quote:

---

Provisions would have to be included for the inevitable depredation permits that MUST be issued on demand. An offending coyote cannot be rehabilitated or retrained. They cannot be transplanted elsewhere because experience has shown that a coyote that was problem in one area will be a problem in the next.
The only recourse is permanent removal.

---

My current and official position on coyote management is the same as AZG&F. Ron Day is the predator biologist for the dept. He is also an avid predator caller and a member of Arizona predator Callers. Ron gives a dynamite powerpoint presentation on antelope and deer fawn mortality due to coyote predation. He tells us that of the 37 management units in the state with deer and/or antelope in 19 of them fawn survival is below maintenance levels due to the coyote.
Four units fawn survival may be close to zero.
The three large Az. clubs will encourage our members to continue to target coyotes in those areas year round. We will organize and promote hunts in those units to coincide with fawning and puprearing. Other possible management tools are being explored in cooperation with the dept.
Ron Day will be the featured speaker at the PVCI meeting Tue. March 2. All are welcome to attend.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 01, 2010, 11:20 PM:
 
Unreliable or not, I don't see where the essence of my post is inaccurate? You aren't denying it, near as I can tell, just stating that you wouldn't be the one writing the regs, which I did not charge, and I also said my information was second hand. That doesn't mean it is worthless, or baseless. However, when you say the source is "unreliable" that tend to suggest that it is untrue. I am personally against any state or federal agency or organization laying out rules, regulations, seasons and bag limits. If you are advocating for any change or upgrade in status, then (I believe) you will get the biologist wennies calling the shots and they will inevitably complicate coyote hunting if given the chance. In CA, not all F&G personal are sportsmen. In fact, in position of authority, they can be quite harmful to our (HM membership) interests. Why stir the shit? Coyotes do not need protection.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on March 02, 2010, 06:24 AM:
 
I've stated my position several times in the past.
Apparently the statements are unclear to some.( Paul, Steve?)

To Leonard's Source,
I do not support a change in the coyote's management status.
I do not support a change in any other state's game laws.
IPCSCI has NOT discussed any management or conservation issues.
I DO support year round coyote population suppression efforts in management units where coyote predation is a threat/problem.

Leonard's Source, if comprehension is still a problem (it's OK to move your lips when you read)
please feel free to E-mail me.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 02, 2010, 08:47 AM:
 
In the interest of clarity, why don't you state your position one more time, for all the comprehension challenged, who missed it previously?
 

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Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on March 02, 2010, 10:39 AM:
 
Would you old coots knock it off....
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 02, 2010, 10:47 AM:
 
Yeah. lol
 

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Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on March 02, 2010, 01:04 PM:
 
When I think of the Safari Club, I think of big game. You know..lions and tigers and bears..oh my.

And when I think of big game, my thoughts lead to Africa, big horn sheep hunts, guides and expensive rifles. Which in turn makes me think money.

So as not to be disappointed.....

Calculate your dues:

If you are not an SCI member now:

Resident of USA, Canada, or Mexico - ($55 national + $20 chapter = $75)
Outside of USA, Canada, or Mexico - ($80 international + $20 chapter = $100)

If you already belong to SCI:

but do not belong to a chapter now - (application + member number + $0) You will be contacted. $20 chapter dues will be collected later when the charter is approved!
and you do belong to another chapter - (application + member number +$5 for dual chapter processing) You will be contacted. $20 chapter dues will be collected later when the charter is approved!

Make all checks payable to "Safari Club International"

Send your completed chapter application and your check to:

IPCSCI
c/o Gary Clevenger
PO Box 822
Acton, CA 93510

I am not afraid to donate money and I will continue to support organizations more on my level. Such as...

FTA
MO Trappers Association
TX Trappers and Fur Hunters

These folks see furbearers for what they are and have no intentions of elevating them to 'trophy' status.

Randy
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on March 02, 2010, 02:29 PM:
 

quote:

---

In the interest of clarity, why don't you state your position one more time, for all the comprehension challenged, who missed it previously?

---

Sure Leonard, anything for a friend.

To Leonard's Source,
I do not support a change in the coyote's management status.
I do not support a change in any other state's game laws.
IPCSCI has NOT discussed any management or conservation issues.
I DO support year round coyote population suppression efforts in management units where coyote predation is a threat/problem.

Leonard's Source, if comprehension is still a problem (it's OK to move your lips when you read)
please feel free to E-mail me.
 

---

Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on March 02, 2010, 03:06 PM:
 
Dont you old farts make me come down there and mediate this thing with a Louisville Slugger.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 02, 2010, 03:15 PM:
 
I'm old and slow.

quote:

---

I do not support a change in the coyote's management status.

---

quote:

---

I do not support a change in any other state's game laws.

---

quote:

---

IPCSCI has NOT discussed any management or conservation issues.

---

quote:

---

I DO support year round coyote population suppression efforts in management units where coyote predation is a threat/problem.

---

RESPONSE: Then, would it be reasonable to conclude that you do not support year round coyote population efforts.....in management units where no predation problems are identified?

COMMENT: This is really like pulling teeth. I see so much ambiguity in your responses that I really cannot figure out exactly what you want? I could read your answers and shrug; nothing different, no controversy, and yet, (forgive me) you use caveats and obtuse language that (to me) tends to suggest deceit and/or obfuscate. Why?

Good hunting. LB

edit: Andy, I welcome your "INTERVENTION" if it would shed some light on the question. So far, I don't see a specific denial?

[ March 02, 2010, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on March 02, 2010, 03:58 PM:
 
Rich, you have stated what you do not stand for.

What are you campaigning for?
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on March 02, 2010, 05:52 PM:
 
The assumption here is that SCI's interests lie only with the lowly coyote. I don't take what I have heard or seen so far as to indicate that at all. Thus, the name IPC where the P stands for Predator, including such noble "trophy" species as the wolf, cougar and bear.

Now, with that in mind, my interest in what SCI is doing here has to do with the fact that they are a well entrenched conservation/ hunter's rights organization with a long and storied history of success in that arena which BTW, sets them apart by light years from either of the other two "national groups".

Consider that with the fact that both Field & Stream and National Geographic went to newsstands this week with wolves on their covers and stories about the first wolves legally killed in a long time in this country and the political ramifications of same. Are the Missouri Trapper's Association and the Texas Fur folks going to carry the clout to lobby on behalf of those who seek a regulated, managed season on the large predators and convince federal lawmakers that scientific management should trump feel-good public sentiments?

As I see it Leonard, I don't know that Rich could give you an answer that wouldn't lead you to parse his words and insinuate his intentions based upon someone else's interpretations. I consider his reply to be pretty much straight forward, but if you have issues with which words he chose, I suppose he'll better explain himself and I'm betting that he will.

I seriously doubt that SCI is interested in only a bunch of mangy coyotes. As I understand it, the hunters went to SCI with the request, not SCI coming to them in search of more money.

[ March 02, 2010, 05:53 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 02, 2010, 06:38 PM:
 
Leonard,
You know what? I do believe that your memory is almost as good as mine.
 

---

Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on March 02, 2010, 08:56 PM:
 
So Lance, how was your wolf season this year in KS?? Seriously, what is a national organization going to do for coyote hunters? There always seems to be diversion from the simple questions asked. What is SCI's intentions. And, as far as state organizations go, it has ALWAYS been the state groups that have lobbied and changed legislation here for the better of trappers and hunters. In the positive changes that have taken place here, NTA or FTA had nothing to do with them. It was members of our state OFBA...period.

Rich, why the condescending attitude? That in it self creates suspicion. Those of us living in areas that are primarily private land, only stand to loose from the growing popularity of predator hunting. As it stands now, coyotes here are classified as furbearers with a status of ‘vermin’. Meaning, the season is open year round. What needs fixing?

Maintain
 

---

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 02, 2010, 09:08 PM:
 

quote:

---

As I see it Leonard, I don't know that Rich could give you an answer that wouldn't lead you to parse his words and insinuate his intentions based upon someone else's interpretations. I consider his reply to be pretty much straight forward, but if you have issues with which words he chose, I suppose he'll better explain himself and I'm betting that he will.

I seriously doubt that SCI is interested in only a bunch of mangy coyotes. As I understand it, the hunters went to SCI with the request, not SCI coming to them in search of more money.

