The New Huntmastersbbs!: Seasonal Protection for the Coyote

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 30, 2011, 01:39 PM:

Seasonal Protection for the Coyote

I’ll try to tie this up and finally put it to rest.
Each spring the subject of hunting coyotes during denning season arises on the boards and is the source of much entertainment.
They usually began with an innocent question or comment about calling when puppies are in the den. Some responded pro ,more responded nay. As the threads progressed and escalated in emotional content they would become personal and sometimes abusive.
Inevitably, some uncaring or unknowing person would post hero shots posing with puppies blown up like a prairie dog and really fan the flames.
Vic Carlson, Cal Taylor and I would participate in these flame wars and we became very good at pointing out the lack of logic and morality in some of the most abusive and emotional posts. We did not make many friends doing so.
To be clear, I do not understand how anyone can shoot puppies for fun. I do not understand how anyone can feel good about the hunt or themselves after killing nursing female coyotes knowing the suffering they just orchestrated..
After such statements it is inevitable that someone would call me Disney Delusional or some such that diverts attention from the real issue of basic decency.
It is my belief that granting coyotes a 3 or 4 month break from the pressure applied to them by callers during denning and pup rearing will benefit us greatly, especially near urban areas that unleash armies of callers each year, by gifting us with larger populations of coyotes with higher security levels than the previous spring.
Many callers agree with the preceding until the issue of hunting seasons for coyotes arises.
My position as an Az resident is that it would be more beneficial for callers than detrimental for the reasons I cited in the preceding paragraph.
Lions, bear, fox, bobcat, badger, raccoon, ringtails, and coati-mundi all are provided protection without any of the chickenlittle scenarios feared by most opponents of a season for the coyote. Naturally, and very importantly, depredation permits must be granted on demand for offending coyotes without red tape or delay.
I just do not buy the argument that providing a season on coyotes will erode our freedoms as many opponents proclaim. Every other animal in Az., with the exception of invasive species, has been provided that protection without robbing us of our rights and freedoms.
But those are only my opinions and personal beliefs and I have never made any effort to have a season enacted anywhere at any time. To each his own.

Alas, in the heat of a debate with a particularly obstreperous and unpleasant individual, who’s posts seemed to question my parentage and my right to breathe his air, I was told that my beliefs were anti American and anti all that was good and pure.
The blithering idiot annoyed me and in yanking his chain I made the major mistake of stating something that was not true just to piss him off.
I stated that I not only believed in the necessity of a season but that I would campaign tirelessly for one. Major mistake. That has followed me for years and bit me in the ass on several occasions.
Most notably Brent Rueb canceled my seminar at the World Event a couple of years ago when provided that info by a couple of my admirers.
Jay Nistetter sent two letters to the Board of Directors and to the general membership of PVCI in an attempt to have me impeached as president of PVCI before I even took office.
And my friend Leonard Bosinski raked me over the coals here:
http://www.huntmastersbbs.com/cgi/cgi-ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002314;p=1

Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on May 30, 2011, 02:21 PM:

well Rich. for what it worth?? i would appose a season on coyotes. i believe they are way to adaptable for anyone but the "Best of the Best" to control. up untill last year i considered myself a medicore coyote hunter. i spent some time with an A.D.C. guy for a few days during denning season an that REALLY opened my mind to how coyotes re-act. i learned a great deal in a small amount of time. after i got home i went out denning myself to further what i learned. i chose areas that had a shit-load of coyotes and knew many ranchers in the areas. they we're very happy to allow me in and try. i struggled abit at first but got more proficient as the summer went on. long story short, i took 8 LONG trips last spring/summer and feal i learned more about coyotes in that time than all my year combined. last years fur season i shot more coyotes than i EVER dreamed was possible and i believe it was from the summer training. yes, i did take some pups on request from the ranchers but no, i got no thrill out of it other than knowing i was helping out with a population problem. i would absolutely love to be out on the prairie right now but with the new cabin and gas $$'s i will most likely skip this Year.

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 30, 2011, 02:30 PM:

Bearhunter,
I tried to make clear that my beliefs concerned AZ coyotes.
As I stated "offending coyotes must be removed".
That includes overpopulated areas, ranches in any state with a predation problem, any area with coyote problems any time of year.

That is my opinion and belief only and I will not debate it with you or anyone else.
The purpose of the threads I am posting this weekend is to clear up old misunderstandings.

Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on May 30, 2011, 02:48 PM:

quote:
Vic Carlson, Cal Taylor and I would participate in these flame wars and we became very good at pointing out the lack of logic and morality in some of the most abusive and emotional posts. We did not make many friends doing so.

