, injuries, traumatic amputations, untimely deaths and the kinds of things you see when you allow yourself to look back and remember were usually because someone exercised piss poor judgment when they had a choice to make. I used to think hero stories came from guys with exciting lives. In truth, they come from dumbasses that don't have brains enough to save their own butts. LOL
Everything you do is a choice. Make the right choice, you live. Make a mistake, game over. And, there are worse things than dying. Your choice.
Just my opinion, and I have been called an opinionated prick before.
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on October 18, 2007, 11:11 PM:
Big O, I see your point & I agree that belts & helmets are a very wise choice but there is a difference between children & adults, my children are my responsibility, not yours, even though I`m sure you`re a fine LEO with our best interest in mind, I`m sorry but it`s not your choice even if the law says it is, YOU already have way to much power over the people, nothing personal mind you it`s just that it is absolutlely none of your business IMO, however the law says otherwise & I do all I can to abide by that law whether I like it or not. I do understand that you are involved in such things on a daily basis & respect your judgement on safety issues as I`m sure they are similair to mine but that isn`t the issue, the issue is freedom & the question is where does MY freedom start & YOUR power end. That may be hard to understand for you but I really don`t need YOU to protect me from myself, even if I decide to scream down the road without a helmet or a belt, it`s my life & if my family is burdened by my death then it`s THEIR problem not yours.
You CAN NOT save the world from themselves so let us live in peace whether it sets well with you or not.
Posted by browning204 (Member # 821) on October 19, 2007, 05:52 AM:
When the Govt. starts paying my truck payment, I will follow their rules on how I ride in my truck!
Posted by BigO (Member # 1062) on October 19, 2007, 06:58 PM:
JD
That is a point of view I can respect. I may not agree with it, but I respect it.
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