---

quote:

---

Are the Missouri Trapper's Association and the Texas Fur folks going to carry the clout to lobby on behalf of those who seek a regulated, managed season on the large predators and convince federal lawmakers that scientific management should trump feel-good public sentiments?

---

quote:

---

I seriously doubt that SCI is interested in only a bunch of mangy coyotes

---

quote:

---

As I understand it, the hunters went to SCI with the request, not SCI coming to them in search of more money.

---

quote:

---

More money??? Go to a SCI Convention if you want to see the one of the largest gathering of millionaires in the US

---

quote:

---

More money??? Go to a SCI Convention if you want to see the one of the largest gathering of millionaires in the US

---

Aren't we missing the point here?

Why is the above statement not a good thing! I think it's a damn good thing to have on our side!The more big dollar people we have on our side just equates to more clout the way I see it.
The more money the more connected most are as well, that's also a good thing when we want to pass legislation and protect our sport.
We can do something to gain a hold on what we have or we can just bitch at each other and how bad all these org's are and let everything be taken away from us by well organized groups of anti's... give it a break guys and start helping here. No state org has the power to stop anything if the public wants it passed. If you believe any org can save your hunting rights then join them, join every one of them! What is the matter with trying to do what is right for our sport?

I get really sick of hearing the negatives before anything positive can even get started. How many of you that are bitching and pointing fingers have even gone to the "IPCSCI" website and read the info there? How many of you are members of a hunting org or even the NRA?

Problem is, we think of ourselves as having some grand meaning by whining away on these websites but our numbers are almost 0% of the sportsmen in the United States alone.
If you don't want to help save our rights than get the hell out of the way so those of us that are trying can get something done... RANT OVER!
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on March 03, 2010, 05:01 AM:
 
"So Lance, how was your wolf season this year in KS?? "

Diversionary, Geordie. Sadly, you're right that national organizations do little for the local fights. But, that's always been the nature of NTA - reactive posturing due to lack of money and lack of clout.

Rather than wolves, of which we have none, let's talk mountain lions. In the past fifteen years, at least three different lions have been killed or found dead near Kansas while Kansans have claimed for longer than that that they've been seeing them. And KDWP insisted all along that they weren't here, even though they're a native species. Of those three, two were in MO and the other was found dead along the KS/ OK border. In the past three years, one has been killed in KS near Medicine Lodge along the OK border, and a second one was verified near Wakeeny in NW KS. Because KDWP has finally admitted that they're here, some people are concerned and some people are interested in managing them from the get go. Right now it is illegal to shoot one unless it is actively engaged in causing property damage, and then only to be killed by the property owner. I believe that IA is the only state that allows them to be shot on sight. At this time, a bill is before the KS legislature to allow for a hunting season on big cats. I don't see the Kansas Fur Harvesters chiming in on either side, nor will I expect to. It would be nice to have a recognizeable national group to step up and advocate on behalf of predator hunters who would support such a season, but we don't have that.

Idaho held their first wolf hunt last year and the whackos are up in arms. Again, read about the events that have happened since those first kills in either F&C or NG. The F&S article outlines how the supposed management plan falls woefully short of what will be needed to protect their elk herds, and even that is under fire. It would be nice to have a recognizeable national organization there to advocate on behalf of predator hunters who see the need for this.

Kansas last year almost lost the use of snares on public ground because of one isolated incident. KFHA's position was to not defend snares because they didn't want to make waves. At the request of a small group of people, I took the point and appeared on a state wide radio call-in show and confronted the lies and mistruths that were being disseminated about what happened in this incident, snaring and trapping. This was, IMO, where the tide turned in our favor. Being proactive takes money and aligning oneself with a group of millionaires seems to be a good way to find those funds - sorta like insurance.

Moreover, look at the name for national groups National TRAPPERS Association. It's all about trapping, and as much as I love trapping, the fact remains that trappers are a dwindling demographic. Even our own state group has abandoned its original intent to represent the fur hunter in order to focus on trappers. In many states, callers have no representation at the legislative level. We're left to stand around waiting to see if and when good things happen to us. Groups like NPHA cannot lobby for callers. SCI can.

Predators and their control will come under increasing scrutiny in the next few decades and to me, based upon the logic that it's always better to gain your momentum while traveling downhill, now is the time to get organized in our defense - and defending rights is the litmus test I apply toward whether a group gets my support or not - and bring the different groups together under one common umbrella. SCI has the footprint necessary, and the organizational structure, to claim its credibility here whereas other national groups don't.

The International Predator Callers already exists.

SCI already exists.

SCI already recognizes all the various predators we hunt so what changes here?

No one anywhere is advocating any changes in coyotes or a season for them, and any suggested changes that you guys keep reading into Higgins' words may apply only to those eastern states where seasons are restrictive but don't allow for increasing depredation issues. I can't say much on that except that from Rich's comments, now we have others believeing that he's advocating seasons on coyotes. He says he isn't. Leonard says he isn't being argumentative. I say he sounds like he is. Sitting down and forcefully crossing your hands across your chest and pouting that you don't like the expansion of calling isn't going to change the fact that it is growing. You're the only ones entitled to enjoying the "sport" because you got here early? Maybe those who were doing this ten years before some of you started calling looked upon you as a crowding intrusion. It's much more prevalent now than it was ten and fifteen years ago, so did those guys who called when it was relatively uncommon east of, say, Arizona, have the right to be annoyed at some of you because you joined in because it was "popular"? We have more callers in my area now than I've ever seen. Can't complain because I'm one of the people that has been promoting it thru my writing. At the same time, we have more coyotes than I've ever seen in my life right now. We ended this season with more coyotes/sq. mile than what we usually start with. Something going on there.
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on March 03, 2010, 05:11 AM:
 
Hey Numbnuts. Thats very much the same mantra you were preaching over at PM.....right up till Mock, Berry and the rest of the frogmen threw you under the bus. Right there, you have a small group of people with their hands on the purse strings all chanting 'good for the sport'.
Sorry Nut, I will remain cautiously optimistic in regards to keeping my rights to hunt predators. I don't think the sky is falling yet.

Maintain

Oh yeah......Rant getting warmed up.(insert dumb ass smiley here)
 

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Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on March 03, 2010, 05:43 AM:
 
Im about this close to locking this thread.

Ok, couldnt resist that. (dumb ass smiley)

Mo already has a season on coyotes. Closes, they claim, for turkey season, but it runs pretty good for the bulk of whelping. I dont see a problem at all. Fur hunters and people that give a shit are done anyway for the winter. Makes the road hunters park their trucks for a while and gives the bitches time to get the pups up and eatin at least.

I would personally rather see people just leave it alone. However, I know some places have problems. Here in MO, IMO, we have one of the best Dept of Conservation anywhere and we dont have a problem I can see. Things just keep getting better on all levels, kind of like Shaw was saying. So maybe Im being selfish.

Now go get em Geordie.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 03, 2010, 06:00 AM:
 
All I know is all the millionaires are leasing up all of our private land. That makes it pretty hard for a poorboy to hunt. Doubt if they care if Joe Blow hunts coyotes, heck them is trophy's now, ought to be just for those who can pay enough for em.

3 orginazations started just this year to help me kil coyotes and get the credit I deserve. Make check payable to... give me a break.
 

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Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on March 03, 2010, 06:12 AM:
 
Tom, thats the truth. Ive only leased one place in my life and we got it, what I discovered later, cheap and kept it for ten years. The old man that owned it died and the boys leased it for much more than we could afford. Sad situation. I tried to find a place to take my boys deer hunting in North Mo the last two years. For the money I had spent for 1250 acres, I might get a 100 acre tract, if I could find one. Not worth a shit to hunt pass through deer.

Money talks I guess.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on March 03, 2010, 07:23 AM:
 
CDog,
You are one of my favorite people here, but Rich Higgins said this (twice),

quote:

---

I DO support year round coyote population suppression efforts in management units where coyote predation is a threat/problem.

---

quote:

---

The more big dollar people we have on our side just equates to more clout the way I see it.

---

quote:

---

I get really sick of hearing the negatives before anything positive can even get started.

---

quote:

---

I do admire and enjoy coyotes.
Rich Higgins

---

quote:

---

And, quit with the shots at millionaires, thank you!

---

Ok..Ok.. I couldn't relate to it anyway. So something I can.

Blindly throwing money into an organization is like spending a bunch on a date for dinner, drinks, and dancing. Then receiving a dose of the clap for your efforts.