I think you made more friends than you think doing that Rich... many believe as you do that decency is also part of ethical hunting practises. Anything less is just bloodlust and killing.

I do have my personal thoughts on regulation given my home states reputation for irrational legalities and you have clearly stated you do not wish to, and will not debate this here.

I hope others will agree with you as do I!

Nikonut

Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on May 30, 2011, 02:54 PM:

sorry Rich. i should have read your post better.

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 30, 2011, 03:35 PM:

Bear you mentioned you did youre denning out west.. If you did it at home what do you think hunting wouldbe like the following year and year after?? Do you think youre numbers would stay the same or drop? Say the numbers do take a drop, how much fun would hunting be then???

As a fur harvester I like to see good numbers every year, makes hunting and calling that much more fun and educational and it puts a little more coin in the pocket to help pay for gas or ammo...

A few years ago the fur prices for the coyotes in the area I do most of my calling reached a 45.00 avr., now if I would of been out there denning dureing the summer my winter fur check is'nt going to be very big is it now????

A female coyote has roughly 6-8 pups and say 5 of them make it to winter that still leaves some good money to be had vrs. none at all..

Since you are a contest hunter would'nt it also be wise to leave them till a contest comes up?? increase youre chances of winning don't you think!!
As for recreational control work just killing the coyotes that are there is not going to make the problem go away if you don't kill the ones doing the killing to begin with also by mid summer the cows and calves can takecare of themselves so all you are doing is lessoning youre chances to some high kill numbers when the fur is worth something or a contest is going on.. Later...

Posted by George Ackley (Member # 898) on May 30, 2011, 03:35 PM:

i dont shoot pups but,
you said ethical hunting practises [Frown]

your ethical hunting practices are yours, if they ant braking the law keep you ethics to your self.
the predator hunting threads aren't there so we can all here your ethics they are here for hunting and if somone is hunting legally then you shouldn't have anything to say. don't reply to them. start your own ethics thread in the proper area and tell us your ethics don't push them on people taken part in a legal hunt ,
just not right!

there is no one in the predator community I admire more then Rich Higgins!
but I have always thought he was stepping across the line in the threads about shooting wets and pups , i don't do it for the same reason as him but that's me i and telling someone ells they shouldn't do it if its legal in there area

[ May 30, 2011, 03:39 PM: Message edited by: George Ackley ]

Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on May 30, 2011, 03:47 PM:

George, if that was pointed at me... you are right.

If it's legal than it's a personal choice. I would never deny tha right of anyone to hunt as they wish if it's legal in their state or area.

Almost every law that is against hunting is usually caused as a reaction to unethical hunting practises... think about it.

I hold myself to a higher standard and only wish more would. To me an unethical hunter is nothing more than a bloodthisty killer and not someone I would care to associate with in the field or in life.

Nikonut

Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on May 30, 2011, 03:49 PM:

Quote from Higgins,
Vic Carlson, Cal Taylor and I would participate in these flame wars and we became very good at pointing out the lack of logic and morality in some of the most abusive and emotional posts. We did not make many friends doing so.
*************************************************
As Niko indicated, you, Vic and Cal, might be surprised..

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 30, 2011, 03:50 PM:

4949 its just like the unwritten code you have with other cops... Its all about honor and respect for the game you hunt and as being a hunter, some states have a season on bucks and does which makes it legal but yet there is still a group of hunters that will not shoot a doe or shoot a female bear with cubs along side, why should wet bitches and pups be any different????

I know some guys that don't like deer or deer hunting, maybe there should be a spring season for them to shoot deer and just take a few pic.s and leave them lay..

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 30, 2011, 04:05 PM:

"I hold myself to a higher standard and only wish more would. To me an unethical hunter is nothing more than a bloodthisty killer and not someone I would care to associate with in the field or in life."
-------------------------------
Nickle nut,
Maybe you are making more enemies than you think. I hope that this thread stays here where all can see who the anti's are. I don't think that the ADC men spare any wet bitches when shooting coyotes from airplanes or helicopters, so I guess according to you and Higgins, those guys are just blood thirsty killers? Get real!

Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on May 30, 2011, 04:10 PM:

Tim. where i live i have very poor coyote hunting. i also want them ALL gone. i want red fox back here. as to contest, i feel thats why i did quite well this past tournament season is because i spent time out the in the summer and knew (learnt) the areas well. i would say my average days this past winter was seing 20-25 a day so i don't think i damaged them to much last summer.

Posted by George Ackley (Member # 898) on May 30, 2011, 04:12 PM:

niko,
no enemies pal, and sorry it looks that way
it wasn't pointed at you directly.
in fact I was working on my reply about Rich H and when I cam back to post thats is when i seen you posted already, so i cut my reply short just to say what I thought.