How's that?

Randy
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 03, 2010, 12:02 PM:
 
Okay, something concrete. This is about donating money for some sort of cause? Joining some org.?

LB

edit: I'm not playing dumb, I am dumb. I don't have a frickin clue what this shit is about?

[ March 03, 2010, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 03, 2010, 12:33 PM:
 
Fer cripe sakes, Higgins! How much time do you need to sugar coat your message? Inquiring minds want to know, and this is your chance to set the record straight. Maybe somebody can get him on the phone, if his computer's broke? HELP! HELP! HELLO?
 

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Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on March 03, 2010, 03:22 PM:
 
Nikonut said: "No state org has the power to stop anything if the public wants it passed."

That sure didn't happen here in Idaho in 1996 when the anti's got a spring bear hunting ban on the ballot. When this started, most hunters were pretty freaked and quickly turned to the NRA for advice and funds on how to stop the anti's. The NRA turned out to be mostly a joke for help and Idaho hunters formed a sportsmen's coalition, raised money, and fought in the best way they saw fit. The ban was easily defeated in the election that November and the state sportsmen's coalition deserves most of the credit. I darn near dropped my NRA membership after I saw the little help they were.

I'll support the small state org's that actually keep my best interests at heart rather than the outfit that figures the best was to score a Lesser Kudu..
 

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Posted by CCP (Member # 913) on March 03, 2010, 03:27 PM:
 
I never liked the club or org mentality and always did things the way I wanted to.

Now in the past few years’ groups have been popping up everywhere, Just like promoters did in the beginnings of the deer hunting industry. Problem is these guys are self appointed with no accountability of the people’s money or their actions. Whether we want to believe it or not coyote hunting is the largest new sport in the hunting industry.

What happens when a hunting sport grows so fast? Biologist and game and fish can’t keep up or have the means to do so. Now what will be there natural process? Like hog hunting has became in some areas they see a large groups hunting them even though hogs are a pest and destroy large tracts of land some states decided we should have to buy a special licenses to hunt them. I believe California just went up on their licenses this year. The next progressions will more than likely be a season and permits purchased for killing problem hogs.

Don’t think this will not continue to spread and begin in the coyote hunting world. The promoters and look at my club/org will make sure of that. So if there is no getting around these self appointed yahoo’s from drawing even more attention (99% of that in promoting contest) do we just watch them grow and be the ones leading and making the decisions for what you and I enjoy doing?

I think not! That’s why I looked hard at SCI they already have the ground work laid in government and helping hunters. If you don’t like the ones in office now it is just a matter of a short time and the newly elected officers will be in office. Now what other group is setup and structured that way? Even large smart companies keep fresh people in the idea dept.

Don’t get me wrong I hate the fact that it has been coming to this, but just like the deer/hog hunting world the promoters and look at me crowds are taking over.

Also remember 90% of the coyote hunter’s aren’t on the internet. I just got another invite to the hog/predator expo in south GA. How many expos and org’s you think we will have in 5 more years?

Join the one you want or don’t join any it’s your call.

I don't like change assholes threw obama change down our throat and that is what some of these new guys are going to do. My vote for SCI is about fighting the ones wanting to promote coyote hunting to the degree that will create change.
 

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Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on March 03, 2010, 03:30 PM:
 

quote:

---

Niko you sound to me like someone who is a joiner,a promoter for the sport,as you call it.
Someone who would rather be known as a coyote hunter rather than someone who actually hunts coyotes.

---

Randy, you are somewhat correct.

By comparison to guys like you and CrossJ, Kelly, or Lance I'm not even close to being a coyote hunter. I just enjoy hunting coyotes... I've never claimed to hunt for fur or trap either. My interest is in preserving the right for all of us to hunt whatever and however it is we decide.

Due to my divorce and an anger management issue(5year mandatory gun restriction in Illinois) I am only able to hunt with a bow for now so that means I can't hunt coyotes at night during archery deer season at all. I should have my gun rights back very soon and will be hunting more. Have you got it now?

I'm going to weigh in on the issue of coyote seasons here now. In Illinois as in many states we are restricted by other seasons that parallel hunting coyotes and fox. We can only hunt coyotes at night during fox season and we don't have a cat season at all. During deer season we can't hunt coyotes unless we are hunting deer with an unfilled tag and are then limited to bow, shotgun with slugs or muzzleloaders.
These are the kinds of stupid laws that get passed when we don't have an organized effort to establish reasonable hunting regs. One person can speak up and be heard but thousands of voices speak much louder.

I'm not in favor of seasons on predatory animals, especially coyotes but I don't believe in hunting them during the breeding season either. That should be a personal choice but one that as sportsmen we actively promote on a voluntary basis. I can't speak for others but I think that is what is being said.

Your view of hunting private lands is skewed by your past availability of land in general... try finding hunting ground in Illinois! What you are seeing now is just population catching up with what was once an open landscape and it's going on everywhere. It sure doesn't make me happy either but if we bury our heads and let it happen who will we blame?

I prefer to be a joiner and advocate as much as a hunter. One won't exist much longer without the other. IMHO

Nikonut
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 03, 2010, 03:50 PM:
 
Good shit to know! Kool. We just don't invite CrossJ and Nikonut to the same party.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on March 03, 2010, 04:35 PM:
 
I feel sorry for anyone that lives in the Peoples Republic of Illinois. Although, they may actually get somewhere with their gun laws this year. There is some momentum anyway.

I hate that state and avoid it at all costs. Its next door so I gotta drive through it from time to time, but I refuse to spend a dime. Take a dump once in a while, its ok to shit on it. Thats about it.
 

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Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on March 03, 2010, 04:42 PM:
 
LB, I'm a fan of simple questions and even more straightforward answers.

If an answer consumes more than something like 88 characters I think you should be granted something like a "bandwidth reimbursement".

Who's paying these guys by the typed character?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 03, 2010, 04:47 PM:
 
My biggest issue with Illinois is that Obama came from there, therefore I hate the citizens for promoting their community organizer, in the first place. Apparently, he was fairly good at that job so the Peter Principle is proof while on his current assignment?

Where's that clarification, Higgins? Should we assume, as NASA likes to say; I just can't make it any simplier for ya?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on March 03, 2010, 05:04 PM:
 
First off, I am a Missourian - very proudly said!

Secondly(sadly), I now live in IL. Amoungst people that make Andy look like a progressive liberal - Obama did not rise out of IL. politics.

He is straight out of Chicago. Nuther country, nuther world. Land of 1000 words for a single answer. Every state has one, none of us need them.
 

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Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on March 03, 2010, 05:24 PM:
 
Joe is right. There are some damn good people in IL, everywhere but Chicago. Its a crying shame that the whole state is dictated to by such a small geographical area.

My hatred comes from their gun laws, their bonding laws, speed limits, just about everthing you can think of is fucked up. It burns my ass that my father in law, who is conservative and a big gun nut, has to have one of those stupid FOID cards. I just cant stand it. He gets pissed because we wont visit and he has to visit us. But I refuse to spend a dime there.

LB, you might not be quite as offended? Your used to Kalifornia laws, so it wouldnt be quite as big of a culture shock?
 

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Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on March 03, 2010, 05:31 PM:
 
Andy, what pisses me off is that I can not go home to Missouri and hunt and kill a coyote with a "non-resident hunting license."

I now have to have that and a fur-bearers license, or something like that. Stack the bucks up!
 

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Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on March 03, 2010, 06:57 PM:
 
Really? First I heard of that. I buy a hunting, fishing, trapping and fur handlers license each year. The fur handlers is just so I can hang on to some fur if I want til later in the year.

Anyway, I had no idea they made out of state hunters buy anything more than a hunting license.

I looked at the book and coyotes are not furbearers to residents. And, they have changed the closed season. Now its only closed from April 1-18. Unless Im mistaken, it used to be closed from March 31 til June sometime? I dont know for sure cause I dont hunt that time of year.

[ March 03, 2010, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: Andy L ]
 

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Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on March 03, 2010, 07:01 PM:
 
Joe, they may be stackin up the bucks, but of all the states I have hunted in, MO outclasses them all. Used to be that you got one deer tag and it was buck only. Then, after a while, it got to where you could kill a doe the last day if you had your tag left. That progressed to what we have today, which is buy an any deer tag for regular price and all the doe tags you want for seven bucks apiece.