I dont have the same felling about this as mr cronk. i dont think anyone should be shooting wets and pups.

[ May 30, 2011, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: George Ackley ]

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 30, 2011, 04:30 PM:

Cronk is still unable to differentiate between the killing of puppies for fun by recreational callers and the killing of puppies in the line of duty by professional ADC or anyone who assumes that role on a legitimate depredation job.
I do not know a single one of those guys that enjoy that part of the job.

Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on May 30, 2011, 04:36 PM:

The only reason there is to date not a season/bag limit on coyotes is, the mad dog crazed blood lust killers are so inept they are not a threat to the coyotes existence. Anyone that would kill a puppy would also eat shit.

Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on May 30, 2011, 04:38 PM:

Rich C, I don't know about Iowa, but here they don't aerial gun during the denning season. I'm no adc man, but it would seem to me that doing so during the denning season would be a wasted asset. In other words, that time frame would be better suited to a set of dogs used specifically for that purpose. Recreational calling and ADC are two totally different things.

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 30, 2011, 04:45 PM:

quote:
Maybe you are making more enemies than you think. I hope that this thread stays here where all can see who the anti's are. I don't think that the ADC men spare any wet bitches when shooting coyotes from airplanes or helicopters, so I guess according to you and Higgins, those guys are just blood thirsty killers?

Just because Niko and a few others don't agree with killing wet bitches and pups dose'nt make them a anti, they still enjoy hunting them as the next, just don't agree on the time of year its done..
The ADC trappers are doing control work that has to be done,wanna be ADC callers are not going to be there 24/7 to get the job done the way it should be.
Speaking of Anti's what really burns there ass and also gives us as hunters a bad name is the ones that do choose to hunt year round and then post there hero shots with a handfull of pups scattered on the ground.. Cleavor Gary was good for that and one of the reasons I dislike the man.. Sure Anti's want to do away with most if not all hunting but you also need to realize alot of people don't mind a few dead coyotes but when the anti's start flashing the dead pup and wet bitch pic.s that they find laying around on varis sites this really plays on a persons emotions and can sway them to there way of thinking...
I don't always agree with Niko but will hang with him on this one..

Edit to add.
Coyotes shouldbe controlled where it needs to be done and should be managed where they don't have to be controlled.

[ May 30, 2011, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]

Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on May 30, 2011, 04:52 PM:

"Cleavor Gary was good for that and one of the reasons I dislike the man.."

You dislike him because he is a coyote killing machine and you wouldn't make a pimple on his ass.

You misspelled clever, you know as in mentally quick and resourceful, which you are also not.

Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on May 30, 2011, 04:56 PM:

Dan. never eaten shat but have taken a few pups.
i'm glad i did it but not glad i did it if that makes sense???

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 30, 2011, 04:56 PM:

quote:
Cleavor Gary was good for that and one of the reasons I dislike the man..

Tim, do you have reason to believe that that you can share?

Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on May 30, 2011, 04:59 PM:

It's a tough issue. [Smile]

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 30, 2011, 05:00 PM:

quote:
You dislike him because he is a coyote killing machine and you wouldn't make a pimple on his ass.

If killing pups makes him a coyote killing machine then i guess I'm not..

Send his killing machine ass up to one of the sheep producers ranches in Wyoming and lets see how well he does. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 30, 2011, 05:04 PM:

Rich. If you ask Gary I'm sure he still has the pic.s from his trip to Utah that he posted on a handfull of sites.. I think (lost boys)and a few others know which ones I'm talking about..

Edit to add: thats just part of the reason I dislike him, the rest has to do with the shit he pulled at one of the camp-outs...

[ May 30, 2011, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]

Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on May 30, 2011, 06:23 PM:

Tim, I do not know what pics you are talking about, and I will ask you politely to not speak for me.

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 30, 2011, 06:24 PM:

Always a hot topic...

As one who went and made 3 stands today, it's also about respect to the landowner. I told the guy who lost the foal, I thought it was still born due to what Cal, Cdog and others said about the birth sack. He wants em killed regardless.

Same as for the other rancher, he wants em gone.

Now I have other places to hunt but I don't, I actually side with the "let em raise their pups" crowd and for the most part will abide by that but as Rich H stated thinning and predation are different from posting hero shots just because you can.

But with the shape our economy is in, if we give the wildlife departments authority to regulate coyotes, how long till a fubearer tag will be needed as well? Especially as popular as the "sport" is these days. Put me in the anti season category. Education is the key.