Turkeys were a treat to see and even more of a treat to kill when I was a kid. Now they are thick as fleas.

As far as midwest states go, we have a lot of public hunting land.

I was talking to a game warden in a western state and he told me MO was the envy of the country. I dont care if they make a few bucks if they keep up the good work.
 

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Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on March 03, 2010, 07:31 PM:
 
You guys are right on about Illinois being a great state if it wasn't for Chicago. That cesspool really mucks it up for the whole area.

Rich Higgins invited the small game biologists from the Arizona Game and Fish to speak last night at PVCI's monthly meeting. Rich did express how he believes that coyotes need a season except in areas where depredation is a problem. Sorry, but I cannot remember the guys name. I have a problem with names, but I'm pretty good with numbers. Well this speaker did say that it is critical to kill coyotes in Antelope country in the months of March, April and May. The damn coyotes are easy to find. Just glass up a doe antelope and there will probably be a coyote nearby waiting for her to drop her young. After the presentation during Q&A, I asked the question if it helps to kill coyotes the other 9 months, that is year round, and he responded with a most definite YES. That is why I kill'em every chance that I get in these areas. I sure did raise a stink at one web site a while back making that statement, but that is my belief. Every four legged animal in the wild dies from two natural causes. They are either eaten alive or they starve to death. It doesn't bother me to know pups will starve to death. I’m the type of guy that does his own thing and doesn’t usually go along with the crowd. I hunt with very few people, and I hunt alone a lot. I have also been using an Ecaller lately which that the club doesn't condone. I will probably return to the mouth call for most of my calling because I'm missing the action of getting them in real close. I don't find it as much fun when they are 50 feet from you. I don't take part in any of the club hunts so there isn't any issue with me turning in proof of kills using an ecaller.
Just my .02
 

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Posted by Bopeye (Member # 907) on March 03, 2010, 07:58 PM:
 
I have never joined not one single hunting organization in my life. Never.
I am a member of the NRA and that's it. I sure as hell didn't jump on the NPHA bandwagon when it came rolling into town, but most of that was a gut feeling that it would be ran like a clone of PM. I was right. Go figure. JRB is about the only coyote hunter on this earth that I wouldn't piss on if he was on fire, but that's a personal thing and will be fine someday.

Having said all of that, I did join the IPCSCI for several reasons, but one of them is term limits. NO one person can hold the reins very long. Just like one day that Ba$tard we have in white house will be gone. I long for that day.
It's the same way with SCI.
Also, they don't work to change the laws, they work to help local and state clubs accomplish what they need done. A little muscle behind the group is what they provide.

I personally am very fond of our coyote regs, except one. I would like caliber restrictions loosened up a bit.

As far as the other laws, I am good with them.
Year round hunting.
No night hunting.
No limits.
Just need a small game license.

I like all that. A bunch of guys in my state want to change the laws where we can night hunt.
Piss on that. That just brings more regulations.
Not for me.
Piss on seasons, limits, or anything else. However, if my right to hunt coyotes becomes endangered by some nut jobs, I will be happy to have IPCSCI right there to help back our play.

I know in the coyote hunting world we have a bunch of personal conflicts. I don't see that changing in the near future, but maybe someday it will.
We have to start somewhere, with someone that is already established. Screw a bunch of greedy suckwads starting something new. SCI has been around since '79. I know you guys know this, but our rights to hunt are in jeapordy from all sides.
I personally don't want to have to lease land to coyote hunt. When that happens, I will say to hell with it and take up Crappie fishing again.

So why not join up with a big organization that has clout and lobbyists in Washington that can lend assistance to state and local clubs?

All I can say is help me preserve hunting for my kids and grandkids or get the hell outta my way. I'm gonna at least try even if I fail, I will be able to say I tried. Who can say the same?
State and local clubs won't have the clout to do shit.
A big organization can.
The way I see it. You can either try to help or just set around and bitch when you start losing your rights one at a time.
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on March 03, 2010, 08:08 PM:
 
We don't need no stinkin coyote seasons.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on March 04, 2010, 03:29 AM:
 
I sense a bit of a dichotomy here.

On the one hand, we have large, well financed organizations which provide backing and lobby for hunters' rights as a whole.

On the other hand, we have members of these organizations with the philosophy of providing game status and seasons (read more regulation) on the animals we predator hunters like to hunt.

In one sense, Nikonut and Bopeye may be correct, because without more mainstream predator hunters involved in the more powerful organizations (read SCI), the members who are presently involved (Rich Higgins) will have the opportunity and power to push for their OWN agendas without input from the rest of the coyote hunting world.

I find this unfortunate, because not all of us have the time and/or money to be involved with organizations like SCI.

Edit: Rich Higgins, no disrespect is intended to you. You have a right to your opinions, whether or not some of us may agree. I am just stating facts as I see them without the benefit of further clarification.

[ March 04, 2010, 03:33 AM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on March 04, 2010, 04:24 AM:
 
I don't care, one way or the other, about any of this organizational stuff. Guys want to have another club, fine. Guys don't want to join it, fine. None of my business either way. Utah doesn't allow wildlife management via ballot initiative. The only changes that a national org might bring about, would probably be something I'd hate, I'm guessing. I don't like "the sport" being promoted, frankly. Hell, I can't even stand hearing it called that - "the sport". Grates on me like nails on a chalk board. But, anyway, no "antis" under my bed, I'm frankly just not concerned about them. So, this is all just piss in the wind, as far as I'm concerned.

But I do think that any antelope that don't get properly eaten by coyotes are just a damn waste. I'd as soon the resources spent killing the coyotes, went towards sustaining them. Instead of air gunning, drop meat baits laced with something to help them against distemper and parvo . Would make as much sense to me as trying to stop them from eating delicious antelope fawns. Seriously, piss on the lousy antelope. Making coyote turds is what God put them there for.

- DAA
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 04, 2010, 04:44 AM:
 
Can't disagree with anything DAA said.

Good Hunting Chad
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on March 04, 2010, 04:54 AM:
 
http://microblogbuzz.com/redirect/58790168

How willing are the various state trapping associations from MT to NM to drain their coffers taking on the Obama administration to fight this? Notice that one of the species for which protection is being sought on these fourteen properties totaling 10m acres is the coyote.

Rich can think what he wants. It's his entitlement, just as it is yours. Fact is that this project is in its infancy and, at this point, those that are directly involved are no more than a steering committee in the early stages of nominating candidates for a board of directors who, working with SCI, will determine further courses of action. If you feel so strongly about policy affecting coyote hunting on a national scale, you have another option, that being to get involved.

There have been those in the past who were, and still are, involved with local calling organizations. They boast proudly of their involvement and what they accomplished in those times. There are others today who see their involvement in organized events as being something on a larger and broader scale. No difference, to me.

The policies set forth may very well be that we, as a group, seek to lobby to keep coyote hunting just as it is today - minimally regulated. I'm all for that. You, as a sideliner, can either be part of pursuing that end, or, as stated earlier, you can sit around and wait for good things to happen to you.
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on March 04, 2010, 05:45 AM:
 
DAA, I totally agree!!! I just wish deer got mange.

So Lance, your thoughts,.....a season on coyotes or not?? (and I don't mean self imposed)

Maintain
 

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Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on March 04, 2010, 05:52 AM:
 
I read these pages with great wonderment. What drives grown men to argue about an animal with a street value of about $5. I'm appalled, life was never meant to be a drama over such a trivial subject
 

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Posted by Joel Hughes (Member # 384) on March 04, 2010, 05:59 AM:
 
"What drives grown men to argue about...."

Now you have to admit, that right there is pretty funny. From Mr. internet grownup himself. LOL
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on March 04, 2010, 06:22 AM:
 
A question I would have for those units in AZ. with such fawn mortality is, what if the survival rate goes up in the future? Is there a season then in those units, left to be dictated by a magical number? The old foot in the door concept.

Sometimes the agenda of a season or a regulation is hidden in its conception and revealed later on when it is to late. It takes much less time to make a regulation than to change one!
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 04, 2010, 06:35 AM:
 
I think I agree with DAA, Joel Geordie and Randy Roade. And Kelly. But, Carey told me at the campout that the first thing he does is lie, so let's see what else happens?

It seems that the subject is seasons on coyotes, which is what my source told me before our "Reliable Source" (Higgins) corrected my statement with a refute that still doesn't tell me what is his position?