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 30, 2011, 06:57 PM:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Cronk is still unable to differentiate between the killing of puppies for fun by recreational callers and the killing of puppies in the line of duty by professional ADC or anyone who assumes that role on a legitimate depredation job."
------------------------
Wrong again Higgy, but then you have made quite a habit of being wrong. I guess you believe that coyotes killed by ADC men are less dead? Please don't forget that I ain't the one who said killing wet bitches was bad.

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 30, 2011, 07:03 PM:

Cronk, I read that three times and I still don't understand what you are trying to say.
Your brain is convoluted by design, your thoughts should not be.

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 30, 2011, 07:20 PM:

Mr. Higgins,
I will type real slow, I would not want to confuse you any more than you already are. You have made it clear that you believe it is OK to kill coyotes during denning season if you are an ADC man. If you are NOT an ADC man, you believe it is down right tear jerking wrong to kill coyotes during denning season. Now when a coyote is shot by an ADC man, is it not just as dead as it would be had a recreational caller shot it? Now I am an honest man, and I respect your decision not to hunt coyotes in spring or summer. Why is it that you do not respect the recreational hunter's right to kill coyotes all year around if it is legal? This is the problem that I have with you. Anyone who disagrees with you is raked over hot coals.

Posted by CCP (Member # 913) on May 30, 2011, 07:37 PM:

How we feel about our experience has a direct effect upon what we actually experience.

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 30, 2011, 08:24 PM:

quote:
Tim, I do not know what pics you are talking about, and I will ask you politely to not speak for me.

I was'nt speaking for you but I'll delete youre name anyway.... As for the pic.s you should remember you and R.S. brought them to my attension and even made a comment about them..

Posted by Semp (Member # 3074) on May 30, 2011, 08:27 PM:

I believe that the only good coyote is a dead coyote. Big, small, wet, dry it doesn't matter to me.

I cannot eat a coyote. I can eat turkeys, deer, rabbits. The fewer coyotes the more game I can eat. Makes sense to me.

If coyotes are protected with a season, what is next? Will we protect wild hogs too? Put a season on them? I don't believe anyone wants to see that happen.

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 30, 2011, 08:29 PM:

Semp,
Cock Roaches and sewer rats would likely be next.

Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on May 30, 2011, 08:33 PM:

Hey Rich Higgins, I don't recall ever hearing or seeing your opinions and or thoughts of the continuing push for the introduction of night hunting for predators in AZ. I'm pretty sure you must have some, care to share them here?

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 30, 2011, 08:37 PM:

quote:
But with the shape our economy is in, if we give the wildlife departments authority to regulate coyotes, how long till a fubearer tag will be needed as well? Especially as popular as the "sport" is these days. Put me in the anti season category. Education is the key.

Tom lots of states have a season for coyotes/fox/cats, been that way for years and nothing has changed...

A few years back the DNR took redfox off the list and allowed hunting them year round and then a few years later put a season back on them.
Others can tell you what the numbers where like here before and after.. Since they have put a season back on them the numbers are comeing back in some areas and some areas are completely void of red fox and coyotes... Not good...

Posted by George Ackley (Member # 898) on May 30, 2011, 08:56 PM:

I hunt deer and turkey and coyotes with the same enthusiasm . I wouldn't wont to see anyone of them disappear.
I don't live in a area with big coyote depravation on live stock or wild life.
there are the uniformed her in PA that thin coyote eat up everything, well I hunt a lot ! and been doing it since 76 on the eastern part of PA and hunting today is better then ever.
If you look deep into them that complain you will find most are just unsuccessful hunters that need to place blame of having to eat a tag samitch on something other then themselves .
ADC guy do what ever you have to do to help keep that farmer or rancher running .
it may sound funny but I pray for the day you are needed here in my hunting area because maybe the day will come when coyotes will be so plentiful they are a problem and if there are enough to be a problem then maybe I can call more then hand full a year here.
I would like to see recreational hunter Not shoot wets and pups. but what i like and the law alowes
is 2 different things.

the funny thing is our pups look like most of the south west adults

Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on May 30, 2011, 08:59 PM:

Well, look at you compared to most southwestern adults. Just sayin....

Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 30, 2011, 09:15 PM:

Higgins.....look what you've started. This is why YOU should be out hunting coyotes right now. [Big Grin]

Posted by George Ackley (Member # 898) on May 30, 2011, 10:10 PM:

I knew that was coming, [Razz]

[ May 30, 2011, 10:49 PM: Message edited by: George Ackley ]

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 31, 2011, 05:52 AM:

"Tom lots of states have a season for coyotes/fox/cats, been that way for years and nothing has changed..."

Tim, I'll tell you what has changed, the economy. Now do you think for one second that all those wildlife dept employees are gonna find another job or do you think they might figure a way to pay their own salary?

Every state has seen the number of hunters declining every year. Coyote hunters are an increasing source of income. It won't take long to put 2 and 2 together.

We in okieland already have had a new "Heritage" tax put on us, "to promote the future of hunting".

Take a few years of high big game lease costs, $5.00 a gallon gas and watch the western states non resident tag income drop. Where are they gonna make up the difference?

Just saying...

[ May 31, 2011, 05:52 AM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 31, 2011, 07:38 AM:

quote:
Hey Rich Higgins, I don't recall ever hearing or seeing your opinions and or thoughts of the continuing push for the introduction of night hunting for predators in AZ. I'm pretty sure you must have some, care to share them here?

Hey Jim Arthur [Smile]

You will probably see a limited, highly regulated night calling "season" approved in Az. within the year.
It is a good first step.
You will probably want to talk to me about joining the club before it happens.

Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on May 31, 2011, 07:51 AM:

Well, that's not exactly what I was looking for, but I think you know that. Guess we can mull over the rest when we talk. Need to do that anyway, but you already know my sentiments on clubs.

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 31, 2011, 07:58 AM:

Mornin', Crank.
You are the only one who gets raked over the coals on this issue because you insist on building a bonfire under your butt with your faulty logic.
I do not insist that others adopt my code or share my opinion. I do insist that they allow me to express that opinion. You attempt to deprive me of expressing it with your hysterical tirades.
You still are unable to comprehend the difference between unnecessary recreational killing and essential professional killing.
Crank said dead is dead.
True, the end result is the same .
How they got there is entirely different.
Look at it from a cops perspective, Crank.
A person shoots and kills people randomly on the street.
SWAT arrives and shoots and kills the shooter.
I believe there is a difference in the necessity and sense of decency in those killings although the end result is the same. Even though dead is dead as you say.

Posted by Cayotaytalker (Member # 1954) on May 31, 2011, 07:59 AM:

A guy can kill coyotes here in Nevada year round.
Here in Clark County you can kill them around the clock. So every jackass with a hand gun,shot gun,rifle or what ever sort of fire arm they have on hand while there out in the desert is shooting or shooting at coyotes. Now toss in the predator callers.If you say predator caller to some one they just scratch there head,but say coyote to someone it turns out there granny,ant uncle,brother or all coyote hunters. And this is going on around the clock year in and year out with no end in site.
Well hell no wonder a guy can't find a coyote with in twenty miles of Las Vegas.
I think there might be a few guys on this site that only think they know what a skittish coyote is.
I will stick to my guns and say to each his on as far as time of year.
While I have never killed a coyote pup in my life,I have killed a few pups. That is to say I have raised a few coon hounds and had a very strict culling program.
Hey trust me knocking a few pups in the head never gave me a hard on.And if this makes me some sort of a shit eater then,well I guess.
But on the other hand perhaps some of you fucking pussy's out there should just grow up!
On the other hand the summer time is for camp outs going to the lake fishing,and for the young single guys chasing women,should be at the top of the list.

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 31, 2011, 08:16 AM:

quote:
Well, that's not exactly what I was looking for, but I think you know that.

I am asked to liaison between the members of PVCI and the Dept. I am asked for information and suggestions as a representative of the club, just as the other presidents and representatives of all the other clubs.
I suggested two years ago that the only effective way to call the coyotes in the heavily pressured fawning areas where they turn and run at the sound of a call during the day is to call them at night.
There has been a change in policy at the Dept. and you will see the results of that change. I support it and encourage it.
Plain and simple.

Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on May 31, 2011, 08:33 AM:

Correct me if I'm wrong. The change in policy within the dept of game and fish was shoved down their throats by state legislators. Although the azg&f was/is totally against it. We need to make sure we get what we want in this new opportunity and not some half assed attempt by g&f to appease us with a token.

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 31, 2011, 09:17 AM:

quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong. The change in policy within the dept of game and fish was shoved down their throats by state legislators

You are wrong.
The change is the result of the appointment of a commissioner that is a savvy sportsman rather than a nonhunting political appointee.

Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on May 31, 2011, 10:08 AM:

quote:
The change is the result of the appointment of a commissioner that is a savvy sportsman rather than a nonhunting political appointee.

+1

That's better Rich, thank you.

Since coyotes are seldom, if ever afforded much of a break in AZ due to weather, and are only a problem in certain GMUs, night time calling SHOULD be heavily regulated. As far as a statewide season, I would need to see some factual numbers in order to support the notion. My opinion is that except for newish types, heat and personal preference regulates calling enough. Numbers could change my opinion though. At this point, I am not in favor of any new regulations relieving me of the opportunity to scratch a spring/summer time itch at my OWN discression.

Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on May 31, 2011, 10:17 AM:

This is how I see it.

"PHOENIX - Arizona Sen. Frank Antenori wants you to be able to hunt varmints at night.

And he wants you to be able to stalk that prey, and more, in cities.

The Tucson Republican said he is not talking about some new form of urban hunting. Instead, his proposals, in two separate measures, are designed to deal with what he said are shortcomings in Arizona hunting laws.

First is the issue of night hunting.

Existing law limits hunting to daylight hours. HB 1335, titled "hunting at night, varmints," would create an exception for jackrabbits, raccoons and other "predatory animals."

"They're mostly nocturnal," he said. "So the likelihood of success in hunting them increases if you hunt them at night."

Antenori is particularly interested in providing new opportunities to hunt coyotes, which he said are taking their toll on deer and antelope, particularly the young ones in May, June and July.

"You do need to hunt them and keep that population sort of suppressed for that short period of time," he said.

Antenori said he doesn't want people just wandering around at night, firing into the dark.

He wants some safeguards, such as a requirement to scope out the area before it gets dark to ensure there are no occupied structures nearby. Antenori said he also believes hunters need to have some lights to be able to see their targets.

Antenori also said he does not want to allow night hunting during "big game season."

"The Game and Fish guys don't want anybody out there shooting an elk and then claiming they shot them during the daytime but using the cover if they get caught at night of saying that they were out there hunting coyotes," he said.

He acknowledged that his legislation contains nothing to preclude that from happening. Antenori said that may require amending the measure, either to put that into law or, at least, giving the state Game and Fish Commission the power to enact some regulations.

His other hunting measure, HB 1334, would take away the right of cities to ban hunting within their limits.

Antenori said he's not proposing to let hunters go shooting in urbanized areas. Instead, he said the legislation is aimed at the issue of cities incorporating vast tracts of undeveloped state-owned property into their limits.

"Land that had usually been accessible and available for hunting has been annexed by cities," he said.

For example, Antenori said, Tucson has added large tracts of land to the east out to Vail. And Peoria has annexed property on its northern edge past Lake Pleasant.

"There have not been any structural changes," Antenori said, with the property still remaining unoccupied.

But he said current law and regulations allow the police chief to determine if an incorporated area is safe to hunt and, unilaterally, ban the practice.

Antenori said nothing in either bill would overrule existing regulations and laws, which preclude hunting within one-quarter mile of an occupied structure."

www.careycustomrifleco.com

Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on May 31, 2011, 10:21 AM:

Just go out and CALL in the summer. No need to shoot, IMO. Sorta like catch and release bass fishing.

Night hunting would be fantastic if you guys could get it. And you can go buy more gadgets:)

[ May 31, 2011, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: smithers ]

Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on May 31, 2011, 10:24 AM:

That was correct but both of those bills died in committee because AZGFD said they were already looking into it and Antenori withdrew them.

It's nice to see that something may actually be happening with the night hunting, but I haven't heard of anything going on with the other.

Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on May 31, 2011, 10:28 AM:

He also said if they didn't, he would bring the bills back. They didn't die he withdrew them at F&G's request with the promise they would implement a night hunting program! I promise you the allowed night hunting will be a fiasco.

Posted by George Ackley (Member # 898) on May 31, 2011, 10:41 AM:

quote:
allowed night hunting will be a fiasco

Dan we have night hunting here in PA on all public hunting land and privet land .
But before we did have night hunting with a light for predators the concerns they Have in AZ were the same they had here .
law was passed and now we hunt nights in PA and it didn't turn into a fiasco.

I have always thought punishing the good hunter for what bad guys my do is not right .
Bad slob hunters will be bad with or without laws

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 31, 2011, 11:08 AM:

quote:
I'll tell you what has changed, the economy. Now do you think for one second that all those wildlife dept employees are gonna find another job or do you think they might figure a way to pay their own salary?

Every state has seen the number of hunters declining every year. Coyote hunters are an increasing source of income. It won't take long to put 2 and 2 together.

We in okieland already have had a new "Heritage" tax put on us, "to promote the future of hunting".

Take a few years of high big game lease costs, $5.00 a gallon gas and watch the western states non resident tag income drop. Where are they gonna make up the difference?

Tom ; I agree the economy has changed and so has the DNR in my state.. The answer is yes some will have to go look elsewhere for work. Some of our wardens reached retirement and there job positions where not filled so now we have wardens covering twice the amount of ground and fewer of them...
The DNR is just like a business if they take a cut in funding then the commissioner has to figure out a way to make due with what they got including laying personnel off...