I've asked, but I get no response so until he grows a backbone, we will still be guessing?

And, Andy is "this close" to shutting this thread down!
Can't blame him, either.

Good hunting. LB

[ March 04, 2010, 06:37 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on March 04, 2010, 07:07 AM:
 
Just like Geordie said, I'm also "cautiously optimistic" about the future of hunting predators big and small. I don't lie awake at night worrying about what the anti's are up to or the possibility of my kids getting attacked by a coyotes while waiting for the school bus. At this point, making changes like coyote seasons, just so a coyote can be given some kind of status in the eyes of the big game crowd is a step in the wrong direction.

Just the thought of seasons, tag fees, special licenses, scoring charts, skull measurements, etc.. applied to coyotes makes me sick. I just don't understand the need to possibly change something that is pretty damn good just the way it is to help promote the "sport." Gawd, I thought I was the only one who hated that term "sport" applied to coyote hunting...
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 04, 2010, 08:02 AM:
 
Hmm? I didn't know there was a problem with describing predator hunting as sport, versus "control effort"? I mean, if some people think I'm performing a valuable service, that's fine, but for me, it's just recreation, so is there a more politically correct term we should be using? Maybe Cult Guru Higgins can tell us what he wants to call it?

By the way, I also think (like Dave) that we need more coyotes, in some cases. Seasons and bag limits is not a good way to get that way. All you have to do is look at the bobcat situation in CA. It went from unregulated to five per season, upon the purchase of tags, applied for in person at F&G District Headquarters, a distinct (and unnecessary) inconvenience. Also, unjustified. That's what can happen when you petition for elevated status. What kind of dumb shit would want state or federal involvement in protecting the noble coyote?

Hey Rich, feel free to jump in here with corrections, anytime. FYI, he is one of my closest friends and now, regretably, I don't even know him?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on March 04, 2010, 09:00 AM:
 
Leonard, Just some petty bitchin' on my part. I'm sure I've used the term myself. For me, it mostly comes from the internet promoters who are constantly reminding anyone and everyone that we must "promote the sport" "save the sport" "regulate the sport" and "represent the sport."

Hell, after awhile I'm not sure if we are talking about golf or coyote hunting.
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on March 04, 2010, 09:18 AM:
 
Lonny, I think there a a fair number of people who feel the same way about the term 'sport'. I think it is more the people using the term and the implications they imply. As if something needs saving or promoting.

quote:

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... so is there a more politically correct term we should be using?

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quote:

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If there was ever a need for some type management, I feel it would fall under people management as a way of protecting the image of coyote calling and public perception of the same. And, this is where organizing would be helpful, if for no other reason than to police ournown ranks to avoid giving the greenies a foothold.

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Sound like a good reason to shut PM down.

To me a coyote is a varmint, and should be regulated as such. If there comes a time when I see hunting actually affect the population, I may change my mind, but I don't see that happening anytime in the near future. If anything, I am hopeful that the pressure will die down in a few years when people realize it isn't as easy as it looks in the videos.

FWIW I don't think Higgins has stated what he is "for" either.
 

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Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on March 04, 2010, 01:50 PM:
 
Randy Roede wrote:

A question I would have for those units in AZ. with such fawn mortality is, what if the survival rate goes up in the future? Is there a season then in those units, left to be dictated by a magical number? The old foot in the door concept.

Sometimes the agenda of a season or a regulation is hidden in its conception and revealed later on when it is to late. It takes much less time to make a regulation than to change one!

Randy there is no season on coyotes in those units now,why would they put one in place later.
There is no season on coyotes anywhere in az.
I for one do not hunt coyotes druing dennig
But after hearing our furbearer biologist give his presentation on fawn mortality among the antelope in those units I plan to hunt up north both to get away from the desert heat and to do what little good we can for the antelope herds in those units,while extending my season. I really dont suspect any hidden agenda
p.s. our furbearer biologist is and avid caller and predator hunter as well.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 04, 2010, 03:07 PM:
 
Be that as it may....I have just got off the phone with "DEEP THROAT".

I know what Higgins wants and what he is doing but won't admit.

Thank god somebody has a set.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on March 04, 2010, 03:37 PM:
 
Can you fill us in Leonard?
 

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Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on March 04, 2010, 03:50 PM:
 

 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 04, 2010, 03:55 PM:
 
Well, basically, in spite of all the carefully constructed denials, what I wrote several days ago is essentially accurate.

And, I guess he probably thought I was "in the know" and just tweaking him? Not the case. I had no clue what the hell he was talking about.

But, his honesty is what might possibly be in question, at this point? He started these three pages calling my source unreliable. My source appears to be more reliable than the Professor?

Good hunting. LB

Dan, you da man!

edit: Oops! can't say any more because Andy is just itching to lock er up!

[ March 04, 2010, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on March 04, 2010, 04:23 PM:
 
Gotta come back at/to Andy a page or so ago.

I was typing short and pissy yesterday - a work injury. Now I'm taking a steroid and they say one of the side effects is irritability....

Andy, you will never hear me bad mouth the Mo. Conservation Dept. They are a model dept that most states could only hope to imitate.

I have been on both sides of an interaction with them - pure professionalism.

Non-residents now have to have a furbearer's license or whatever it is called. Honestly, that could have been the law for years and I operated in ignorance.

Something like $140. Not much, but I have kids, step kids, college educations, an ex-wife (with a good lawyer), girlfriends, vast and varied interests, and a slew of bad habits. That extra $140 or so was kinda the straw that broke the camels back.

We do not need any more licensing, any more seasons, or any more attention.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on March 04, 2010, 04:54 PM:
 
I can be friends with someone and not agree with them. Rich is an example, as are ARShaw and Q who both detest the promotion of calling in any form. If I weren't an international predator calling sex symbol, I likely would never have met either of them. Irony.

Despite Rich's opinion, it's only one and in order for him to pursue a presumed agenda, he has to get the idea past a majority of members of that board. To me, in order for any nomination I make or vote for to pass the smell test, their position, past and present, on coyotes will have to support the concept of managing coyotes without the influence of emotional rhetoric, i.e., cute little puppies.

I've quit hunting recreationally for the year, but I just spent an hour loading the ATV in my truck and going through my gear for another one of my PDM hunts tomorrow morning because I have a pair of black-backed coyotes that have scored two kills on newborn calves in the past week and a half. My goal, free of any emotional investment, is very simple: Kill one or both of the mated pair as soon as I get the chance. Hopefully, the female will present herself and I can kill her and her tummy full of future munchers in one fell swoop, thus removing the onus for the male to continue doing his wet work. If'n I can't get that done before whelping, I'll just have to work on the male and eliminate her meals on wheels. I have no remorse for these two coyotes as they're causing my landowner grief. I won't mourn the loss of the pups knowing that any void killing them might create will quickly be filled by others nearby. Once the situation appears to be handled - such as if I kill one or both tomorrow - I'll put my gear away and do a follow up in a few days to see how things are going. If the owner is still seeing coyotes in the calving pasture, I'll return and do more calling, but I won't be killing coyotes just for the sake of killing coyotes. My "pay" for helping these guys is access to otherwise restricted private property and indiscriminate killing would simply be self-defeating in the long term.

Do I support the concept of regulating hunting with a season during denning time? No. At the same time, I don't support killing coyotes for the sake of just killing. Once they cross the line, they've given us a reason to do what needs to be done.

Do I support the concept of establishing seasons on coyotes for any reason? No. Regulated harvests are a means by which a population is harvested in a controlled manner to reduce populations beneath what their habitat will carry over through the winter and to ensure that enough breeding stock survives to sustain ongoing yields. Because of the coyote's inherent ability to reproduce in response to weak or excessive harvest pressures and to fill the void created, I don't ever foresee any action taken to prevent such an extreme kill that the population will not recover.

Having said that, and referring back to the remarks I made about people management during my lunch today, I very much hope that we can avoid ever having to deal with "people management" as it applies to coyote management because, frankly, we're likely to lose that fight. The reasons for trapping make all the sense in the world to us, but look at the hits trappers take when scrutinized by an ignorant public. Sadly, any wildlife biologist will tel you that managing wildlife resources in today's world is 60%+ managing people, and the remainder managing the actual resource. It's a damned shame that this is what we've come to because the resource should ALWAYS be our primary concern regardless of petty emotional responses to non-natural mortality, i.e., hunting, trapping. I just am concerned that if we don't manage our own affairs, others will manage them for us. For now, I say we aggressively maintain the "mind your own business" stance, but prepare in advance to identify our fallback positions and expectations/ needs should we ever find ourselves defending what is, to us, not indefensible.