I'm not sure if we are seeing a loss in hunters but if we are I have'nt seen any major changes made because of it..
One thing I do know is the state of Mn. no longer requires a Non-Res. to buy two hunting lic. to hunt coyotes here in the state, I think for coyotes they just need a small game lic. or nothing at all, would have to check..

As to the last question For a western state to make up for loss in lic. sales they will just increase the non-res. lic. They have done it that way for years.. Non-Res have always been the ones to foot the bill so the western states can have there big-game herds...

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 31, 2011, 11:18 AM:

Dan. Same here.. Our DNR had the same concerns thinking there would be an increase in poaching big-game. We got our nite law passed and no problems so far.. Our nite hunting with a light can only be done for two months and its done dureing mid winter when most of the deer have already dropped there big antlers..

Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on May 31, 2011, 12:15 PM:

quote:
As to the last question For a western state to make up for loss in lic. sales they will just increase the non-res. lic. They have done it that way for years.. Non-Res have always been the ones to foot the bill so the western states can have there big-game herds...

I feel the same way about this as you do with sharing your vast predator hunting knowledge Tim. Too bad! If you wanna play, you gotta pay.

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 31, 2011, 12:31 PM:

LOL Jim..
I stopped hunting big game years ago, its alot cheaper to just go over to one of the game farms and buy a little meat and use whats left over in money for hunting coyotes which by the way are still free for the takeing except for Texas and a few other places. [Smile]

Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on May 31, 2011, 12:58 PM:

Poachers are gonna poach, night hunting or no night hunting. Night hunting for predators just makes sense. If you want to take more animals, you have to be out when they are. In urban and suburban areas, that's mainly at night. We all know that. Anyone with an ounce of sanity and common sense knows this.

Spelling!!!

[ May 31, 2011, 01:00 PM: Message edited by: smithers ]

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 31, 2011, 03:55 PM:

Like him or not, Randy Buker was, to my understanding, solely responsible for getting night hunting in Minnesota and the arguments he used in swaying his legislators were what I tried to use in Kansas, to no avail.

Wardens in state that allow night hunting of predators will tell you that the poaching myth is just that - a myth. And, as a matter of fact, many of the arrests they make of deer poachers are the result of calls being made by legal, legitimate coyote hunters under the stars. Commissioners don't want to hear it. They've been sold a false bill of goods as to rhetoric and nothing - not even facts - will sway them. I went into my efforts to deliver night hunting to KS callers with a proposal to institute a season on coyotes at night from January 1 to February 28 (29), allowing for the use of artificial light from sunset to midnight and from 4 am to sunrise, where neither the caller, the shooter, the light or its power source could be attached to a motorized conveyance and that the caller and gunner had to be off public roadways and their immediate right of ways.

Despite all the research I did and corresponding with callers in states that allow night calling with AL, they couldn't get past the potential poaching issue, even though I had written comments from game wardens in CO, TX and NE refuting those myths.

I don't consider the issue dead, by any means, but for now, in KS, very few of our commissioners have any actual hands on experience as outdoorsmen and women. Most have been politically appointed as rungs on their professional ladders and they could care less about how their decisions impact the sportsmen and women of the state or the resources. All they want to do is sell access to the deer, turkeys and such and the guy with the most money to spend gets first shot, which means non-residents. The wildlife agency itself is desperately trying to protect, preserve and further the interests of those in the state who have built what we have, but they don't get listened to much these days. It's hard for the biologists to woo private landowners away from offers of free money and wealth being offered through tax breaks and entitlement programs using "agricultural tourism" dollars. Then, after a landowner has been on the state program for a couple years and managed to establish a nice network of habitat, the big dollar non-res money bags come to town, buy up the leases, and lock the gates. It is the future of hunting, whether you kill puppies or not.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 31, 2011, 04:36 PM:

quote:
with a proposal to institute a season on coyotes at night from January 1 to February 28 (29), allowing for the use of artificial light from sunset to midnight and from 4 am to sunrise, where neither the caller, the shooter, the light or its power source could be attached to a motorized conveyance and that the caller and gunner had to be off public roadways and their immediate right of ways.

Lance, why in the hell would you suggest restrictions like that? Sounds like something a control freak would dream up? None of that stuff is justified.

gh/lb

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 31, 2011, 04:42 PM:

Thats pretty much what our rules say with the eception that we can use the light all night long.. Could be improved on but you have to start somewhere.

Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on May 31, 2011, 05:09 PM:

That's pretty much what I don't want the rules in AZ to say. We'll see what they come up with, if its not suitable, we still have our law makers to fall back on.

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 31, 2011, 05:14 PM:

That is actually my end point. I began the effort going for broke, all year long, no restrictions, but with a few exceptions, most states don't allow that. What you see there is after a few fallback positions, always prepared to come back with a new offer, if you will. What that is, is also a hybrid of what the various states I studied had -the best of all worlds. Don't forget that I'm dealing with a Commission who - after a dog was caught in a 220 conibear, set perfectly legal, as the result of a dumbass out walking his dog off leash in a leashes only area - considered the Draconian act of outlawing all conibears on public ground, regardless of the fact that the reason they are there is because THEY asked the Kansas Fur Harvesters Association to encourage their members to trap predators on public hunting ground after upland game seasons closed in an effort to control predator numbers leading into nesting season. These people see no gray area - it is black as hell or white as snow. It either is, or it isn't. if you're going to go in front of them, you always come in with your first request, and when they counter that with something stupid, you counter with something that appears to appease their ignorance, and back and forth you go until you (hopefully) end up with a solution that leaves them thinking they did their job better than ever before, and you have a workable provision for your people. One thing is for sure - they aren't going to just pat you on the back for a great idea and give you everything you want, especially when it involves killing stuff because they are completely beyond recalling that they are, in fact, in charge of the Dept. of Killing Stuff for Fun.

Posted by George Ackley (Member # 898) on May 31, 2011, 05:18 PM:

quote:
with a proposal to institute a season on coyotes at night from January 1 to February 28 (29), allowing for the use of artificial light from sunset to midnight and from 4 am to sunrise, where neither the caller, the shooter, the light or its power source could be attached to a motorized conveyance and that the caller and gunner had to be off public roadways and their immediate right of ways.

thats some funny shit right there [Big Grin]

PS
i am cool with it if you add

you may only bring a lunch for night hunting on Tuesday and every other Thursday ,

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 31, 2011, 05:19 PM:

Actually, Dan, in Kansas, most laws involving coyotes are just that, laws, established statutorily by the legislature, as opposed to regulations set by the W&P Commission. When you can hunt them is, in fact, one of the few things coyote-related that the Commissioners address. At least, that's my understanding. My next push may very well involve working with my State Representative, but only after I schmooze the Kansas Livestock Ass'n, the Kansas Wool Grower's Association and other agricultural groups. There are other things that need to happen before I can make that push, though.

May be funny, George, but multiple attempts to institute a night hunting provision for coyotes in Kansas have failed, and those efforts have used a number of different approaches in the past. To actually make this happen will be a major coup, and right now, few, if any, of the other sporting roups in Kansas even support the effort. I look at it like trying to give up cigarettes. I'll probably have to make 5 or 6 good runs at it before I see appreciable results. That is, to me, a realistic position at this point in the game.

[ May 31, 2011, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]

Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on May 31, 2011, 05:23 PM:

I want 24/7/365 access to night hunting from a vehicle. Now, I just might settle for a little less. I figure the AZ G&F don't want to give much, so we should ask for the sky and not be willing to compromise much or we will settle for what they are willing to give up. They cut a deal because they didn't want to have to work within a new law that would limit their power to make the rules. They don't want night hunting in AZ and they will try their best to limit it to the point that it will not be worthwhile to even hunting at night. I have seen them in action and they are a sorry bunch of bureaucrats!!

Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on May 31, 2011, 05:57 PM:

Arizona Game and Fish makes every effort to keep the general public in the dark about what will be discussed at a scheduled meeting. They do tell you when a meeting (well at least the scheduled ones) are going to take place. If I wanted to know when the night hunt discussion came about I couldn't find out until after it had taken place. I have zero faith in any justice from them.

http://www.azgfd.gov/inside_azgfd/meeting_schedule.shtml

"The Game and Fish Commission is comprised of five members (serving staggered five-year terms) appointed by the Governor and confirmed by the Senate. No more than one commissioner may be from any one county. No more than three may be from the same political party."

How corrupt is that. Political favors at its best!

Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 31, 2011, 06:08 PM:

quote:
I want 24/7/365 access to night hunting from a vehicle

Sounds like fun.

We can only night hunt from Jan 1 thru March 15, by permit only, and hunting from vehicles is not permitted.

Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on May 31, 2011, 06:39 PM:

You are getting old and lazy, Dan.

Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on May 31, 2011, 07:28 PM:

Yes I am and also cranky.

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 31, 2011, 07:29 PM:

Yeah Dan, and at your advanced age, you're prolly asleep by, what,.. 6?

Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on May 31, 2011, 07:37 PM:

[Big Grin]

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