That's the nuts and bolts of where I stand on the entire issue. didn't have time to really get into it earlier, so I just added some to my earlier remarks. It simply isn't as simple to me as black and white. The issue is somewhat complex, as should be the response. Because of that, I think the worst position to take is one of all or none to one side. Realistically expect that down the line each of us may face compromises and know now what we expect, need and want.
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on March 04, 2010, 05:08 PM:
 
Hey Lb, This is Tyler. I have to ask, whats your problem with my dad? I have never heard him say anything bad about you. And what do you mean you know what my dad wants but he's not willing to admit it, I asked him what he want's and he said a Ruger number 1.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on March 04, 2010, 05:43 PM:
 
Leonard's giving away guns?!? Sign me up.
And Tyler, we need to talk.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 04, 2010, 06:04 PM:
 
An interesting situation, why do they call it a sport? Let's see, we have been known as sportsmen for decades, jumping ducks is giving them a sporting chance.

Non sportsmanlike is used mostly for football but have you ever heard of a football or basketball player called a sportsman? Even bull riders are called athletes not sportsmen.

But I still think of a game when I hear sport.

And not a single person has given the official position of AJ or Skippy.
 

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Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on March 04, 2010, 06:19 PM:
 
Last warning, I cant take much more. Next person who claims we are not athletes and Im lockin this thread.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on March 04, 2010, 06:21 PM:
 

quote:

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Despite Rich's opinion, it's only one and in order for him to pursue a presumed agenda, he has to get the idea past a majority of members of that board

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Cdog, the term "agenda" was used by me in my post. I meant nothing derogatory in its use, and it was (and still is) the best word I can think of for the issue.

If we can put our heads together and come up with a more appropriate, less offensive term I am all for it.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on March 04, 2010, 06:45 PM:
 
You may have used it, but others have certainly inferred it, and hasn't this entire thread been based upon what one person felt someone else inferred? I'm not offended by it, and I guess that when others accuse Rich of some diabolically evil plan, "agenda" fits.

Whose "numbnuts"?
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on March 04, 2010, 07:05 PM:
 
Is bowling a sport?

Is a stunt dick in the porno industry an athlete?

These discussions run too deep for me. I'm just a coyote hunter.

- DAA
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 04, 2010, 07:14 PM:
 
I have a couple issues, Tyler. I think it's between me and him though? Aside from that, let me wave the "he started it" card.

Okay, okay. I'm a little peeved with the predator professionals forums created behind my back, me being the last to know. I thought that was rude and discourtious.

And, if I had a Ruger #1, I'd give it to him.

Good hunting. LB

edit: Hey Dave, what do you know about the porn industry? You seem like such a clean cut young man?

Listen, if "Curling" is an Olympic "SPORT" well, that opens up a lot of territory.

[ March 04, 2010, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on March 04, 2010, 07:38 PM:
 
OK OK.....what about 'Sportin' girls'? I hear they can be athletic!
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on March 05, 2010, 02:59 AM:
 

quote:

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Whose "numbnuts"?

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Don't know for sure I didn't use that one!
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on March 05, 2010, 06:49 AM:
 
" I have a couple issues, Tyler. I think it's between me and him though? Aside from that, let me wave the "he started it" card."

Did not. Did not. You started it. I submitted a post in support of Scott Francom listing his virtues just as I did for you at PredatorMonster and you did for me at Oklahoma Predator Hunters because that's what friends do (even if those friends are putz', kinda like all three of us) and you suspended my posting privileges.

"Okay, okay. I'm a little peeved with the predator professionals forums created behind my back, me being the last to know. I thought that was rude and discourtious."

You misspelled discourteous.
I didn't create it behind your back. I tried to post on Huntmasters and got the surprising "YOUR POSTING PRIVILEGES HAVE BEEN SUSPENDED" message so Dan, Scott and I created it right in front of you and everyone else.

"And, if I had a Ruger #1, I'd give it to him."

And because you're my friend I would take it.

edit: tried to clean up the "bold" feature.

[ March 05, 2010, 06:52 AM: Message edited by: Rich Higgins ]
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on March 05, 2010, 07:00 AM:
 
OK let's kick the rest of this crap to the curb.
First, this is still America and the accused has the right to confront his accuser even if it is a kangaroo court (or a lynching).
So to quote you... "Grow a pair" (or even just a pair between the two of you) and let me know who your "Deep Throat" is.
 

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Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on March 05, 2010, 07:44 AM:
 
I've been a member of Phoenix Varmint Callers Inc.(PVCI), for over 15 years now. There has been several times I've called the club PCVI(Politically Correct Varminters Inc) because they look at themselves as being better than other callers just because they do not condone the use of ecallers. They consider calling predators to be an art form.

The problem I have with limiting our tools, limiting our season, or limiting anything in our arsenal against the coyote is this: You lose the argument that we need to do this for the primary purpose of game management. I got into this sport because I was tired of not getting drawn for Antelope, and I wanted to do something about it. How can you argue that contest hunts should be banned, ecallers need to be banned, night hunting needs to be against the law, and a season needs to be installed to allow the coyote a chance to really propagate, and then from the same source you hear we need to be allowed to do this for the purpose of game management.

The best excuse we have to hunt coyotes is the argument that it is good from a scientific game management perspective. D Carey said "an animal that has a street value of $5." is absolutely the truth as far as the fur value of desert coyotes. No member of the general public is going to vote to allow us to kill coyotes because we can make a meager 5 bucks off the fur. But you put the data up there that this critter is responsible for 95% of the antelope fawn deaths, you have a very powerful argument that we should be allowed to kill something that isn't edible. If this ever becomes a voter issue, I don't want to see a sound bite from the President of PVCI or any other club stating we need to have a season on coyotes because it is hypocritical, plain and simple.

Rich: you can have any opinion you wish. It is a free country. Just don't give the anti's any rocks they can use to throw at us. Also, I'm not deep throat. As you know I seldom get involved with the club so I don't even know what is going on most of the time.

One problem with Arizona is the voter referendum issue. It takes a 66% majority in both houses to change Arizona’s constitution. Thru voter referendum, it only takes a simple majority to change the state’s constitution. This is the reason why the anti’s were successful at targeting Az on the issue of trapping on public lands. We unsuccessfully attempted to get a referendum passed that would require a 66% super majority of votes involving any wildlife issues with the argument that we should allow the experts at G&F to call the shots on game management. As I said at the beginning of the previous sentence, we were unsuccessful.

[ March 05, 2010, 07:47 AM: Message edited by: Aznative ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 05, 2010, 08:13 AM:
 
You really think that's relevent? I asked him and he wasn't afraid of attribution, but the fact is, it could damage your relationship so I don't want to say.

You know, I sometimes go overboard with my unconventional "humor" and it was a mistake to tease you my suspending your posting privilages for a few hours over your support of that little prick, Scott. But, what it revealed was such a surprise to me, the hostility. No email, no phone call to a close friend, just a statement that it didn't matter if it was fooling around or temporary, that as far as you were concerned, it was permanent. I'm paraphrasing your remarks on the monster board. Of course, by then, and ever since, your posting privilages had been restored. By the way, I'm sorry to have misspelled a word; it happens occasionally, in haste. Mea coppa.

So, you made zero attempt at clarification. I was, and still am completely shocked at your attitude. Tyler thinks I have something against you and that may be true, but it has been subsequent to your taking sides in the Loony Tunes situation, which I feel was out of line, & none of your business. But, that didn't do it; it was your reaction to the suspension. I realized that we had a huge problem, at that point and only at that point. So, rather than what Tyler charges, I have nothing against you and never have. I feel that it is Higgins pissed off and LB, feeling hurt. (which I will have to get over, as best I can)

So, maybe you should address the question, man up and admit your beliefs.

I HAVE ALWAYS HONORED DENNING SEASON, BUT I AM UNWILLING TO TRUST IN ANY AGENCY, INFRINGING ON MY ACTIVITIES; ONE OF THE VERY FEW WE HAVE LEFT THAT IS UNREGULATED. A VESTAGE OF FREEDOM THAT I CHERISH AND APPRECIATE. TO ME, IT'S A BIG DEAL. WHY FUCK IT UP?

If Deepthroat wants to come forward, that's his decision. But, you have always been a very astute observer? You generally see through disguises long before it occurs to me.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on March 05, 2010, 08:45 AM:
 
You misspelled privileges and vestige (humor arf arf... Mork)
Leonard, I didn't know the suspension was an attempt at humor, I thought you were angry because I posted a list of Scott's virtues in reply to the obscene names he was being called. I did not side against you, I did not mention you, I simply supported a friend just as I had supported you and you had supported me.
The phone lines run both directions. You could have called me since you initiated the action, the joke.
Debbie has scolded me a half dozen times since this came down.
"The two of you act like a couple of teenage boys, you've been friends too long to let something silly end it. Just call Leonard."
"But he started it. He should call me."
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on March 05, 2010, 08:51 AM:
 
DEEP THROAT is a "he"?!?!

Eeewwwwwwwwwwww!!!!!!!!!!
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 05, 2010, 09:03 AM:
 
Lance, I thought long and hard...wait, that doesn't sound right/I considered writing he/she but felt that it would unnecessarily complicate things. Besides, I was told that the first thing he/she would do is deny being deepthroat.

I need to ponder a few things.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on March 05, 2010, 09:23 AM:
 
I hope one of you two makes the phone call... doesn't matter which one.

Now "Deepthroat" is a he/she? I'm thinking that might be worse! LOL

Nikonut
 

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Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on March 05, 2010, 02:08 PM:
 
"Carey told me at the campout that the first thing he does is lie"
Yes, that's to get your attention. Some people are so friggin stupid they will believe anything.

OK what is the second thing?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 05, 2010, 02:39 PM:
 
That's an odd way of "getting my attention"?

Friday afternoon:
You said you were 77 years old. Okay.

Saturday afternoon:
You casually mentioned that your mother was 87 years old!

Even I can process that information. When I mentioned the discrepancy, you offered by way of explanation, that you were actually 67 and that you always lie at first. I accept that as one minor quirk in an elderly gentleman. But, good to know.

So, that was just a device to "get my attention" right?

Good hunting. LB

BTW, do you deny being DEEP THROAT?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 05, 2010, 03:08 PM:
 
Also, Dan. We had a short discusion about Huntmasters and my brand of humor, I am frequently guilty of tongue in cheek.

Your reply was that Higgins told you: "HE JUST 'THINKS' HE'S FUNNY".

That told me that he has no appreciation of my antics, so I can see where the problem begain. Higgins has no sense of humor. No wonder he went ballistic when I suspended his posting privilages over Loony Tunes.

And, by the way, Higgins. You say that you rushed to the defense of Scotty, but where were you when he was calling me a self serving cunt, on Monster? The only support I can remember was from Vic and Geordie.

Whatever. I never ask my friends to choose between me and anybody else. You decided where your sympathies lay, unprompted. And, thus far, you have not accepted any responsibility for anything.

Good hunting. LB

[ March 05, 2010, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on March 05, 2010, 04:22 PM:
 

quote:

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And, by the way, Higgins. You say that you rushed to the defense of Scotty, but where were you when he was calling me a self serving cunt, on Monster? The only support I can remember was from Vic and Geordie.

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quote:

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No wonder he went ballistic when I suspended his posting privilages over Loony Tunes.

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I simply ignored you. Perhaps you should check the definition of 'Ballistic'
You misspelled privilege again.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 05, 2010, 06:34 PM:
 
Okay, I get it.
 

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Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on March 06, 2010, 05:45 AM:
 
Ok, Im even closer than this close to lockin this thread.

If you old coots dont make up and somebody dont recognize us for the athletes we are and 4949 dont acknowlege that Im one of his favorite people on here since he told Lance that, Im lockin this thread.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on March 06, 2010, 06:25 AM:
 
Heck Andy I am just paranoid about misspelling "privilege."

Edited for spelling.

[ March 06, 2010, 06:27 AM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on March 06, 2010, 06:29 AM:
 
You misspelled paranoid.
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on March 06, 2010, 06:44 AM:
 
NO.... you don't get it and that's because you're a hardheaded asshole. You're also my friend so pick up the phone when I call you this afternoon.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 06, 2010, 07:08 AM:
 
If you're going to sweet talk me like that, I can't wait.
 

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Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on March 06, 2010, 07:44 AM:
 
Higgy

Don't call him, he'll just be mean to you.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on March 06, 2010, 07:52 AM:
 

quote:

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You misspelled paranoid

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The word I misspelled was "misspelling."

I had used one "s" instead of two.

But thanks for your help.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 06, 2010, 08:37 AM:
 
I will be mean to him?

Dan, I'm beginning to think that you didn't lie about being 77?

I want my lawyer involved. How do you set up a conference call?
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 06, 2010, 01:21 PM:
 
"Dan, I'm beginning to think that you didn't lie about being 77?"
-----------------------
Yep, he lied. He is actually 78 I think.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 06, 2010, 02:08 PM:
 
Yeah, at the campout, he had this 39 foot luxury trailer and out of respect for his age, we all kept the noise down to a hush until 9:30 or so, which is when he usually rolled out, fresh as a daisy.

Nobody camps like Dan, he even offered a shower to Kelly, but not me, of course. Hmm? I arrived before him and left after he did, but camping is camping; and I survived.

Well, time for my nap.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on March 06, 2010, 07:18 PM:
 
that shower was kick ASS. Thx again Dan.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 06, 2010, 07:45 PM:
 
I bet it was? That's what friends are for.
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on March 06, 2010, 08:22 PM:
 
LB - the year before Les let me take a shower.
That was the year of the dirt storm. It was even more kick ASS....lol
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 06, 2010, 09:25 PM:
 
UPDATE: Okay, we got everything squared away, he apologized for being such a dick and I accepted it. As the sun sets, peace returns to Beaver Valley. LB

edit: Dirt storm? Wonder where I was? Was that the year that Loony Tunes drove over a spike strip?

[ March 06, 2010, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on March 07, 2010, 07:37 AM:
 
Paul, days and pages behind on this,

If I understood it correctly, no season would be proposed where the fawn mortality was high.

A season would be proposed in all other areas.

What if the fawn survial rate increases because of increased harvest because of this being the only areas open to hunt and survival rate increases. I assume like you these areas are going to see an increase in hunting pressure and harvest?

Then would there be a closed season everywhere?? For a specific time?

I am curious on what is the voting public feelings. From what I hear from the snowbirds we have there, the urban coyote population and the problems associated with that, would it have enough support?

One story of Fee Fee getting snatched up screaming into the night and it can change an outlook on the subject.

Individual hunters beliefs to or not to hunt during the denning season and education there of seems a much better self regulating idea. The news of the areas effected from coyote to deer and antelope depredation areas and there again education that more of a harvest is needed there without imposing seasons sounds a bit more friendly.

Seems no doubt that recreational callers or calling clubs would for sure like to see a season. The what ifs are then what problems could a season in other areas create, increased populations in those areas, will that create other problems? These so called closed areas during pup rearing times allowing for higher survial rates of the pups spilling over into urban areas and these fawn rearing grounds. It won't take long for coyotes to figure out the closed areas if they are anywhere near the open areas. Maybe there will be no ill effects I'm just bored typin before i try and go untangle about 2000' feet of cable i pulled up yesterday.

Only my opinions from a 1000 mles away.

Enough about men in showers in remote areas.

To all spell checkers I am sorry now and hence forward!!!!

Higgins, one son gone from UTI and never made it down have my youngest there now at the Golf version of the same school, may be planning a trip down in April??
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 07, 2010, 09:11 AM:
 

quote:

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Enough about men in showers in remote areas. RR

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quote:

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Seems no doubt that recreational callers or calling clubs would for sure like to see a season. RR

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quote:

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...if there were half a dozen or so coyotes(male releasing a female would be counter productive) running around in the problem areas with tags in their ears worth $2,000 each from X to Y dates?

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That would scare the crap out of me...

I've seen guys get stupid and irresonsible just trying to win a contest around here. It's one of the reasons I hold such a dim view on contest hunts in general. It gets guys that would not ordinarily be out hunting coyotes at all, not only out hunting them, but being complete outlaw, jackass, morons while out hunting them. It may be a small minority, but some of those guys do drugs to stay awake driving all day and all night, night hunt where it isn't legal, trespass on private property, hunt within city limits, etc., etc., etc. All to try and win some stupid ass contest hunt.

And then you have all the beer swilling, sign shooting, night riders out in Tooele county when they thought they were going to make a few bucks on $20 ears.

I would truly hate to see the kinds of behavior and acts of wanton lawlessness and pure idiocy that the chance at a "Golden Coyote" would bring out. Holy crap... The media would have so much material to work with being shoveled into their laps they would not know what to do with it.

And on top of all that, I personally doubt that all of the extra pressure would do much, if anything at all to curb depredation. Utah gets called pretty hard already. I'm sure the annual kill would be increased somewhat by putting the chance for a big money coyote out there, but I personally doubt it would make that much difference. It would not get the hard cores calling any harder, they're all hunting as much and as hard as they can already. Unleashing a bunch of idiots on the public ground would actually reduce the numbers killed by guys like me. I'm sure I would not be alone in avoiding like the plague the areas where the ear tagged Golden Coyotes were thought to be.

And, as you know probably better than I do, stopping damage usually means killing a particular coyote or pair of coyotes. Killing a bunch of coyots in general, probably isn't going to help.

Sorry... No offense buddy, but I think that's a baaaaad idea...

Honestly, here in Utah, I see no reason to change anything.

- DAA
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on March 07, 2010, 11:39 AM:
 
Naw LB, I come to the campout to see everybody and hunt some.
Heck if I just wanted to hunt I would stay home.

Gather one of these yesterday evening and five more before noon this morning before I got rained out.

Good Hunting and stay after them
Kelly

PS four out of these six were shot running, they would not stop or check for shit.



[ March 07, 2010, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: Kelly Jackson ]
 

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Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on March 07, 2010, 01:31 PM:
 
Don’t worry Dave no offense taken. If I post something about coyotes I fully expect and APPRECIATE the holes in my thought process being pointed out. I have seen exactly what you are talking about, maybe not to the degree that you have seen though. I have just been trying to read between the lines is all, maybe not enough, maybe too much.
 

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Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on March 07, 2010, 03:53 PM:
 
Dang Kelly, leave a little for seed man!!!

Nice shooting!!! I missed a runner Saturday! - very frustrating missing coyotes, especially on one of my favorite ranches to hunt. This ranch has always produced great but I've killed 90% (who knows exactly) of what I've called there. Its probably purely superstitious, but I don't mind missing nearly as bad in an area I rarely hunt compared to a ranch I really like. I feel like misses really wreck a great area for the future.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 07, 2010, 04:47 PM:
 


[ March 28, 2010, 10:02 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on March 07, 2010, 04:55 PM:
 
So, how many miles did you put on your truck tryin to find the golden yote? Sounds right up your alley. LMAO

BTW, Jimmy Johnson was named athlete of the year last year for driving a car. Im out there quickly but stealthily getting to my stands, where I sit. Im fist pumpin and endzone dancin after a kill that would rival any NFL celebration. I think next year a coyote hunter, such as Kelly, should be nominated for athlete of the year. I know we are athletes in our sport. No one can deny that!
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 07, 2010, 05:34 PM:
 


[ March 28, 2010, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 07, 2010, 11:55 PM:
 
NOTICE: It has just come to my attention that it was NOT Higgins that called yesterday! Damn, is that embarassing! Well, at least my son is sorry for being a dick and not paying me that 24 grand he owes me.

I have no idea what happened to Rich? I might have doubled up on my meds, not sure? I guess the joke's on me? haha

Good hunting. LB

PS, I have always said, those Utah guys are scary when they get into Nevada!
 

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Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on March 08, 2010, 07:19 AM:
 
Way to go Kelly, some can call them and some can't. Some just wish they could.
 

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Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on March 08, 2010, 07:36 AM:
 
Hey Kelly. Great pictures, good work. Looks like you have those dogs and the CS-24 working good. Kudos to you, sir.
 

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Posted by ninthinning (Member # 900) on March 08, 2010, 10:34 AM:
 
There is a lot of good thought in this discussion. Here in New York we have a coyote season. The season allows the young to get smart and survive. I grew up in Colorado and when I got to NY I thought a season was foolish. All my life I had thought of coyotes as vermin to be killed on sight. Here in NY they are game animals with the same status as deer and beavers. I am convinced that a season on coyotes in the East is a good thing.
9th

Rich, I am hoping to get that Higgy call sooner rather than later.
9th
 

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Posted by ninthinning (Member # 900) on March 08, 2010, 10:41 AM:
 
Denies being deep throat???? I admit to being a gunsmith and that is it!!!!
Leonard,
Nice site. every time I post my concept of global ???? on the web I get kicked. Except here and 5.7.com. You are a good man in my book. For not censoring the "truth".
9th
 

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Posted by SURESHOT (Member # 1122) on March 09, 2010, 11:15 AM:
 
I do not think that you can assume that statement has merit? In fact, taken to a vote, the only club that might be in favor would be the one where my buddy is the current president?

lenard in reference to your statement about PVCI going to a mandated seasonal hunting of coyotes or supporting a regulated season, it will not happen. Our club members hunt with their own ethical standards. Our club stops our contest hunts in March and start back in Sept. There are a few members that assist Game and Fish during birthing times for Antelope and Deer. Please don't start assuming that our club supports seasons on Coyotes. I personally stop hunting coyotes all summer so that areas that I hunt can replentish with more coyotes. I rarely hunt in the same area more than once a year. Other young novices etc. hunt year round and thats their business. I like to see coyotes given a break. The rancher that looses calves wants to kill them year round and yank pups out of their den. That is totally their business. Thanks for your time, Bob B , Hunt Chairman PVCI ps: It doesnt sound like your buddy is really your buddy.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 09, 2010, 01:04 PM:
 
Yes, Bob B, that has been made abundantly clear to me, as well. And, in the first place, I was only speculating, since "my buddy" obviously feels the need for some sort of protection for the coyote, although he can't seem to admit it in public? I thought he was the President, but apparently, he isn't; my bad. I assume, if he were, he might possibly attempt to influence the membership, but that there is just a guess?

And, I don't really care, one way or the other what that club does. It so happens that my personal attitude is that I honor the denning season, but I do no advocating for anyone else, or any group or organization. I am against handing that decision over to any agency where they would mandate seasons and probably bag limits if someone in authority believes it to be justified. That's a slippery slope, and I would never go there and would hope that most (if not all) predator hunters feel the same way?

My intention was/is not to berate or accuse your club or any club for any policy currently in force, that I am aware of? Should the situation change, advocating seasons or methods or bag limits, I reserve the right to express an opinion.

Good hunting. LB

edit:

quote:

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In fact, taken to a vote, the only club that might be in favor .....

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note word in bold

[ March 09, 2010, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 09, 2010, 05:24 PM:
 
Hey Leonard,

I wouldn't be to afraid of some of us Utah guys hunting coyotes out in Nevada,we're pretty harmless. lol

Good Hunting Chad

[ March 09, 2010, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
 

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Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on March 09, 2010, 05:55 PM:
 
I was going to recommend Leonard come to visit when we start shooting at deer with rifles if he wanted to see scary.

PS, speaking of Nevada my packman card didn’t work at the gate last time I was there, I thought I was behaving myself?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 10, 2010, 08:03 PM:
 
I'm starting to get concerned about Rich. He could be laying in a ditch somewhere? So, I called 911 and organized a search party. They will find him.


 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on March 11, 2010, 07:05 AM:
 
That is just 'wrong' on sooooo many different levels.
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on March 11, 2010, 08:34 AM:
 
OK, now THAT is funny.
 

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Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on March 11, 2010, 08:54 AM:
 
Not to worry about Rich, he is up in the frozen north making calls and how did they get his drawers?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 11, 2010, 09:12 AM:
 
Making calls? Who's he calling, his Congressman? North? What north? Don't worry about how we obtained his drawers. Just believe, it weren't easy.

Oh, all right, all right! Full disclosure. After that tickle fight, we found them in your glove box!

Good hunting. LB

edit: damn, I crack myself up!

[ March 11, 2010, 09:14 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on March 11, 2010, 10:13 AM:
 
Who said you're not funny? I think you are a hoot.



[ March 11, 2010, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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